Or Second of Angle? 1 SOA is about .017” at 100 yds. I know 10 SOA doesn’t sound smaller than .25 MOA, but...,

Maybe because an MOA is so close to an inch, which I am sure most shooters can estimate when looking at a target. But, I dunno, otherwise.

With all the talk of sub-MOA shooting results, these days, I believe you are on to something. A one inch group at 200 yards could then be described as 30 SOA, eh?

Looks like your math is no better than your ability to teach stupid things on the 1911.

Perhaps you should reread what I actually said.

I have a rifle that shoots 5 SOA all day long, if I do my part. One ragged hole, I'm telling you.

Of course, I only load the best pills, and that sumbitch kills like the Hammer of Thor!

Incredibly few shooters are actually shooting a REAL MOA.....it's merely internet hype. I have done so on a few occasions but many times failed to repeat it.

Yes, I have no doubt that there's a few shooters and guns capable of consistent MOA shooting.....but if they want it's not all that hard for them to say it shoots in the "3s" or whatever actual groups they are getting. This has more meaning to me than SOA as it's quite easy to understand.

I have said this before and seriously believe it.....there are more 1/2" groups fired on the internet than actually fired at the range.

Yes, I know there are far better shooters than me and I cheer them on.....but using a SOA measurement won't improve groups at all....lets just stick to what we have now.....it's working nicely.

I've fired some honest 1/2 inch groups. If I'd only stopped after that third shot.........

Ha! I've fired some 1/4" groups. Then I moved the target from the 25 yard line...

Lol, depends on when you go and how honest they really are. I have 3 rifles that are honest 1/2” or less shooters, did have 4 but sold my bench gun when I gave up competition shooting. 1/2” is boring but gets real interesting when you start getting down to .2-.3 outside to outside. That’s fun.
Either way you look at MOA or SOA is always going to lose in competition. 1” is going to beat 1 MOA. A .2” is always going to beat a 12 SOA.

I noticed 20 years ago that I never saw a 1" 5 shot group at any rifle range.

But on the internet, a 1" group would be soliciting advice as to how to get it down to a 1/2" group.

This is the internet / public range reality conversion chart

1/4 moa = 2 moa
1/2 moa = 4 moa
1 moa = 8 moa
2 moa = not on the paper

One guy at the range must have been reading the internet. He said "all my rifles are sub moa"
But looking at his groups.. they were 5" ~ 8"

Always thought it funny when spending time at the range 2 weeks before deer season. Overhearing other shooters talking among themselves about how good their rifle is shooting. So I swing my spotting scope over and have a look see and think damn , nice 4-5 inch pattern all on the edge of black on that 25 yard pistol target. Minute of deer.

Dan, I have changed and done so many things diff ALREADY since joining the 'fire'.....

Don't need & ain't gonna add more.

Y'all have fun. NO sarcasm, No criticism, Not snooty, just ain't.

Jerry

Plus, even here, someone 'could' shoot EDIT......................................................>, change to 'close range' and
post as 100 or 200 yds.

SWEAR I have not done that but it could be done.

I have had personal shooting contests with 2 or 3 guys over the years and no contest.

One was a personal friend in 1987. He was so proud of his 6 gun 22, I'll NOT say what it was, some here love em.
At 30 yds I let him shoot 4 or 5 Xs till he hit the small target.

I then shot my Ruger MK II SS 6 7/8" bll. ONE shot One Kill. Repeat 2nd time, One Shot One Kill.
He went and got a Ruger Mk II SS 5 1/2" bull bll. He could hit with it.

Jerry

But, 1” at 100 yards is certainly within 1 MOA, and .2” is within 12 SOA. The difference between inches and angles only matters in formal competition. The useful thing about describing group size in terms of MOA or SOA is in forecasting approximate performance at different distances.

I have no doubt whatsoever that many guys here are achieving MOA five-shot groups, whether shot at 100 or 200 yards or further. I've done it many times myself, with many of my rifles and if I can do it then I have no problem believing that many others can also. It really isn't that hard. Some of my rifles won't do it every time, but there are a number of them in my safe that will. The ones that don't, I keep working on. I even make progress now and then with one or two of them. That's what keeps me coming back to the loading bench.

SOA, MOA, inches, millimeters, mils...whatever. Makes no difference.

I shot an honest .264" under ideal conditions a few years ago when my eyesight was good, but then I fired the 2nd shot...damn.

Yep it’s funny. 3 Sundays in a row for 26 years I would volunteer at the club for sight in days. Saw it all, but the thing that struck me most was that most maybe 95% had the worst damn bench techniques I had ever seen. Didn’t know how to read a wind flag and the most common was buying a 300 super whizzum when all the recoil they could handle was a 243. 2nd to 3rd shot they were flinching, jerking the trigger and even had one guy close his eyes in anticipation of the recoil.
Had one guy say here I am tired of this after the 3rd shot, you shoot it, so I did, got it dialed in and he goes I am going to shoot twice if they land close to yours I am good to go.

Plain and simple when shooting groups if you can’t read wind flags and your bench technique is sh*t, you are going to get sh*t groups.

I vote for reporting muzzle velocity in furlongs per fortnight.

So I guess a 5000 FPF sidewind would be pretty easy to deal with, huh?

