I've hunted on an island off of Alaska off and on for a few years now. Being in thick Brown Bear county I've had to bring a "bear gun" to a "deer hunt". I've used my 300 Wby with 180 TSXs with success, but more frequently use my 338-06. Its a LH Rem 700 with a Douglas SS barrel, HS Precision stock. It shoots pretty good with most bullets.
My question is, what bullet would you use?
The criteria that's most important to me is:
1) Being able to stop a brown bear if need be.
2) Not blowing up a bunch of deer meat in the process. This is a meat hunt for the most part while enjoying the beauty of Alaska.
Here's what I have loaded up in the past for the 338-06. Shots are 100 yards or less. I try to shoot lungs/heart area if at all possible. No head shots.

A) 180 Nosler Accubond. Shoots light out at 100 yards. Most accurate combo I've come across yet with the 338-06. I've never shot anything with this bullet, but would use it for deer hunting in other areas.

B) 185 TSXs at 2950 fps. Shoots MOA or better. I've shot a few deer with it and it works great on deer. Might be a bit light on brown bears.

C) 225 Nosler Accubonds. 2720 fps avg. Very accurate. .75 inch or better @ 100 yds. I have shot pigs and deer with it, but it does do a bit of meat damage. One pig I shot had a baseball sized hole on the off side.

D) 250 grain Hornady RN Interlocks. I get 2550 fps and 1 MOA. I've never shot anything with with these bullets, but they are accurate.

E) 250 Sierra Game King. Also 1 MOA. 2500 fps, but again, I've never shot anything with them.

I've tried both 210 Partitions and 210 TTSXs, but strangely haven't got them to group well with my gun with a good combo of accuracy and velocity. But if I could get 2750 fps or better out of either I would probably lean toward one of these 210s.

Curious, what would you use?
Yaddio

Either will be a good choice but I'd try the 225 grain Swift A-Frame.

Disclaimer- I’ve never hunted brown bear. That being said it could be worth a shot to try the 225 TSX or the 250 Partition. Being heavier thus slower would limit meat damage and would ensure penetration should you need it. Speed wouldn’t matter too terribly much since you’d be taking shorter shots. Just my two cents.

I have found that mono metals cause less meat damage than C&C or bonded bullets out of my 338-06's.

I am a big fan of the 210gr T/TSX's but my rifles shoot them very well.

In your case, a 180-185gr mono would serve you well. My rifles just do not shoot those lighter weights as well as the 200gr class. If you are not comfortable with those try the 225gr mono's like stated above.

Yaddio
My opinion based on hunting a lot of large animals, but never a bear.
You cant shoot from the shoulder a large enough rifle to "stop" a bear. Aint happening. All you can do is stop the heart and lungs, then wait. How long ? A second or two or several minutes.
Forget about accuracy. Let me say this again in case I miss spelled it. Forget about accuracy. You mentioned 100 yards. I have never gutted a bear, but I'd guess a bears heart is at least four inches across and the lungs bigger. You need a load that will shoot inside four inches. Benchrest accuracy aint required here. What is required, is the ability to keep making hits until the bear dies. And make those shots fast and in the kill zone.
If it were me, based on taking a lot of buffalo, bison, eland, etc, and testing a lot of bullets in the Bullet Test Tube, I would use a 250 grain Partition or Barnes XXX. You shout be able to easily get 2500 fps, and that's enough.
And anybody who says a 30-06 aint entirely adequate for big bears, is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
Charlie

Yaddio,

The most interesting part about your post to me is where you say "shots are 100 yards or less," yet toward the end you say "I've tried both 210 Partitions and 210 TTSXs, but strangely haven't got them to group well with my gun with a good combo of accuracy and velocity." Am wondering how well you think a bullet has to group to kill deer at 100 yards.

Good point. I'll clarify. I'm usually satisfied with a rifle that I can get to shoot an inch or under at 100 yards. I realize that a less accurate rifle would suffice in this hunting area, but I can't bring myself to load 50 or 100 bullets that group at 2.5 MOA. For instance I got fantastic velocity with 210 TTSXs, (mid 2800s), and 760, but the groups were 2.5 inches. This would probably work fine in the area I'll be hunting in AK, but for open ground hunting at longer range for other areas and critters I lose confidence in a rifle that shoots 2.5 MOA.

Of those mentioned, I'd go with the 185 TSX or 250 Horny RN.

MD made a good point about accuracy under 100 yds. I've prolly shot 200 blacktail deer in the rainforest of SE Alaska. Average range probably about 40 yds. At-the-range accuracy doesn't mean doodly squat. How's your offhand shooting?

jI shoot the 250 NPT and NPT Gold in my .338 Winny and 200 TTSX and 250 NPT in my .35 Whelen.

Off-hand shooting can always be better. I do practice. While walking down trails in SE Alaska rainforests I occasionally stumble across a deer on the trail and shoot off-hand. The shots are never as accurate as shooting off of sticks, but so far so good.

[/quote]Either will be a good choice but I'd try the 225 grain Swift A-Frame.[/quote]

If I could find them that's probably what I would use. I have found H4350 and 225 grain bullets in a 338-06 to get good velocity and accuracy.

Carlis Hathcock made a lot of extremely long shots with his 2MOA rifle in Vietnam. Infact he is quite famous for those shots

Yaddio,
Did you play with COAL for the TTSXs? If not I might try that if you still have some bullets to play with.

There are few absolutes in reloading but I don't think I have ever had a TTSX not group better than 2.5MOA, but I have found they do like some jump.

I do have some 210 TTSXs left. Plenty of brass to play with too. I will play around with seating depth and see what I get.

BTW, with a max load of RL 15 and the 210 Partitions I only got 2650 fps. Accuracy was OK. But, I couldn't see loading these up when I was getting 2720 fps avg with the 225 Accubonds.

Carlis Hathcock made a lot of extremely long shots with his 2MOA rifle in Vietnam. Infact he is quite famous for those shots [/quote]

I read that book years ago. Great read. Maybe I'm just a perfectionist when it comes to accuracy. What do they call it? Looneyism?

Have you tried Hammer bullets https://hammerbullets.com/ I have found them to be accurate in my 375 Ruger and 3 30-06's and have harvested a couple of black bears. I think you would get two holes even on a brown bear unless you were shooting end to end. I like two holes when trying to kill an animal.t

One thing you may want to think about is you shooting stature should yuo be shooting at a charging bear from close range. It is easy to shoot south of the vital area of a charging bear when you are shooting from a standing position, a kneeling position will provide you with a geometry that is not changing as fast as when you are standing.

Just me two cents,
wade

Yaddio,

I have seated monolithic bullets up to .1 inch deeper than "close to the lands" before finding the sweet spot.

Thanks MD, I'll keep trying with seating depth. I might run out of bullets, but I'll keep trying, LOL. BTW, I ordered GG3 the other day. Looking forward to reading it.

I have never tried them. I have a bunch of bullets on my shelf now to try first. Thanks for the tip on stature. Hopefully none of us will ever be in that position.

Id take an 2moa rifle anywhere in the world and hunt it no issue. If i were hunting deer on the archipeligo where theres the highest population of brown bears i would be using a 250gr Nosler Partition in any 338. I know of this area and its thick, dark, and lotsa bears.

Easy, 160 TTSX.

At close ranges it will open the widest and create the largest wound channel of the monos (killing bear quicker), and still likely exit.

