As rifle scopes continue to become more expensive, sometimes out pricing the rifles they go on, I am looking for a quality torque wrench . Also many of the rifle builders are including a set of Torque action screws along with their blade action screws.when they build a rifle.
Who makes and sells a high quality precision inch pound torque wrench for mounting scope bases, scope rings and will also be proficient for tightening rifle action screws?

I use a “Fat Wrench” from Midway. Definitely not the most precise, but it has worked for me. NAGW

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...wheeler-fat-handle-or-weaver#Post9362936

I have a dial type... I was told by one of the Aerospace Engineer types at work that they are the most accurate.

Same here. It’s a whole lot better than what I have done in the past.

Many moons ago I used to sell custom precision torque wrenches to the medical device industry. Beam torque wrenches are the most accurate followed by dial types and "click" type are the least accurate. IIRC the beam units I used to sell were accurate within 2% over their entire range. Of course you pay for precision.

I use a Borka its a handy compact kit for my range bag was on sale at the time.

Borka

I also use the Fat Wrench. I do not know if the numbers represent the actual torque value but it does seem to be consistent and repeatable.

I have two the Fat Wrench and one from Brownells. Use the Brownells mostly.

I have had a Snap on, 1/4 drive. for years, , --- buy once, cry once

This ^^^^^^^^

That’s what I’ve used for years. Seems to work just fine.

Agree with the Fat Wrench. I have one and have no complaints. I also have a Borka ratchet with 2 pre-set attachments (35 in-lbs and 65 in-lbs) which handles a good share of my needs. For the other lesser in-lb values, I use the Fat Wrench.

Another vote for the Fat Wrench.
Paul B.

Fat Wrench here, for years! Mike

I just purchased a Wheeler Fat Wrench to torque the screws that hold my Romeo Zero optic on my Sig P365XL. Whenever you change the battery you have to remove the optic. It says torque to 10 inch pounds.

Ron

Another satisfied Fat Wrench user. I'm sure it doesn't have the exact precision of more expensive wrenches but it's plenty accurate enough for scope and rifle action work.

The main thing a torque wrench has done for me is stop the drastic over tightening of screws. Used to be everything was screwed down farmer tight. I was probably putting 40 inch pounds or more on scope ring screws, then wondering why variable adjustment rings were hard to turn or W&E adjustments weren't moving POI like they were supposed to.

Haven't had that problem since I starting using the fat wrench and tightening to manufacturer's specs - and lo and behold, even with the greatly decreased torque still haven't had a scope fly off the rifle even once!

I've used everything out there and went with a Wiha.

Borka tools are nice as well.

I use a CDI that adjust from 5-40 inch pounds. It's worked well for my needs

Fat Wrench here. No complaints. Hasbeen

Another Fat Wrench user here. It comes with a little chart with their testing measurements. Any torque wrench is 100 times better than doing it by "feel".

FAT wrench for me

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1017290554?pid=508605

I’ve used the Fat Wrench for years, no complaints

For many years all we needed was a screwdriver.
But that was before they started using tin foil for scope tubes.

Fat Wrench here works just fine for me.

Fat wrench works for me.

I have the CDI as well.

The " Fat Wrench" gets them as close as I need.

I use one I got from Brownells. Works well for me.

Got my Fat Wrench about 4 years ago. No complaints. No problems with anything I've used it on. It's much better than when I used to do that stuff by feel. Once upon a time about 20-25 years ago I was one of those guys who was from the "Farmer Tight" school of thought. Then I progressed to the inch pound by feel method, which is B.S.. That Fat Wrench was a worthwhile expense.

Do you have the QD1R50?

Torque wrenches are for kids who haven’t had much experience with fasteners
Once you develop a feel for machinery it is really easy to tell when it is right, things like lubrication or threadlockers make a torque wrench redundant

cooperfan,

Mine is Q2150R--5 -140

Originally bought years ago, for work, but does double duty

Same here.

This.

Fat Wrench

I agree with most of your posts..........you missed the mark on this one

Total BS.

It is easy to calibrate a cheap torque wrench.
It is much harder to explain how to calculate the max torque for a screw or tapped hole.

The breakthrough for me in calculating max torque for a screw or a hole was reading a post in 2008 by a Caterpillar engineer. 1.5 root = 1.5x minor diameter

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/tapped-thread-depth-strength-question-153783/

without all this math. which i despise. i will just tell you what caterpillar standard is.

