What with modern technology and answers for everthing; why can't I buy a stainless rifle that is blue through and through. Or perhaps black. Anything but stainless in its present naturally light and reflective appearance.

Now, I do not mean tape or aftermarket paints or finishes. I want not a finish so much as a metal that is the same coloration throughout and therefore will not easily show the inevitable dings and wear that is the unavoidable fate of any real hunting rifle not pampered or coddled.

Any thoughts?

Stainless can be blued. Weatherby has done it, don't know why other gun manufactures don't have em in their line.

It looks more like black than a traditional blue finish.

But does it go all the way through?

All the way through what?

Don

Bluing is a rusting process. Stainless doesn't rust. You can flash a copper coat on stainless electrically and then plate it though. No bluing goes through and through. It is striclkly a surface condition. You need to take some metalorgy classes

Metalorgy? ...... Nah, I'm not even going there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Gosh guys,

I thought that I made it clear; but I will try again. What I am after is not a coating or surface finish of any kind or form; i.e., I want the metal itself to be the blue color - every Godamn molecule of that metal.

If that could be chemically possible it would be like a pound of butter - the same color all the way through.

You're dreaming. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Take some courses in Metallurgy.

Don

Am I being told that such a possibility for a piece of suitable metal is absolutely chemically impossible, or just that you do not know how to do it?

Being directed to go take a technical course is hardly an answer that speaks well of the true knowledge of its user or an understanding of the nature of the honest question.

I was not seeking snide self-serving and lazy insults - but an expert explanation. Anybody got something more worthwhile to offer?

Blueing is a surface finish. There's no depth to it. Blueing stainless ulilizes the same process as hot blueing, different chemicals. The blueing on my weatherby wasn't as durable as a blueing job on a CM rifle.

jensen;

What you are asking for is a completely homogenous steel with a deep blue inherent coloration.

As far as I know, such is not chemically or metallurgically possible.

Steel is metal alloy made from varying amounts of iron, carbon, and other metals (all to various percentages) such as Molybdenum (sic), chromium, and others.

None of these metals carries a "blue" cast in it's workable form, and no combinations that I am aware of will result in a "naturally blue" stainless-type steel.

Bluing, as we know it, is a surface finish, like anodization of aluminum, and only goes a few microns deep into the surface of the metal.

"Stainless" steel can rust, and be rusted, as as such it can be "blued", as a surface finish, but that is as deep as the finish gets.

My suggestion if you want a "blue" stainless firearm is to have the stainless firearm coated with some type of hard, durable finish, like Cerakote in a cast of bluish color close to what you want.

I want to know why I can't make my chrome moly rifles stainless.........

Sand the bluing off, bead blast the steel, and you have a "stainless" rifle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just keep it oiled.

Don

My remarks are not meant to be snide or insulting. However, you need to have an understanding of metal and it's properties before you can understand why it can't be done. Certain types of stainless steel can indeed rust to some degree, but not to the degree of the bluing process.

Sorry if it was worded improperly. My experience goes back to 20 years of running a machine shop and finsihing steel , aluminum and just about every other kind of metal with a wide variety of additive and nonadditive types of finishes

'Cause they don't like you... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This I do understand about coating stainless and realize that there are several more or less successful methods for doing this.

Indeed, I have a 70 pre-64 Varminter that has a stainless barrel that I was told was made black by a thin copper coating that was then easily treated to be a darker color.

However I do appreciate you effort. Thanks.

What I am really after is for the metal itself to be the darker color - no coatings - while retaining all the easier upkeep advantages of stainless.

And also my ideal - perhaps fantastical - material would not easily show wear or abuse because no underlying differently colored metal would show through in the worn spots.

You can notice this intrinsic concealability in firearms with plastic (shudder) frames or triggerguards - and that have taken some wear or abuse.

Does this additional explanation help to clarify?

Hey Vanimrod,

You have stated my hypothetical perfectly.

Although I do not want to hear your negative answers as to feasibility; I must bow to your clarity and expertise in this matter.

Thank you.

Expertise? Ha...

I am FAR from an expert, I just haven't ever seen or heard of any metallurgical combination that would result in what you want.

