I have used MRP for the past 25 years in two custom .340 Wea Mags with great results. MRP has been extremely accurate, very little deviation and near factory level velocities.
Recently on a discussion on another forum a member stated that absolutely, positively RL22 and MRP are exactly the same. You know how sensitive and opinionated some members can get so I did not respond. On this forum I have read several posts about MRP and RL22. One member here actually posted close up photos of the kernels of both powders showing obvious differences. I know they are both manufactured by the same company in Sweden.
I apologize in advance if you have already answered this question(s).
Are MRP and RL22 exactly the same powder with just different labels?
The MRP has never shown any temperature sensitive pressure issues having fired hundreds of rounds in 100+F and 10F temperatures with at least 8 different lot numbers over a 25 year period.
Are there differences in the treatments of the two powders to handle temperature sensitivity?
If they are the same powder have they always been the same?
Any other differences?
Thanks!
NWT

Not MD, but are they exact? No. They are kissing cousins so close to each other that it’s my belief that RL22 is actually MRP seconds or blemish whatever you want to call it. I’ve interchanged 22 and MRP in a 25.06 for many years.charge weights are nearly identical, performance is also nearly identical. Where it varies is consistency lot to lot.

Buy and read Gun Gack II. Happy Trails

Look at p. 75 in GG 2

MD says they are the same, I do not and one technician from Ramshot said definitely different powders. But they are so close they usually can interchange with allowances for lot to lot variation. My understanding is same base powder but different retardants used, also MRP is more uniform in all ways: lot to lot, grain size, burn rate. I don't know if there is any difference in temperature sensitivity but if there is the slight edge would go to MRP.

Both came from the powder used in 6.5x55 Scandinavian military loads, first with a 156 grain bullet and later a 140 grain.

Quick load says they are not the same.
But it also says ADI version of Hodgdon's powder are different as well, so go figure.

The instance I reported on in GUN GACK II took place several years ago, when I did an article for Handloader magazine on the .270 Winchester.

The batches I had of RL-22 and MRP at the time looked exactly alike, and got the same muzzle velocities, with the same bullets, in the pair of test rifles I used, a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight O'Connor Commemorative and a Ruger No. 1B.

Not too long before doing that article I had talked with the head of Norma at the SHOT Show. He admitted that MRP was the same powder as RL-22, but that he believed MRP was more consistent from lot to lot.

From all that I felt comfortable in claiming they were the same powder--at least at the time. One or both may have changed since then.

Thanks everyone. Some great information. Some conflicting information too.
It sounds a little bit like we know what we don’t know.
Anyhow sounds like they are equals in most ways. I will just continue to use MRP as long as it is available.

Probably half the people on this forum are wondering........WHERE is MRP available at so we can get an 8pounder before Biden gets in tomorrow ?????????

I saw a new burn rate chart the other day and there was a powder between MRP and RL22. I do not remember which it was (Magpro maybe), but that would infer they are different

Lou

BA,
Should have said as long as they continue to manufacture it (MRP).
The Swedes didn’t shut down their economy so if Norma doesn’t absorb all of the powder we might
be seeing some down the road.

Look at Nosler’s website loading data for the 30.06 180 grain. It shows 62 grains of MRP @2710 FPS and then shows 62grains of RL22 @2810FPS.
Just adds more to the confusion .

You should add Winchester WXR to that list

Yes,from what I had read in the past MRP,Reloader-22 and Winchester WXR were all made in Sweden at the same factory.Reloader-22 and Winchester WXR were same powder as MRP that did not make the MRP specs.Winchester WXR was discontinued around 2012 and was replaced by Winchester ball powder 780 Supreme.I never shot any MRP,but I did compare Reloader-22,WXR and 780.With the same charge in my 7STW,Reloader-22 was really close to WXR.WXR ave about 15fps faster and that's really nothing.You can have that much difference in the same branded powder of different lots.They grouped the same with my loads.780,now discontinued too,was a bit slower,around 40fps with the same charge weight.I'd say it is probably close to IMR-7828.

Strange if MRP and Re22 are the exact same powder, that MRP is more consistent from lot to lot. ??? Do Norma apply more quality control when making their own branded powder and slack off a bit when making Re22?

Why wouldn't the two powders exhibit the exact same tolerances if exactly the same powder?

Agree with you 100%.

When the run of Re 22 is made the reject box has less powder in it

I suspect they arise from the same production line, but are separated by testing. This is not uncommon in various industries. For example, in electronics, different resistors are not made to be 10%, 5%, and 1% accurate. They just make one kind of resistor, then separate them into the different groups by testing for accuracy. (And charge more for 1% than for 10%.)