1 to 1.2 x Dia in steel or cast iron. 1.5 - 2 x Dia in amuminum or other softer metals.

there really is nothing that requres more than 1.5 x as that will generally break even grade 8 hardware before pulling out. 2x if your really worried, and the material is really crappy.

That combined with this link where there is max torque on dry screws, 75% max toque on oil or greased threads, and 50% torque on waxed threads.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=143701

I had never realized that screws and bolts break almost all in tension stress and not in torque stress. Torque may cause the tension, but the max tension of the steel is how to calculate the max torque. Given enough female threads, the weak link is the screw breaking. That can be found in table for different grades of bolts.
https://www.engineersedge.com/torque_table_sae.htm

With all this information I was able to figure out how much torque I could apply to shallow 10-32 holes I was drilling and tapping into a Mosin Nagant for a scope base.

I just tighten them down by hand.

Another vote for Wiha! Made in Germany with the typical precision you would expect.

NWT: I have and use a "Snap-On" inch pounds torque wrench for my amateur gunsmithing action torquing needs.
Been working wonderfully for 35+ years now.
Also have the tiny Wheeler Fat Wrench for rings/bases needs.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Good advice.

Lots of good advice. Fatwrench probably would have been fine, but changing out a number of scopes, so tomorrow I am ordering the Brownell’s Seekonk 1 to 75 inch pound since I currently have a Brownell’s credit I need to use up.

Haven't seen them mentioned here. Fixit Sticks. I like the concept & the full kit seems handy. Redhawk Rifles sells them.

If you want a " quality ' torque wrench you don't want the Fat Wrench. They are cheap, crude and hard to see the difference in graduations.
I have 5 or 6 different small torque wrenches including dial and click.
I have Proto, Snap on, Vortex, Wright tool and a Capri.

They have different values so I choose the one for the mission. Because I work in the aerospace industry I have to have mine calibrated annually.
The click ones come back in calibration every time. So far within 1%.

90% off the time I use the Capri or Vortex (same tool). I only use the dial when I want to see the torque change.
Wera and Wiha make great torque screwdrivers too.

Most guys that have the Wheeler have it because it was on the shelf at their local gun store. Shop for torque tools elsewhere.
Using a fat wrench is like loading ammo with a Lee load all...

I have a nice little compact one. It came in a little plastic box about the size of a box beam made out of two longitudinally folded dollar bills. (~6"x1"x1")
I think that it goes up to 21.8 ft-lb or N-m (I think one is 21.x and the other 14ish)
it would probably work well on scopes, it has a standard hex-bit drive.
I believe it is made by Gustiforza(sp?)

Only issue with the Wheeler is it doesn’t go high enough for action screws. Those I do by feel. Main purpose of the torque driver for me is to keep me from getting too frisky with ring screws, not precision. I do about 17-18 inch pounds, and have yet to have one slip in the rings.

Pretty hard to compare the different torque wrenches/drivers locally. Along with the Seekonk from Brownell’s I ordered the Wiha to compare and see which one fits my needs the best. They seem to be totally different units.

So torquing the rod & main bolts and the head bolts on a car engine is a waste of time? Might want to also mention your ideas to the aerospace and jet engine manufacturers as well (and remember they don't use loctite, but rather safety wire). Critical fastening requires a torque wrench....spent 18 years in a field that required it or the fuel pump would become a thousand dollar paper-weight.

I have an Armstrong 1/4" drive dial torque wrench that has given me good service for 35 years for all manner of things that need to be torqued to inch pound specs.

Fat Wrench.

We are talking about 6*48 scope mount screws here that maybe have 1/8” of engagement here and little amounts of inch pounds of torque, are you using safety wire?

[/quote] We are talking about 6*48 scope mount screws here that maybe have 1/8” of engagement here and little amounts of inch pounds of torque, are you using safety wire?
[/quote]

The primary reason torque amounts started being suggested for scope mounting was NOT the strength of the screws, but the strength of scope tubes. A LOT of people (including some so-called professionals) were over-tightening ring-screws to the point where scopes started to malfunction. This is especially true of variables, since they have an "inner tube" (the erector tube, which in variables changes magnification) that can be affected by too much ring tightening. But over-tightening can also affect adjustments, and in some scopes it doesn't have to be much to affect them.

MD, I recall you saying it was --Farmer tight

Yep!

Apparently a lot of people think a scope won't stay firmly in place unless the rings put "waists" in the tube.

