I'm jumping into the annealing game. I've kept my brass separated by whether it was fired 2x, 3x 4x, etc.
Once I anneal, does the counter reset to zero? That is, can I mix brass that was fired 3x before annealing with brass that was fired 5x before annealing and not have problems? Or do I still need to track the number of firings?
In my experience you need to keep track of the number of firings--and not mix brass that's been fired a various number of times. Or at least that's what this OCD handloader has been doing for many years.
I never let them go more than 4 firings before annealing, having experienced split necks more than occasionally after 5 firings.
I have one box of Winchester .375 H&H brass that I use for cast bullet shooting in my Ruger #1 Tropical. The count on the box shows they have been reloaded 20 times so far. The isn't a really light one running IIRC 50 something grains of either IMR or H4350. The load came from an article in an American Rifleman booklet I bought at the NRA convention in Phoenix AZ in IIRC, 1918 or 82.
The brass for this rifle is loaded five times. Afer the fifth load the brass is annealed and trimmed if necessary. Also, they are neck sized and a full length resize is done right after annealing. Crimping would shorten neck life so as the rifle is a single shot no crimp is used.
The load is used as practice quick reloading tool. Recoil is about like a stiff heaving bullet load in a lightweight 30-06. the 20 rounds give ten practice loads with sufficient recoil to simulate a hunting scenario. Paul B.
I kept records and tested accuracy after annealing. I anneal after every fourth reload. Accuracy was always best on the second firing after annealing. Slight differences on all the other loads.
I kept records and tested accuracy after annealing. I anneal after every fourth reload. Accuracy was always best on the second firing after annealing. Slight differences on all the other loads.
How do you anneal? The reason I ask if it's done correctly, the accuracy should be great from the first firing afterward. If it takes until the second shot to shoot best, then the annealing probably was done too "hot," which isn't uncommon, especially among handloaders who follow older instructions to heat the neck until it starts to glow. They don't have to get that hot to anneal.
The cases for my benchrest rifle result in just as fine accuracy in the first shot after annealing as subsequent shots--and the rifle is accurate enough to tell.
Annealing is a simple task that some want to turn into rocket surgery.
You should only be annealing the case neck and not the body. I use a propane torch in a darkened room. Using my bare hands, I rotate the neck in the hot spot of the flame. As soon as a dark cherry red begins, toss them in a bucket of water.
It takes no time to anneal 40 cases.
In regards to how often, it depends on how much you are moving the brass during the resizing process. I generally only neck resize, accordingly I am moving very little brass so every 4-5 reloads and I anneal. If you are full case resizing, then you may want to up it to every two to three reloads. If you're moving a lot of brass and seeing increasing AOL, then you will need to trim and anneal more often.
While annealing resolves work hardened brass (brittle) and improves case life, it significantly improves case neck tension and that can/may translate into accuracy gains by improving velocity SD.
Annealing is a simple task that some want to turn into rocket surgery.
You should only be annealing the case neck and not the body. I use a propane torch in a darkened room. Using my bare hands, I rotate the neck in the hot spot of the flame. As soon as a dark cherry red begins, toss them in a bucket of water.
It takes no time to anneal 40 cases.
In regards to how often, it depends on how much you are moving the brass during the resizing process. I generally only neck resize, accordingly I am moving very little brass so every 4-5 reloads and I anneal. If you are full case resizing, then you may want to up it to every two to three reloads. If you're moving a lot of brass and seeing increasing AOL, then you will need to trim and anneal more often.
While annealing resolves work hardened brass (brittle) and improves case life, it significantly improves case neck tension and that can/may translate into accuracy gains by improving velocity SD.
The above is the key. It is dependent on how much you are moving (work hardening) the brass. I had a 375H&H die that reduced the necks by .014. The necks would split on the 2nd or 3rd sizing. Had it reworked to only size .004. Now the brass doesn't need annealing for several loadings but I still anneal with a propane torch every 4th or 5th loading.
Annealing is a simple task that some want to turn into rocket surgery.
You should only be annealing the case neck and not the body. I use a propane torch in a darkened room. Using my bare hands, I rotate the neck in the hot spot of the flame. As soon as a dark cherry red begins, toss them in a bucket of water.
It takes no time to anneal 40 cases.
In regards to how often, it depends on how much you are moving the brass during the resizing process. I generally only neck resize, accordingly I am moving very little brass so every 4-5 reloads and I anneal. If you are full case resizing, then you may want to up it to every two to three reloads. If you're moving a lot of brass and seeing increasing AOL, then you will need to trim and anneal more often.
