I bought my first muzzleloader yesterday and I'm looking for some tips and advice for loads and some equipment recommendations. I went into the store knowing very little about muzzleloading so I basicly just bought whatever the store owner recommended. I bought a CVA optima v2, the cva blackhorn breech plug, Blackhorn 209 powder, a volume power measure, winchester 209 primers, and powerbelt aero tip 295gr bullets. I did a little research last night and I saw the reviews on the gun and powder were mostly very favorable but the powerbelt reviews are all over the place. What are your thoughts on powerbelts? I see the hornady 250 and 300 SST's seem to get great reviews. Would the sst's be a better option if so what weight do you recommend? What other equipment do you recommend I get? Thanks.

I can't like PB bullets and won't buy them. They do nothing a lead conical won't do, except load easier because of the thin plating and cost more money. Other than that, they are nothing more than a dressed up lead conical, with zero performance gain.

I do not feel they form a very good/consistent gas seal. And this will vary from barrel to barrel, expecially on the cheaper muzzleloaders IMO. If you take the base off, guess what? They fly the same. We did it. I would even venture to say they would expand the same without the tip, but never tried it.

I use saboted 250gr Barnes now...

SST's are like powerbelts, you either love them for hate them. They are known to either flat out explode or not expand at all.

The 300gr Powerbelt Aerolite is a hell of a bullet. My dad used one this year on his medium size doe at 30 yards this past September and she didnt go but 10-15 yards after the shot with a lung shot that did in fact exit. Along the way the bullet broke multiple ribs on the exit side and they added 3 extra exit holes as you can see. 100 grains Blackhorn209.

i ude hornady xtp and barnes in my 45

Medium sized? I'd hate to see what small looks like in your part of the woods.........

I have to disagree about the bullet comment. A PB that does not expand would be rare. What it would do is expand easily at nearly any range/velocity out of a ML IMO. What it will not do is penetrate deeply.....

I've the "reports" about SSTs exploding but I really question whether it's more hype than reality. I'm not saying it can't happen, bullets can do strange things inside an animal, but in most cases of bullet failure the bullets are recovered inside a dead animal. It seems as though you can read 20 plus reports of no problems to one where someone had an issue. It seems to be a rare occurrence where an SST "exploded".


Whether or not they reliably expand is a different story and I don't believe it's a big issue. A 250 gr .45 cal bullet that passes through an animal, IMHO, doesn't need to expand to be lethal. If you're shooting a .243 that expands to .45 that's good expansion and a definite plus.

FWIW, SSTs and shockwaves are interlock bullets. I asked a Hornady rep about this.

If you're going to hunt now, I wouldn't sweat it. My son killed two nice bucks in one week using 295gr. PBs over 90gr. of some powder or other in my Renegade. Big holes, dead deer.

PBs get a lot of grief, but they load easy, shoot okay, and certainly will kill deer.

You can fiddle with stuff next year.

Try them buy them get some SST try them an u make up your mine .I try them all an shoot them an 200 grain 44 Bullets Green Sabot works great in mine 50"s

I didn't get much time to shoot today but I was able to get the rifle roughly sighted in at 100 yards. I was using 100gr by volume of bh 209 and the 295gr powerbelts. I'm hoping to find time tomorrow to shoot some 3 shot groups and fine tune the scope. The season opens in two weeks so if the powerbelts shoot well I'll probably give them a try this season.

An SST was made for hand gun. I use the 250 grain .452 in my .50 cal with great results shooting 120 grains BH209 by volume and MMP HPH/12. The gun is a CVA Elkhorn Pro which has a .503 bore which is larger than most. I haven't read about the SST ever "exploding" but I do know about one that pin holed backed with 100 grains of Pyrodex in the neck of a mule deer.

If anything is going to "explode" from pushing it too hard it's going to be lead, not a jacketed pistol bullet. Last I talked with Hornady this is one the reason they came up with the "Monoflex ML" muzzle loading bullet, as well as green states. Solid copper with low and high expansion rates. My gun doesn't use their sabots though. http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-Sabot-Low-Drag-with-45-Cal-250-MFX-Bullet/

Which handgun would that be? The 450 Bushmaster? That is what the 250gr SST/FTX was designed to be shot in.

http://www.hornady.com/store/450-Bushmaster-250-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/




Test Barrel (20") Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
2200/2686

Maybe you should look at the cross section pics on the web and compare them to a XTP. The 250gr and 300gr SST have quite a bit thicker jackets than a NON MAG XTP.