How many of you have your tools calibrated?

What settings do you recommend for scope ring screws and scope mount screws? Thanks

Good question! Where would one go to get this done? Machine shop?

.[/quote] What settings do you recommend for scope ring screws and scope mount screws? Thanks[/quote]

Generally, whatever the mount manufacturer recommends, which is generally around 17-20 inch pounds--though scope manufacturers also often suggest settings.

But it varies with the thickness of the scope tube. Nightforce generally recommends 25 inch-pounds, because their tubes are thicker than typical lighter-weight hunting scopes, and NF scopes are also heavier as well, which often requires tighter rings to keep them in place during recoil (which if course also depends on the cartridge and rifle weight).

I have one also

Generally, whatever the mount manufacturer recommends, which is generally around 17-20 inch pounds--though scope manufacturers also often suggest settings.

But it varies with the thickness of the scope tube. Nightforce generally recommends 25 inch-pounds, because their tubes are thicker than typical lighter-weight hunting scopes, and NF scopes are also heavier as well, which often requires tighter rings to keep them in place during recoil (which if course also depends on the cartridge and rifle weight).
[/quote]


Years ago I was told by a VP at Nightforce that with theor rings 15 inch pounds. I went 14 and have never had a scope move
I haven't asked their recommendation since so I'm not up to date

MATCO tool truck have them, probably as would Snapon, or Mack. Mine is a very old Snapon it will out last me. Plus there are many different types.

Actually I have 2 inch pound torque wrenchs. The other is a Mack I believe. The difference is the Mack has a bar that bends with a pointer on it. The Snapon

is the more expensive click type. I used the Mack type to set pinion bearing drag as you can see when you are getting close to the spec. The Snapon won,t tell you how

close it is until it clicks.

All of mine, annually

You may pick your wrench.

Received both the Brownell’s Seekonk and the German Wiha . For my needs the Wiha is about perfect .

A good inch pound screw driver is a must.

Solid choice.

I didn't use a torque wrench for years, never a problem that I know of but I decided about two years ago to give it a try and I would not mount rings/bases/scope without one if I could avoid it. Getting the screws all to spec not only eliminates the guessing game but also results in uniform consistency for all 8 scope ring screws and I believe that's got to be a benefit to more consistency and longevity. I do agree that overtightening is more of a problem for most people and the torque wrench helps avoid that too. I went with the Wheeler Fat Wrench, not the most expensive but I'm satisfied with it.

All y'all torque lovers:

What corrections do you use for lubrication?

What corrections do you use for friction?

Since torque is not a direct indicator of tension, what calc do you use to ensure the correct tension on your fasteners?

Just curious...

I'm mounting a scope, not working on Air Force 1.

Then why use a torque wrench that won't yield accurate tension, vs simply using a T wrench designed to yield the accurate tension for a a given T tension?

A torque wrench, used in a less than perfect manner! beats the ass off
a screwdriver twisted untill your teeth grit. Twice.

(The old fashioned "Farmer Tight" method most traditionally use.)


I know using a torque wrench usually results in a big surprise in how
little effort it takes to properly tighten most fasteners.

Often am uncomfortable with how tight I haven't made lug nuts.
100ft/lbs sure is a long way from pulling on the bar till I grunt.

A torx wrench of the proper factor snugged and then pulled to 90* will be more consistent 70 times than a piece of [bleep] torque wrench.

I took my BS in Structural Engineering in 1982. At that time the accepted design criteria was ASD - Allowable Stess Design.

After several years working in Petro Chem Offshore the US finally caught up with the rest of the world that LFRD Load Factor and Resistance Design was the more accurate specification, and that is what is used now in all US design. I did my Masters on the transition.

Simply put, and argue all you want, but please supply references: For the last 25ish years, I've not worked on ONE project on 5 continents where TORQUE is acceptable as an indicator for tension in critical service. Turn of the Nut, which is equivalent to using say a T25 and pulling it to 90* is ALLOWED on non-critical systyems. Hydro-Tensioning, ie measuring the stretch on the fastener is spec'd for critical systems....and TORQUE NEVER meets the requirement...

What happened to Farmer Tight being good to go ?

😬🦫

PS

I use a torque wrench for mounting or seating screws on a rifle.