I just tried to give you the answer to the question that you needed, as I understood the situation; regardless of whether it was the one that you wanted or not.

BTW - what MOS?

I think the boys get what you're after.

They just don't like your odds of getting it.

It's kind of along the same lines as I want a .416 that shoots flat as a lazer in a 4 lb. rifle that kicks like a .243 and NO muzzle break. And hey while you're at it throw me in a set of twin Halle Berry's!

It's all nice fantasy, but beyond the scope of reality as we now know it.

Ever seen pics of steel being made?

Looks like some pretty hot chit to me.

Am thinking adding a box of rit dye or any other color molecule in that mix is just gonna burn baby burn.

Not trying to be snide, just trying to get the point across.

Heck I'd like some honest politicians, at least you're liable to get blue stainless steel............. someday.

Hey saddlesore,

A sincere thanks for taking that extra step with me. Guess I am going to have to file this brainstorm away under " maybe someday but not right now."

One afterthough -

Some of that fantasy - and unbelievable - stuff we saw on "Star Trek" many years ago are now functioning realities of everyday life. Right?

VAnimrod -

If you will explain MOS, I will attempt an answer.

You're an "exmarine", right?

What was your MOS? Job, in the Corps?

Actually, I believe that Ruger's "Target Gray" is not just a surface finish. It is my understanding that the coloration is ingrained or present throughout this stainless steel variation. At least that's the way that I've seen Ruger advertise it on their site. It is a dark gray stainless steel from what I have read. It's not black or dark blue, but it is certainly much darker than standard stainless.

What you are after is a far cry from flip phones <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

Hey, I think it finally dawned on me - military occupational specialty? If this is your question, I was an 0300 then a 2771 and finally a 2773.

Was my guess correct?

Yep.

0352, myself.

Just read your follow up post and I guess I figured it out on my own. At my age such happy events are major accomplishments in the memory department.

You did the actual heavy lifting. Although I was FMF 1st Division, I can tell no real seastories. Just happy to have survived Boot Camp in 1958 and still proud that I served. Its about the only identity I have left these days.

Me neither (seastories, that is).

The ones that did the heavy lifting are those like MontanaMarine. Shane is in your neck of the woods, and is a Marine to the core (and the Corps).

I may have spoken too soon. I just re-read an article by Jeff Quinn and reviewed the Ruger site. Both refer to "Target Gray" as a low-glare stainless finish. Does anyone with a Ruger in Target Gray know whether this finish scratches off like blue or matte black?

It scratches.

BLACKENING OF STAINLESS STEEL
Robar is able to blacken stainless steel through the use of oxidizing type blacking compounds. This process produces black coatings on stainless steel and alloy steels by a "conversion" process. The chrome in the stainless steel is involved in a chemical reaction with the oxidizers in the solution producing chrome-sulfide. The application of the black finish is dependent upon the surface treatment of the steel. Bead blasted surfaces will have a satin black appearance while a surface blasted with aluminum oxide will be matte in nature. Importantly, dimensional changes involved in blackening are extremely small, less than 0.0001 Mil. This thickness of the black oxide type coating ranges from 0.00006-0.0001 Mil depending on the type of alloy being treated. Blackening of stainless steel not only makes the weapon more attractive but adds to its corrosion resistance (96 hours salt spray per Mil-C-13924B) and aids in preventing galling, common in stainless steel guns.

.....from ROBARs website.



I had Robar's treatment of NP3 internals/Black exterior of my ULA 300WSM. It has a stainess Douglas barrel that is now black. They did a good job - I'm well pleased.



Jeff

Thanks for the explanation. A local gunsmith is set up to do stainless steel so I know it can be done.

Things that would be cool --

If gun steel could be anodized like aluminum arrows used to be. Man, whatever that stuff was lasted great. I couldn't get it off.

If you could specify gun steel color mix like you can a Mickey stock. Of course, then the Alaskan crowd would have completely pink rifles. Maybe in yellow stocks.

Being a metalurgist, or even being able to spell it. I tried to take the class, but there must have been a computer error. The class I got in had nothing to do with guns, but now I can forecast the weather.