Edit: the 160 has been very accurate out of my smaller 338. I wish I would have tried them in my 338-06. Should easily be near 3100 fps. My second choice would be a heavier cup and core, or softer front bullet. Again, maximizing damage to kill as quickly as possible would be my goal. My last choice in this scenario would be any heavy for caliber mono.

Based on my actual experience of killing and seeing killed a bunch of brown bears I say use a quality 250 (NP, TSX of AF) at 2400-2500. They open plenty wide, and just as (or perhaps even more importantly) they will penetrate much better than any varmint weight bullet. This is of particular importance when you consider a defensive shooting will require a frontal shot through bone and muscle. Even if such a bullet is a 3 MOA performer out off your rifle, use it. You'll still have a genuine 200 yard deer gun and for woods/muskeg hunting that's plenty.

Thanks pabucktail, do you have any experience with either the 250 Sierra or 250 Hornady RN?

I was fortunate enough to spend 3 years on Active Duty with the Coast Guard in Kodiak. MUCH of that time was spent afield in various pursuits. From picking Salmon Berries to jump shooting ducks on creeks and ponds to deer hunting high and low to bear hunting to hiking to mountain biking to bank and wade fishing. At first I didn't go anywhere without my Redhawk 5 1/2 inch 44 magnum on my hip. Over time, I came to realize two things that shaped my behavior. Bear don't get to live when they have close encounters with humans (unless they are in a National Park where they are highly protected) so they are going to see or smell you well ahead of time and stay away. Second, unless you are an ace, most of the places you would encounter one, you are not coming from holster to target in time to make any difference.

I ended up ditching carrying any gun for my fishing trips and my casual hikes. If I was going after ducks, I took my shotgun and that was it. If I was going after deer, I took whichever rifle I wanted to take. 243, 257 Roberts, 30-06, 35 Whelen and 45-70. In some cases I chose stout bullets. In some cases the rifles showed a decided preference for a non-premium deer bullet. That's what I used.

The threat of brown bears is overblown, Romanticized even. I get that but, I don't think they warrant much worry at all. That's not to say you should do what I did, but rather just do what you are going to do, and don't sweat the minutiae. If you were really concerned, the best preparation you could make would be to practice snap shooting. I saw very few bear while plying the wilds in the three years I was there. The overwhelming majority were at or near the dump.

Have fun! Post pics.

Paul ,thanks for the info. I've been to that Coast Guard station before. Was salmon fishing along the roadway on Kodiak. I would have loved to have been stationed there. I'm retired Navy, so I went on base and used their MWR cooler to store my salmon.

I've been deer hunting up there on other occasions on another island in SE Alaska. I've seen brown bear sign, poop and prints, and that's all it takes for me to carry a big enough gun. Just makes sense. Most of the guys I hunt with bring 338 Win Mags. What I'm looking for is a bullet that will kill a brown bear, (if need be), and also not blow up too much deer meat. Curious about the 250 gr Sierra and Hornady experiences especially. Just fishing for ideas/suggestions from fellow hunters. We do carry loaded guns to the outhouse at night. Not a bad habit when we have 5 or 6 deer hanging from the meat pole just a few yards away.

I don't, as I've never found a .338 of any flavor I just couldn't live without. Regardless of caliber, for your purposes I wouldn't bother messing around with lesser designs when such better ones are available so easily. I used a .375 H&H for years with 300 gr partitions before switching to the 9.3x62 with 286 gr partitions eight years ago. Meat destruction with both on deer, even on raking shots, was much less than I experienced with the .270, '06, .300 mags, or .243, and performance on brown bears has been outstanding. Make up a practice load with the Sierra or Hornady if you want, but for hunting anywhere you might get in a bear fight please remember this isn't 1950 anymore and use a great bullet.

What about Nosler Partition bullets? That’s what I’d like in bear county.

Partitions work great. Here's a selection of 300gr .375s and 286gr 9.3s pulled from various brown bears, mountain goats, and moose. Deer have yet to stop one. Ranges for the bullets pictured vary from 12 to just over 300 yards.

A Bear Claw bullet would be good too, if you could find some.

Nice looking bullets pabucktail.

Hanko, 250 grain Partitions aren't exactly growing on trees either.

My wife and I both hunted Afognac island three or four times.. I carried my .375 H &H with 260 grain partitions and she carried a .308 Win loaded with 180 partitions.

No shots fired at bears. As you would expect both the ..375 & .308 worked fine on deer.


I did kill a Brown bear years ago with the .375 and 300 gr. partitions.

One shot at close range and it ran 15 feet and died.


Lefty C

I was thinking 210 grainers. Most every thing is hard to find.

I've got 210 Partitions. I maxed out at 2650 with RL 15. I didn't test much more with them after that. Accuracy was OK, was just hoping for more velocity.
I think I'll work on the 210 TTSXs some more. I got some astonishing velocities with 760, (2850 or so avg), with 2" groups. I'd settle for 2750 with decent accuracy. I think I'll play along with seating depth and see what I can get. Hopefully I hit pay dirt before I run out of bullets. I believe a 210 TTSX would handle just about anything in North America.

There is 210 Partitions for sale in classifieds right now. Three boxes.

Thanks, hanko.

If I were going to use a bullet in that weight-range .338 for brown bear protection I'd prefer a monolithic. The 210 Partition is a fine bullet, but have seen one stop in an average-size whitetail buck on a rear-quartering shot.

In Partitions, the 250 would be my choice over either the 210 or 225.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yeah, I'd use a 4 moa rifle and rock on. Ha ha. Take that and amplify that by quite a bit when shooting offhand and you may have a 12 moa rifle/load. Thats exactly what I'd want if confronted by a big brown bear.. How much do you stupid fu cks actually shoot? Charlie...

No gun writer but the 185 TSX’s of the ones you mention or also 250-gr No’s Part’s..I’ve only stopped a couple TTSX’s, TSX’s out of about twenty game animals.

That's real nice collection. I bet there are some great memories wrapped up in those slugs.

Cheers,
Rex

Your courteous reply adds so much to this discussion, thanks! Please go take a nap, then have a nice snack so you can tell us of the experiences by which you came to these conclusions.

Yeah, there sure are. There’s everything from time with dear friends, to meat for the family, to not getting mauled represented in that pile of lead and gilding metal.

250 NP.

At about 2,400 fps in a 338-06, you will get good penetration, but not fast enough to lose meat, on deer or bear..

That's what I use to hunt Kodak for Sitka deer. Classic Mod. 70 FWT. Originally. 270 ,had a Dougless #2 , chambered for .338-06 installed NE ramp front sight. Use a Redfield
Little Blue screwed on back of Leopold QR mounts with 1x5 Leopold. I shoot 250gr NP. After 30- 40 deer ,most DRT and very little shot up meat ,I see no reason for any other bullet. I haven't had to shoot a BB with it and hope I don't have to.But it sure is comforting to carry. --- Mel
BTW crony says 2625. With a book load from what I hear about the Crony it may or may not be accurate

When I lived in Alaska (for 27 years) I often carried an M7600 in .338-06 when hunting Sitka blacktails on Kodiak and surrounding islands. The Nosler 210 Partition was my preferred bullet; Bob Hagel claimed it gave performance equal to the 250 NP on moose and bear, and the few I shot with it gave plenty of penetration with good expansion. Of course on the little deer it was more than ample. Then again I wouldn’t refuse to use the 250s...



.

pabucktail,

I read through the entire thread again, and can't find any mention of 4 MOA accuracy before this one....

