Had a couple of new powders to try in my .270 wby with 140 accubonds. One was rl26. This was my 5 shot group with 70 grains.

I didn't try other loads with 26. I've never done a ladder test. I guess I'm not starting at the start.
I get similar groups with imr 7828 and 130 np with rl19.

This is with a 3.25 oal. I tried going longer with the 7828 loads (67-70 grains shoot about the same). Maybe it's as well as the rifle and I together can shoot. Is this good enough for stretching it out to 7 or 8 hundred? I've shot at 500 and held about the same moa. I like the one hole groups I see on here and wonder what my first next step should be. I use standard ribs fl dies. Just bought a concentricity gauge but haven't used it yet.



I'd appreciate any advice on a next step with either 7828 or rl26. I'll try to answer if there are other factors or info needed. Thanks in advance.

C’mon folks, lets get this party started,

Free bump.

Its double grouping. I'd reduce the OAL. Accubonds seem to want to be off the lands a bit. Seems odd though, as I'd think it would have a Linda Lovelace throat. How far off the lands are you running these loads? I see an OAL, but no reference to how far off.. You say you just bought a concentricity gauge. I'd also suggest you use it to set up your seating die for minimal run out. Should help a bit. Your group size isn't horrible, but the double grouping is what would concern me.

Are you using wind flags?

Could probably at least another half-dozen factors that affect 100-yard group size.

Thank you, John. 😉

Good shootin' -Al

Yep. It was a little thunderstormy yesterday, but wind was not horrible when I shot the top group with rl26. I tried to time my shots when the flags were hanging limp.

I fired 3 consecutive shots gave it about 5 minutes and fired the last 2. The other groups were shot on another day and I don't remember the conditions. I posted them just to show that is consistently the way it/ I shoot.

I shot another group yesterday with rl23, after the 26 group. They basically strung in a line just under 2 inches

.
This is another group from another day. I don't know if I pulled the flier or it was the rifle or load.
The trouble is there are so many variables, I don't know what I should tweak first.

I don't have a good rear bag, I've just used a jacket or rolled up towel. I've used a Harris bipod and a Caldwell tackdriver bag with about equal results.

Thanks again for thoughts. Maybe the pursuit of perfection is gonna drive me to alcohol. I always considered it good enough until I spent time on this site.

Any more I pick a load and set a couple different OAL at 0.04 apart. Nearly always find a winner.

Rick,

What scope and rifle?

Thanks bsa, I will definitely be putting the gauge in practice. I'm just getting started in a sense. The rifle is a 700 action with a lilja barrel, McMillan stock, so the freebore may not be standard. I bought this rifle back in 2001 from a custom shop. Some weatherby factory ammo is too hot and I get a stiff bolt. However, some of the best groups I've ever shot were with factory 130 particians. With my handloads the 130s are just a tad better on average than the accubonds, but I'd like to use the accubonds for the better coefficient.

I'm kind of ashamed to admit, but I don't know the distance to lands. I've tried using a marker to color a bullet and feed it barely seated in a case to measure, but kind of screwed it up and got frustrated. I guess I should buy a tool if I'm going down this road.

Hey Jordan,

Just posted about the rife. Scope is currently a tract Toric 2.5-10. I've had other scopes on it, but averaged the same group size.

Yep, this is correct. The 110 AB definitely likes jump. I would seat deeper as suggested. Both of mine and a friends 25.06 like those bullets at least 50 thou jump.

Sounds like a nice setup. Is the barrel floated, or does it have a pressure pad, etc.?

It is floated, no pressure pad. But if I really squeeze I can make the forend contact the barrel.

Rick, if factory ammo is too hot, there's little-to-no freebore.

On the R26 load, you just put a single load of 70gr through it, is that correct? What is the book max with that bullet/powder combo?

How many layers of printer paper or dollar bills can you easily slide between forend and barrel? Floated all the way to the receiver, or with the barrel shank bedded?

You can roughly check throat length by seating a bullet long, colouring the bullet ogive with a black sharpie, and trying lightly to chamber. If it chambers, check for rifling marks on the bullet. If none, seat longer. If you see rifling marks or you can’t chamber the dummy round, seat deeper. Keep going until you just barely see rifling marks in the black colouring, and you have a rough COAL to lands.

That is correct. I recognize not the best load development strategy. Nosler doesn't list 26 on their site or books that I have. The alliant site just showed one load at 70.9 grains for the 140 accubond. Doesn't specify min or max.