Talus. Anodizing turns thr outer surface of aluminum to aluminum oxide. ie ceramic

exmarinejensen: I suspect that if the right minds tackled the job it could become a reality. If it for some reason was to become a high enough priorty, it would likely be accomplished in a year. Heck, men have flown, landed on the moon, split the atom, made diamonds better than mother nature's, decoded DNA, and figured out how fire flies work. Blue or black steel ought to be easy?? 1Minute

I agree 1minute.. now to get that goverment grant to get the scientists busy so we can have different colored barrels.....

Hey 1minute & Joel steenstra,

Thanks for providing a supportive and comforting measure of optimism for my far-out idea, and wish, for this specific metal development in firearms technology.

I also accept the premise that a preceived market need must usually preceed and drive innovative technology.

Thanks to all others as well. It has been a fun - and I learned much more than I bargined for.

emjensen, I think that you will find that many of the better coatings like ceracoat are easily as durable as traditional blueing. I think that the Robar finish in the picture looks great also. You might check out Empire rifles, their rifles even with wood stocks are stainless/coated/. It might be a wave of the future.
The only way that you might come close to having the finish all the way through is going to be on one of the Carbon-Fibre wrapped barrels................DJ

I recently tried to clean a stainless dog bowl with toilet bowl cleaner/lime and rust remover (dont ask), which is mostly hydrochloric acid, I think. It turned the bowl a blackish blue where it touched, but it was pretty uneven. It didn't wash off though, even after scrubbing with steel wool. I haven't seen any rust on the blackened surfaces either.

I'm not making any suggestions, just reporting an observation.

FWIW

tq

There are a many type of "stainless steel". It all depends on the chemistry of the steel. Due to the type of stainless used in manufacturing firearms which require some type of heat treatment it lends itself to corrosion. It's been way too many years since my metalurgy class so my mind is rusty on all the facts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If ya don't use it ya loose it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Hey dumazuri,

I find your "dog dish" experiment very interesting. Makes me wonder whether indeed many of our great discoveres and breakthroughs are not stumbled and fumbled into as a result of unintended consequences.

I would like to hear more if you should mess around more with this type of "'finish."

Stainless steel absolutely can be blued.
It is trickier than bluing carbon steel, and cannot be done by as many different methods. I own factory gloss stainless rifles and handguns which were factory blued. They have a very blue tint, rather than black.

My experiences on this thread have forced me to ponder whether all responders do bother to read the original post in full or at all - or just sound off after glancing at the title?

Is this common thing on this forum?

Have a bit of experience with coatings from fit 4 duty here.

I scratched off some cerracoat on an elk hunt off a MZ, not a SS barrel though, BUT it did not rust where scratched off. I suspect much like robar or even better, it is deeper so that even though the color leaves with nicks its still protected to a degree.

Off topic but FYI.

Jeff

Well slick, #1 if you had any understanding of metalurgy you'd realize why it's not possible. The steel would have to be alloyed with some material that would be colored blue and would make up a large precentage of the metal to give it the depth of color. The alloy would be required to have zero effect of the strength of the steel and be homogenize within the steel. This material would also be required to withstand the heat required to produce the steel.

So knowing that, everyone has given you a second, practical solution in producing a blued finish on stainless steel.

Hey AJ300MAG,

Well, I do know a little bit about metal. That's that hard stuff on a firearm that is not the stock, right?

Also, for I hope for the final time, I am fully aware that to get what I want the metal must indeed be colored on the molecular level. That was the whole idea behind posing the problem.

Also, some others seem less pessimistic and much less absolutist as to the possibilty than that my wishful thinking may not someday become a reality.

Finally, if I wanted to know about coatings, I would have asked about coatings. Having spent considerable money on various coating, finishes and etc. over the years, I was trying to find out about a more durable option, right from the factory and intrinsic to the metal itself.

Sorry, if my hypothetical question irriitated you and challenged your fossilized preconceptions. Keep an eye out. You may be surprised someday in your future.

AJ300MAG, if you are trying to say that it is not possible to blue stainless, you need to ask Smith & Wesson about the blued stainless handguns they used to catalog. Mine look good.