You’re correct John. One interesting thing about the ‘fire is how people tend to interject thoughts which often have no bearing on the topic at hand or as in this case, are hyperbolic ranting loosely based on the discussion topic. There’s a reason people don’t communicate like this in real life.

250s shoot really good thru my 338-06. 760 with the Hornady RN, RL 19 with the Sierra's. Both 2500 fps + with 1 MOA. I think I'll look for some Partitions and load them up for this Fall. Good suggestion above was to use the Sierra's and Hornady's for some practice and shoot the Partitions for hunting. I've got 760 and H414 hanging around for plenty of fodder.

About the negative comments mentioned. I don't have room in my head for stuff like that.... won't let it in. Too many other good things to think about in this short life.

You are way over thinking this. I see a couple hundred rifles a year on Kodiak- hunters bring them in the hangar for their trips out.- only a handful has 338 or larger bores. Never heard a single story past couple of years where a deer hunter DLP killed a bear. I went deer hunting a dozen times last season. I carried a 308. Year before a 6.5-284, year before 260AI. First time i went i took a 300 H&H.

Bottom line, just take your deer rifle with shooting deer in mind. Any of the bullets you've mentioned are fine. I'm carrying my 340 Wby this season. Since many deer shots are 400-500 yards i tried to find some reasonably accurate loads. I settled on 225 TTSX@ 3150.

I loaded some 210 TSX and at 3600 fps they weren't as accurate as the 225s. Since a moose and grizzly hunt is on the agenda i decided just to try the copper bullets this year. Normally I'm not a huge fan but they do reduce meat damage.

If i were shooting a 338-06, i would take which ever 210 shot best.
.

Yea, maybe over thinking, but having fun doing it.

Dennis,

Good to know you have so much experience stopping charging brown bears. Which is what this thread started out about.

Sorry, but I couldn't help it. But I have the advantage of talking a lot with Phil Shoemaker, who has as much experience in that particular discipline as any Alaskan outfitter I know of today. (Also hunted and fished with him a few years ago, when we encountered many brown bears, one of which was pushed within 15 feet of us by a nitwit fisher-person. Oh, and have also killed a "brown bear" in Alaska, according to the B&C area definitions, though they disagree with B&C's.)

I also happen to be friends will a well-known gun writer who hunted deer on Kodiak some years ago. He used a .300 Weatherby Magnum, just in case a bear came in on him. He used two different loads, a 150 Partition for deer, and a "back-up" load with the 200 Partition in case of an encounter with the brown bear. He killed a deer--and a BIG brown bear did try to claim it. The 150 Partitons did NOT penetrate the bear's shoulder--but the guide's bigger rifle did.

Have shot quite a few bigger animals in both North America and Africa, and there is a real difference between shooting them broadside or angling away, and through the heavier bones in their front ends--which is generally where charging animals have to be shot.

This place would die a quick death if we didn't overthink things. It is half the fun.

Apparently you and my old friend Dennis think that "over-thinking" means never considering possibilities, however remote they may seem to to you after relatively little experience.

Have hunted a few places around the world that held lots of possibilities, and once in a while they happened. Would rather be a little "over-prepared" than not.

The Island I hunt has a very high population of brown bears. I've seen the signs. Enormous poop piles, big prints, etc. They're there. We're mouth calling in blacktails which could easily call in a bear since they sound like fawn bleats in distress. We have gut piles and deer on the meat pole. We hunt in pairs and keep a good watch around us while gutting our deer. The cabin we stay in has one of those books that visitors can write in experiences that following visitors can read. Several entries have bear sightings near the cabin. Walking out to an outhouse late at night carrying something that can possibly stop a bear makes for a much more pleasant late night outhouse experience. Coming home with meat that you can eat right up to the hole is satisfying as well.

Concerning the partitions, I frequently see talk of the 210's and 250's, but rarely see the 225's mentioned. I would think that would be a great do it all bullet for the .338-06, no?

I don't know how it is with the deer in the area you hunt, but the blacktails from Kodiak are easily the best game meat I have eaten. Very different from piney woods whitetail.

I completely understand the OPs mindset. There is nothing at all wrong with what he's doing. I just wanted to plunk down a relatively insignificant data point and share my experiences in coastal AK. I enjoy chatting about it just as the OP does. I enjoy reminiscing and dreaming of returning. It's a special place.

Yep, Kodiak is definitely special! Have been there several times.

Yea Paul, the meat is among the best I've had. Right up there with Michigan doe meat if you ask me.

Besides the tasty meat, its also about the experience of stepping out of an Otter or Beaver float plane and watching it fly away and realizing that you're truly in a desolate, isolated place. No phones, no roads, no cops, no ambulance, no nothing. You're completely in nature's grasp. Walking on trails thru the wet woods, seeing the green moss everywhere, the tall trees, low clouds, mist over the lakes. It's really a fantastic hunting experience.

Teeder, not sure about the 225 Partitions, but I have used 225 Accubonds at 2720 fps on deer and pigs. I found them to be a bit more destructive than I'd like for deer. Just my limited experience. Accurate as hell though with H4350. Assuming they have somewhat similar performance I reached out for something a little more meat friendly on deer.

Had to go back to beginning to see what this was all about.

Would take a bet that more big bears have been killed sub 3000 fps 30 calibers than everything else.

As in 30-40, 30-03, 30-06 and 300 H&H with the crappy old C&C bullets from back when.

A 338-06 with Swift, Barnes or Partitions will kill anything that walks, N.A.

IMO a 375 H&H with 270 Barnes would be a better choice, but I'm biased.

If I still had a 375 I would strongly consider bringing it.

Last guy I knew that killed a Brown spent 30 grand by the time everything was done.

A grand for a 375 is a very small percentage.

This load shot well in my 338-06 with 210gr Partitions.54.0gr Varget,Win case,WLRM primer

It appears several people who have responded didn't read or comprehend the OP's first post. He's not planning on hunting a brown bear, but carrying enough gun for a brown bear "emergency" while hunting deer. Which is a very different thing, both financially and defensively.

Got a 9.3x62mm - specifically for hunting in bear country.

270 gr. Speer for the hunt, and 286 gr. Swift A-Frame for the bear.

Both to ~ 2400 fps.
...because it's the hits that count.
(and I'm a bit of a recoil wuss)

For the .338-06?

250 gr. A-Frame at 2500 fps.




GR

You mean you're going to quickly switch from a 270 Speer round to a 286 A-Frame when a bear charges?

The best thing I’ve found after living here awhile is to just hunt deer with a bear capable rifle. For the most part this has meant the .375 or 9.3x62, with some .45-70 and .444 as well. On giant clue is that my latest rifle for roaming around here is a .416 Taylor. Take note, I did not move down in caliber! These rifles have all been used with a properly constructed bullet, since when things go wrong it happens pretty fast. I think the OP is tracking with the 250 gr Nosler concept.

Bolt rifle.

8>)

Just load and have both available.

Bears aren't everywhere.




GR

I see 9.3 X 62 stuff pop up on on the Campfire from time to time, (like above). Seems like it fits in the dead charging brown bear / minimal deer meat damage catagory. It'd be fun to do a head to head comparison between the 338-06 with a 250 grain bullet vs. 9.3 X 62 with a 286 grain bullet. Do you see much difference? Velocities, sectional densities, practicalities, versatility. Just pondering....