I once saw a burn rate chart with another powder between W296 and H110, also.
Burn rate charts are an approximation, and burn rates can change slightly in different calibers - so I'm told.

Norma's V2 Reloading Manual has a burn rate chart that shows Reloader 22 at Relative Velocity 90.2 and Relative Pressure 81.1 and MRP at 89.9 and 80.1 respectively. Chart is from Eurenco/Bofors...

You'll see that much variation, lot to lot, same powder.

DF

Exactly. In fact more than one powder company has told me they try to keep lot-to-lot variations within 2-3%--which is why many loading manuals show differences between powders that have always been the "same," such as the newly manufactured batches of W296 and H110.

Vihtavuori claims they keep lot variation within 1%, and in my experience they do.

And, you pay for that Vv quality.

These days, buy powder when becomes available; ya better be quick.

DF

From: Keith Anderson [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:30 AM
To: Gonzalez, Speedy
Subject: RE: L-32



Speedy,

The LT-32 is an exact copy of the original T-32 manufactured in the same plant and on the same machinery as the original. Lou Murdica has been extensively testing it and he tells us it is the easiest powder to tune that he has seen in 40 years. According to Lou, the chamber that everybody was using in the 80's will work with this powder. The bullets do not need to be seated way out in order to get more powder in the case. In testing the powder in our Bond Universal receiver against the origin "T' powder, my S.D.'s were about 30% lower with the new powder versus the "T" powder. Lou and Don Nielson donated 16 pounds of the original T-32 lot of powder for our quality control and that is what the new powder is shot against. All of our powders are allowed to deviate +3% to -5% in pressure from the quality control lot except LT-32 which we cut the deviation percentages in half in order to have the best lot to lot consistency in the industry for this powder. Another advantage of LT-32 is the fact that our Accurate 2015 can be blended with this powder if anyone wants to adjust the burn rate. 2015 is also manufactured on the machinery, has the same geometry but is about 10% slower that LT-32.

Just a note on Hodgdon's 8208. The 8208 that is being brought into the country is not being brought in for the benchrest market as most people believe. It is being brought into the country for military contracts and it just so happened that it worked in the PPC. It is being QC'd for those military contracts not for benchrest shooters. There is more money in the military side of selling powder. I work directly with the company using it for military applications. LT-32 is just the opposite. We developed this powder specifically for the 6mm PPC and it is QC'd in the 6mm PPC.

I can send you a sample if you would like.


Best regards,
Keith Anderson
Western Powders Ballistic Lab

I agree with the first paragraph, I have shot with Lou quite a few times at Benchrest match's in several states, at one particular match I was having a dreadful day and Lou borrowed me his Neil Jones powder measure filled with this LT-32 powder when it was still in the developmental stage. and even told me how much to load. Lou is a great guy and loves to tinker with everything to make the sport better.

As for the second paragraph it is not entirely true as I understand it. Lou Murdica was working with IMR trying to recreate the original 8208 that Benchresters love hence the name IMR8208XBR, I had an 8 pounder of the original lot and it shot fantastic in my 6ppc and I know many others that had the same opinion.
It was about that time that IMR told Lou to go F himself that they were changing the formula for the military contract they had just landed. It only took about 15min shooting the new lot to realize it was unfit for benchrest any longer. It was at this point that Lou started working with Western Powders.

When Norma makes MRP at the end of the day they sweep the floors and then send that to Alliant.

What I have heard and read, and again this differs from MD's experience, is that MRP is canister grade with 10% maximum variation, +/- 5% and that R22 is bulk grade with up to 20% variation, +/- 10%. This fits in with my own experience as I had one of the hot lots of R22 which I think was subject to a recall but I liked the extra velocity so I kept it. Good thing I didn't "splode" anything. This was when I was a hot rod teenager. Also when I compared the two years ago the MRP was darker, it could have been due to being fresher with more solvents as what I have on hand now is basically the same color but the MRP is more uniform.

Would love to know where you heard/read that RL-22 is allowed to vary +/- 10%.

Might also want to comment, concerning some previous posts from other folks, that variation in powder lots can be defined two ways, by pressure or velocity. Generally velocity varies somewhere around half a much as pressure with single-based powders, somewhat more with double-based.

It's been a very long time since I've had any MRP. I have not seen it for sale in my usual haunts and I guess I have not looked for it in many years. To be honest, I thought it had been discontinued a long time ago. But I have a few pounds of RL 22. It is one of the most accurate powders (H1000 too) in my 300 WM.

The bottom line for me is that I've not noticed any variance of burning rates for RL 22 in my 300 WM.