LOL.....How about the 460 S&W for one or the Colt. Both made in the 1870's, last I heard that was before AR platforms were constructed.

Non-expansion is the problem, not bullet explosion on the SST.

FTX is a rifle bullet formulated with a different tip, the SST is originally a pistol bullet. Of course the SST has a thicker jacket made for higher velocities, that is why Hornady went to the new Monoflex instead. Too many hunters were complaining because they weren't made for ML in the first place.

The SST's were designed to open at a higher velocities then the average ML is going to deliver under regular loads. Even if you are using 120 grains of BH209 you still going to get what, 2120 FPS? Your barely coming close to what the SST was designed for. Again, I have heard more issues with SST's not opening then I've ever heard of MAGs having any problem.

The SST ML is nothing but a SST without the cannelure, they just call it a ML bullet. Whether they get better performance using a non cannelured bullet in a AR platform, well who knows.....Guess that will be for the end consumer to figure out.

The fact of the matter as most bullets that we use they are made for hand guns or rifles, NOT for muzzle loading. The MAG is a better option because of the thinner jacket. Last I heard was able to expand down to 800/1600 fps.

The problem here is if you push the MAG past 1600 fps which magnum loads do then what???? Hornady decided to take on 3 main issues; (1.)traditional FPS (2.) Magnum FPS, (3.) green state regs. The result? This is where the new Monoflex ML is supposed to shine.

SSTs were not made for handguns..........

460S&W clocked over 2100fps It was designed in 2005.

454Casull will send a 240gr down range at a good 1900fps. It was designed in 1958.

The 240gr XTP MAG has an even thicker jacket than a 250 or 300gr SST. According to Hornady it is made for upto 2100fps.



BTW there are plenty of FTXs made for pistol calibers. 45Colt, 357mag and 500S&W to name few.

I agree that an SST is not a pistol bullet and not to be picky but which came first?

The SST-ML bullet that's used in the 450 Bushmaster or the SST/FTX?

The SST is NOT a handgun bullet. Not now, nor was it EVER......

I guess you did not read the link and the 450B does not use or need a cannelure either. Ive bought both the 250gr FTX and 250gr SST in bulk. Neither one had a cannelure. Hornady does not list any other .452 250gr SSTs or FTXs. There are just two.

2muchgun<---- Really???? The .452 SST was a pistol bullet well before it was a ML bullet. And the FTX has a larger bearing surface and harder tip for lever action guns which are what??? Oh yea, rifles.

Awe yes, the XTP and XTP Mag; You are correct the MAG has a thicker jacket over the regular XTP, but the SST still is designed to open at 2200 fps whereas the MAG is designed to open at 1100 fps. These are still two completely different bullets for different ranges.

But last I heard ^^^^ up there we were talking about the "SST exploding" which is false. Now maybe the XTP but not the SST.

Wrong. That's the maximum muzzle velocity not the minimum velocity required for expansion.

If you doubt me call Hornady and ask them what the velocity parameters are for an SST.

250gr T/C Shockwave which is basically a FTX/SST with a hard tip.

2150fps+ MV 50 yard impact


250gr XTP same media and MV


While this may not be typical the test media and MV were nearly identical.

Really? Then why is it not listed under such on the website?

Why do I have 3 Hornady reloading manuals here with said bullet not listed in a single pistol load?

Why is it ONLY listed under muzzleloader loads in manuals and on website?

Why are NO SSTs of ANY kind listed under "handgun" in anything?

Show me some loaded pistol ammunition with that bullet....

Do you have a pic of an expanded SST?

Or was it similar to the XTP?

Because he is confusing the FTX lineup with the SSTs. At one time the .452 250gr and 300gr SST did have a hard tip. In roughly 2009-2010 that changed and now as far as i can tell the Shockwave still uses it. The 200gr FTX for 460S&W has a more pointy tip than the 225gr FTX or the 250gr FTX and feels harder to me. The 200gr may be old stock though, i bought them a while ago.

Call Hornady..i did.

Yes, he's definitely confused.

No need to call Hornady to prove what I already know

Just a guess here but ...

Maybe Hornady changed to a soft flex tip with a tube fed lever action in mind.

A SST ML bullet, first, that was adapted to a lever action.