The old Springfield 03-A3 I started hunting with in 1965 succumbed to poor care when my nephew had it for several years. After I purchased it back from my brother I sent it to Jess for a bore to 338-06 and put a new stock on it, a two position wing safety by Jim Kobe and a new bolt handle from Talley. Before long it will get some iron sights from NECG and my manly 17 year old grand son will take possession of it. The bullet will be either the 210 Nosler Partition or the 210 Barnes TTSX. This will be and all around Alaskan load capable of cleanly taking any Alaskan animal, except the big bears out to 500 yards, once my grand son learns the trajectory.

It will do a bang up job on our little island deer, just don't aim for the shoulder.. If one has a run in with a bear and your life is threatened, shoot him and keep shooting at what ever you can see if he is still moving. Most rifles based on the 30-06 case hold 4-5 rounds in the magazine. If a couple of those 210 Partitions or X bullets in the right place does not keep one safe, their not being put in the right place. The 338-06 is just one of those rounds, like the .35 Whelen, that gives up very little to bigger "magnums" when it comes to making gut piles.

If I was starting over, I would build a very light weight 338-06 and hope it shot the 210 grain Barnes TTSX or 210 Nosler Partition well. My custom Mod. 70 .338 Winny is a wonderful rifle/cartridge combo with the 225 grain TTSX. But after 46 years of using the .338 Winny on Alaskan critters I can think of no gut pile I could not of made with a good 210 grain bullet from a 338-06. The shooter, my self included, is usually the weakest link!

Was ready to get a M700 re-bored to .338-06, when the new 9.3x62mm Ruger Africans showed up.

So I have no 1st hand knowledge of terminal ballistics for the .338-06.


They have ~ the same SD, BC goes to the .338.

Anecdotally, > .35 appears to transfer energy a little better, though that may go against some penetration.


It would be for others here to determine whether the bear would notice.

Would be interested in a test as well.




GR

Excellent choice.

Svelte, handy, and field accurate.


Very pleased.




GR

Nice looking rifle!

"Got a 9.3x62mm - specifically for hunting in bear country. 270 gr. Speer for the hunt, and 286 gr. Swift A-Frame for the bear."

Garandanimal,

OK....

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, a good friend took a .300 Weatherby to Kodiak to hunt deer and brown bear--and brought handloads with 150-grain Partitions for deer (he was hunting where a 300+ yard shot was very possible), and 200-grain Partitions for the bear. He shot a deer at relatively close range--and a few seconds later a BIG brown bear charged out of the brush to claim the deer.

He had another 150 in the chamber, which did not penetrate through the shoulder into the chest at such close range--not surprising since the muzzle velocity was around 3500 fps. The shot did discourage the bear enough to turn into the brush, but he and his guide had an interesting time finishing it off.

My experience with the 270 Speer is that its a decent deer bullet--at moderate velocity--but not as durable as a 150-grain Partition at 3500 fps.

While I have used up to 5 different bullets to shoot different animals in Africa with the same rifle, I was hunting plains game, not Cape buffalo. When hunting where a MUCH bigger animal might show up suddenly, it seems more sensible to use a bullet that will do the job on either kind of game. Which is exactly why I used the 250-grain Nosler Partition the one time I hunted Kodiak for deer. I already knew it would kill deer--and penetrate sufficiently on 1500-pound animals.

Following logic is a lost srt for many, these days

Sound advice, JB.

Was a little tongue-n-cheek, but the point was:

Got the rifle for bear country, (so I wouldn't have a .270 WIN in my hands).

Got the A-Frames for the bears, just in case.

IF - I was worried about bears, or, hunting where I could reasonably expect to encounter one?

The A-Frames would be takin' the game as well.
(Or, the 285 gr. Oryx, but they don't seem to punch through like the A-Frames.)

Situational awareness, I guess, would dictate the load.

No expert on bears - but I know what don't feel right.

Big hogs in the piney woods thickets taught me that.

Open spaces are a different matter.


Thanks again.




GR

My point is: What do you expect to gain by using two different bullets? A few cents a bullet? Or do you somehow suspect an A-Frame won't kill a deer?

My other point is that even in "open country" on Kodiak's south slopes, a brown bear can be anywhere. The odds are small that you'll encounter one, but they have indeed learned to "come to a shot." Which is exactly what happened when my friend shot his buck.

What do you mean by "situational awareness"? Do you mean you can feel whether a bear is nearby, or tell from tracks and other sign?

I have spent plenty of time in grizzly country, encountering them (in alphabetical order) Alaska, Alberta, British Columbia, Montana, Nunavut and Northwest Territories, and Wyoming. Have encountered so many I long ago lost count, but there have been hundreds.

Some were only "revealed" by tracks they left in camp during the night, including a couple within a few feet of my head. Several have been sudden encounters at very close range, as in less than 20 feet, including bears that were just suddenly there.

I tend to have considerable situational awareness in grizzly country (and Cape buffalo country), but still get surprised now and then. That's because Nature is often surprising.


.

I can visualize it now, "bear charges, OH [bleep] I HAVE TO CHANGE BULLETS NOW"

First off - I shoot the Speer load better. But then, this is a new cartridge for me.

Am reasonably adroit at assessing situations, as there are no personal maulings or close calls that weren't dealt with properly, having spent a fair portion of my life in the woods.

What others do - is a result of their assessments and decisions, not mine.


Appreciate the thought provocation and anecdotes, though.

Was a big step just to up-gun from the .270/150 gr.


Also considered the M1 Rifle and either 168 gr. TSX or 200 gr. Partitions.

Eight-and-a-"ping".




Which brings up the possibility of a mixed magazine load.

Speer on top, followed by the rest of the mag w/ A-frames, given open ground.




GR

Like the "How many spare magazines of ammo do you carry for your EDC pistol" argument, It depends on where I am, or where I'm going.

It may come to pass that the A-Frames are worth not havin' to fool w/ extra ammo.

But, at this point, have a pile of Speer bullets and only a handful of A-Frames, and as I shoot the Speer load better, good hits on game are worth the consideration.




GR

"First off - I shoot the Speer load better. But then, this is a new cartridge for me"

You apparently believe that a more accurate shot into a bear's shoulder at, say, 20 yards allows a cup-and-core bullet penetrate deeper than a quality bonded bullet. Good to know.

Or just shoot 18ogr TTSXs out of that 300 Weatnerby and be done with it..

Now I embarrassed to have suggested there might be a little overthinking going on in this thread.

I've lost track, was it decided what bullet the OP should use out of a .338-06 or is he using something different now because it's not big enough?

I think it was decided that he should use a 9.3x62.

I still stand by my original post that a 200-210gr mono would be my choice. I have used them on deer, antelope and elk.
Do not tear up up the smaller animals and all the penetration one would need with bone breaking ability.

Bumping up to heavier bullets, a Partition, A-Frame or even an Interlock would work.

When I have used Partitions, Interlocks and Ballistic silvertips in the 200-210gr range, they do cause meat damage in deer.

I certainly would not even entertain the idea of carrying two different loads. KISS

That's because your not an idiot

Not to cause thread drift, because that would be terrible, but what is the lightest .338 mono that would be the equivalent of a 250 PT?

In my experience that would be heaver than many people might believe. Have not only taken (and seen taken) a lot of game with various monos, but have run a bunch of penetration tests in various kinds of media. One of the things discovered is that heavy-for-caliber Partitions penetrate very well.

One example was a test run with my old friend Richard Mann using his wax-based Test Tubes some years ago. We were testing 9.3mm bullets of various brands and weights, and before we started I bet him the 286 Partition would out-penetrate the 250 TSX. He was a little doubtful, but that's what happened.

