Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Why can't stainless be blue?

I recently tried to clean a stainless dog bowl with toilet bowl cleaner/lime and rust remover (dont ask), which is mostly hydrochloric acid, I think. It turned the bowl a blackish blue where it touched, but it was pretty uneven. It didn't wash off though, even after scrubbing with steel wool. I haven't seen any rust on the blackened surfaces either.

I'm not making any suggestions, just reporting an observation.

FWIW

tq

There are a many type of "stainless steel". It all depends on the chemistry of the steel. Due to the type of stainless used in manufacturing firearms which require some type of heat treatment it lends itself to corrosion. It's been way too many years since my metalurgy class so my mind is rusty on all the facts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If ya don't use it ya loose it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Hey dumazuri,

I find your "dog dish" experiment very interesting. Makes me wonder whether indeed many of our great discoveres and breakthroughs are not stumbled and fumbled into as a result of unintended consequences.

I would like to hear more if you should mess around more with this type of "'finish."

Stainless steel absolutely can be blued.
It is trickier than bluing carbon steel, and cannot be done by as many different methods. I own factory gloss stainless rifles and handguns which were factory blued. They have a very blue tint, rather than black.

My experiences on this thread have forced me to ponder whether all responders do bother to read the original post in full or at all - or just sound off after glancing at the title?

Is this common thing on this forum?

Have a bit of experience with coatings from fit 4 duty here.

I scratched off some cerracoat on an elk hunt off a MZ, not a SS barrel though, BUT it did not rust where scratched off. I suspect much like robar or even better, it is deeper so that even though the color leaves with nicks its still protected to a degree.

Off topic but FYI.

Jeff

Well slick, #1 if you had any understanding of metalurgy you'd realize why it's not possible. The steel would have to be alloyed with some material that would be colored blue and would make up a large precentage of the metal to give it the depth of color. The alloy would be required to have zero effect of the strength of the steel and be homogenize within the steel. This material would also be required to withstand the heat required to produce the steel.

So knowing that, everyone has given you a second, practical solution in producing a blued finish on stainless steel.

Hey AJ300MAG,

Well, I do know a little bit about metal. That's that hard stuff on a firearm that is not the stock, right?

Also, for I hope for the final time, I am fully aware that to get what I want the metal must indeed be colored on the molecular level. That was the whole idea behind posing the problem.

Also, some others seem less pessimistic and much less absolutist as to the possibilty than that my wishful thinking may not someday become a reality.

Finally, if I wanted to know about coatings, I would have asked about coatings. Having spent considerable money on various coating, finishes and etc. over the years, I was trying to find out about a more durable option, right from the factory and intrinsic to the metal itself.

Sorry, if my hypothetical question irriitated you and challenged your fossilized preconceptions. Keep an eye out. You may be surprised someday in your future.

AJ300MAG, if you are trying to say that it is not possible to blue stainless, you need to ask Smith & Wesson about the blued stainless handguns they used to catalog. Mine look good.

Sure, you can change the "color" at the molecular level, but then it is no longer steel.Each atom possesses its own intristic light absorbing properties.
You cannot change the light absorbing/reflecting properties of stainless steel at the molecular level without changing the composition of the alloy in question, without adding some sort of "colorbodies" that as AJ300MAG stated, would have to not effect the strength, heat, tensile ,etc.,properties in any negative ways. That is a tall order. The obvious solution to your question is some sort of coating that will give a different appearance without effecting the anti corrosive properties of stainless. I do think that advances in the coating process will continue, i.e., will become easier to apply, less expensive, and more durable.
Respectfully,

The one thing I learned in manufacturing is the best engineering designs appear to be the simplist, but there was alot of time and trial and error that went into making a good solid simple design. Look at the light bulb. Put a tunsten element into an glass sphere that is evacuated of atmosphere, and insulate the two ends of the wire. Sounds about as simple as it gets, but how long did Thomas Jefferson take to invent the light bulb, and how many thousands of ittereations?

Conversley apparently complex looking machine is often put together as the fastest possible design, with plenty of adjustments to make up for a lack of engineering and refinement. Sounds like a computer?

So while it may utterly easy to come up with a durable consistantly and easily applied bluing method that would be compatable with the various stainless alloys used to produce rifle barrels, I doubt it is nearly as easy as it sounds. I'd also venture to guess there would be a very limited market for sucy a process.

I'm partial to bead blasting stainless to get rid of the glare.

Re-read my previous post. I've already acknowledged that stainless steel can be blued. He's looking for something that will cause the steel to be blue down to each and every molecule not some type of surface coating. If I were to machine such type of stainless it would still maintain it's "blue" coloration.

I take it you have specialized knowledge in this area so instaed of sharring what you know you'd rather play I've got a secret?

Hey 340boy,

Your explanation is concise and clear - and I have no rebuttal. But, I must ask other questions; could it not be the case that the "added Colorbodies" could be neutral to the the metal's strength properties - or perhaps even make them better? Why must an addition to what is already a somewhat comlex and varied alloy automatically be deleterious? Could it not be also an improvement?

Oh, and one more thing, "Never say never."

Certainly!
It is possible that you could add some sort of pigment to an alloy without effecting the metals strength, and specifically,its anti-corrosive attributes.
I believe that in ceramics,it is possible to do just that. In my field of expertise(chemical engineering/processing) color bodies are usually(not always) detrimental to as well as undesirable in a finished product.
I also agree with your last statement, otherwise many remarkable and beneficial inventions would never <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> have been discovered.
Good shooting!

Bluing is a surface treatment of metal, the controlled corrosion to produce an oxidized layer which shields the underlying metal from corrosive agents such as water.

The best treatment is a chemical vapor deposition of a non-corroding alloy on top of the stainless or carbon steel, such as titanium nitride or diamond-like carbon. The Remington M-700 XCR has the TiN treatment.

Another excellent treatment is an oxidized surface like manganese phosphate with a baked on powder coating, like the HK G3 and USP models for amphibious military use.

Because the underlying steel in a rifle barrel is relatively soft, at about 28 Rockwell, it can be dented and consequently detached a PCVD or paint coating. Otherwise, they offer protection for several of our lifetimes.

Hey 340boy,

Your detailed and expert input has made this old man's morning - and bouyed up my faith in the infinite possibilities available from "better living through chemistry."

What is accepted and absolute now is only a strairstep to what's coming next.

exmarinejensen,

Right on!
All too often, we (OK-me!) tend(s) to forget that creativity and science are not mutually exclusive.
Take care,
Regards

Yes, it scratches and fairly easily. I don't know how deep the scratches go, and you can generally smooth them off with steel wool, but it ain't like hard stainless.

Good looking finish, though.

Stainless steel cannot be blue because it is a naturally cheerful metal.