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Joined: Mar 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
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J-man, exactly the info I was looking for. I do thoroughly degrease every thread, been using blue loctite liquid, but will try the stick. I have the Seekonk 1 - 75 in/lbs torque indicator, but it is bulky, so is limited to the bench. Any good? https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...nd-variable-torque-wrench-prod18221.aspxSomething smaller besides a Fat Wrench to fit in the toolbox would be nice. Eyed Wiha’s on occasion, but never added one. Might give it a try. Which model do you recommend? Nightforce is offering a compact torque wrench set with their branding, though just a swag it is relabelled made by someone else. Thoughts? https://www.nightforceoptics.com/riflescopes/accessories/other-accessoriesThank you sir.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,160 Likes: 13 |
Not only didn't miss it...but disputed it. If a t15 or t25 snugged and pulled to 90* affects your scope...dump that POS... Marty Bordson, Glen Seekins, Jered Joplin and I have had this discussion years ago... Here's what Marty says now... Badger InstallationAgain, John - my point is that a POS wrench off by 6% +...+ no correction for the friction factor on the fasteners...+ no correction for any lubricant or locker....= the problem you describe MUCH MORE than using the long end of a torx wrench as tight as one can twist it.. I don't see where you disputed my post about torque settings being mostly for scopes. I do dispute what you say about torque and scopes, since many manufacturers (including Nightforce) have specific recommendations. As I also mentioned earlier, NF recently recommended 25 inch-pounds for rings. I have seen plenty of good "hunting" scopes affected by too much torque on the ring-screws. In fact I have seen some permanently deformed. If you think that disqualifies a scope for any use, then that's your opinion. With rare exceptions I don't use thread-locker, or lube--or anything else--on ring-screws, and haven't had problems with scopes shifting in the rings on hunting rifles up cartridges such as the .416 Rigby and .458 Winchester--and that includes a .416 Remington Magnum that only weighed 8 pounds. Am familiar with Marty's recommendation of not turning the lock nuts on the rings more than half a turn past finger-tight if you don't have a torque wrench, since I have some of his rings.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,106
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
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I have found it best to lock the screws down with inspection lacquer, torque paste or whatever you want to call it. It goes on AFTER the scope is torqued, easily defeated by wrench, immediately tells you of its slipped...
I can tell you that some of the cheaper scopes have softer aluminum tubes, 25 in/lbs will cause real problems. I've been down that rabbit hole enough.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,160 Likes: 13 |
Dennis,
Even some of the more expensive scopes have that "problem." I can tell several stories....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6 |
All y'all torque lovers:
What corrections do you use for lubrication?
What corrections do you use for friction?
Since torque is not a direct indicator of tension, what calc do you use to ensure the correct tension on your fasteners?
Just curious... I'm mounting a scope, not working on Air Force 1. Bingo! Doesn’t matter if my cheesy Fat Wrench delivers 14, 18, 23, or whatever inch pounds when I set it between 15 and 20 for ring screws. What matters is that the scope doesn’t slip, the rings stay tight, and the scope works like it’s supposed to. I spent a few decades being very particular and precise about stuff and appreciate the value of it when it’s required. This ain’t one of those times.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
The only thing that would make this thread more of a train wreck is If BigStick joined in.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6 |
The only thing that would make this thread more of a train wreck is If BigStick joined in. Pretty sure he’s in the Farmer Tight camp.
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,693
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,693 |
Not only didn't miss it...but disputed it. If a t15 or t25 snugged and pulled to 90* affects your scope...dump that POS... Marty Bordson, Glen Seekins, Jered Joplin and I have had this discussion years ago... Here's what Marty says now... Badger InstallationAgain, John - my point is that a POS wrench off by 6% +...+ no correction for the friction factor on the fasteners...+ no correction for any lubricant or locker....= the problem you describe MUCH MORE than using the long end of a torx wrench as tight as one can twist it.. I don't see where you disputed my post about torque settings being mostly for scopes. I do dispute what you say about torque and scopes, since many manufacturers (including Nightforce) have specific recommendations. As I also mentioned earlier, NF recently recommended 25 inch-pounds for rings. I have seen plenty of good "hunting" scopes affected by too much torque on the ring-screws. In fact I have seen some permanently deformed. If you think that disqualifies a scope for any use, then that's your opinion. With rare exceptions I don't use thread-locker, or lube--or anything else--on ring-screws, and haven't had problems with scopes shifting in the rings on hunting rifles up cartridges such as the .416 Rigby and .458 Winchester--and that includes a .416 Remington Magnum that only weighed 8 pounds. Am familiar with Marty's recommendation of not turning the lock nuts on the rings more than half a turn past finger-tight if you don't have a torque wrench, since I have some of his rings. Hey, John... Sorry, you're right. didn't mean I dispute what you said; I meant I dispute what you were told. I'd not disparage your writing in any way. Truly enjoy your stuff. However; Right now my consultancy is working on pipe stresses on a North Sea FPSO. She's ~270M in length by ~50M breadth width a depth of ~30M and a draft of ~12M. Her deadweight's ~130,000 tonne and her displacement ~200,000 tonne. There are ~77,000M of topsides piping, from 1/8" tubing to 36" seawater, in 8 different materials form Ti to low temp CS, in schedules from 10 to XXS. This piping runs over 12 modules to make an integrated topsides. Our contract was to calculate spans, stops, anchors, etc for every meter of that pipe in 2 states - 20* C with a sea state of a 13 M swell over 30 second duration...and + 20*C with 18M swell over 30 second duration. And... we're done! But, were just offered a hell of a change order to calculate stresses of a certain size berg or bergy bit at a certain velocity impacting form the side... In other words...if I get a break I'll look at the acceleration from a rifle on a mounting system and a scope if one of my guys has a minute or two to spare...