No I read it, and I know it stated that they don't use a cannelure on the SST .452 Bushmaster.

As for the FTX, well I didn't bother reading it.

The fact of the matter is the .452 SST and .452 SST ML "is the same bullet"! I never once said it did have a cannelure for the Bushmaster. The only ACTUAL difference between the SST ML and the SST both in .452 is a cannelure, there the exact same bullet directly from the Hornady techs mouth. Both .452 SST's open the same at the same velocity and perform the same, that's because they are the same. Again the only difference is a "cannelure"!

I don't even understand why you seem to think I'm against you other than maybe you think the SST's are different which they are not in composition of the .452.

fishhead<--- Yes I stand corrected, Hornady tech just confirmed this; .452 velocities: 1300-2200. Still the bullets not expanding have been an issue. I still use them however.
http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-Sabot-Low-Drag-with-45-Cal-250-SST-Bullet/

The Shockwave is a SST with a different color tip, here I'm comparing them:

Not sure why you brought the FTX into this, as I never even mentioned them.

But, they are designed for handguns and leverguns.

Please feel free to tell me why they would use a HARDER tip for use in a tubular lever gun magazine....Once again, you are confused...

I'm not confusing them, they may have changed them....That I do not know.

Just like when the Shockwave had a boat tail that they don't have anymore either I guess?

Point of the matter is the FTX has a different tip than the SST. What "at this point in time" they have changed is obviously something because now they are stating the SST ML is cabable of lower velocity expansions. SO obviously they have changed something between when I was using them until now.

If you knew that they changed it why the He!! didn't you say something sooner instead of keeping that info to yourself and stop wasting my time????

Typo, I meant softer smarty pants.


And I didn't bring the FTX into it, read again ^^^^

I have the last 3 manuals. Nothing has changed in that NO SST is listed for handguns in ANY way, and that the FTX NEVER had a HARDER tip.....

You DID bring the FTX into it, with me anyway. I never said a thing about them. Next you are telling me of their "harder tips"....

Please post a pic of a .452 250gr SST or FTX with a cannelure. Even the cross section pics ive seen show none. The ones ive bought have none.

There are only 2 listed on Hornady's website.

250gr FTX for Bushmaster
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-250-gr-FTX-for-450-Bushmaster/

250gr SST for ML
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-250-gr-SST-ML/

There is no SST listed for .452 handgun
http://www.hornady.com/store/.452-45-CAL

Yes and please address these qustions as well......

Already said I meant softer. ^^^ Even if so it makes no difference. It was still designed for other than ML in the first place right from Hornady. Back a few years ago that was the up to date info that I stated, now who knows unless you call them every chance you get. You can still get the SST in ammunition for rifles.

I guess you don't get it.

IT IS IN THE MANUALS. FROM DAY ONE OF IT'S INCEPTION. NOTHING HAS CHANGED.....

I never claimed the FTX had a cannelure, in fact I don't even know where you picked that idea up?

They used to have it listed, they were available in bulk but they pulled them now, even ordered some???.....I have no idea anymore.

Regardless can we get back on topic and stop the picking??? We were talking about the SST exploding not any of this other crap.

No $hit you can still get the SST ammo for rifles!

That is ALL you could EVER get it for. They started loading SSTs in the faster 500 and 460 when they came out. But not same bullets as the ML bullets you describe, and they now say FTX on them. No SST handgun loads in manuals either. They only reference the FTXs in the 460 and 500...

Are you sure about that?

An argument and the powerbelt is not involved? Oh my!

No you claimed the .452 SST did and that is incorrect. Please post a pic. I gave you the option of providing a pic of either which it appears you cant....Notice i used the word "OR" in my request.

Here is a pic of the ORIGINAL PTX and SST side by side. The PTX was the very first Hornady tipped ML bullet.



The SST in the pic is a original SST with the old hard pointy tip. Those are the ones that got the bad rap for NOT expanding. The PTX had the same rap too.

This is a newer SST and Shockwaves for comparison to a .458 FTX on the far right. Ignore the black tip Parker BE.


The tips are similar except the blue bonded Shockwave which retained the old style SST tip.

They never had a boattail either, please post a pic of a .452 SST boattail. Some had a larger radius than others but NEVER a boattail in the .452 SST or ML lineup.