I also forgot to ask if there is a load that the rifle shoots consistently really well.

This is about the best I've been able to with the 130 particians and 69 grains of rl19. It seems to shoot these particians best, but for sake of coefficients I'd like to squeeze the accubonds.

It is floated all the way to the receiver. I haven't tried stacking paper. I can see about that when I get home. I'll try the measurements again too.

If you can squeeze the forend and barrel together, the barrel isn't floated. That would be the first thing I'd change.

This^^^^^^^

Guess I'll break out the sockets and sandpaper. Thanks guys.

Are you trying to make a target rifle out of a hunting rifle ? What size group are you looking for ?

Sounds like a real nice rifle. Should be a damn good shooter. Like others have said, so many variables. One thing about threads like these is I will assume the shooter is "doing their part". However, in one of your posts, you mention not having a good rear bag... Buddy, that is critical!! A rolled up towel or sweatshirt may work in a pinch, but do yourself a big favor and get yourself a good leather rear bag. As soon as you do, you'll see what I'm talking about. As for the front: Your Harris bi-pod should be fine. I use the type that swivel and they work just fine off the bench or in the prone position. Yes, there are better ones out there, but the Harris is quite stable and good enough for checking groups. I've done it for years. The only real drawback to using a Bi-pod is your barrel has to be really freefloated, so the weight of the rifle does not apply any pressure from the stock to the barrel. If it hits anywhere, it will affect the harmonics. Especially if you preload your bi-pod, then you will get a POI shift and groups may get wonky. Bi-pods work great, just make sure when you use one, it does not apply ANY pressure to the barrel. That's not to say you can't have a really rigid stock and a full length bedded action (including the barrel). So, back to my original post about seating depth. The targets you posted in your OP are text book examples of double grouping. 3 in 2 out. Like I said before, that generally means you need to shorten up the OAL. Since it is a custom barrel, it may not have a real long throat. Also for finding your lands, you don't need any fancy equipment. Grab an old Speer manual and look in the how to section and they go over a simple process that works like a champ. It requires you to soot the bullet. I use a bic lighter. Of course, don't do it by your gun powder!!! You can use one of your once fired pieces of brass and a good accurate caliper. Guys have been doing it this way for a long time. No need to pay good money for a tool you really don't need. Also, I have to say I hope your rifle is properly glass bedded before you go and hog out that barrel channel. If not, you may find your accuracy gets worse. Just a warning.. Good luck with it and remember to get a good leather rear bag. By good, that does not mean expensive either.


This is one of my favorites and it didn't cost me a ton. Sometimes I even label my rear bags, for which rifles they fit best:


Also, at 100 yards, I don't worry too much about the wind. It doesn't have a huge affect on accuracy/precision, but you still have to be mindful of it. Also, I've said this 1,000 times here. If you have to wait that long between shots, there is something mechanically wrong with the rifle. By "mechanical", I mean glass bedding done improperly where the action and barrel are stressed or there are residual stresses in the barrel from machining. A good rifle will throw 10 shots downrange, one after the other and put them all inside of an inch or less... Even a "good hunting" rifle should be capable of sub 1.5" 10 shot groups, one right after the other.... Most of mine are 1" or less.. I shouldn't post pics because that just pisses people off, but here's how a good rifle will fling them down range in the wind:

That was the first group fired with a "new to me" scope I had just got off of ebay for $100, so no it was not even dialed in perfectly yet... I later threw that scope on another rifle (Steven's 200 22-250) I had and sold to a buddy as a package deal. He wanted something to hunt yotes with. It (the Steven's) outshoots his $3,500.00 Christensen Arms and I only sold it to him for what I had into it ($500)..
That same rifle (new to me 7mm rem mag) still shooting about the same moa out at 300 yards.


I know, it's killing you guys because I'm posting 3 shot groups. Here's the same rifle with a 5 shot group. Again, at 300 yards:

That's a "hunting" rifle and the load wasn't developed for that rifle, but shoots well enough.

For a bipod off the bench for evaluating accuracy, a smooth piece of Masonite, etc with a piece of waxed paper on top of it can make a big difference in group size and repeatability. The bipod feet slide the waxed paper backwards on the Masonite and get rid of the bipod jump and skip.

Good shootin' -Al

Like I said in the op I’d like to be confident at say about 700 yards putting it in the vitals of an elk. I may never hunt elk, but it giv s me a goal. Maybe it’s good enough. But I see folks on here shooting better groups and I want to do the best I can.

