I've been meaning to post this theme for a while and get your feedback as to what is real-world velocity increase due to some efficiencies (better case, powder, bullet, throating etc.) vs what is "no free lunch" and not worth the hassle.

I frequent other forum sites and there seems to be multiple emerging ways claiming significant increases in cartridge velocity:

1. Using Gunwerks or ADG brass- more case capacity? combined with RL23 (some claim other powders like RL26) to achieve 3300 fps out of a 300 Win Mag using 181 gr Hammer bullets. This seems very high and no powder charge was listed only velocity increases.

2. Using "Absolute" bullets from Hammer Bullets to get higher velocity. Claims of 300 Rum velocities from 300 Win Mag. and 300 Win Mag. velocities from a 30-06.

3. "+P Throating": Claims, that with special patented barrel treatment can, depending on cartridge, gain 100+fps more velocity: "...can help you get more velocity out of your standard chambering." Video link here: https://defensiveedge.net/what-is-p-throating/

Have any of you experimented with these or are you familiar enough with the concepts to share an opinion? Generally, is accuracy adversely affected at all or rifle/load dependent? I'm curious and want to learn something new. My initial reaction is that you cannot achieve more velocity without more pressure (which at some point can be dangerous) but that is only part of the overall picture since there might be ways to be more efficient or lower pressure to get more powder in the case etc...and to state the obvious, extra velocity is only useful if accuracy come along with it.

What's the point of an extra 100 fps or so and all the machinations it takes squeeze it out?

Here goes from a non gun writer.

1. Higher capacity cases require more powder to get back up to the pressure and velocity of lower capacity cases. In some instances you can exceed the velocity slightly above the lessor capacity case, but usually you are also increasing pressure.

2. Abosolute bullets are a form of two diameter bullet. This has been used to reduce pressure for a long time. Most notably it was used in the .264 Win. Mag when the cartridge fell short of projected velocities. It did help some.

3. Plus P throating: The +P from what I can gather is a form of free boring but it is accomplished by reducing the angle of the leade. A 1 degree angle was fairly standard for a target leade they may be going to an even more gradual angle, he didn't say.

Each of these things will initially require more powder to get back up to where you would have been without. Can you go above where you previously were? I think it will vary with the cartridge and in some cases it appears you can: 264 Win.Mag., 7x61 S&H and some of the Weatherby cartridges. I would be skeptical of anything over 100 fps increase unless there was pressure testing done before and after. All these things are good but the typical reloader Joe just uses them to use a heavy hand on the powder scale and then declares them a miraculous success.

Which is often my question--partly because I have often tried various techniques for another 100 (or even 150) fps. These have included:

New powders
New bullets
"Improved" cartridges
Longer barrels

Here's what I have found:
They can all work, but in general I have not been able to observe any difference in field performance with another 100-150 fps at "normal" ranges, say out to 500 yards. This means "killing power," however defined, AND trajectory/wind drift with the SAME bullet.

One other thing I've noticed is that once we jack up muzzle velocity another 100-150 fps, as in using RL-26 to increase 150-grain bullets in the .270 Winchester to over 3000 fps, is the rifle then recoils more like a 7mm magnum. And one long-time "advantage" of the .270 over various 7mm magnums (and I have used a lot of them, considerably) is less recoil. When a .270 kicks like a 7mm magnum we have lost that.

But when we use a 6.5mm cartridge with higher-BC bullets, at more-or-less .270 muzzle velocities, then we have less wind-drift AND recoil with similar "killing power" at longer ranges.

However, the longer I hunt the less difference I see in the "killing power" of various cartridges, within some broad parameters. Where you hit them matters far more than 100 fps of extra muzzle velocity--which is less than 100 fps at 500 yards.

Simplest way to realise higher velocity is to buy a rifle with a 24 or 26" barrel and use it that way without whining about how long it is. Some of the monometals are reported to punch way above their weight class like the 130 gr 30 cal ttsx barnes that would sure give a vel gain. Mb

Have found a LOT of barrels don't gain any velocity with 2-3" extra length with the same loads.

The one way they consistently DO gain 100 fps is when using more powder.

M.D, That's interesting. Could you please expand on that.

The other day I had a guy tell me he gets an "honest" 5000 fps out of his 17 Rem with 20gr Vmax s "all day long". Sometimes more powder equals more stupid.

The average velocity loss when the SAME barrel is shortened is around 25 fps per inch. This has been demonstrated by many experiments over the years--including miine.

But different barrels often (perhaps even usually) have slightly different chamber dimensions, bore/groove dimensions, throat lengths and rifling angles, etc. etc. As a result, some longer barrels won't achieve much--or any--"extra" velocity with the same loads.