The point im making is there were some changes over the years, just not the changes you are claiming. The change was mainly in the tip construction and possibly the alloy. There was even a harder plastic tip that was harder than the current SST but looked the same. Ive heard T/C uses this tip on the regular Shockwave but i can not confirm it.

All this confusion is why some say they dont expand and others claim they over expand. There are obviously other variables to consider such as MV and speed at impact.

I am about done with this thread, but if you want to see a .452 SST with a cannelure just look at the 460 S&W load they had for a blink of an eye. Which I referenced earier.

But as not to further confuse anyone, it is NOT the same bullet as originally referenced.......

Yes, the .452 200gr FTX and 225gr FTX both have cannelures but they are FTXs not SSTs according to Hornadys website.

Scroll down this thread to see a cross section of two FTXs and the 250gr SST.
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/395344-hornady-sst-vs-tc-shockwave.html

You guys are killing me right now

I'm out............

Thanks for posting the pics. I've never seen those before.

And Hornady calls it a FTX here
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-.452-200-gr-FTX/



And here with the same ammo part number 9152
http://www.hornady.com/store/460-SW-200-gr-FTX/






So now what? My two Hornady links beat your one link

FTX flex tip for use in a lever and SST-ML for use in a muzzleloader ... both with the same red soft tip.

The current 250 gr SSTs I've got have the soft red tip but I have some older 250 gr Shockwaves that have a harder yellow tip.


FWIW, I found a red SST tip on the ground in front of a cardboard target.

I have heard several people make this same observation. Somewhere along the line, things changed and possibly not even at the same time for Hornady vs T/C.

Were the Shockwave tips more pointed too or just harder than the current SST?

The ballstics gel pics i posted were from 2007. This is the before pics from that range session

This has got me thinking. I wonder if the old hard tips were the cause behind the reports of SSTs "exploding".

To put in perspective there's two reasons for putting a "plastic" tip on a bullet. First is to increase the BC and second is to initiate expansion.

Could it be the old tips had erratic expansion?

You could throw away all the notions that they don't expand and especially when a bullet isn't recovered on a complete pass through.

I'm just jabbering and trying make sense of the "reports".

BINGO!!!

Here is the link to that entire ballistics gel thread. Im not sure if you can view it without joining MM.

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6450

At this time i dont have the answer as to which style is more prone to fragging. I have an opinion but very little data to back up my opinion. I dont use SSTs or FTXs for hunting anymore but i find them wonderfully accurate in my rifles.

I have the two bullets in hand. The shape is identical but the materials are different. I can dig my fingernail into the red tip (soft/flexy) but not in the yellow tip.

Thank you for checking. That is the same as ive heard. Notice the pic i posted has a pointy yellow tip Shockwave. Those are/were hard too. The bonded SW next to it were also hard and might still be hard. Ive seen them with two different shapes also.

It appears we have part of the answer as to why there are such extreme differences in field results.

Unlike you guys that sit on your a$$, I actually have to work for a living. I can't just sit on here all day awaiting your answers and post up things in the given time while your reloading the page every 30 seconds.

Here's a picture of the boat tail, not to mention I've shot it. If you look at the bullets in the case you can clearly see them, however the flat base sits on top, anyway:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...e-sabots-50-cal-250-gr-30-rds?a=1593990#

As for the cannelure, I must be thinking of a different projectile. But I do remember asking Hornady about it.

bigblock455<--- Don't worry, we haven't even started on the beloved Powerbelts yet.....LOL

Here's another thing I just noticed. The grooves at the end of the SST are slighty deeper and more pronounced. I can see the red tip through the grooves. With yellow tips I can't see the tip and the grooves are not spread apart.

This is so slight it might be a manufacturing discrepancy/tolerance but maybe not.

Some of us have such good jobs we get many days off during the holiday season. Ive got over a month worth of holiday/sick days to use up before next year begins. I didnt use a single sick day all this year.

Very interesting the top bullet would be a flat base and all the rest in the box would be BTs. I wish i could read the T/C part number.

They called them 2 different things because they were. 2 labels designating 2 different bullets.

Part numbers are same because the 200gr SST is no longer loaded. The 200gr FTX has taken it's place, and it's part number.....

Yes and I have already logged more work hours this year than most ever will.....

I also have some Barnes 250s that have a blue pointy hard tip.



FWIW, from the Sportman's guide ...

Thompson / Center Arms� Shock Wave Sabot.

