I'm perplexed. I took my M70 358 to the range to try a few different loads. One 50gr of H4895 and a 200gr soft point cloverleafed three shots at 50 yards. I'm thinking cool so I loaded up some more. I had some scope adjustments to make so again I shot at 50 yards to get to a tad high before I moved tp 100. That group was 2 inches at least. The load was exactly the same as before. Why???

The scope and/or mounts are where I'd look.

Checked them they were good.

You noted you loaded more after that nice group. Any chance the charge changed or maybe components from a different lot #, etc.? How about sizing of the brass? Would those cases have varied from the first go-round?

Also, a single group can be a fluke.

Did you clean your bore after the good groups? I've had a couple of rifles that needed at least several foulers before they'd settle down after a good cleaning.

How did you check the scope?

I use a collimator between shots.

50 yards is pretty close to tell how accurate a load is.

You made a scope adjustment then things went south. Hmmm. Scope brand? As said, a collimator will show a lot.

Use the same rest? Position the rifle the same way? Clean bore? Dirty bore? Cold bore? Everything the same?

Did you adjust the scope before shooting the second group at 50? Quite a few scopes require at least a shot or two to settle down again after adjusting.

LEUPOLD?

Pardon me if I got this wrong, but did you fire one 3-shot group and then decide that was the beans? I’d want more evidence than that, probably three at least.

The good news is it’s only April, unless you’re planning a Spring bear hunt.

Welcome to reality.

First thing, 3 shots is not enough to tell you a load is good. It can be enough to tell you a load is no good because a group won't get any smaller if you add more holes, but you can wobble 3 shots together fairly often even with a bad load.

Load testing at 50 yards is an absolute waste of components with a rifle. Do your testing at the maximum distance you might shoot. You can reasonably interpolate but you cannot extrapolate.

Tom

You made too many changes at once to draw any conclusions from load workup. If the 50-grain load is the right one, and not a fluke, it will once again prove itself.

Hmm. Variables that come to mind - without judgement - just spitballing.

Morning coffee? Maybe it’s not a good load after all? Stock creating unequal pressure on one side/portion of the barrel? Same front bag, same rear bag? Fore end location on the front bag always the same? Front or rear sling swivel stud dragging on the bags? Clean barrel/fouled barrel? Was the action removed from the stock between sessions - if so were action screws re-tightened similarly?

I’d vet the load with other supporting sources & perhaps drop down to the starting load just to shoot light loads and confirm that flinching isn’t subconsciously part of the equation.

*Not a gun writer here but have experienced the same as you & these were the things I considered.

LMAO

Change lot# of powder?

Change seating depth?

Change to a different brand of brass?

Wind pick up today?

use a different rest?

Check stock screws and scope ring screws

I don't know for sure but if I find a load that I like, I make a second trip to the range to "proof" the load (make sure it was not a fluke). If it repeats, then I am good and load up how ever many I want.
I have had a scope hold rock steady until I made an adjustment and then just blow up and throw shots all over.
Hope you find what is wrong.

Everything regarding the second load was exactly the same as the first one. Same brass, primer, bullet, powder and I weigh each charge. I checked the screws on the rings and the base screw and they were all tight. I use a Bulls bag for the front and rear support and to the best of my knowledge the rifle was supported in the same way each time. I did make the adjustment to the scope prior to shooting the second group. The scope is an old Redfield 2x-7x wide angle and has been on the gun for decades. As the first group was three shots I didn't clean the rifle prior to shooting the second group. I didn't check the stock screws and that's a good idea and will do so today. As far as shooting at 50 yards I seldom have a shot opportunity past 75 yards where i hunt.
This rifle has shot 48gr of H4895 and 225gr Sierras accurately but I have bought a bunch of 35 cal bullets lately and thought I'd try something different. It will be back to the range for sure and even though it's only the end of April it needs to get above freezing first. LOL

Is it above freezing when you're hunting with that rifle?

Barely. I was planning on using it on our late doe season which is the last of December. I do however have a heated blind (comforts of old age) so it's not subjected to the elements.

I'm guessing the first group was a fluke or the scope took a dive.

I think a rifle that shoots well one day and not the next is the greatest mystery in shooting. We've all been there...

Heres what not to do:

1. Shoot centerfire rifles at 50 yards for load development.
Reason: waste of components and time.
2. Shoot 1 3 shot group and think all is well in the world.

First thing is to take you out the equation.Here is what I was taught.

Rest the forend on a sand bag, 4x4 and a 2x4 to get height. I have a rest I made at work one afternoon shift. .
Rest the butt on a sand bag.Pile sand bags behind the rifle. I use 3
Squeeze the sand bags to get the cross hairs perfect.Now don't touch the rifle, keep that left hand well away from the rifle.. Your rifle should be perfect, at rest with no inputs from YOU.
Gently squeeze the trigger, not throwing off the rifle.

I had my wife sew up jean pant legs and zip-tied the tops for sand bags We have concrete benches at the range.

Using that method for load development when I don't see a good group I know it's the scope.

