I wanted to try some big nasty recoil conicals today and so I started off first with Triple 7 3fg and my home cast 370gr Maxi balls at 50 yards.

Shots 1 and 2 went awesome.. Every damn shot after that was a hang fire. I have Tresco nipple on my sidelock and it just does not handle Triple 7 well at all. Its weird.. I consistently only get 2 shots before it starts hang firing. You can push a wire through the nipple hole and it will still hang fire.

Switched over 90gr Black MZ, Zero hang fires and what surprised me most, was the accuracy. I'm not looking for sniper accuracy, 75 yards in my area would be a long shot on elk in the thick timber, so this group really surprised me as I did not expect the MZ to shoot this well with these conicals.

Excuse the messy target, I hate wasting them. The Black MZ also shot center. I'd imagine with the large conical and this load I would be around 7 to 9 inches low at 100 yards. Maybe tomorrow I can test at 75 yards and see how things go.

Shots 2-5 are easily within 1 1/2" or less. And yes, my damn neck/shoulder are sore after them loads.

I couldn't hit my a ss using that friggin target!!

why not? its a 3" orange bulls eye. Pretty easy to see for me. I've used that same target out to 200 yards with open sights.

I use the Alliant a lot . Mostly cause it is 28 bucks and I can find it almost anywhere. I never had problem with it but I think BH 209 gives me better groups, although , that aint saying much. I'm still on the hunt for a muzzleloader that I can shoot without spending more money to find a good load than what I payed for the gun. Still looking at the Davide Pedersoli and the Traditions .

I love the stuff i just cant find anymore. I read it was discontinued. Id much rather shoot it than pyrodex

Untitled by .com/photos/61286670@N08/]Sharps Man, on [bleep]

I can see a gnat's ass from 200 yards but the overall target is too friggin big! The volume of 'black' is such that it would have a tendency to make it difficult for a shooter to use a 6 o/clock hold if that's what was accustomed to being utilized!

Not at all! That's why I love these targets. Actually, thats a 12" target, I normally use the 17.25" target that is a spitting image. The huge black area high lights the orange and allows your eye to settle in and focus on the orange. Even with my bulkier round front sight on a hawken, it does the job perfectly. With the german silver blade sights, its like a lollipop.

How much of that T7 you loading under the Maxi-Ball?

sorry, i completely forgot to put that. 80gr 3fg T7

My first experience with a ML was a TC Renegade kit build. Friend of mine had a Hawken and said he used 90 gr of 2f with the Maxi. Was my start and finish for load testing with that one. Patched RB used 50 gr. Both would group 1 to 1-1/2" for 5 at 50 yds without wiping. I NEVER had a hangfire with that gun. The rifle didn't fit well and was rather rude to my cheek. A laced butt pad fixed that and I enjoyed the gun a lot.

Later on with a different gun I tried a few of the BP substitutes and decided their best use was a mystery to me. Tossed it and never looked back.

Fella wants a load that thumps a bit put 150 gr of black under 800 grains of lead.

Ive been wanting to try that powder but can’t find it anywhere. Tired of paying BH209 prices.

keep [aying bh209 prices. Black MZ doesnt come close to comparing to BH209.

You and me both. I just spend 42 bucks on BH209 and it has a noticeable split second delayed fire in it. It is a click boom but none the less a click boom and I dont like it. It comes to 67.20 a lb for the Blackhorn 209. I got just as good of accuracy with Alliance stuff for 29 buds a lb. I wish someone would give Blackhorn 209 some competition. .

Sportsman's Warehouse shows at least 50 in stock. $9.99/lb. plus $20 hazard fee plus free shipping over $49.
Can't beat that deal.

Hmm...that’s where I saw it first, more than a year ago. Every time I’ve been back they haven’t had any. Just might have to order some or ship to store.

I used Allaince today for 4 shots and was 2.5" @ 50 yds off a bench with open sights. I clean the bore every shot however. My load is 80 gr. 240 gr Remington pistol bullet ( .429) and a green sabot. This has been my best load but dont care for a pistol bullet in a muzzleloader however. It may be the green Hornady sabot too, I am not sure.