The Shock Wave Sabot is a new spire point Bullet. It has a polymer tip specifically designed as a muzzleloading sabot Bullet, and is not just a conventional pistol bullet converted to a muzzleloading projectile.

Wonder why they make no mention of the boat tail?

Yes, now im quite curious especially since Hydrashocker says he has shot them. They remind me of a Barnes TMZ shape kinda but the sabots look like flat base sabots too. Rather hard to tell in the pic though.

Hard to say.


I say just buy some Barnes and fuggedaboudit..........

Ya, well ain't logging in any hours sittin on your butt. I log enough miles and time. Of course if you had a better job you wouldn't loose your sick leave. In fact I get damn near 2 months off.....ha......Oh look I said it all in one post instead of 3.

Back to the point. Are you saying T/C is using the FTX in their 250 shockwave, and Hornady is using the FTX in it's 250's as well? Then what are they using in their bonded 250 shockwave then????

At first I thought I was nuts because I went through 2 packs of them, then I went back to buy more from a different location and they were flat based. In fact I even tried to use the Spit-Fire bases with them and matched them up considering the Barns factory was close to me and I could buy them in bulk. Anyway, long story short I've seen about 5 or 6 different sabots that they've played around with. I've even opened packages and found different sabots for the same bullets and part numbers that should have came on the same lot.

Oh i don't looe it, i just get paid for them on my last check of the year. The paid days off just don't roll over from year to year. They did at one time but upper management felt some people were abusing it.

What i am saying is Hornady makes the bullets for T/C to their specs. Thats no secret. What changes in Hornady's lineup is not always reflected in T/Cs lineup. UNLESS a product is no longer available to Hornady. Then it would effect T/C as well.

The bonded Shockwave is a T/C exclusive made by Hornady ONLY for T/C. Hornady sells the SST to other vendors as well such as Tradition's Smackdowns and UF's Whitetail Medicine bullets. Rumor is that the UF bullet is made to UF specs also and its a harder alloy.

I am also saying i can find no proof there is any difference between the .452 250gr FTX and 250gr SST. I have bulk boxes of both and they appear identical. I dont have a lead hardness tester so i can't be 100% sure but cross sectioned bullets look the same. I also see no noticeable difference in POI or accuracy.

Yes it's no secret.

Have you checked the diameter as the FTX is supposed to have a longer bearing surface which to me correlates to overall length/ or measurement at the shoulder?

It was my understanding that the only difference was the tip. The SST tip was hard enough that it could set of a primer (or so they thought) so they went to a softer tip but used the same SST bullet. Then again they could swap a tip if they were short that production day and nobody would be the wiser.

Hornady's FTX (red soft tip) is trademarked and registered and is exclusive Hornady technology. Look at the FTX box posted earlier in the thread.

I don't believe Hornady is making ML bullets for TC with soft tips because of this.

I called Hornady to find out about the differences between a FTX and an SST (250 gr) and the rep said they were identical. I would assume that Hornady is using the same tip in both just to simplify production.

Does this make sense?

Yes it does

Here's something else I've been thinking about. The rumor that SSTs don't expand.

The deer I've double lunged with an SST had a complete pass through with just a slightly larger hole on the offside. This is very different from an animal shot with a CF where you expect to see a big hole on the offside.

Here's the deal.

A high velocity CF shooting cup and core bullets will make a mess and especially if it's a magnum. You expect to see a big hole on the offside. There's the old adage if you want to reduce meat damage go with a heavy for caliber bullet at modest velocities.

A ML shoots heavy bullets at modest velocities.

I can only guess but not seeing the meat damage/big hole might lead someone to believe the bullet didn't expand even though the deer is dead with two holes in it.

Sound reasonable?

You should have asked him why, if they are identical, one costs $5 more for a box of 50 than the other............

Yes ive checked them with a micrometer but not lately. Hornady listed the BC as the same. Any ogive, length difference or change should reflect a difference in BC if Hornady is being honest.

They shoot to the same for me upto 2250fps and 200 yards. I never really tested them much more than that once i changed to shooting mostly smokeless and sabotless in the 45. I just shoot them for fun now. They ring the gong and make water jugs disappear.

I looked into it to try and figure out if I could some $$$ by buying bullets and sabots in bulk. The shipping cost on each killed that idea though. It's about the same cost to just buy Hornady SST HSLDs with the red sabot included in the box.