My guess, based on some experience, is that a .338 mono would probably have to weigh at least 210 grains to penetrate as deeply as the .338 250 Partition, and maybe even 225 grains.

But would also note that lead-cored bullets, of whatever kind, don't tend to exit as often as monolithics. probably because the more rounded mushroom (which is even wider in bonded lead-cores) doesn't cut hide in the same way as the sharp petals on monos. But even when they don't exit, lead-cores tend to do more damage inside than monos.

Ouch! A low blow!


Speaking of overthinking things, the 30-06 I used in AK last year shot Trophy Bonded Tip 180's fast and much more accurately than any Partition, so that's what I took for moose. I wondered whether I should bring a few 200gr Partitions or a Mono load for meat packing or general carry once I tagged out. As it turned out, no shots were fired , so it never mattered. Brown bears, however, were seen every day and I still think the concept was sound. I plan to try again soon.

Not a low blow at all just a factual statement.

Oh, I've used two (or more) bullets on one hunt before myself. As I noted elsewhere, have used up to 5 different 156-160 grain bullets in a 7x57 during an African plains game hunt. The handloads all shot to the same place at 100 yards, so I used different bullets to see how each worked. Turned out they all worked--within their limits. Did not shoot anything bigger than warthog with the 160-grain Sierra GameKing, or anything smaller than kudu with the 160 TSX. But my favorite all-around bullet turned out to be the 156 Norma Oryx, which combined sufficient penetration on wildebeest with quicker-killing on lighter game such as impala and springbok, probably due to opening up widely and making a bigger hole.

Also used three different bullets from a .375 H&H on another safari, all 300 grain: Fail Safe, Nosler Partition and Speer Grand Slam tungsten-core solids. The game taken included impala, warthog, tsessebe, red lechwe, kudu, and Cape buffalo. Used the Partition on everything except the buffalo, but it would have worked fine there too, though might not have exited on the broadside chest shot, like the Fail Safe did. Only used the solids for finishing shots. to avoid tearing up hides or meat.

But when sneaking around herds of buffalo kept a Fail Safe in the chamber--which also would have also worked fine on an impala. Just like a Swift A-Frame would work fine on an Alaskan blacktail or brown bear.

Exactly. You weren't trying to switch bullets in case of a charge

Not what I said.

For game, the Speer, for me, at present, is the better load, because I shoot it better.

The A-Frames - are for when bears may be a problem.

In which case they will either be readily available, or already loaded in the chamber, depending on the situation.

Subject to change, as I become more familiar w/ the rifle.




GR

I owned three 338-06 rifles in the past and I have made a few dozen of them for customers. I like the cartridge a LOT. I sold my last one because the man didn't value $100 bills as much as he valued the rifle and kept laying them down until I said yes. I said I'd make another for myself, but so far I have not. Still, the 338-06 is a shell I have a great deal of respect for. Because I now have a 9.3X62 I have not felt any "need" to replace the 338-06, but I still may just because the shell works so well and is easy to load for, and easy on the shoulder in comparison to the power it give me.

Because I live and hunt in Wyoming and big bears are common I also find much of my deer and elk hunting is done in the bears "back-yard". So I load "Elk/Bear bullets" for my guns and just shoot deer with them if I have a deer tag. Even if a tough bullet that only opened up half-way it still kills deer fine. Some run 20-30 years, but are easy to find with the blood trails they leave. In my 338-06 I found the 210 grain Nosler partitions and the 225 Grain Partitions did an excellent job on all the game I shot with them, and at ranges of 200 and under they opened very well on deer (Antelope too) Yet the ability to break big bones and still go deep and exit elk was common. I never shot a grizzly with one, but I would have if the need was thrust upon me and I carried that ammo with full confidence in it, knowing what I had seen it do on elk and in one case, on a moose. (with a 225 grain Nosler Partition.)

The 180-210 grain ranges are thought of as "light" for the 338 bore size, but the 200 and 220 gain bullets are large in the 30-06 and the honest truth is that the 30-06 was and often still is the most commonly used cartridge for killing grizzlies.

I do not feel under-armed around grizzlies when I carry one of my 30-06s or my 8X57 as long as I have the correct bullets in the ammo. If you carry a gun for defending yourself against a bear you must acknowledge that no bear is dangerous until it can touch you, and the part that comes first is the front of the bear. So the parts that you need to hit are close and also close to the skin of the target. I do like full pentation, but to break the skull, neck, spine or shoulders of an aggressive bear you don't have to make the bullet go through 4 feet of meat and bone first. It hits the part that needs to be hit first. Destroying the vitals and then having the bullet break through the pelvis after the front is his it never a bad thing, but the front of the bear is what you hit first, and if the bullet don't break up on hair, hide muscle and bone, you can kill bears fine with "only" 20-24 inches of penetration. More never hurts, but the largest part of the damage is done up front and it's going to be close, (25 yards and less, sometimes a lot less) or you are not actually defending yourself.

Back in the days when grizzlies were common in the Rockies and big magnums were not, men who understood used bullets that "went deep" because they did not break up. Not just in the Rockies of American either but in Africa and India and Australia too. Look at the use of the 6.5X54 M/S, the 7X57, 8X57, 30-40 Krag, 303 British 35 Winchester, 333 Jeffery, 318 W/R 45-70 and the 30-06 with it's wonderful 220 grain bullets. Extreme velocity was not the focus, but bullet construction was, to all that understood.

Coming back to the 338-06, I see it as an American modern version of the 333 Jeffery and the 318 Westly Richards, both of which were very well received and respected in Africa in the 20s through the 50s, and to be an equal to those old shells is a very good place to be. The 333 was available with 300 grain bullets and was very popular for close shots at game up to 2000 pounds with that bullet. Yet the 250 grain bullets were more popular overall. The 318 W.R. also shot 250s.

So you want the bullet that you shoot worse for a beat charge. Gotcha

Your misunderstanding of the argument seems to imply that you are, in fact, an authority on idiot.

Thanks for your expertise.




GR

No, you don't gotcha.

But thanks, anyway.




GR

Yeah, I did

Thanks again.




GR

You're a real Jerry Lewis type

Not in your class, but will work diligently to prevent it, anyway.




GR

Apparently you are an expert now in the field of idiocy, your diligent pursuit has paid of for you

Considering the source, that's high praise indeed.

Thank for nothin'.




GR

Thanks you continue to prove my points

You didn't need help.




GR

I sure didn't but you persisted anyway

I once knew an idiot who always acted like a moron. I told him he was just putting on airs.

I'm like that with the needy.




GR

As hard as you try to be humerus its about as idiotic as your swhiching to a less accurate bullet during a bear charge
You reach a new milestone on each endeavor

So you also write fiction.

Fascinating.




GR

Weak, very weak. Put more effort into it

You don't appear to be worth it.

Again, thanks for nothin'.




GR

I want to hear more about switching tona load that you claim to not shoot as well (during a charge mind you) for a grizzly charge

The laughter never stops with you

That's your story, not mine.

Hope it works out for you.




GR

Whats the matter you memory fading?

The hilarity never ends with you

Reading for Content - is a skill.

You may want to consider acquiring it.




GR

Garandimal,

Have you ever read the book OF BENCH AND BEARS: ALASKA'S BEAR HUNTING JUDGE, by Richard Folda. I suspect you might like, since Folda took a lot of bears (black, grizzly and brown) in his life, and guided fellow hunters to quite a few more. He started with a Remington Model 8 in .35 Remington, but eventually started using a Garand, both of which he liked due their quick repeat shots.