BSA, that is one nice range. Is that out near Burns?

My 2017 hodgdon's manual shows a 73.5 grain max load of 7828 and 140 gr Hornady. Don't know what they used for a test rifle or if it had a freebore.nare you getting any max pressure signs? My markV 270 wthby thrives on max loads. Just something else to think about.

Thanks bsa! You’re part of the inspiration for this post. I bought this rifle from a pretty reputable company back in 2001. I can see it was bedded and I assume properly except it may need the Chanel open d up a bit. So, I’ll try that and see if I can screw it up. I’ll be getting a rear bag in short order. I’ve been wanting to but not made it a priority. It’s been frustrating me.

Thanks again!

Thanks Al,

I recall JB posted that even benches made a difference. I’ll try some wax paper and Masonite.

So many variables…..

I appreciate everyone’s responses!

Since you have never hunted elk, I will put this forth. The odds of seeing an elk at 700 yards and having the time to dope out the wind and trajectory is pretty low. Do poll on here and you will find 95% of elk killed are less than 200 yards and a big percentage of those are under a 100yards.

It is nice goal to try to wring out the best possible accuracy of a rifle but not necessary to hunt elk.
Many rifles just won't shoot any better than what you are seeing . YOu probably already know, each step of changing powder, primer,brass, bullet, seating depth,stock design, rifling twist, bedding qualities, concentric necks, annealing, warm barrel, cold barrel, and a hundred others may only yield a minuscule reduction of group size. The .270 cartridge in a 130 gr bullet is known for ease of finding decent load.

Stuff 60 grains of H4831 behind a 130 gr Sierra Match King, seat .02 from lands and you will be fairly able to see what your rifle can do. I not any better I wouldn't be chasing a lot of ghost to make it do better. But than, I'm just a grumpy old fart that doesn't know much.

Isn't the OP shooting a 270 Weatherby?

Saddlesore, I sure won't be backing up to shoot any elk. I have bow hunted them, but not with a rifle. I'm just trying to get the best I can from the rifle. I appreciate your thoughts.

Mathman, it is a weatherby cartridge.

I've got a 6mm creed that was a cheap brownells barreled action that I bedded in a vanguard stock with j.b weld. That $400 rifle groups a tad better than this pedigried job that I gave $2400 for in 01. I've killed a dall ram, Mt goat, mule deer and a bunch of white tails with it. I'm just on a kick to try and wring it out some.

Scenar shooter and others on here have me wanting to pursue the illusive one hole group.

You won't get three with that combo but honest 3/8-1/2" 3 shot groups should be doable.

I'd highly suggest JBing the barrel and removing any hard carbon buildup in the throat before doing any further serious load work. That way, you're starting from the start with a totally clean barrel/throat and the groups aren't bigger because of hard powder fouling.

Good shootin' -Al

Nobody has any business shooting any game animal at 700 yards.

I just recently did that and dyna bore coated it. It should be good to go.

For sake of conversation, I just messed with the hornady concentricity gauge a bit. My 6 creed ammo loaded with lapua brass and 105 scenar and a hornady die set, of those I measured are within 3 thousandth.

I measured a few of the .270 wby rounds. Has some within 3 thousandth and some off as much as 7 thousandth.

I'm gonna sand my barrel channel some and separate my straightest rounds and see what I can do with them.

Thanks everyone, for your input. I know I'm what big stick calls a window licker. I'm comfortable with that. But I'm learning a few things here and there even at my age. Y'all have made this a fun day. I am thankful for you.

I think i'm safe in saying I haven't see anyone mention testing different jumps off the lands. it's the easiest, best way to fine tune your rifle's accuracy. Both the Barnes Bullets and Berger websites write about it. With a Barnes all copper bullet, start your powder testing at .050" off the lands; Barnes like to jump! With lead core bullet it depends on whether or not your shooting competition or hunting. If targets are in order Berger, IIRC, suggests starting "in" the lands and about .005" to .010" off the lands if hunting. Once you settle on or at least narrow down your powder charge Barnes Bullets suggest shooting more groups in .025" off the lands, even out to .250" off the lands....or more. Berger suggests .040" increments. Try it. It usually works!

Alan

It was mentioned that Accubonds like a lot of jump. Twice. Flew right over his head.

Flew over whose head?