I believe that they are indeed the same bullet. Both being FTXs and neither being a real SST. It is all in the marketing.....

Yikes! What happened to this thread? Anyway, I got to the range today and shot a few groups. WOW, this thing shoots accurate! I used 110gr bh209, winchester 209 primer and 295gr powerbelt aero tip. My first and best three shot group went .32" @ 100 yards. I shot five three shot groups and the avg was .66". I had an interesting thing happen though. Like many have suggested I didn't clean the barrel between shots but I did give it time to cool. My groups remained tight but the point of impact slowly shifted up and to the right the more I shot. Before shooting the last group I thoroughly cleaned the barrel and that group landed about where the first one did. I don't know how this bullet will perform on game but it performed well in the accuracy category.

It's all your fault. You didn't maintain control.


Good shootin' and good luck huntin'.

It is now a ball of yarn.....

Make sure you clean your breech plugs flash channel. Allowing it to foul up with carbon will KILL accuracy with as little as 20-25 shots through it.

I was just pass'in through...

killed a 7pt at 100yds and a doe about 75yds 3 weeks ago with 100grns of blackhorn and the 295 powerbelt. complete pass thru on both shots. gota know how to make a powerbelt penetrate,right bigblock.

I hear if you wipe a booger on the tip, it helps them penetrate.

yep,thats what i been using

Question: If they are the same then how can you be so sure that in fact it's a FTX and not an SST?

When I look at the cut away view of the bullets (not even the same size of course) but it almost appears that just above the shoulder the jacket slightly narrows on the FTX. I'm thinking just maybe they add that minuscule to the bearing surface creating just a oh so very slight lengthened bearing surface that they claim is the difference of the FTX bullet. In other words take some from the top and add it to the sides?

Thinner jacket on the nose would help expand it on impact.

This was my best 3 shot group at 100 yards with powerbelt aero tip 295gr and 110gr of bh209. My other groups weren't much bigger. Accuracy is outstanding with the powerbelts but I like to tinker so I got some 300gr sst's today. I'm hoping to shoot them this weekend. A few of the spots I like to hunt could present a shot near 200 yards and the bc of the sst a lot better. I hope they shoot well.

man you are really pushing past the limits of that 295'er. Stick with a lung shot and it will go down. Stay away from heavy bone. You'll learn over time that lighter pure lead bullets with hollow points are sensitive to high velocity.

That's why I'm looking into the sst's. The bullet looks a lot like the ftx that I shoot out of my 450 marlin. The 325gr ftx has been pure devistation on deer at close and med range and I hope the 300gr sst wil do the same.

Buy some Harvester .458/.50 sabots (orange?) and you can shoot those 325gr FTXs outa your ML

I shot the 300gr sst's today. They weren't as accurate as the powerbelts but still plenty accurate for the intended use. Most groups went 1" - 1.5" at 100 but I did have two unexpected fliers. I shot two groups where two bullets would land together and one would go 3" to 4" away. I don't know what that was all about. Any ideas? There was a guy at the range who said that he had better luck using harvester crush rib sabots with sst's. Maybe I'll give them a try.

I'll have to look into that. I have 300 of the 325 ftx's sitting around. Thanks for the info.

Harvester does not make a 50x458 sabot. MMP makes a 50x458 sabot that is orange.

Some bores are large enough a Harvester black crushrib will work with a .458 bullet. Its tight but.......

please send all of those 295PB'S that you are not going to shoot to me here in virginia. we'll find a use for them.

Fishing weights?

When I bought my T/C Impact, I tried Powerbelts, but I wasn't happy with their performance in that rifle. I don't think that the Powerbelts made as good a seal in the barrel as the MMP sabots that I now use. The sabot bullets are harder to get started in the bore, but perform well when fired.

we found a really strange use for them about 10yrs ago. we kill the hell out of deer with them. our group has killed over 400 animals with them.

I got my first muzzleloader deer yesterday. I shot a good size doe at about 110 yards. The 300gr sst entered just behind the left front shoulder and exited just in front of the right shoulder. She made it about 30 yards before she expired. The bullet made a 45 caliber entry hole and a slightly larger exit. Not that I needed one but the blood trail was ok and should not have been too hard to follow. I think I'm hooked.

Must be a big group? How many fish has your group killed with them?

They must have blown up......