Most are over gunned.

Over scoped and under practiced too.

Honest, I have never in my life shot a 1/2" group at 100 yds. Little smaller, little bigger. Question that comes to mind, if you shoot a group that is .386" how do you describe it as MOA....what fraction? No, you don't, 'cause .386" is easier to say. In any case, SOA is a smaller fraction and therefore more precise when rounded.

So, 50 yards....

The one on the left is...20 SOA or .34 MOA


10.7 SOA or , uh, .18 MOA?



100 yards...26.47 SOA or "a little less than a half inch."





















Just some thoughts and I hope you somehow forgot about COVID/BIDEN/HARRIS/China for a few minutes.

"A rose by any other name is but a rose."

Shussss....



But my rose is smaller than yours.

Let's take it a step further and denote group sizes by smell. "Manure sized", "dead cat sized", "baking bread sized", "first girlfriend's aroma sized", "rack of ribs on a grill sized", etc.

yeah, I do that all the time... Then when there are not a lot of people at the range, I go place the target at the 300 yds mark and put my name on it, and the date... it is sorta funny, because no one takes it down for a week or two...

I also do tons of MOA groups at 300 yds, almost every time with a single shot...

That is how most internet heroes accomplish such impressive feats....

Learned that from Big Schtick.

Was this post the math final Dan? If so I sure failed that one... however I really did enjoy those Blue Dot Groups...

I've heard somewhere where some guys get some fantastic groups with that powder

But then I've heard Blue Dot has killed more people at a range session than Eboli, Small Pox and Cecil B deMille movies, combined.
you must be a brave and bold man!

My brain is starting to hurt!

Well, I got it. Good one, flint.


Jerry

OK, The .22 RF group above is one half baby fart size. That work?

Swifty, I am trying to understand your point about the math. I'll give y'all the benefit of the doubt that maybe you know each other and you are just busting his chops with the language.
But since there are 60 seconds in a minute, that means 60 SOA = 1 MOA, or, 30 SOA = 1/2 MOA. So why wouldn't a one inch group at 200 yards be about 30 SOA? What am I missing?
(Of course we know that 1/2 MOA at 200 yards is actually 1.047", not 1.00", but I don't think that's your point)

Standing by for some learning,
Rex

That depends on how much you like the smell of baby farts. That's all relative, I suppose.

And measuring distance in 'chains'.

MOA. Now SOA? You fellers are some darn fine shooters. I’m still working with MOTBSOAB. Minute of the broad side of a barn. 🥴

😂😂😂

Is that classical or relativistic speed?

🤣 LMAO

Unless I screwed up 3000 FPS is 4.5454545455 furlongs per second

But now you have to reduce that to furlongs per fortnight!

Sub-MOA sounds better than "integer" SOA.

I think that's right. So 3000 feet per second would be very close to 5.5 Megafurlongs per fortnight. IIRC, a chain is 1/10 of a furlong. Not even going to think about rods.

An 8" group would be just a bit better than a millifurlong. Many shooters are working to perfect their .8 millifurlong five-shot groups.

There y’all go making my head hurt again.

Jerry

If we used inches/second it would sound much more impressive. EX: .220 Swift MV = 48,000+ “/sec

Well, SOA would certainly seem to be more in line with the precision that the real 'fire members shoot on a daily basis.

Guess I'm going to have to buy an algebraic calculator before the next trip to the range.

Bored, were we Dan? I like it, regardless. It is all just simple math.

SOA. "Save Our Ass" extended into the ballistics world.


Touche'.

I’ve hanged some targets that looked like I’d hit it with a shotgun after the 5th round. Wtf?

😬🦫

Sublime thoughts appreciated.

I usually use MOA and have used SOA. I don’t shoot at 100 yards is the main reason.
Figuring MOA is just a matter of a little math. Measure the distance to the target converting to inches measuring the group in inches and figuring the angle. After figuring the formula put it in a spreadsheet. Then if I shoot at 60 meters or 100 meters or wherever I’ve set the bench or set the targets I get a more meaningful (to me) group size measurement.
I’m now shooting groups and entering into the spreadsheet all the pertinent data, though I don’t always enter the velocity. I had a chronograph that was a real PIA to use. Now I have one that mounts on the barrel - easier to use, but I don’t always measure velocity. Maybe I will do more so in the future, IDK. It’s like a sage stated in this forum “A loonies work is never done”

Check my math, but I reckon 3000 FPS = 5,498,176 Furlongs per Fortnight. That's some serious speed right there, I don't care who ya are.
You'd have a fair bit of deceleration over the course of the fortnight though.

;o)

Rex

And, when that bullet hit the ground at the end of that fortnight, a bullet dropped when it left the muzzle would land at the same exact time.

If we were hunting buck Deer Mice, it might be necessary, but we aren't.

Boredom is at High Tide.


Jerry

Anyone have a recipe for boiling water? I can’t find mine anywhere.

ha ha hee hee

Jerry

The guys in white coats are hanging around in my yard.

Here ya go. Scroll done for details.
https://www.food.com/recipe/how-to-boil-water-445229

If it’s any help, 1 Foot per Second = 1833 Furlongs (US) per FortNight

Carry On

I hope they catch some of these guys soon! They need help. Some are disturbed. S M I L E

Jerry