I worked on getting some seating depth measurements last evening to see where I’m at. When I get a chance to load some again, I’ll be seating incrementally deeper and see what happens. Thanks though….

Rickshaw, have read your posts on shrinking group size, and would like to suggest you pull up a You Tube video on "Proper hand placement for Shooting". I have been doing this and shrank my groups by taking this guys advice. When placing your hand on the stock and just before pressing the bang button, release your hand and finger and if the scope cross hairs move off target, you start all over again. Continue this till you get the cross hairs not moving off target at all, press trigger and bullet will hit where you aimed. Takes some practice but after few shots you will see your groups tighten up. This guy gives some good points on shooting and helps shrinking those groups.

For the distance you want to shoot, I’d go with a heavier, higher BC bullet than a 130gr.

I’d be looking at 145/150 gr. There are even heavier weight .277 bullets, but unless you are fast twisted, then they may not be an option.

The 145 ELD-X or 150 SST/NBT would be good places to start.

Your powder choices seem spot on, but you’re going need to work up a few difference charge weights to shrink those groups. I personally start at 0.010” off the lands, and run 3 shots in increments of 0.5 gr. I usually find something sub MOA within 2gr /150 fps of max.

My most accurate loads in my 300 Win, 300 Weatherby and 7mm RM all with RE 26. I’d play around with that powder for a while. The loads in these three mentioned cartridges all are near but not maximum pressure and all are using partitions.

I don’t have a 270 Weatherby darn it.

The other powder that my 300 Win likes and is a close second on accuracy is H1000 and 180 grain Partitions.

I would wait to touch that sand paper till you had a good rear bag and did some testing with your bench set up and a few of your other rifles I’ve seen many examples of groups like yours that shrank when the rifle got shot by the next guy who was a practiced “bench” shooter with the stuff for gun support they liked.
It’s hard to get those great pictures of perfect groups and we all want to fix the rifle first. But fixing our technique is usually a more productive path

Eggzackly. Had a friend (F-18 pilot, so it’s hard to tell him anything) who insisted on setting up his “rest” in the hood of his truck parked sideways @ 100 yards. No rifle ever shot good enough to suit him of course. “Let’s build you an honest to goodness BENCH and I’ll lend you my front and rear rests. You’ll see a profound difference I bet.”

Short story long, he now has legit bench rests at 100, 200, ->>>600 yards and is now finding any groups over one moa worth bitching about. Finally got him to listen but it took over a year.

You can tell a fighter pilot but you can’t tell him much 😁. Especially F-18 guys.😮

I can’t tell him a damn thing. Fun guy to hunt with though. Obviously intelligent as hell, way over my pay grade, but still a fun guy to be with. Love listening to his stories of the old days flying off his carrier.

Got another close friend that flew F-15’s over there. He’ll listen to me for some reason.

I have mentioned many times, in various places, about testing free-floating by inserting a thin spacer between the front end of the receiver and the stock, just behind the recoil lug. A thin plastic bread-bag "tie" makes a perfect shim for such a test--and unlike gradually sanding the barrel channel usually REALLY floats the barrel. Have seen group diameter cut at least in half with this simple trick, which also isn't permanent, so doesn't harm the "original condition" of older rifles.

But whatever....

Got a Colt Sauer 270 I’m trying that trick on this weekend. Has the speed bumps up front and want to find out if the thin barrel might take favorably to being floated. Stolen bread bag tie earlier today.

Thanks for the reminder, John. Indeed I’ve read that a few times. Sorry if you get disgusted with neophytic ineptitude.

Good afternoon sir,

I've read thru and just want to point out a couple things............

Having an exact measurement off the lands means nothing! Finding a seating depth that your combo likes does! I'm assuming you have an idea where the lands are just not an exact location? If I'm within 20thou of the lands as a starting point I'm good! I could be 10 off or I could be 20 off it doesn't matter in the end as long as I'm not jammed into the lands to start with

It was pointed out that when double grouping occurs seat deeper period! I agree with that statement! When I'm double grouping I seat 10 thou deeper than go in 3 thou increments. If I'm not double grouping just go in 3 thou increments. Seating nodes can be as close as 6 thou apart so if you make a big move you may skip over some great seating nodes.

Your load was double grouping so seating 10 thou deeper and than going in 3 thou increments could easily clean it right up.

The load looked promising to me! I've seen rifles go from your groups to one hole with what I've mentioned above

Just my 02 and good luck with your shooting


Trystan