I'm with you on pyrodex. I poured 2-lbs in a pile and burned it. Stuff is very corrosive.

Its only corrosive if not cleaned. I've used pyrodex for years and years with no rotten gun barrels. Half as sed cleaning only gets one so far.

I found a bunch of Blue MZ pellets on clearance sale at Wally World back in late Jan. for 5 dollars per 24 pack. I bought all they had, which was 15 packs I believe. While I'm not crazy about pellets I couldn't pass the deal. They shoot really well. The only caveat with them and the "hot" 209's is, the bore fouls to the point of not being able to load after 3 shots. Of course, swabbing the bore get's it back to loading. I would think that some of the "cooler" burning 209's that were designed for muzzle loaders would help mitigate the bore fouling somewhat.

I also found 4 bottles of BH209 for 15 dollars per.. Bought all 4..All I can say about this "stuff"....AWESOME!! This BH209 loads as easy on the 20th shot as it does the first and 90 grs, (volume) and a .45 cal Harvester Short Black sabot and a 300gr XTP, non-mag, is a tack driver.

the b lue mz pellets are nothing more than dyed IMR Whitehots. But for 5 bucks a pack, well worth it.

Alliant surprised me today too. I was shooting BH 209 and got a 5" group with my REM. 240 gr. 44 mag bullets using Hornady sabots. I had split second delay fires with the 209 using CCI 209 magnums primers. I also got a 7" group with 209 using my 340 gr. cast bullets with Harvester sabots . My last 3 shots were very tight 2" group with the .44 mag bullets , green Hrnady sabots and the Alliant powder. I get the best groups from Alliant but sure BH209 would be better without the hang fire and I dont know why I get so many hang fires with 209. I do clean the barrel every shot with the Alliant however. This Encore sure seems to like the lighter bullets. I might go get 100 200 gr. 44 cal. bullets from Acme and see if it helps, but I am not sure I can improve 2" with open sights. Why does my BH209 have a delay fire?

Common problem is a carbon clogged breech plug channell. Hand turn a 5/32" bit down it.

5/32" is way to huge for a TC. It will use a 1/8" drill bit. Also you need to use correct primers, Winchester W209, Federal 209A, CCI Magnum.

T/C flash channel is 1/8". Only the newer Knight and Savage plugs are 5/32". The T/C Omega and Impact plugs are very good BH209 plugs. If you are having delays, its not the plugs fault.

My bad. Never fired my Omega enough to plug it up before I sold it. Gotta admit though, if ya ran a 5/32" down it, it'd be clean!

Ok, things are getting better! I shot several 3 shot groups with my 50 Cal. Encore with open sights at 50 yds off a bench with just some 2x4 blocks. I have been getting 2" 3 shot groups consistently. I could not get this gun to groups. I tried so many combinations too. The only thing that works so far is Alliant with a 44 cal. Rem 240gr. pistol bullet and Hornady sabots. Anything else is a 5-6+" group @ 50 yds. This barrel with 1/28" just does not like 50 cal. conicals or heavy bullets . It does not seem to even like the .451 Hornady XTP bullets or my home made 340 gr cast bullets. The only thing I can think of is I am swiping the barrel down after every 10 shots or so with Acetone. I clean the barrel after every shot when using Alliant. A gun smith in town told em is is likely plastic build up. I think I can go on to other bullets and combinations now that I have a proven load that I can rely on for deer. However, I dont care much for the Rem. 44 ( .429) pistol bullet . Also, I am looking into new fiber optic sights. The ones on hardly glow at all and the from fiber optic sight is half broken. This should improve accuracy even further with a peep sight on the back. Does anyone use Acetone to clean the barrel of plastic. Also, again, a gun shop in town has a used TC Hawken 54 cal. for sale it is hardly used but has a scope on and that will be coming off. It's junk and looks stupid to boot. The price is $ 335 with tax and all. Think it's a good deal? The scope has me a bit concerned if it was not drilled properly. And one more question to Bigblock, You mentioned drilling out the flash hole for BH209. Do I drill all the way through from front to back or just the front or back?

i dont think acetone is really doing you a lot of good. Always try to use a water based product, something like windex when swabbing between shots. Alcohol style swabbing solutions just dont remove the fouling and tend to leave behind baked on fouling. Acetone should do a decent job of removing plastic but that really is something i never seen in my bores or had to worry about.