Another point: As with "improved" versions of various standard rounds, many handloaders get more velocity out of longer barrels because they work up loads by looking at traditional "pressure signs," such as primer appearance, bolt lift, ejector-hole marks on the case head, etc. These can be caused by other things, but also often don't show up until pressures are around 70,000 or even 75.000 PSI--far higher than any SAAMI pressures.

This means that most of the extra velocity is often not due to the extra case capacity of an improved round, or 2-4" of barrel length, or (especially) a tiny bit of extra "volume" is some brass. Instead it's due to pushing brass to its limits--which isn't very safe.

Thanks, M.D. Understood.

I just give the gun a little push when I pull the trigger. A good jumpstart give tons of extra velocity. Or is that energy?....

I ran a 7mm SAUM in a full on 17 pound bench gun.
The idea was to run a 195g EOL It was set up with a "bore rider" free bore.
I tried two different barrels from very well known makers. One with a 1-8 twist other with 1-7.5 twist.
I pulled my hair out trying to make it competive.
Never had any luck with the 195..
Unreal velocity. I leaned hard on this thing and never opened a primer pocket. Which even now I find hard to believe..
Finally got the 180 hybrid to kinda shoot but it wasn't going to win any matches.
Eventually rechambered for my 300 SAUM.
Took a couple of matches to get the cases ironed out and won the 3rd match I shot with that barrel against 160 other guys..
Buddie had the bore rider in a 284 Win.
He's not shooting it any more either.....

Dace

Another point, often missed, is that a 100 fps increase at the muzzle is nothing like a 100 fps increase at 500 yds. Depending on the bullet, it might be half that.
I messed around with freebore enough, 35 years ago, to convince myself it didn't make much difference in velocity. New powder may offer some advantage but not always. My best velocity in my 6 BR was with IMR4320. I've not seen any powder which did much more than 4350 does in the 30/06.
As others have already said, that 100 fps doesn't really mean much in the end. GD

Plus 1...........

I wouldn’t bother. I doubt any increase in velocity will matter much when actually shooting game. I personally can’t stand the Gunwerks westies, so my opinion is probably a little biased.

Better yet, run towards the target as you pull the trigger. At my top speed that might get me two or three fps.

Easiest way to increase velocity is to simply go to a bigger case.

I played around with a .30-06 AI for a while, fussing over getting a meaningful velocity increase over the standard case. The .300 WinMag did that handily...

NOT a Gun Writer or Wannabe Gun Writer

Vic you beat me tuit ! I've been here on the 'fire' since 2010 and so many know I'm a speed freak ! ain't ashamed.

There are reasons I like the 270/280, 7 RM, 300 WM et.al. and Velocity is one of em.

* this is important to me * when you don't have time to
1. range 2. read chart 3. dial 4. THEN aim..... speed is your friend.

Jerry

If you need more velocity go to a bigger cartridge. Having a rifle blow up while you are holding it doesn’t sound like much fun.

I'm not so much a pure speed demon, where I hunt I can get by with a .30-30 most of the time and the faster cartridges tend to be a little destructive with the close-in shots.

BUT.

The occasional long shot can be had, so I've gotten to really like the .308 Win/165 BT @ 2700 fps combo. Easy on meat (and me) up close but can still drop a deer at 400 yards without fuss.

I like that versatility though the little .30 WCF has bagged a lot of deer, bear, and piggies for me. It just has somewhat of a "reach" limit and you have to respect that. I shot a deer at 236 yards with it and the evidence was the bullets weren't expanding too much, but at that distance, the .308 is right in the middle of its working velocity of the bullets I use.

If you like high speed, there is that advantage of the flat trajectory, and if I hunted in a more open area, that's most likely the way I'd lean.

You can figure it out with this formula: E=MC pie.

Well, there is always duplex loading (the REAL one - not mixing powders); it did shorten WWII by at least a year.

Agreed. And it is different for hunting, because I use pumpkin pie in the formula when solving for hunting scenarios, given the time of year when hunting happens.

Simple. Buy a Weatherby......

That's right: pumpkin until you kill the first deer, then mincemeat.

One would think, with the number of very well to do members here, some generous soul would donate a 6.5 Arisaka...load it with a case full of Bullseye, a solid copper bullet and chrono it for our edification. The donor could name it as he pleased, but the "6.5 Totemo Hayai" just rolls off the tongue. Wonder what 'Quickload' predicts for velocity?

Most Americans have been feed a steady diet of the lie "more speed is better" and in many, in fact most cases, it's not true.