To the OP
If your shots are less than 75 yards, just how bad are your groups?

At 75 yds. you should have around a 1.5" group or there about. Just how small are these deer? For about the last couple of hundred years a rifle that shot inch and a half groups was considered exceptional, then they started publishing gun mags.

Sometimes when this happens to me it could be too much coffee or just my shooting is off. I switch rifles or go to a rim fire and see if it is my shooting or technique before wasting a lot of ammo.

I would load up some of your old 225 gr . Loads and see how they are shooting now. Maybe your rifle don't like the 200 grainers.

If a given load puts 20 shots into a 4" circle, 3 of them are bound to be touching each other. Therefore.....

A single 3 shot group that is large tells you your load is not good. A single 3 shot group that is small doesn't really tell you much, other than where your point of impact is, because you don't have a large enough sample size to draw any real conclusions.

Maybe those three shots that grouped together were the three that were touching out of the twenty in the first group that were spread out over 4".

I look at multiple 3 shot groups over a long period of time when evaluating a load. The largest group indicates the accuracy of the rifle, not the smallest.

Most people seem to have that ass-backwards.

In the past when I had similar experiences as the OP, the most often problem was

Barnes bullets. Obviously not the OPs problem.

Most likely problems are bench protocol and coffee, imo.

This is well stated. Easy to visualize. Thanks.

The group went from less than an inch to three. I'm going to go back to the 225gr Sierra's and see how it doesn't if that doesn't show promise than I'll change scopes.

Good luck GSP - let us know what you find out.

Many powders are highly affected by temperature swings. Happened to me on RL22 & Winchester powders.

Go back to shooting at 50 yards if you want smaller groups...

If there was a single answer, oh what a world it would be....

My first thought when I read that change. If it groups the way you remember it did then the rifle and scope are ok and maybe start over with your load.

If you keep targets from several different trips to the range, you can stack them on top of each other. Hold the targets up to a light to see how well that rifle is really shooting or if there was a sudden group shift.

Wind conditions at the 100 yd range???

once i am on paper at 25 yds. i go to 100 yards that is where i hopefully can come up some good 5 shot groups . for just a standard hunting rifle 1 inch - 1 1/4 inch moa is good enough but i do have a couple of factory rifles that do shoot real well . but if i have put a custom barrel and have done some accurizing on this rifle i expect 1/2 to 3/4 - 5 shot groups at 100 yards with my hand loads. if its a custom bench rest rifle Bat action, Brux barrel and the best accessories, 4 oz. trigger and a big Nightforce scope then this type of rifle better shoot 2`s and 3`s which is 2/10 `s or 3/10`s and yes we all want a 1 holer all day long.
i do have a 35 Rem. mag. with a custom barrel /Savage action shoots 3/4 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards 225 gr. bullets nice rounded group 2800 fps with a 24 inch barrel .so some 35 caliber rifles do shoot well ,but my 35 Rem.mag shoots well but you do get plenty recoil too ! try some 225 gr. bullets your 358 Win. might shoot better, i used 225 gr. Nosler Partitions i believe ? good luck ,Pete53

Our weather has sucked, to cold and windy to shoot. I'm going to go back to the 225gr it has shot well for decades and see how that works out. Hopefully the sun will come out the wind will cease and a calm morning avails it's self.

One-shot groups are always the smallest.

There's a good chance your first group was just a lucky group. Nothing wrong with 50 yards of your scope parallax well let you do it. Maybe hold your eye back a little until you get some shadow ring and use that to center your eye.

There's also a MAJOR factor at work here. Despite all the experts and experience, there's no way to tell WTF happened from reading about the "symptoms" on the Internet.

A good example occurred a year or two ago, when a guy had a rifle shooting a great at 100 yards, but then groups went to hell at 200. There were all the usual guesses--scope parallax, the bullet somehow "destabilizing" in another 100 yards, different range conditions--etc. etc.

After multiple pages of guesses, it turned out the guy's range had different 100 and 200-yard ranges. Consequently he set up at a different bench to shoot at 200--and the rear bag was just behind of the rear sling-swivel stud. Consequently the stud was hitting the bag during recoil.

He tried it again with the rear bag in front of the sling-swivel stud, and the rifle shot groups right in line with those it shot at 100.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Possibly so, just like PistolCraft mentioned in his post on the first page of this thread, RJ

at my rifle range which is only a 25 yard pit /100 yard berm and also at other ranges i have seen and heard many odd / weird things , even people shooting some rifles with bad scopes but bottom line we all need to help shooters for safety reasons. rather your a doctor, dentist , teacher , writer, farmer, truck driver , salesman or like many of us just a retired blue color worker who just like to hear a gun go bang. its all about fun , being positive and helping all shooters.

Pistolcraft,

Yes, I saw that post, but the sling-swivel stud suggestion was semi-buried among a list of possibilities.

The amazing thing about he thread I mentioned is that it went on...and on...and on.... Only after a pile of posts, most super-technical, did the simple solution appear--and far more often than not the simplest solution turns out to work.