While annealing resolves work hardened brass (brittle) and improves case life, it significantly improves case neck tension and that can/may translate into accuracy gains by improving velocity SD.
You may think it's that simple, but you're repeating some of the old myths of annealing. In reality it's even simpler.
As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, brass does NOT have to be heated until it starts to glow to anneal. In fact, when it gets that hot, it often becomes too soft to shoot well, which means it needs to be rehardened by firing again at least once. I know this from considerable research and experimentation, including several annealing with everything from the candle method to an AMP--and I even experienced it with the AMP in one instance.
This turned out to be due to the setting they advised for a specific brand of .30-06 brass. I had some of that brand, but it turned out to differ from the brass AMP has tested, and the first shot after annealing resulted in poor accuracy. But after that shot, accuracy went back to normal for the load--which in that particular rifle is around 1/2."
Also, there is no need to quench annealed brass in cold water. Unlike some other metals, it anneals just the same whether quenched or simply allowed to air-cool.
This is also why the even simpler candle method works so well: It does NOT overheat the brass. Instead it just reaches quick-annealing temperature, and accuracy is great from the first shot afterward.
I kept records and tested accuracy after annealing. I anneal after every fourth reload. Accuracy was always best on the second firing after annealing. Slight differences on all the other loads.
How do you anneal? The reason I ask if it's done correctly, the accuracy should be great from the first firing afterward. If it takes until the second shot to shoot best, then the annealing probably was done too "hot," which isn't uncommon, especially among handloaders who follow older instructions to heat the neck until it starts to glow. They don't have to get that hot to anneal.
The cases for my benchrest rifle result in just as fine accuracy in the first shot after annealing as subsequent shots--and the rifle is accurate enough to tell.
Absolutely.
Properly done, it's a stress relieving process (more correctly....'drawing back') rather than true annealing. The actual temperature needed to accomplish this draw back is about half of what most would think it is. From the .17's to the .30's, I use the same draw back temp. As you point out, correctly drawn back cases will show no accuracy difference on the first shot. If they do, the gun just showed that the draw back temp was too high.
I kept records and tested accuracy after annealing. I anneal after every fourth reload. Accuracy was always best on the second firing after annealing. Slight differences on all the other loads.
How do you anneal? The reason I ask if it's done correctly, the accuracy should be great from the first firing afterward. If it takes until the second shot to shoot best, then the annealing probably was done too "hot," which isn't uncommon, especially among handloaders who follow older instructions to heat the neck until it starts to glow. They don't have to get that hot to anneal.
The cases for my benchrest rifle result in just as fine accuracy in the first shot after annealing as subsequent shots--and the rifle is accurate enough to tell.
Absolutely.
Properly done, it's a stress relieving process (more correctly....'drawing back') rather than true annealing. The actual temperature needed to accomplish this draw back is about half of what most would think it is. From the .17's to the .30's, I use the same draw back temp. As you point out, correctly drawn back cases will show no accuracy difference on the first shot. If they do, the gun just showed that the draw back temp was too high.
Good shootin' -Al
Would you mind disclosing what that temperature is? Thanks
The amount of annealing that occurs is approximately directly proportional to time, and inversely to temperature cubed (in Kelvins). So an increase in temperature has a great effect on the time required. You can anneal at fairly low temperatures, if you're willing to let the process run for 24 hours. At 720 F, it takes several seconds. At 820 F, it takes just a few seconds. It's not just a matter of just the right temperature. It is a matter of the right combination of time and temperature.
I've used my wife's gas range, a torch, an inductive heater (too small for this job), the candle method, and the alcohol lamp method. The one I like best is a molten mixture of potassium and sodium nitrate, heated to 438 C (~820 F). That gives very precise, uniform control of heating. These "salts" are very compatible with brass, but it is best to rinse the brass thoroughly after annealing.
As some have pointed out, dropping the brass in a water bath is not necessary, but it does prevent burned fingers.
[[trying to imbed video]]
Well, apparently there is some issue with imbedding the video. Here is the link:
I don't know of anyone who has run a rigorous test on how often you should anneal. JMO, after five or six firings seems about right. Four is probably also a good number. As far as I know, annealing resets the stress cracking clock, so you can mix cases fired any reasonable number of times once they have been treated.