I have done it all at one time or another killing more game animals than I can count in the last 58 years and I have used many many cartridges. It's been exactly as Muledeer said in his post: I could not see any real difference between how well the older cartridges and the super speed new ones killed game if I used the same type of bullet in both. And a bullet that holds together in a slower impact kills better, sometimes a lot better, then one that breaks into metal sand, because it's going too fast at impact.

In my 7mms I have killed game with 7X57s and 7MM Weatherby mags (and also a 280 and a 7MM Reming Mag) and I saw NO difference on how well they killed elk if I used the same bullets in the "slow" 7X57 and the fast 7MM Weatherby.

In 30 cals, well..... I have killed game with two 30-30s three 300 Savages, a 30-40 Krag, a 7.5 Swiss, nine 308 Winchesters, six 30-06s, two 300 H&Hs, a 300 Winchester, two 308 Normas, a 300 Weatherby and a 30/378 Weatherby. When Using a 165 grain bullets the 308 Winchester and 30-06 seem to do at least as well as my 30/378 Weatherby Mag did when killing elk and and in the cases where the bullets would not stay together from the 30-378, the 308 and 30-06 did notably better. Velocity-worshipers will scream, but that's the truth. I think of the super-mags as guns that should be married to solid expanding bullets like GMX and TSX types so 'blow-ups' don't cause problems if the shots are closer then 300 yards.

In my hunting with 57 years of it behind me as a hunter and a guide, and having hunting in many states and several countries, I can tell you that stepping up from a 7X57 to a 7MM Weatherby Mag both firing the same bullet showed be no extra stopping or killing effects on deer or elk and I do mean none at all. Stepping up from a 30-06 to a 30/378 also killed game about the same in some cases, with the bad cases in this particular comparison all being from the 30/378--- when the bullets broke up and the elk ran off a ways. In it's defense, I will say I never lot one, but the supper power of the big magnum didn't seem to matter to the game much. The 30-06 out performed the 30/378 if I compare the quickness of total kills on elk and deer with both shells. Not by a lot, but the 30/378 DID NOT beat the 30-06 and that is the point of this post.

So if loading your cartridge to get more velocity is a goal, I would ask what is the reason?
Speed = speed.
Speed DOES NOT = better kills ----------------unless you are going to add a LOT of speed, as in 800-1200 FPS. Going form a 30-30 Winchester to a 300 Weatherby Mag or a 30/378 is such a jump. But gaining 100 FPS over a standard 308 is of no real value however. Having killed a lot of game with 30-06s and comparing them to the various 300 mags I have owned and used I can say the killing effects have all be very close tho the same.

If you want to see how fast the shell can be pushed for the purpose of seeing how fast it can be pushed, so be it. That's like drag racing. It's about speed and there is no reason do do anything except to gain speed.

But if real-world use of the gun for hunting or even fighting is the end-game, more speed may work against you (for example, on a hot day) and gaining 50-100 FPS is going to do NOTHING for you for killing anything.

Good post!

Another point is at least with some VLD target bullets the sweet spot for accuracy is somewhere around 2,900 fps. There may be another accuracy node at higher velocities but what it is I have no idea. The early 1,000 yard shooters tried to compensate with more velocity by using cartridges like the 6.5-300 WWH but you don't see that many of the big cartridges on the firing lines these days. Things pretty much stop with the standard 300 magnums or improved versions of them., and the small bores have proliferated.

Szihn -

I agree with you as far as you went.

Speed does give you flatter trajectory !

Jerry

ps; I'm not talking 100-150 fps.

Mechanics are taught to select the proper tool for the job. If one applies the "logic" of many campfire members to the trades, builders would frame houses using sledge hammers.

If we load old timey cartridges like the 30-06, 250 Savage or 225 Win using propellants and bullets developed since 1965 for example, we would have improved downrange performance. Throw in a better understanding of rifle construction, proper rifling twists, vastly better optics and modern synthetic stocks and you catapult cartridge performance to previously unknown levels.(no pun intended)

Some have already discovered what can be done with better bullets and improved propellants shot from pipsqueaks like the 223.

But if you didn't use copper or bonded bullets, and stuck with old fashioned cup and core ones, ask yourself how could hunters in the dim times have taken so many deer, moose, buffalo, etc. with inferior cartridges like the 30-30, 25-35 or 303 Savage, 7x57, 303 British, etc?

But something is missing. The original question was,

I've been meaning to post this theme for a while and get your feedback as to what is real-world velocity increase due to some efficiencies (better case, powder, bullet, throating etc.) vs what is "no free lunch" and not worth the hassle.