The 20% variation is I believe industry/military standard for bulk powders which are shipped by the train load. The reality is that even for bulk powders manufacturers try to hold it to a reduced variation. When whoever orders the powder receives it it is standard practice to blend lots back to a more uniform standard. But you already know all this. You took it literally as R22 has a 20% lot to lot variation, what I meant is it starts off that way. When it leaves the Alliant factory it is blended and more uniform.

When it leaves the factory it can vary up to 20% but by the time it is blended and repackaged most of that variation is reduced. But I will hold to my statement that MRP is held to higher standards to begin with. I have seen lot to lot variations first hand with R22 and though I have used less MRP it has all been very uniform.

This may be intermojet lore but look at each and the grain size almost always varies more with R22 even if the color is the same. Maybe I should say same powder different standards. I think the different retardant idea came from 6mm Br.com a usually fairly reliable source. This makes me want to call Ranshot (the current NORMA distributer) again to see if I get the same answer, chances are I won't.

Bulk grade is NOT labeled Reloder 22.

Apparently you missed my post where I talked to the head of Norma, and he admitted it was indeed the same powder a RL-22, but more consistent.

MD, does that sound to you maybe like self-serving coming from the head of Norma. "my powder is better than the other guys"

But I'll keep an eye out for MRP. There's gun shows coming up and maybe I'll find some.

I have used plenty of MRP over the years and have found it to be more consistent than Reloder 22.

I would bet that the difference between the two, in terms of pressure/speed, would be about the same as the difference between loads made when a container of either is first opened and loads made when it has sat, after opening, on a shelf for a few years.

Thanks for that answer. That means a lot more to me than the head of Norma saying it.

Well, JB, we've had this discussion before but I won't go there today.

But let's just review a few things said in this thread:

Norma guys says they are the same
Powder kernels color are not the same; some say yes, some say not. I say no & I have lots form both over various time periods
Norma & your experience say MRP is more consistent


So are they they same???????????

I say no from the appearance standpoint alone.MPR clearly meters better/easier for me through a Redding powder feeder.

I say yes from the performance standpoint & (my) load data.

Can't comment on the variability as I haven't checked it close enough to say.

But if there is real data from Norma, or anyone else claiming/showing measurably less variance with MRP, then to me, that is pretty conclusive that they are not (exactly) the same powders & that there is something different in them.

Does it matter? I don't think so, & I have enough of both for a long time.

MM

Same formulation, same coatings, same environmental protocols for production, different QC standards. So what Norma would reject as outside of their specs, Alliant would accept, as their specs are broader.

Years ago, I started using the old Weatherby Guide's load data that included a "factory equivalent load". All calibers listed used either H-4831 (I assume the old canister type) and MRP. When i discovered MRP and RL-22 were the "same", I proceeded to test all my Weatherby calibers, 340, 300, 7mm, 257 and 240 with both powders. loads, etc. There was NO difference outside what one expects regarding extreme spread, std deviation, etc. I have however, since switched to N-165 in the 340 (VV powders btw, are the CLEANEST BURNING I've ever experienced and also RL-23 in my 300 (same load) with same results.

As to color, I have different colors of H4350.

i really liked Reloader 22 but as has been posted i did get some odd nasty pressures so i switch to what the Berger reloading book had for the best powder for 257 Weather mag. performance Reloader 25 and my groups were even better now with good velocities too and much more consistent pressures too.

MidwayUSA says the MRP is discontinued. Norma site says it is back and better than ever.

MontanaMan,

Appearance of powders means less than it used to. As 5sdad mentioned, he's had different colors of H4350. I've had different batches of Varget with different colors. Also, my last batch of IMR 4350 (a couple pounds purchased a couple years ago in a local store) has SHORT-CUT granules, instead the "logs" many of us are used to--yet it results in the same basic velocities when used in my long-time IMR 4350 loads for various rifles. In my experience the granules of quite a few specific powder brands vary somewhat in color and size anymore from lot to lot, not just those examples.

I also just compared the granules from my present batches of Norma MRP and Reloder 22--which are different than those mentioned in my earlier comparison. That occurred around 5-6 years ago, and if I recall correctly those batches I were acquired at about the same time. The granules were indeed identical (I compared them with a magnifying glass),, as well as the velocity produced with the same bullet, case and primer in the same rifles. In fact, at the end of that test I was running short on both powders, so I dumped 'em both into the same canister (instead keeping two containers with a little powder in each) and made a note to get some more. At the time the MRP still came in a steel can.