As far as I know, annealing resets the stress cracking clock, so you can mix cases fired any reasonable number of times once they have been treated.
denton,
The only problem with this is that there are other case-life variables (case head, shoulder bump, primer pocket, etc.) that are not affected by annealing, that influence the decision to keep batches of brass organized according to the number of firings. But based strictly on the hardness/stress of the case shoulder and neck, I believe you're correct.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
You hold the case with the tips of your fingers, halfway down the case body from the neck. When it gets too hot to hold, you drop it. Generally the time required is at most about 10 seconds.
The method, as I have written about a number of times, was developed by a friend named Fred Barker, an avid handloader who wrote frequently for Precision Shooting magazine. He used Tempilaq inside the case mouth, and experimented for a while to develop the method. I found out about it when he sent me a copy of the article. I tried it, and it has worked very well.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Bad neck tension changes the size of your groups - it’s well known.
It’s also well know there are many people who would never find this out and are just happy with a 1-2 inch group.
Then you have guys more like me that start getting upset if you can’t get a rifle to group well…. And have figured out the brass gets too hard at some point.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Talking about once fired cases of which I have a big lot for my new 6,5x57R... once annealed and shot a second time, is it advisable to re anneal again before their second FL resizing and third shot?
Or, otherwise, will the effects of annealing last for subsequent FL resizings snd shots?
Would you mind disclosing what that temperature is? Thanks
Using Tempilaq Liquid, 350 @ the shoulder/body junction. With this little 'fire ring' tool, about 10 seconds per case does it. I do stand them up in a pan with 1/2" of water and just tip them over with the ring as it comes off. The water acts as a heat sink and lets you spend a bit more time over the neck/shoulder junction....rather than just a 'flash' heat.
This temp isn't as aggressive as most will advise. Hornady's kit includes 475 degree Tempilaq, for example.
The goal (at least mine) is to simply stress relieve (draw back) the neck and shoulder enough to keep the neck tension consistent, eliminate any die changes (shoulder 'bump' as the case work hardens), while not changing the 'first shot' accuracy.
On this subject.....if anyone is looking to get into annealing, I have this lightly used, like-new Bench Source unit available. It's from the estate of a very good pal and I'm helping his family rehome his equipment. PM me here if you have any interest.
Many Thanks John... is it possible to anneal without using the Tempilaq?
Yes. Have done it a bunch of times without Tempilaq with the candle method--or using a torch in the same way. That's possible because Fred Barker used Tempilaq when developing the method.
Should also add that there's no absolute temperature for annealing brass. It can be annealed as low as 480 degrees--but it takes a LONG time. Even at 600 degrees it takes an hour.
The temperature that generally works best is around 750 degrees--which is a LOT cooler than heating brass until it glows. Which is why 750-degree Tempilaq is pretty popular--but it also doesn't have to go inside every neck. You can count how long it takes heat one case, then just heat the others to the same count. This is how I use my Anneal-Rite tool, used when annealing larger bunches of brass.
When Hornady offered their simple annealing tool, basically a socket-type for use with a drill motor, they included 475-degree Tempilaq, which they suggested applying just BELOW the shoulder of the case. This was to avoid over-heating the case below the neck-shoulder area.
There are all sorts of ways to accomplish the job without over-annealing--the reason there's an entire chapter on the subject in THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK II.
Yep, Fred knew his stuff. I talked with him a few times at the SHOT Show, and eventually went prairie dog shooting with him at least twice, on various writer deals. A very good shot!
I make a notation in my reloading notes: I, II, III, IIII to denote each loading when I get put up the diagonal 5th talley mark, I anneal.
I learned about annealing from this very august forum, and started off by simply counting the loadings I was getting off a single batch of 30-06 brass. When I got to 7 loadings, I started getting neck splits. From then on, I adopted the aforementioned procedure. I've gone the succeeding 15 years without a neck split.
Would you mind disclosing what that temperature is? Thanks
Using Tempilaq Liquid, 350 @ the shoulder/body junction. With this little 'fire ring' tool, about 10 seconds per case does it. I do stand them up in a pan with 1/2" of water and just tip them over with the ring as it comes off. The water acts as a heat sink and lets you spend a bit more time over the neck/shoulder junction....rather than just a 'flash' heat.
This temp isn't as aggressive as most will advise. Hornady's kit includes 475 degree Tempilaq, for example.
The goal (at least mine) is to simply stress relieve (draw back) the neck and shoulder enough to keep the neck tension consistent, eliminate any die changes (shoulder 'bump' as the case work hardens), while not changing the 'first shot' accuracy.