I guess I'm "old school", but I've never shot the BP substitutes. Always been a Goex 2F guy. I shoot an old T/C Renegade but have switched out the #11 nipple for a musket cap nipple. Musket caps work great and are MUCH easier to place on the nipple than a #11 cap, even with a brass capper. I shoot 420 grain No Excuses bullets with 100 grains of the 2F. Accuracy out to 100 yards is 3-4" with a Williams Fool Proof receiver sight and green fiber optic front sight.

For those using Alliant Black, Sportsman's Warehouse has a great deal on it right now for under ten bucks.

Thanks Montana . All the Sportsmans are gone in my area now though. Also, if index works, I will use that . I was wondering what I can use instead of spending 7 bucks on a 16 oz. bottle of Hornady bore cleaner. Anyone think the TC Hawken in 54 Cal. is a good deal at 335 with tax, or is that just ave?

Why use a substitute at all when real black works so well ?

Actually Blackheart , I will likely be trying that soon too. I dont know what is going on but my two inlines are shoot quite good. I think had a bad scope on one . I also wonder if I was not packing down the bullet hard enough. I shot several 50 yd 3 shot groups under 2" with open sights. I also put on a new scope on my TC Impact and it shot quite well, 2" @ 50 yds ( 3 shot group). I was using Alliant but yesterday used Shockey powder in blue can. I have a place 10 miles away that sells real black powder. Also, my best 3 shot group was 1.5" and I was using once shot sabots that I had already shot. Seems like there is no loss of accuracy and have done this before. Hey, they're 18 cents a piece.

Why waste the good stuff for simple paper targets? Real black is 2 1/2 hour trip one way for me. Save the good stuff for hunting, shoot the cheap easy stuff for punching holes.

OK gotcha. Makes sense now. I don't have that problem. Real black is readily available to me without going out of my way.

Real black is always worth a try.

I can get real black from Grafs that is their brand for 14 bucks , plus Hazmat , but only 9 mi. up the road they keep Goex for 25 per lb.

Not a fan of their powder, its Schutzen and never really was as accurate as goex. I actually have a pound of 4f grafs and that stuff is slow.

I didn't know that Grafs was sub par. I will try Goex then.

In the encore, try 100 gr by volume of bh209 and a 300 gr Barnes red hot or hot shot or whatever they call their sabot. I have tried that combo in several different rifles, one being an encore, and it always shot well.

I need to drill out one of my breech plugs and am not sure just how. I dont know if I should go all the way through the breech plug or not.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

The only reason you would want to go all the way through is if you are adding a vent liner to the plug. Cleaning is just removing carbon from the flash channel. You leave the flash hole alone.

Thanks Overkill. I suppose I can't use the drilled out breech plug with any other powder than 209 then right? It will be a BH209 breech plug only then, right, or can I use Pyrodex or Black powder with that same breech plug? I'm assuming the answer is no however. I am surprised that BH209 needs a different breech plug. Tells me it is not a black powder substitute .

that tells you it IS a black powder sub, only the best sub ever made. Subs are hard to ignite, with BH209 being the hardest.

What rifle you shooting again?

I cant imagine why you would think that. Is there a reason you think better ignition is gunna make other subs or real black powder worse?...Of course not with the exception of maybe 777 that will get more crud ring with a hotter ignition. TC plugs need no modification to work well with Blackhorn. Only the long Triumph style plug would benefit at all. Impact and Omega type plugs are fine. Keep them cleaned out of carbon but you should be doing that with any powder. If you had a very early Gen 1 Omega plug then yes. Adding a vent liner and a 5/32 flash channel would be a huge improvement.

The Impact and Omega type plugs with the dished/concave powder side need nothing to work.