Logic you are defeceicnt in, you may want to improve. But I doubt you could

Would work exceptionally well

Have not, but will look for it, thanks.

Have read accounts of the M1 rifle though, as a truck rifle, used on bears.

A little heavy for the mountains, but hard to argue about the firepower, and it's easy to shoot rapid fire accurately in a pinch.

You think a .30-06/168 gr. TSX at ~ 2800 fps. would do it for a dual purpose load, or something heavier?
(mentioned b/c I don't reload for the .30-06, and have those on hand)

Use'em in the M1 rifle in the thickets, for big hogs, and it works well.

Thanks JB.




GR

Thank you.




GR

Still taking the 338-06 this year.

Some run 20 to 30 years!!! WOW!!! Well, at least they're easy to find.
Just kidding....

So, did you two get any on your shoes?

It has been awhile, but the last deer hunt I did on Montague Island resulted in four deer and no bears. My rifle was a 30-06 and 165 grain Nosler Partitions, plenty of the "right stuff" for a brown bear and deer.

Excellent.
If the border opens up, I'll be taking mine to Newfoundland again with either 225 or 250 PT's.

If I draw an elk tag, I will be using one of my 338-06's.

What do you feed your 338-06?

I have owned 338-06's off and on for over 20 years.

Have seen/used 180gr NAB, 200gr Hornady Interlock (now discontinued), 200gr NAB, 200gr Ballistic silvertip, 210 gr NPt, 210gr TSX on critters.

My current two rifles are set up for the 200gr NAB and Ballistic silvertip, and 210gr TTSX. Have not killed anything with the TTSX yet.
Have played with a number of different powders, but Varget is my preferred.

He is going deer hunting, not guiding brown bears. My point is to hunt deer, not bears. Only taking a 458 to Africa in case you bump into a lion is about the same thing.

IF he were trying to STOP brown bears i would suggest a 458 and lots of shooting practice.

I stand by my original recommendation for his 338-06, a 210 either Barnes or Nosler.

My buddy is coming up to hunt this year and in fact is bringing his 338-06- loaded with 210 TSX

I seem to recall the whole point of this is the OP will be hunting deer amongst brown bears, and so he wants to equip himself with the ability to "STOP" them in case of a worst case scenario while also not destroying a bunch of meat. Both of these prerequisites yell out for a 250gr partition or A frame. A 250 will dig deeper and ruin less meat.

Yaddio, what island are you hunting?

What Charlle and MD said. In 50 years of hunting in Griz/Brown bear country, I've never shot one, tho there have been times....

Nor do I desire to do so.

I had a less than desirable experience with 210 Partitions- once - on moose (338 WM). I no longer consider anything under 225 gr for my .338 WM - 250's preferred. Well, maybe 210's for alpine/ high arctic tundra for sheep or caribou. But I'm packing something different for that.

Admittedly, I've no experience with th .338-06 (but when has that stopped anyone on the forum? . )

250's work well and don't do an excessive amount of meat damage. Premiums if you prefer, tho I've largely gone back to C&C for my purposes.

My current reloads are Hornady 250 gr RN- MOA. I was impressed with the 250 Trophy Bonded factory (Fed Safari?) premiums I once used. Excellent penetration, modest expansion on a moose shot quartering away. Entrance just in front of the right rear ham, exit off-side shoulder blade.

Heavy slow loads tend to do less meat damage than high energy lighter loads - and will likely work better as a bear stopper at close range.

IMO- which is worth what you paid for it.

"I had a less than desirable experience with 210 Partitions- once - on moose (338 WM)."

What happened?

This has been discussed numerous times on this forum. If you want to stop anything, shot placement is critical.

CRS, would you tell more about that green/stainless rifle on top? That looks like a thing of beauty with death written all over it. Thanks.

Yeah, shot placement is critical--but in the case of a charging animal the bullet must be able to penetrate to the vitals, often with less-than-perfect shot placement, because by definition the animal is moving. Phil Shoemaker did this on a big brown bear with a 9mm handgun and 147-grain Buffalo Bore hard-cast bullets--but it took every shot the little handgun held, and even Phil said he would have rather used his .44 Magnum revolver--or better yet his .458 Winchester Magnum. But probably the major point is that Phil has stopped many charging bears, and not only knows where to hit them, but what's required for penetration. He thoroughly tested the 9mm load for penetration before carrying it in the field, instead of guessing how it might perform.

As I mentioned earlier, I have seen the 210-grain Partition stop inside an average whitetail--on a rear-quartering shot at "woods" range. It entered the buck (which weighed about 150 pounds field-dressed) at the rear of the ribcage on one side, and was recovered from under the hide on the front of the chest on the other side. No heavy bone was hit, if deer bones can be called "heavy" compared to an elk's or big bear's.

I also haven't found the 225 .338 Partition to penetrate much deeper than the 210--but the 250 does, the reason it was the Partition I used it on all but one of the animals I've taken with the .338 that weighed over 500 pounds, on up to an eland weighing well over 1000 pounds.

If I was going to carry my .338 to hunt deer in brown bear country (or even Montana's grizzly country, which expands ever year) and a 210-grain bullet it would be the Barnes TTSX--which penetrates deeper than the 210 Partition.

Wise words^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Admiralty Island

I might also mention a brown bear incident that happened on Kodiak Island--though not when I was hunting deer (which I did a year or two later) but when fishing. Eileen and I were fishing out of Zachar Bay Lodge in August, along with a few other guests, and the plan that day was to fish the Zachar River for both Dolly Varden and salmon. The tide was out that morning, so we had to get out of the boat over half a mile from the mouth of the river, then hike the beach to the river.

Our group included the head guide (who was also an experienced bear guide) at the head of the line of about six anglers. He carried a pump 12-gauge with heavy-duty slugs. At the rear of the line was a teenage son of the lodge owners, who was supposed to bring a rifle but forgot to bring it. We were supposed to stay in line, with no wandering.

The beach lay underneath a series of steep ridges, with a sandy "cove" between each ridge-nose. As we rounded one ridge, we saw a couple of brown bear cubs at the base--and mama almost immediately charged us, running down the slope in our direction. One of the clients was a guy with a video camera, and he immediately started walking rapidly toward the bears--in front of the guide with the shotgun. Apparently the video nitwit had no clue about bear charges--but luckily it was a bluff charge, and the shotgun guide was able to push the video guy aside (while using some strong language).

Meanwhile the cubs had headed up the base of the hill to mama, and she stopped. Eventually she turned around and escorted her cubs uphill--and the shotgun guide reamed the video guy out, also giving the rifle-less kid a few words. Then we reorganized into our line and started hiking along the beach again.

This might seem to be one of those singular, random meetings with an angry grown bear--but a couple ridges later almost exactly the same thing happened, once again: Cubs at the base of the hill, and mama charging our group. The difference this time was the video guy did NOT walk toward the bears--and in fact all of us stood very still, except for the shotgun guide, who aimed at her and talked calmly. As a result the excitement ended sooner.

Yes, we were fishing, not deer hunting--but you can run into brown bears almost any time you go wandering around Kodiak--and a few other places in Alaska, such as Phil Shoemaker's country on the Peninsula, which a biologist told him has the highest concentration of bears in the state during the summer/early fall salmon runs.

Use enough fishing pole: Robert Ruark 1965

Yep!