Good shootin'. -Al
Al, I use the same set up. It should be pointed out that 10 seconds is not a "golden rule". Using a temp stick, the difference in time required between a 223 Rem case and a 223 WSSM case is (much) more than 10 seconds, for example.
I doubt anyone would get into real trouble guessing at it or using the candle method, but there are very significant differences in time required, due to variables such as flame intensity, case starting temperature, flame proximity, water level, case length and case / neck thickness.
Should also add that there's no absolute temperature for annealing brass. It can be annealed as low as 480 degrees--but it takes a LONG time. Even at 600 degrees it takes an hour. The temperature that generally works best is around 750 degrees--which is a LOT cooler than heating brass until it glows. Which is why 750-degree Tempilaq is pretty popular--but it also doesn't have to go inside every neck. You can count how long it takes heat one case, then just heat the others to the same count. This is how I use my Anneal-Rite tool, used when annealing larger bunches of brass.
When Hornady offered their simple annealing tool, basically a socket-type for use with a drill motor, they included 475-degree Tempilaq, which they suggested applying just BELOW the shoulder of the case. This was to avoid over-heating the case below the neck-shoulder area.
There are all sorts of ways to accomplish the job without over-annealing--the reason there's an entire chapter on the subject in THE BIG BOOK OF GUN GACK II.
I'm glad you commented on the the temperature required to make brass glow. In the video below the brass is being heated to the point where 750° tempilaq painted inside the neck melts. While the flame color changes the neck is no where glowing. The room was completely dark when the video was made.
Al, I use the same set up. It should be pointed out that 10 seconds is not a "golden rule". Using a temp stick, the difference in time required between a 223 Rem case and a 223 WSSM case is (much) more than 10 seconds, for example.
Yep...neck thickness, etc. all plays a role. I'm going to check the next batch with the digital temp gun we use on the dyno to check header temps.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
the discoloration from annealing is caused by the zinc oxidizing, so I don’t go nuts with annealing, but given I work my brass a bit so I anneal every 2nd loading…
the discoloration from annealing is caused by the zinc oxidizing, so I don’t go nuts with annealing, but given I work my brass a bit so I anneal every 2nd loading…
As mentioned earlier, I once ran an experiment with my 6PPC benchrest rifle, which groups 5 shots in "the teens" with its best handloads. Shot the brass 4 times after annealing, and as long as the cases were all fired the same number of times, accuracy remained so close to the same there wasn't any statistically significant difference.
But must admit I didn't test it with "mixed" brass--meaning freshly annealed, or fired 1-4 times after annealing. Might have to try that sometime!
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Lol
Some folks would rather shoot bullets than load bullets. I would think the only way to see repeatable accuracy from annealing is to anneal every time before you reload.
I'm jumping into the annealing game. I've kept my brass separated by whether it was fired 2x, 3x 4x, etc.
Once I anneal, does the counter reset to zero? That is, can I mix brass that was fired 3x before annealing with brass that was fired 5x before annealing and not have problems? Or do I still need to track the number of firings?
thanks,
Okie John
They never set to zero because hopefully, you're controlling shoulder bump. Also you still have primer pocket problems. I do keep brass sorted by firings, and I anneal every time.
Check out what the best F-Class shooters and long-range BR shooters are doing. There are a few lessons there as to what works the best. I believe Erik Cortina has a few youtube videos on the subject.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Lol
Some folks would rather shoot bullets than load bullets. I would think the only way to see repeatable accuracy from annealing is to anneal every time before you reload.
TrueGrit,
As I noted in a shortly before yours, once as an experiment tried not annealing the brass for my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle for four firings--and as long as the cases had all been fired the same number of times since being annealed, they grouped so similarly there was no way to tell the difference. But I did not try mixing cases that had been fired a different number of times.
As for shrapnel's comment, he is well-known among some of his friends for sighting-in rifles on rocks. He may have fired an actual group on paper sometimes, but if so he's kept it a secret....
Do I need to anneal my K-Hornet brass more often, as it is thinner?
Having owned a bunch of .22 Hornets, .22 K-Hornets and both kinds of .17 Hornets (Hornady and Ackley) I would say no--but I would anneal after every four firings, because the thinner necks often tend to crack more easily.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Lol
Some folks would rather shoot bullets than load bullets. I would think the only way to see repeatable accuracy from annealing is to anneal every time before you reload.