Bigblock455 , I'm shooting a TC Encore. Overkill. I am not getting good ignition with BH209 but having no problem with anything else. This is why I am asking . If I am getting good ignition with the original size hole in the breech plug with Alliance/ 777, and Jim Shockeys stuff but not with BH209 it stands to reason if I bore out the back of the breech plug it may very well change the burn rate/ ignition rate on what is working well . It may make it burn faster too. I am not sure so I ask. I am hesitant to try to change something that might change the burn rate of a powder. Overkill says it is a hrs powder to ignite. I think he is right, I have had good results with BH 209 when it was 80 degrees but real bad results when it is cold outside fi i recall right. There is a reason the flash hol wis the size it is. . Bigblock gave me a link to BH209 and they said to drill it out so I will trust them, however, it seems the only shooters doing this is BH209 users. I am hesitant to try Alliant with the big flash hole cause it might raise the pressure or something.

I'd buy a new plug first.

Except for cleaning. Flash hole will clog too. Big size paperclip straightened out works pretty well. Not sure what size bit that works out to.

Greetings this morning to Shhotem from Moorseville NC. I am sure you dont have frost on the grass like we do this fine Mother's Day morning. As for a paper clip , I think that is a good idea. I never did that , I just cleaned out with a Q tip and if I could see the flash hole was not clogged i figured it was good. I will try to clean it better . You all have a nice day now.

You are not boring out anything. You are not removing metal. Carbon gets super hard in the channel. It dont matter what powder you are using. You should be cleaning the plug down to bare metal each time you clean it. Leaving any carbon in the channel is a heat sink and it sucks up oil or solvents which makes it even worse.

If you are not cleaning the flash channel with a 1/8" drill bit you are just yanking your chain. The info is right on Westerns website on how to clean the plug. Even CVA's plug cleaning tool is a drill bit. I shot probably 2 5lb jugs of it through Omega style plugs and never had a problem as long as you clean the plug occasionally. A guy in South Dakota has tested his in sub zero temps without a glitch....There is no big secret to making that plug reliable other than cleaning it the right way. You dont even need mag primers. A plain old win209 works fine.




One thing i would be careful of though. When cleaning the hole not the channel......Just use the smooth part of the torch cleaner. Dont scrub it with the rough part. That will only wear out your plug faster. When the HOLE reaches about .035-.036 its about worn out.

I will give it a try.

I agree with the above . I used 209 cleaner in mine and never had any problems after going to the musket nipple!. The musket cap is hotter I believe. Cheers NC

I use Triple-7 in my LHR Redemption.

This was my first modern muzzleloader. When I had trouble with carbon build-up, I learned that Ed's Red and patience seems to work the best. That is, after a day of shooting, I'll remove the breech plug, soak it in Ed's Red-- usually overnight and then everything comes clean with just a wipe.

Here's the recipe for Ed's Red:

http://frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

Shamen , I will try cleaning the barrel with " Ed's Red"!!

Blue Allant pellets and Black MZ loose work fine for me. I stopped using the two hottest primers and chose Winchester 209s for the task. The open point of a small safety pin keeps that firing hole open on your breechplug.
You may need to check it after every half-dozen shots, depending on powder charge. Maximum powder charges need more look & see's. 1/8th drill bit for the other-end.

Alliant Black Mz best deal around at Sportsman's Warehouse for $9 a pound... I ordered online as it was cheaper than driving the 120 miles round trip. I'll be picking up a couple more pounds either on the
4th or the 5th, as I have to go to Helena, MT and will be going past two Sportsman's Warehouse stores.

I finally located some at SW, grabbed two pounds which I will give a go come August. If it works good it will be in the field come October. Tough to beat at $9 a pound.

How about 209 cleaner in an old Spanish Derringer?

Actually it's $9.99 a pound, but after using it this last Friday, I'm hooked on hits accuracy with my Lyman Great Plains Rifle 1:60 .54 cal and it's almost zero fouling, and awesome cleanup.

I shot a total of 20 shots, without any barrel swabbing in between. My first patch was as you see it in the photo, second patch followup, then the third.

The 4 shot group off hand and the patches reflect how easy cleanup was. - I'm sold on Alliant Black MZ, and see no reason to change back to Goex which cost locally $23.95 a pound.

you'll see a reason to go back to goex when the supply of black mz runs out. American Pioneer makes it and they to are out of business.