You never know when you might encounter a brown or grizzly when after something else--and what their attitude might be. In a recent post on another Campfire thread involving grizzlies and browns I mentioned that I've hunted in their country a lot, ever since I started hunting in Montana over half a century ago. Have run into grizzlies here both when hunting elk--and pheasants, because they inhabit the brushy pheasant habitat west of the continental divide--and I suspect they'll soon start showing up in the same sort of stuff in the valley I live in on the east side of the divide, since they're expanding both their numbers and range in Montana.

Have also run into grizzlies when hunting other Montana game, from deer to elk to black bears, sometimes at very close range. One was a big boar that was entering the other side of a small clearing in the Bob Marshall Wilderness when I entered the other side of the clearing, maybe 30 feet away. We looked at each other for a long moment, and then he luckily decided to turn around and head the other direction, though he didn't move very fast.

Have also run into grizzlies when hunting moose in northern British Columbia--where one started to come in while my guide and I were taking my bull apart. Luckily that grizzly also reconsidered, though he was sitting next to what remained of the carcass a couple days later, as we packed my bull out of the valley on the main trail, 100 yards from the moose and bear. He just sat there and watched us ride by, belly distended by moose parts.

Have also run into grouchy little tundra grizzlies when hunting caribou in the Northwest and Nunavut Territories. Luckily none of those provided any trouble--including another mama bear and her cubs that were hanging around the area where I killed my very first caribou.

But you never know where they'll be, since they're generally roaming, looking for food, whether berries or big game.

OK, now I'm somewhat confused. For years I've been reading how the lighter bullet weights in the 338 are great on big game. Would one really be poorly armed with the 210 or 225 NP hunting anywhere that grizzlies live? Would the 30cal 200 NP from a 30-06 be more effective for defense than the 338-06 with the 225? I'm considering having a 30-06 rebored to 338, but would I really be gaining anything? I do sometimes hunt where big bears live, but would prefer a better trajectory than 2400fps would provide. I don't have much experience (like any at all, actually) with monos on game. Are they the only good choice in this setting?

A better trajectory combined with plenty of penetration is where the 210 grain TTSX comes in.

At short ranges (i.e., defense against an attacking bear) where impact velocities are going to be high regardless of bullet weight, with bullets of the same construction, the heavier for caliber bullet will penetrate deeper than the light for caliber bullet. At longer ranges, retained velocity will become more of a factor on penetration, and a light for caliber bullet may perform better.

I personally would want something .338 caliber and up, with bullets 250 grains and up, if hunting in an area where coming nose to nose with a grizzly/brown bear is a possibility. Which caliber to use would depend upon the expected range I'd be shooting the intended game at. Up to 200-250 yards for deer/elk/moose, the .338-06 or .35 Whelan would be fine. If I were expecting a shot up to 400 yards, I'd probably choose a case with more capacity, like a .338 Win Mag or .358 Norma Mag. 250/275/280 grain Partition/A-Frame/bonded/X-Type bullet would be what I would choose from.

My moose setup when I hunted them in grizzly territory was a 250 grain Barnes X-Bullet in a .358 Norma Mag at about 2,750 fps muzzle velocity. Through five seasons, I only ran into a grizzly once. He was maybe 50 yards away, and he casually loped off in the opposite direction once he became aware of my presence.

The idea that the heavier for caliber always penetrates deeper at close range isn't always truep
The are more factors than weight that affect penetration.

Personally I would not use a 250 grain mono metal in a 338 win. I would use a 225 or 210

I saw brown bears every day last year on a DIY moose hunt. The area was such that shots might be from 40 to 400+. The 30-06 180gr load I carried hunting matched perfectly with the Burris Ballistic Plex marks at 200,300,400 and 500 yards. I felt it was ideal for the hunt but maybe not ideal for close range defense. The bears, fortunately, were not interested in me but we still kept a heavy loaded 45-70 in the tent. The idea of a 338-06 is tempting, but I'm reluctant to rebore if I were completely depending on that one bullet (210ttsx) to shoot well in my rifle. Thanks for your thoughts.

[quote=jwp475][/quote]

A better trajectory combined with plenty of penetration is where the 210 grain TTSX comes in.

That's probably what I would use if not in potentially close quarters with a brown bear.

It's what I would use even even in close quarters with a brown bear 🐻

I'm no expert, nor a gun writer, but, considering a 338-06 isn't a bad choice IMO, lighter and heavier bullets. Here's what I get out of my rifle:
180 Nosler Accubond, 3000 fps with IMR 4064, sub MOA
185 TSX 2950 fps with H4895 MOA
210 Partition and TTSX - still working up an accurate load, but got 2850 fps with max load of Win 760. 2 MOA
225 Accubond 2720 fps with H4350 .75 inch group
250 Hornady or Sierra 2550 fps 1 MOA - need to test some Partitions when they are available.

I think the above loads fit in many game hunting categories from deer to moose, (pick your bullet for your application), but stopping a brown bear if need be and not damaging a bunch of deer meat at ranges below 100 yards the 250's seem to be the ticket.

As I have stated here many times, I load the 210gr TTSX for several 338WM and have seen a bunch of bull moose and bears get shot with them. Recovered bullets are very rare. And then only on bull Moose shot in the spine at long angles. I have seen quite a few Accubombs shot at various critters including 300gr 375H&H at big brown bears. I have never seen an exit.

The difference in meat loss from bloodshot with C&C, bonded, or plain lead bullets and monos is huge. Monos easily win the category.

Next is the concept of big bear bones... compared to ungulates, bears are delicate. The bone is tough, but not hard, and not very thick.

Yes, my personal choice would be a 210gr T/TSX, and that is what I have on my reloading bench.
Using lead bullets I would now go with a 250 gr Nosler Partition. Appreciate your willingness to share, and I am always open to learning.

Not to get too sidetracked, Winchester model 70 classic, Shilen #3 1:9 twist at 23". McMillan Hunters Edge stock, Cerakote and Leupold VXR 2-7.

I like it very much, and would be one of my last rifles to go down the road.

The bottom rifle is Model 70 classic, Shilen #4, 1:9 twist at 23". B&C stock, Cerakote and Leupold VX6. This is one set up to shoot suppressed with 200gr Hornady FTX in addition to the 200gr NAB that it shoots very well.

Being a looney, I also have a "Safari" 338-06 coming. I am debating on what to regulate the open sights with, my favorite 210gr T/TSX or heavier? Reading MD's posts above, I do not think a 250gr Partition would be a wrong choice.

I like two holes, and the 210T/TSX has always given me that with my 338-06's on animals up to elk..

But I do not know if I would get two holes on a 1000 plus pound brown bear, but I do know they would break bones and go deep enough to hopefully have a satisfactory ending.

In my former 338/06 I settled on 2 loads.

200 NBT at 2910 mv - my go to deer load

225 Partition 2670 - elk load

I'd trust that 225 to do anything needed, including any Bear. Many options, but I would definitely use a Partition, Swift, Barnes, etc. and 210/215 as a minimum. The Partition may have the longest track record.........and the 225 is a great balance in this cartridge, IMO.

The 210 TSX will penetrate plenty. No point in giving up all that velocity and expansion by going to 250s in a 3006 case. I think the deer would run further which on Admiralty would not be a good thing.

210 NP from my .338WM "blew up" (or something) on a moose's shoulder blade at 100 yards or so. Near side shoulder blade badly shattered, lung was peppered with bb size bone and lead, no penetration to the far lung, fist sized entry wound, never found the back half. I think it exited back out the entry wound,

That was the first and last time I used the 210 NP on game.