You can no more tell someone how to do something you've never done, than you can come back from somewhere you've never been...
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,693
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,693 |
All y'all torque lovers:
What corrections do you use for lubrication?
What corrections do you use for friction?
Since torque is not a direct indicator of tension, what calc do you use to ensure the correct tension on your fasteners?
Just curious... I'm mounting a scope, not working on Air Force 1. Bingo! Doesn’t matter if my cheesy Fat Wrench delivers 14, 18, 23, or whatever inch pounds when I set it between 15 and 20 for ring screws. What matters is that the scope doesn’t slip, the rings stay tight, and the scope works like it’s supposed to. I spent a few decades being very particular and precise about stuff and appreciate the value of it when it’s required. This ain’t one of those times. Do you read english?
You can no more tell someone how to do something you've never done, than you can come back from somewhere you've never been...
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6 |
Some.
Do you know what GFY means?
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,719 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,719 Likes: 1 |
Aren’t there two problems at work in getting the ring screws tightened correctly? 1- the ring screws have to be tight enough so they don’t back out.
2- the clamping force applied to the scope itself when it essentially becomes the fulcrum between the screws on one side of the ring and the other side as each is tightened.
Assume the ring instructions calls for 25” lbs and I use my Fat wrench (uncalibrated BTW) and I tighten to 25” lbs, If my ring screws never move and I don’t crush the scope so much that the internals are affected, does it really matter that my Fat wrench may have actually tightened to 28”lbs or 30? If it’s reasonably consistent (+/- 10% or even 20%) it’s close enough for my purposes and it would probably work OK if I mount another scope next week. If it works, it works….
NRA Life,Endowment,Patron or Benefactor since '72.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,073
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,073 |
All y'all torque lovers:
What corrections do you use for lubrication?
What corrections do you use for friction?
Since torque is not a direct indicator of tension, what calc do you use to ensure the correct tension on your fasteners?
Just curious... I'm mounting a scope, not working on Air Force 1. Bingo! Doesn’t matter if my cheesy Fat Wrench delivers 14, 18, 23, or whatever inch pounds when I set it between 15 and 20 for ring screws. What matters is that the scope doesn’t slip, the rings stay tight, and the scope works like it’s supposed to. I spent a few decades being very particular and precise about stuff and appreciate the value of it when it’s required. This ain’t one of those times. Do you read english? .
Last edited by StudDuck; 08/12/21.
24HCF in its entirety, is solely responsible for why my children do not have college funds, my mortgage isn't paid-off and why I will never retire early enough to enjoy the remainder of my life.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,473
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,473 |
I have a Borka but mainly use it on the base (rails etc) with thread locker. 24" pounds does it.
For the rings (mainly use Burris with inserts) I tighten them until there is a space between the upper and lower ring that is about the thickness of a credit card, or so. I make sure both sides are equal and the front and back rings are equal too. Kinda hard to mess up with the Burris inserts. I have not used thread locker on the ring screws. Maybe I should?
I also make every effort to have the rings as close to center of the turret/objective, turret/ocular as reasonably possible.
I am definitely open to constructive criticism of my approach.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is. dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box. Italian Proverb
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,521 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 14,521 Likes: 1 |
I have a Borka but mainly use it on the base (rails etc) with thread locker. 24" pounds does it.
For the rings (mainly use Burris with inserts) I tighten them until there is a space between the upper and lower ring that is about the thickness of a credit card, or so. I make sure both sides are equal and the front and back rings are equal too. Kinda hard to mess up with the Burris inserts. I have not used thread locker on the ring screws. Maybe I should?
I also make every effort to have the rings as close to center of the turret/objective, turret/ocular as reasonably possible.
I am definitely open to constructive criticism of my approach. You might consider moving the rings as far apart as possible to minimize any torque on the scope tube from bumps, etc., rather than centering the rings on the scope tube mounting surfaces.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,073
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,073 |
I have a Borka but mainly use it on the base (rails etc) with thread locker. 24" pounds does it.
For the rings (mainly use Burris with inserts) I tighten them until there is a space between the upper and lower ring that is about the thickness of a credit card, or so. I make sure both sides are equal and the front and back rings are equal too. Kinda hard to mess up with the Burris inserts. I have not used thread locker on the ring screws. Maybe I should?
I also make every effort to have the rings as close to center of the turret/objective, turret/ocular as reasonably possible.
I am definitely open to constructive criticism of my approach. You might consider moving the rings as far apart as possible to minimize any torque on the scope tube from bumps, etc., rather than centering the rings on the scope tube mounting surfaces. Correct and it is supposed to prevent the tube from flexing as well.
24HCF in its entirety, is solely responsible for why my children do not have college funds, my mortgage isn't paid-off and why I will never retire early enough to enjoy the remainder of my life.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,473
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,473 |
Gotcha. More times than not the rings are spread apart more than stated. Thanks for the feedback.
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is. dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box. Italian Proverb
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,166 Likes: 14
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,166 Likes: 14 |
You wankers seem to be fascinated by inches and wrenches.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28,827 Likes: 6 |
And lubricant….
Gotta figure in the lubricant
What fresh Hell is this?
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,734 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,734 Likes: 3 |
I love threads like this! 🙃 I am sitting on the deck watching the rain.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2013
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I love threads like this! 🙃 I am sitting on the deck watching the rain. They're almost as bad as a "best lube thread" on an AR15 forum.
24HCF in its entirety, is solely responsible for why my children do not have college funds, my mortgage isn't paid-off and why I will never retire early enough to enjoy the remainder of my life.
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