Journeyman,

Apparently you missed this post I made on this thread back on 7/20:

The primary reason torque amounts started being suggested for scope mounting was NOT the strength of the screws, but the strength of scope tubes. A LOT of people (including some so-called professionals) were over-tightening ring-screws to the point where scopes started to malfunction. This is especially true of variables, since they have an "inner tube" (the erector tube, which in variables changes magnification) that can be affected by too much ring tightening. But over-tightening can also affect adjustments, and in some scopes it doesn't have to be much to affect them.

Not only didn't miss it...but disputed it. If a t15 or t25 snugged and pulled to 90* affects your scope...dump that POS...

Marty Bordson, Glen Seekins, Jered Joplin and I have had this discussion years ago...

Here's what Marty says now...
Badger Installation


Again, John - my point is that a POS wrench off by 6% +...+ no correction for the friction factor on the fasteners...+ no correction for any lubricant or locker....= the problem you describe MUCH MORE than using the long end of a torx wrench as tight as one can twist it..

Journeyman,

Looks like Marty still gives torque values in in/lbs as does Nightforce and Spuhr uses both in/lbs and Newton/meters.

rather than delving into engineering theory, what tool and method do you recommend for mounting scopes?

Looking for specific info to use.

Thanks.

Not the expert that some of you evidently are. But on a project I was on, the contractors had to buy new torque wrenches and had to have them calibrated every six months. The torque wrench that they were using was a very common torque wrench (I owned two of them at the time) and according to the mechanical engineering group could be off by 50% easily.
Therefore, I’d like to see the specification by the scope manufacturer including plus/minus % and pick the appropriate wrench.
If the scope manufacturer wants 25 inch pounds plus or minus 1 inch pound then that would narrow the choice, I’d guess.
I’m pretty sure my choices were often made by the $’s I had at the time and not to what was the best tool for the job.

Jeff,

You said "rather than delve into engineering theory", so I offer this:

There are two companies that own the thread locker market, Henkel (LOCTITE) and Permatex. I have friends at both. One of my friends worked on this layman's manual:

LOCTITE Threadlocker Manual

Go to Section 6 "Threaded Assemblies" and read it through. You'll note at Section 6.2:

Method 3
Measure torque

This is the simplest and most widely implemented method used in engineering.
It is also the least accurate. The variables involved in using this method can result
in errors of ± 25%. The margin of error can be magnified by coefficients of friction, lubricants, burrs on bearing surfaces, flexibility of the structure and operator
error. Therefore, when torque is used to control clamp load, testing is recom-
mended to determine either the coefficients of bearing and thread friction
or the k-factor of the assembly configuration.

Since you said you don't want to get into engineering theory let's skip the k-factor discussions and cut to the chase...

There are 3 influencing factors that affect proper tightening: Bolt Tension, Thread Friction, and Head Friction.

What I suggest, is:

Dump all fasteners in acetone and clean them to bare metal.
Use a cotton swab soaked in acetone to clean the threaded assemblies.
Apply Loctite 248 STICK Loctite Stick then use the proper torx wrench, ie 15/25/whatever and snug , then twist to 90 *(another of your questions - * = degrees)

This will ensure you get the minimum clamping force to avoid slippage.

Now, to sound like a hypocrite, I then use a Wiha torque wrench calibrated to a test block to see where it clicks at the value stated by the ring or scope manufacturer. Almost always it clicks before applying anymore tension...

J-man,

exactly the info I was looking for.

I do thoroughly degrease every thread, been using blue loctite liquid, but will try the stick.

I have the Seekonk 1 - 75 in/lbs torque indicator, but it is bulky, so is limited to the bench. Any good?

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...nd-variable-torque-wrench-prod18221.aspx

Something smaller besides a Fat Wrench to fit in the toolbox would be nice. Eyed Wiha’s on occasion, but never added one. Might give it a try. Which model do you recommend?

Nightforce is offering a compact torque wrench set with their branding, though just a swag it is relabelled made by someone else. Thoughts?

https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/accessories/other-accessories

Thank you sir.

I don't see where you disputed my post about torque settings being mostly for scopes. I do dispute what you say about torque and scopes, since many manufacturers (including Nightforce) have specific recommendations. As I also mentioned earlier, NF recently recommended 25 inch-pounds for rings.

I have seen plenty of good "hunting" scopes affected by too much torque on the ring-screws. In fact I have seen some permanently deformed. If you think that disqualifies a scope for any use, then that's your opinion.

With rare exceptions I don't use thread-locker, or lube--or anything else--on ring-screws, and haven't had problems with scopes shifting in the rings on hunting rifles up cartridges such as the .416 Rigby and .458 Winchester--and that includes a .416 Remington Magnum that only weighed 8 pounds.