I just checked the replacement batches of MRP and RL-22t. As I recall, I picked up the -22 on one of my next trips to a local store, as they generally had it in stock. But there wasn't any MRP in any local store, and it was a while before I could replaced it--with newer stuff in the plastic canisters they use now. I've been using both since for various handloading projects, and they still result in similar velocities in the same applications. I compared the granules and the MRP's are slightly thinner and paler, though both are about the same length. Were they produced at the same time? Dunno, but I would guess not.

Am still guessing MRP and 22 are the same powder, due both to my results and published data. A good example is comparing Norma's data for the .270 Winchester for MRP and 130- and 150-grain Nosler Partitions, with Nosler's data using RL-22. (Alliant's on-line data doesn't list RL-22 with 130 Partitions in the .270.) The maximum powder charges are both within .2 grains, and the velocities are very similar too, certainly within lot-to-lot variations and differences in test barrels.

Powder Valley didn't even list primers when I visited the site last night. I don't think the retailers are conveying whether the components are still made, just that they won't be available for a significant time.

Yeah, you may slip up on a can of powder every now and then. But you better pull the trigger quick, because it's not likely to be there when you check back.

Forget primers....

DF

I grabbed some online a couple weeks ago, and some locally. They didn't have the Varget/IMR4266 I want, so still must keep looking. Missed the boat on primers though. My brother bought some in November locally, got a few thousand. Those are the last I've heard of anyone buying any. Whenever I go into local businesses, they act like they've never heard of 'em: "Primers? What? No. No."

Yeah, whatever physical & appearance differences I've seen have not seemed to matter & like you, I just used them interchangeably over the years, mainly in 270's & 280's of which I have multiples in each caliber, & also in several 7 Mags & 338 Mags.

I always end up with the virtually same velocities from both & the same max loads in a given gun.

So, I dunno if they are different or not, & it really doesn't matter anymore, but as I said in the earlier post, the performance is the same & I've tested them both enough to feel OK using the same charges of either so I treat them as if they are the same. I've never seen any real spikes in the lots I've used either. I've always bought quite a bit at one time, so my number of lots vs the amount used is probably lower than many others.

And that encompasses RL-22 from when it 1st came out & MRP for the same rough time period up until now.....so for me, that time period would have started in the late 88-'89 until now. I have both powders in their old packaging, & both powders in their new packaging. I cannot recall what year MRP was introduced but I think it was in the mid-70's; RL-22 & 19 were introduced in 1988 & I stared using them all around that time.

MM

Sounds about right as MRP was brought out when they stopped making N205.

What happened to MRP2? It hasn't been replaced by another similar powder as far as I know. Is MRP2 the same as R25?

I started using MRP in 7mm Weatherby just wanting to try other powders and found that it produced excellent consistency in velocity and accuracy before I was aware of the RL22 kinship. 72.0 gr of MRP behind a 150 TTSX gets the job done! I have several pounds from the same lot # so I’m not working up other loads with it out of conservation. I put my .300 Weatherby on a RL26 diet. Happy Trails

They may be similar, but not the same. I use both powders for two 300 Win. I wish they were interchangeable but they're not. One rifle shoots MRP into one hole, the other RL 22 into one hole. Swap the powders and groups open up. Luckily I've got several poounds of each.

Dunno what replaced MRP2- had a bunch of that but traded it for 217.

Even lot-to-lot variations in the same powder can have that effect. That doesn't necessarily prove that they are not the same.

I have never experienced temperature sensitivity in MRP, both in my reloads and factory Weatherby ammunition. I have no experience with Reloader22.
NWT

The thing to remember about powders is that each kernel is probably different from the next kernel, not to mention that the fact that from day to day, each kernel is different from what it was yesterday, due to such factors as greater age, differing humidity and other meteorological conditions, the phase of the moon, and whether or not it got a good night's sleep. Given this, a load that was acceptable yesterday should probably be reduced 10% today and worked up as (unreliable) signs indicate.

And then we have RL-23 thrown into this mix.

Ever think about going in to politics?

No. Do you believe my answer is "equivocating"?

What I have always done in my writing is report what happened during my testing, and also report what various companies claim, though. I majored in biology in college, so know something about testing various factors. Also have been a full-time professional journalist for 38 years now, and not just in gun writing. Long ago learned to avoid making blanket statements, especially years later based on evidence only available at the time.

Just bustin your chops.

I suspected that might be the case!

Thanks MD and others for bringing this to light. May pick some up instead of R22 should supplies return some day.

All I can tell you is this: In every caliber that uses either MRP or RL-22, the results with the same load have been exactly the same.
257 Weatherby
7mm Weatherby
300 Weatherby
340Weatherby