TrueGrit,
As I noted in a shortly before yours, once as an experiment tried not annealing the brass for my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle for four firings--and as long as the cases had all been fired the same number of times since being annealed, they grouped so similarly there was no way to tell the difference. But I did not try mixing cases that had been fired a different number of times.
As for shrapnel's comment, he is well-known among some of his friends for sighting-in rifles on rocks. He may have fired an actual group on paper sometimes, but if so he's kept it a secret....
Yes, that is true, but I would rather shoot stuff than shoot groups. If I were to anneal, it would be 17 Remington cases, as they seem the most often to be the ones that crack. I will trade shot rocks to anyone that is willing to anneal my 17 Remington brass…
Might also mention that it can also depend to a certain extent on resizing method. If you use a typical sizing die with an expander ball, neck brass gets "stressed" 3 times: first when squeezed down by the die's neck, second when pulled over the expander ball, and third when fired.
If you use a neck-bushing die or Lee Collet die, then the neck only gets stressed twice, when sized down and fired, which tends to result in more firings before necks start to crack--or get so hard they affect accuracy.
Might also mention that it can also depend to a certain extent on resizing method. If you use a typical sizing die with an expander ball, neck brass gets "stressed" 3 times: first when squeezed down by the die's neck, second when pulled over the expander ball, and third when fired.
If you use a neck-bushing die or Lee Collet die, then the neck only gets stressed twice, when sized down and fired, which tends to result in more firings before necks start to crack--or get so hard they affect accuracy.
This is true, both theoretically and in my experience. The amount of work-hardening depends on the amount of "working". Tight-necked chambers vs loose ones also seem to affect this. Flaring case mouths and crimping also seem to have a pretty noticeable effect - you tend to get little splits right there at the case mouth in quite short order.
has anyone used the lead pot method. you dip the neck in the lead til the case just forward of the head gets hot.
I have. The only negative is the time for the lead to reach temperature and possibly leaving small lead deposits in the neck.
When I did it, I left the fired primers in place and that way the air trapped in the case keeps the lead from entering the case very far and leaving lead deposits in the neck or shoulder. The small amount of soot in the neck after firing usually helps prevent the lead from sticking too. If it did that, a little poke with something like a small screwdriver would pop it out. All I ever saw was a small bit of lead left in the neck.
How long? I used Mule Deer’s method of counting how long it took for the brass to get hot about half way to the bade of the case.
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Then why are you answering an annealing question?
The question was.....How many rounds do you fire without annealing?
Shrapnel answered that he has fired 10s of thousands of rounds without annealing! It was a correct answer to a direct question!
It seems you have a reading comprehension problem but that seems to be very common here on the fire! Please reread the question
I like to anneal every third or 4th firing it depends on when I can see that the neck seal is not consistent. When I see burned powder becoming a bit excessive around the outside of some of the necks it's time to anneal
I have annealed exactly 0 cases. If I get a cracked neck, I throw the brass away. I doubt I have thrown away more than 200 cases, if that, in 50 years of reloading and 10’s of thousands of rounds fired...
Then why are you answering an annealing question?
The question was.....How many rounds do you fire without annealing?
Shrapnel answered that he has fired 10s of thousands of rounds without annealing! It was a correct answer to a direct question!
It seems you have a reading comprehension problem but that seems to be very common here on the fire! Please reread the question
Tristi, The OP ask exactly three questions: "Once I anneal, does the counter reset to zero? That is, can I mix brass that was fired 3x before annealing with brass that was fired 5x before annealing and not have problems? Or do I still need to track the number of firings?
None of the questions the OP asked resemble your misstated "How many rounds do you fire without annealing?" It seems you're the one with the reading comprehension problem, among the other well known shortcomings you constantly demonstrate here. GFY.
Check out what the best F-Class shooters and long-range BR shooters are doing. There are a few lessons there as to what works the best. I believe Erik Cortina has a few youtube videos on the subject.
Funny you would mention that.
My father set a couple of records for his age group in F-Class when he was still shooting. When I asked him about annealing, he said that he had tried it and never saw any benefit from it.
Check out what the best F-Class shooters and long-range BR shooters are doing. There are a few lessons there as to what works the best. I believe Erik Cortina has a few youtube videos on the subject.
Funny you would mention that.
My father set a couple of records for his age group in F-Class when he was still shooting. When I asked him about annealing, he said that he had tried it and never saw any benefit from it.
I'm giving it a try anyway.
Okie John
I think its either F-Class John or Erik Cortina that have several youtube videos where the practice is tested. Check it out!
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