Yes John, threads like these can definitely "over think" a problem. RJ

Well I managed to get back to the range and shot the tried and true 48gr of h4895 and a 225 gr Sierra. As usual the groups ranged from 1.25 to 1.5 at a 100 yards with the scope set on 6X. I went to the 200 grain bullet a Remington PSP and 49gr, 49.5gr and the 50gr load that started this thread. 49.5 proved to be the best with the groups about the same as the 225gr load averaging just a touch over 1.25 inches at 100 yards. This was three three shot groups with each load. The cloverleafed group at 50 yards must have just been the gun Gods smiling on me but the 49.5 grain load will be fine for the application I'll use this for. I wish I had the chronograph with me but I didn't. Next time it will go along as I need to load up for deer season and check the zero before I hunt with it.

Sounds like you will now at least have some confidence in you rifle and load, Good hunting! RJ

Yeah, a single 3-shot group can give false confidence; something that's happened an untold number of times to shooters and hunters through the years.

Yep.
That's why a lot of guys don't want to hear about your single best 3 shot group. Want to hear about your 10 shot group, or 2 consecutive 5 shot groups, or 3 or 4 consecutive 3 shot groups....

Amen to that!

Most of these 'fixes' are just basics not being taken care of. And usually, the basics are the details that get omitted.

Good shootin'.-Al

Thanks, Al!

Yep, they're usually simple stuff. One of my buddies phoned me in a panic a few years ago, saying he thought the barrel of his .270 Weatherby Magnum was "shot out," since it started shooting 2-inch groups. I asked how many times he'd fired the rifle, and he guessed about 500--which I automatically divided by two, having found that guys who guess how many rounds they shoot don't shoot all that many. I said I'd take a look at it--and the bore was essentially copper-plated. He had "cleaned" it a number of times, but not with a solvent that would get rid of much (if any) copper. I really cleaned it, and the rifle started shooting great again.. (Oh, and my borescope only showed a slight amount of throat erosion, about what I'd expect in a .270 Weatherby Magnum after maybe 200 rounds.)

Mule Deer,

I hear 'ya. Most of the 'trouble' I see and am asked to help with is very, very basic stuff. Your Weatherby experience reminds me of a pals 25-06 that I pillar bedded and did load work for. Over the next 12 years, it worked great on antelope, white tails, big mule deer and a couple of black bears. When I'd initially done the work, I set him up with some good cleaning gear...a Delrin rod guide with solvent port, Dewey rod, bronze brushes, Dewey jag, good patches, Shooters Choice solvent, Hoppes #9 for long term storage, etc.

Fast forward a dozen years and he brings the 300 cases I'd originally done and loaded for it back to me to be processed, along with the rifle. All the cleaning stuff was still in the original packages and in the exact cardboard box I'd sent the stuff home in with him all those years before.

The primer pockets on about 100 cases had been rattled pretty hard..the result of "Some prairie dogs I shot" on a scorching August day.

The bore looked like a copper mine. I just cleaned it, dropped the IMR4831 down a full grain, rezero'd it and sent it home with him. He's piled up a bunch of critters since with it.

I wonder how many scopes have been replaced and guns sold/traded when all they needed was a little love, maintainence and attention to basics?

Good shootin'. -Al

Thats some good info to remember.

Actually, he had a 6-shot group. He simply adjusted his scope after 3 shots. I have a rifle that will cut a 3/4" circle @ 50 yards - 10 shots. It will hold 3/4" out to 100 yards. It will hold 1-1/2" out to 200 yards with the same load. I have a sporter weight barrel, so shooting a 10-shot group is not needed. A 5-shot 1-1/2" group gets the job done.

I do agree that 50 yards is not the proving distance. But nothing wrong as a starting point for new load development.

Switching to decaf solved some of my shooting issues. You aren't a machine or shooting exactly the same way each time. Even putting down the rifle to look through the spotting scope will result in a different hold for the next shot. I was pretty surprised how just moving the front bag back farther toward the receiver tightened my groups. Helping guys sight in for the deer season was always an exercise in decorum for me when they thought it might be their load, scope mount or other excuse when I knew darn well that they wiggled.

Yep. That's the thing about taking the time to do load developement and shooting on a regular basis. Once dialed in, you have pretty much eliminated all excuses. If you miss...its the shooter. Humbling!

Its "happened to an untold number of times to shooters and hunters throughout the years" because of ignorance. They won't admit it though and keep shooting those 3 shot groups, thinking when they shoot a one holer, they are good to go. Generally not the case. Again, 50 yards is not the place to be checking cernterfire rifles. Rimfire, maybe, but not centerfires. Regardless of how many shots are fired.

Actually, 50 yard testing for centerfire rifles can be VERY useful--especially in windy conditions. This is because wind-drift at 50 yards is about 1/4 as much as at 100 yards, in the same conditions. But this required some comprehension of the effect of scope parallax, which many shooters don't understand--or, especially, don't understand how to compensate for.