Sure, you can change the "color" at the molecular level, but then it is no longer steel.Each atom possesses its own intristic light absorbing properties.
You cannot change the light absorbing/reflecting properties of stainless steel at the molecular level without changing the composition of the alloy in question, without adding some sort of "colorbodies" that as AJ300MAG stated, would have to not effect the strength, heat, tensile ,etc.,properties in any negative ways. That is a tall order. The obvious solution to your question is some sort of coating that will give a different appearance without effecting the anti corrosive properties of stainless. I do think that advances in the coating process will continue, i.e., will become easier to apply, less expensive, and more durable.
Respectfully,

The one thing I learned in manufacturing is the best engineering designs appear to be the simplist, but there was alot of time and trial and error that went into making a good solid simple design. Look at the light bulb. Put a tunsten element into an glass sphere that is evacuated of atmosphere, and insulate the two ends of the wire. Sounds about as simple as it gets, but how long did Thomas Jefferson take to invent the light bulb, and how many thousands of ittereations?

Conversley apparently complex looking machine is often put together as the fastest possible design, with plenty of adjustments to make up for a lack of engineering and refinement. Sounds like a computer?

So while it may utterly easy to come up with a durable consistantly and easily applied bluing method that would be compatable with the various stainless alloys used to produce rifle barrels, I doubt it is nearly as easy as it sounds. I'd also venture to guess there would be a very limited market for sucy a process.

I'm partial to bead blasting stainless to get rid of the glare.

Re-read my previous post. I've already acknowledged that stainless steel can be blued. He's looking for something that will cause the steel to be blue down to each and every molecule not some type of surface coating. If I were to machine such type of stainless it would still maintain it's "blue" coloration.

I take it you have specialized knowledge in this area so instaed of sharring what you know you'd rather play I've got a secret?

Hey 340boy,

Your explanation is concise and clear - and I have no rebuttal. But, I must ask other questions; could it not be the case that the "added Colorbodies" could be neutral to the the metal's strength properties - or perhaps even make them better? Why must an addition to what is already a somewhat comlex and varied alloy automatically be deleterious? Could it not be also an improvement?

Oh, and one more thing, "Never say never."

Certainly!
It is possible that you could add some sort of pigment to an alloy without effecting the metals strength, and specifically,its anti-corrosive attributes.
I believe that in ceramics,it is possible to do just that. In my field of expertise(chemical engineering/processing) color bodies are usually(not always) detrimental to as well as undesirable in a finished product.
I also agree with your last statement, otherwise many remarkable and beneficial inventions would never <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> have been discovered.
Good shooting!

Bluing is a surface treatment of metal, the controlled corrosion to produce an oxidized layer which shields the underlying metal from corrosive agents such as water.

The best treatment is a chemical vapor deposition of a non-corroding alloy on top of the stainless or carbon steel, such as titanium nitride or diamond-like carbon. The Remington M-700 XCR has the TiN treatment.

Another excellent treatment is an oxidized surface like manganese phosphate with a baked on powder coating, like the HK G3 and USP models for amphibious military use.

Because the underlying steel in a rifle barrel is relatively soft, at about 28 Rockwell, it can be dented and consequently detached a PCVD or paint coating. Otherwise, they offer protection for several of our lifetimes.

Hey 340boy,

Your detailed and expert input has made this old man's morning - and bouyed up my faith in the infinite possibilities available from "better living through chemistry."

What is accepted and absolute now is only a strairstep to what's coming next.

exmarinejensen,

Right on!
All too often, we (OK-me!) tend(s) to forget that creativity and science are not mutually exclusive.
Take care,
Regards

Yes, it scratches and fairly easily. I don't know how deep the scratches go, and you can generally smooth them off with steel wool, but it ain't like hard stainless.

Good looking finish, though.

Stainless steel cannot be blue because it is a naturally cheerful metal.

It could be that you deserve "the cute award" for this particular thread.

Or so it seems to me.

458 lott -

Who invented the lightbulb???

Oh,Oh... I think I know this one. If my memory serves me right. Thomas Edison took his theory and assembled a team of experts/craftsmen, which included a glass blower and had a working prototype in 6 months. I think it happened in NJ. Saw it on the History channel.

I'd call that incredibily fast. Early lightbulbs even lasted longer. It would take a lot longer today, I'm sure. Heck, there is a multitude of things modern society can't do as fast.