Muzzle velocity is the least important variable when hunting. Proper shot placement is the thing, with a bullet that will function properly at the velocity it's travelling at the time of impact.

You can play around with different powders or bullets for more velocity, but your own limitations will make more of a difference. When I experiment with different powders and bullets I only consider accuracy and the velocity necessary at the expected range of bullet impact.

People talk about the latest bullets, powders, rifles and optics, but rarely speak about shooting. Not BR type shooting, but simply practising with their favourite load, designed to get the job done. I would spend less time trying to figure out how to squeeze an extra few fps from a bullet, and more time shooting .

Shoot more and put the bullet where it needs to go. Technology will not buy performance.

Even calling in an air strike doesn't always produce the desired result.

Excellent point.

For me, it's not that velocity kills better (it only does to a point, as in your example, then diminishing returns). It's that velocity best deals with the unknown 'wind drift' factor. Will 100 fps help...not practically...but going from a 30-06 to a 30-378 Wby (about +400 fps using 180gr bullets?) shooting across a canyon you gain significant wind advantage or call it margin of error, using same bullets, depending of course on how fast the wind is blowing and how far you can shoot at proficiently. If you judge wind and practice often, then maybe you can account for the wind properly almost each and every time but velocity may make up for the almost factor when you don't notice the extra downdraft etc. How do you normally deal with wind? It was blowing fiercely about 1 month ago when I was in Wyoming...

The Hammer Bullet claims are similar. That is, that you can increase velocity by 300+fps (if you think that traditionally a 300 Win Mag pushes a 180gr bullet at around 3100fps, then they are claiming that you can push their 178gr to 3400+fps, how or if safe and sustainable is the unknown), and all else being equal (hunter/shooting proficiency), does this extra velocity (or velocity from another method) make a difference on an animal at longer range if you misread the wind?

If you feel that you want to test their claims, you will have to pony up and try.

I wouldn't pay that amount of money for their products, and am suspicious of their claims. You are welcome to educate us, and I am not being a smart ass. Perhaps someone else is interested enough to discuss this with you, or better still, debate things in their forum. That might be a better arena.

Cheers.

Interestingly, I bought some of their bullets (the regular Hammer Hunters) and am having someone development a load. The "Absolute" version is new (to me).

I'm more curious and want to learn from people's experiences with these different types of velocity gains and how people evaluate any velocity gains in terms of wind drift advantages, if any? Happy to sit back and learn some more.

Thanks and as an aside, I shot one of my first WT deer with a 303 British cartridge. Seems like one out of every 15 deer rifles in Eastern Canada at the time was a Lee Enfield in some modified or original form.

I can assure you 'tis not. Even when it holds together.

Recoil was a concern in my light 270's when I saw the velocities RL-26 was producing. Even though I know bullet weight and velocity plus weight of powder charge all equals X amount of recoil, my lightweight 270's don't recoil anything like 7mmRM's I've owned in the past. Yes, I could tell a difference in recoil when going to ~2800 fps to ~3000 fps, but it's still quite tolerable to me. I don't consider myself particularly recoil insensitive and tend to avoid owning heavy recoiling rifles.

Well, there is my sub 7 lb 30-06 AI with 200 gr Partitions. It does kick similar to a 300 WM. But I fully intend to keep it around in case any Zombie Brontosaurus's ever invade......

Blistering velocity is over rated unless you're shooting 400+ yards a lot. I worry more about hitting stuff than how fast it gets there.

Lefty, If you really want to go wild, see if you can find a copy of the Wolfe Publishing book "Gibbs Cartridges" for not too much $$. The 2nd half of this thin (c.60 page) booklet covers just enough data on frontal ignition & duplex powder charges to get you started. In reality, it may be an exercise in futility, but it sounds like a lot of fun to try some of this stuff. If nothing else it's a good read. Also note the disclaimer on page XIII. It says (in larger than normal print) that Wolfe Publishing is not responsible for mishaps of any nature which might occur from use of the loading data in this book.

When I was younger & more inquisitive I had the means & the opportunity, but had neither the $$ or the time to fool around with this. Now that I have the time, opportunity, & could manage the means, there's no longer any real ambition to try it. Life is funny like that.

Casey, my .270 gets 3100 fps with 150s using published RL-26 data. I can assure you it kicks very much 150 s from a 7mm Remington Magnum--because I have a 7mm RM of the same weight.

Neither is particularly annoying to me, but I have guided Eastern whitetail hunters who purchased a 7mm Remington Magnum to "reach out and touch" pronghorns and mule deer, leaving the .243 or .308 Winchester they use on whitetails back home. And they could not shoot their new 7mm very well.