Am familiar with Marty's recommendation of not turning the lock nuts on the rings more than half a turn past finger-tight if you don't have a torque wrench, since I have some of his rings.

I have found it best to lock the screws down with inspection lacquer, torque paste or whatever you want to call it. It goes on AFTER the scope is torqued, easily defeated by wrench, immediately tells you of its slipped...


I can tell you that some of the cheaper scopes have softer aluminum tubes, 25 in/lbs will cause real problems. I've been down that rabbit hole enough.

Dennis,

Even some of the more expensive scopes have that "problem." I can tell several stories....

Bingo!

Doesn’t matter if my cheesy Fat Wrench delivers 14, 18, 23, or whatever inch pounds when I set it between 15 and 20 for ring screws. What matters is that the scope doesn’t slip, the rings stay tight, and the scope works like it’s supposed to. I spent a few decades being very particular and precise about stuff and appreciate the value of it when it’s required. This ain’t one of those times.

The only thing that would make this thread more of a train wreck is If BigStick joined in.

Pretty sure he’s in the Farmer Tight camp.

Hey, John...

Sorry, you're right. didn't mean I dispute what you said; I meant I dispute what you were told. I'd not disparage your writing in any way. Truly enjoy your stuff.

However; Right now my consultancy is working on pipe stresses on a North Sea FPSO. She's ~270M in length by ~50M breadth width a depth of ~30M and a draft of ~12M. Her deadweight's ~130,000 tonne and her displacement ~200,000 tonne.

There are ~77,000M of topsides piping, from 1/8" tubing to 36" seawater, in 8 different materials form Ti to low temp CS, in schedules from 10 to XXS. This piping runs over 12 modules to make an integrated topsides. Our contract was to calculate spans, stops, anchors, etc for every meter of that pipe in 2 states - 20* C with a sea state of a 13 M swell over 30 second duration...and + 20*C with 18M swell over 30 second duration.

And... we're done!

But, were just offered a hell of a change order to calculate stresses of a certain size berg or bergy bit at a certain velocity impacting form the side...

In other words...if I get a break I'll look at the acceleration from a rifle on a mounting system and a scope if one of my guys has a minute or two to spare...

Do you read english?

Some.

Do you know what GFY means?

Aren’t there two problems at work in getting the ring screws tightened correctly?
1- the ring screws have to be tight enough so they don’t back out.

2- the clamping force applied to the scope itself when it essentially becomes the fulcrum between the screws on one side of the ring and the other side as each is tightened.

Assume the ring instructions calls for 25” lbs and I use my Fat wrench (uncalibrated BTW) and I tighten to 25” lbs, If my ring screws never move and I don’t crush the scope so much that the internals are affected, does it really matter that my Fat wrench may have actually tightened to 28”lbs or 30? If it’s reasonably consistent (+/- 10% or even 20%) it’s close enough for my purposes and it would probably work OK if I mount another scope next week. If it works, it works….

.

I have a Borka but mainly use it on the base (rails etc) with thread locker. 24" pounds does it.

For the rings (mainly use Burris with inserts) I tighten them until there is a space between the upper and lower ring that is about the thickness of a credit card, or so. I make sure both sides are equal and the front and back rings are equal too. Kinda hard to mess up with the Burris inserts. I have not used thread locker on the ring screws. Maybe I should?

I also make every effort to have the rings as close to center of the turret/objective, turret/ocular as reasonably possible.

I am definitely open to constructive criticism of my approach.

You might consider moving the rings as far apart as possible to minimize any torque on the scope tube from bumps, etc., rather than centering the rings on the scope tube mounting surfaces.

Correct and it is supposed to prevent the tube from flexing as well.

Gotcha. More times than not the rings are spread apart more than stated. Thanks for the feedback.

You wankers seem to be fascinated by inches and wrenches.

And lubricant….

Gotta figure in the lubricant

I love threads like this! 🙃

I am sitting on the deck watching the rain.

They're almost as bad as a "best lube thread" on an AR15 forum.

Nobody likes a braggart.

Good info from Marty. Hadn't seen this, thanks for posting

In regards to the Loctite, I prefer the gel as it tends to be a little less messier than the liquid or stick.

I read MD’s article on the subject. Interesting. I guess I need another gadget.

If you haven't had any problems, probably not!

But am wondering what gadget you're thinking about....