Sorry to get off topic but that's what happens when a thread goes beyond its useful life; it won't happen again.

I've seen documentaries that discuss "blue through and through" stainless steel development. With the amount of resources that are being devoted to it's creation, I'd expect it sometime soon. After all it is a necessary component of the hoverboard. Along with the flux capacitor. Shortly after the "blue through and through" stainless, we'll be seeing "Transparent" Aluminum.

But seriously, anything present in enough quantity to change the color of a mixture of iron, nickel, chromium, carbon and other compounds is more than likely going to have a lot of other effects. Most of which will be highly detrimental. Also, as far as I know, there is just one person looking for stainless that is "blue through and through". As opposed to billions of people that use the electric light bulb, and hundreds of millions that use mobile phones. So while it may be theoretically possible to come up with "blue through and through" stainless, there isn't the right effort to reward ratio needed to justify the expenditures needed to create such a material. Unless you are stepping up to foot the bill ?

Regards,
Scott

** Bonus points to those who can name the documentaries!

Thanks for your input.

No bonus points for me today.

I wuz thinkin of sendin him a couple boxes of Rit Cobalt Blue dye. He could mix it up, stick his barrel in and let it soak. Then he can pull it out once a week, cut off an inch of barrel and let us know how long it took for the blue to be completely absorbed.

Sorry ex, I can't help taking cheap shots at jarheads <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


And about that ex thing. I thought there are no ex marines, only former marines???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

I belive that Smith & Wesson had some"blued" 686 revolvers in the early 1990's.
Don't know what process that they used.
Bob

Don't know about the 686 revolvers, but sometime in the 1960s Remington started using stainless barrels on some of their magnum 700s. The sneaky buggers didn't mark them as stainless, however. I have seen them polished up ready for blueing on the supposition that they were regular barrels. After 30 minutes in the tank the receiver was nice and blue, but the barrel was still silver. Don't know what process the factory had used to blue the barrel.

I keep all my magazines, read them endlessly and believe 99% of what I read. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Look for your May 2002 copy of shooting Times. Layne Simpson did a fine article titled, Remington's Model 700 Turns The Big 40. Early Rem's in 6.5 and 7 mag had SS barrels. In the article, page 54, Layne writes "Remington went to the great expense of first plating them with copper and then iron so they would accept a blued finish."

The blue is a lighter hue and matt in appearance. I have trained my eye to spot these rifles on the used rack. I have a 1963 7 mag thats marked SS on the barrel and a 1967 production 6.5 mag that has Stainless Steel fully printed out. I believe this stainless feature was finally dropped because of the expense and less public fear of these rounds burning up barrels.

Both these rifles, by the way, are gems cabable of sub MOA.

Hey AJ300MAG.

You are right. It is always open season and great fun to take shots at all ex (former? perpetual?) Marines. Especially, if like me they volunteered with patrotism and high hopes of national service in their innocent hearts. But if you want a better and more appropriate target level your sights at this Jack Murtha yahoo. If he was ever a true jarhead, he must have forgotten it years ago. Maybe, he went Washington.

This exmarinejensen thing didn't actually start with me. The young guy who knew me and that installed this present computer system, and got me online, suggested that this was somehow fit for me.

Because my memory is not always that great for recent things I have consequently utilized this for all my internet stuff. Also, and this may make you chuckle, have used the serial number of my 1958 issued International Harvester M-1 Garand as my password for all my accounts. In remembering this archaic information, I doubt that I am unusual among former members of the Marine Corps. Funny how this stuff works and sticks in an old guy's memory.

Finally, if the technolgy for creating a "blued" metal was as easy as Ritz dye saturation; I would guess that I would be carrying such a firearm rather than wishing for one. I still wonder if I will live long enough to hold such a wonder in my hands. Probably not.

Lastly, my thanks to all the inputs to this thread, serious and otherwise. They have provided various proportions of education and entertainment. If you will take a look at the numbers of folks who have read and responded to this thread; then I think I must label my efforts - and certainly yours - as "Mission Accomplished."

I have enjoyed this thread as well!
You take care, MARINEjensen!!
Regards

Thank you, Tim.