Logically, that almost had to be a wild anomaly. Logic is out the window when a pissed off bull lurches back to it's feet when one is 3-4 yards away. It was an emotional moment.....

With no experience with .338-06 myself, I should likely back off a little. The 210 likely would do fine in the 06 case, but I think I'd go with the Barnes, instead.

I'd still prefer something heavier, tho. Plan for the worse, hope for the best.

In other words, plan on having to use the load on bear (fairly unlikely). A bear load will work on deer, maybe not so much the other way. If trajectory at long range is a problem, get closer, or forgo making a bear encounter primary, and use a lighter bullet.

When it comes to your skin, it ain't my problem.

From my experience here in the lower 48, deer run farther with the 210gr Barnes than 200gr Hornady Interlock, Ballistic Silvertip or 210gr partition.

I do not know if the 250gr partition would achieve the same results as the 200-210gr lead based bullets or not.

Original OP wants less meat damage and a bullet capable of handling a brown bear. I think that a 210gr T/TSX is the correct choice. But the deer may run a little farther.

Shoot them in the shoulder instead of behind and they go 2'... straight down. Meat damage is less than a c&c behind the shoulder.

Correct, but my observations are from deer deer shot behind the shoulder. Punch them through the shoulder and they do go far, but you will lose more meat.

OP wants to limit meat loss, and be able to handle the a big bear if needed.

I have been very conscious of meat loss ever since I started hunting 40 plus years a go. My Dad drilled it into my head, and after processing all of own critters, have been able to see first hand.

But sometimes you do not get the shot presentation, and you get into the shoulder. It is what it is.

In my experience it's easy to get TTSX's to shoot well, though sometimes you have to play with seating depth.

But if by some odd chance they simply refuse to shoot in a certain rifle, there are other monolithic bullets in that weight range that would also a reasonably flat trajectory in the .338-06 with deep penetration, including a 213-grain Hammer, 225 Hornady GMX, and 200 and 225 Nosler E-Tips.

I think the 210 TSX would be a good compromise for having a bear/deer combo. They shoot well enough. Shots on Admiralty are likely close. I killed 6 or 7 elk with 165 X bullets (1gen). They ALL exited. I wouldn't worry about the 210.

I do agree that game live longer after being shot with copper X bullets than Partitions when shot in heart/ lungs. Just not as much violence going on.

I think so too about a compromise... I got the 210 TTSX to shoot 2850 fps with 760, but not especially accurate. I have enough to play around with seating depth to see if I can get them to shoot a bit better.

No love for the 250 Sierra or the 250 Hornady RN? I have these on hand. 1 MOA at 2550 with these. Might end up just using them for practice. Bought these during one of the past shortages. I'm curious to hear any experiences on game with these.

Interestingly, the Hornady RN has to be seated to a deeper COL than the listed book COL due to it not feeding correctly at the book COL. Another interesting thing I've come across with the 338-06 is using necked up 270 brass for some loads. Of the 100 or so I necked up only one got a split neck. This is with nickel and brass cases for both Win and Rem cases. I think I'll do the candle annealing thing before loading any more up with those.

I do not think the 210gr T/TSX is a compromise at all. IMO it is the best choice. It checks both boxes that the OP wants. I do not believe It gives up anything in big / dangerous game to the 250gr Partition. Full disclosure: I have never used a 250gr Partition.

I shot a bull elk back in 2005 at 280 yards with a 210gr TSX @2850fps. Quartering to and the bullet broke the the ball of the ball and socket joint into four pieces. Continued on through the vitals, liver and exited right behind the ribs. The liver not only had a hole through, but fissures radiated out. A lot of damage. That sold me on them. I have never recovered one, have recovered 210 Partitions.

Such loads worked well in the 318 Westley Richard's. They will work well in the 338-06. A 250 at 2400 fps is a destructive missile on most things when placed properly.

Still going? Wow!

It would be right to assume the hunter does not have a bear tag which is why he is hunting deer only with no actual looking for a bear mentioned?
It would be right to assume that anything approximating a .30/06 properly loaded scenario would be adequate?
It would be right to assume that no shot will be taken until an encountered bear demonstrates intent to harm?
It would be right to assume that such a circumstance would incite self preservation and the shots would be fast, continuous and adrenaline driven?

I would load for bear and kill a deer, then go home. Some threads get way more complicated than they need be.

Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep
and Yep, but fun to ponder and hear others opinions.

Plus, it's always interesting to hear from people who've never seen a grizzly/brown bear, much less been charged--or actually killed one.

Which includes 90% of the posters in "bear spray versus firearm" threads. Have mentioned this before, but the majority of experienced guides in grizzly/brown bear country I've fished or hunted carry carry both spray AND a firearm

No doubt this will result an amazing continuation of this thread.

I hunt elk where Griz are possible in Montana. The 225 Hornady shoots well and should do the job. Don't over think it.

I typically carry both. I really don't want to have to skin another bear to give it to the state. I've had to shoot 4 already!

"Campfire Oracle
Plus, it's always interesting to hear from people who've never seen a grizzly/brown bear, much less been charged--or actually killed one."

Yeah, but, we know someone that read about it once!

Depending on the terrain, shots on deer 250 to 400 yards, i'd use the 210gr partition at 2800 fps in my 338-06, thick cover shots out to 250 yards, the 250gr Swift A frame at 2550.

OK, no 338-06 for me. I want 400 yard range from a bullet worthy of sticking in a bear’s snout. Further, I want to do so without recoil breaking my own snout! I’ll get a 300 and shoot the 200 NP. 2800 FPS should be fast enough. I hope I never find out how it works on bears. Will gladly leave them alone if they’ll return the favor!

is that true for the road system side as well?

over on the west side, any of the side bays off uganik, ugashik... a gunshot was like a dinner bell.

and is it that bad for elk hunts on afognak? my buddy from kodiak pulled a bull elk tag and debating if we should do a surf/deer/elk trip this fall.

had a few run ins with the grumpy brown suit local over down in pashagshak while surfing but i think a dude in a black wetsuit and a huge white board was something not to be messed with and they boogied.

On to the continuation.....

When I have hunted in WY, ID, MT, and AK I have always carried a firearm and sometimes spray. Have seen and been around more than a few grizzlies/browns. Have never killed one or been charged by one.

Firearms have varied from rifles to a 44 mag with 300gr hardcast and a camp 12 gauge with slugs. Practiced a bunch with the handgun and felt pretty competent out to 30 yards shooting DA rapid fire. I think if I was to take a camp gun again, it would be my Marlin 45-70 with dot sight.

I think the dinner bell thing is overrated. I've never had it happen and I have hunted all over the island. Mostly foxes come in

9>)




GR

But I read a few magazine articles on bears. Does it really take much more to become an expert?

Youtubes are much more informative. Anything from Grizzly attack to adjusting the valves on your '63 Austin-Healy. You dont even have to be able to read.

Charlie. You probably know more than I will ever know about the capabilities of different cartridges and the art and science of making things accurate. However, Joe Want a retired guide who was the last apprentice to Pinnell and Talifson used a H+H 500 Nitro double rifle as his guide gun on Kodiak. He had only one bear that took more than 2 shots to take down.

I had it happen on Afognak. The bear came in on a string and nobody will convince me it wasn't due to the gunshots.

Maybe it is a rare occurrence...I dunno. Sounds like it happens fairly often on Montague Island too. I have never had it happen in MT or WY though which is kind of surprising to me. Just a matter of time I guess.