So, everyone's opinion, what would you accept as acceptable 3 shot group size at 100 yards. For hunting out to 400 yards, for big game. I shoot a 308, 150 Barnes ttsx 46 of varget, and get 1.1 to 1.2. Average. JB especially want your opinion

This is something to consider! What a gun shoots on one day cannot be used as group size. To get a realistic and accurate representation of how well a rifle shoots it must be shot at the same target over a period of time! Generally speaking a 1" group at 400 yards may open up to 3"

With that said it sounds like you have your rifle dialed in!

In a hunting rifle I prefer to keep groups 3" or under at 500 yards over a period of time. My long range specific build has done 10 shot 2 1/2" groups at 500 with 6 out of those 10 being inside an inch

Trystan

The question really is "can you, from a solid position such as you'd use in the field, shoot groups small enough at 400 yards to keep them all in the vitals". The rifle's capability is only part of this, especially as measured in groups shot from a bench at 100 yards. Your ability to shoot, to judge distance and wind (and adjust for them), to adopt a good solid position, to control your breathing, all come into play.

Having said that, if the rifle can't shoot somewhere close to 1 moa from a bench, consistently (not just 3 rounds that one time) you are making it hard for yourself to reach out to 400 under hunting conditions.

A rifle that's truly reliable for shooting 1 MOA groups would hit within 2 inches of your point of aim at 400 yards provided the rifle is sighted in correctly and your aim is true. Is that really essential for big game hunting?

These are made for different sized game animals.

I think this addresses the crux of the problem, namely, how well you can shoot in the field under real hunting conditions. Having a rifle that can shoot small groups from the bench is nice, but a rifle that shoots 1.5 MOA should work fine out to 400 yards if you have the shooting skills to use it well.

Field positions are the deciding factor. If I had a 2 MOA gun/load and no good rest, I'd not be shooting 400 yards. From a good field rest, such as over a backpack where the whole gun is supported, I'd have no problem taking such a shot. 2 MOA would probably be my cut-off as far as confidence in taking such a shot.

I've taken lots of shots 400+ yards at deer and elk with shooting sticks, but my ability to do that seems to be waning, according to last summer's varmint hunting, where I couldn't seem to get comfortable or steady, regardless of the time I took. Many of those were taken with an honest 1.5 MOA gun/load, but POI was rarely more than 3" from POA, with a couple glaring exceptions.

It's always been said that a 1.5 moa rifle is capable of shots out to 400 yards on a big game animal. Whether the shooter can maintain the 1.5 moa is another question all together. I'll shoot most of my rifles off of a pack or bi-pod in the prone to test precision and skill at 400 yards, quite often. However, none of my rifles shoot 1.5 moa. They will turn in sub moa results at 400 yards, in a stable position like in prone with a bi-pod. Even with no support under the rear of the rifle. I tend to practice that way, since that is what my long range varmint silhouette shoots require.. The wind is what is going to throw off those groups and make them larger than 1.5 moa at distance, as well as shooter error.. Minimize shooter error and learn to judge the wind and you can make some damn long shots on big game animals. 400 isn't that far and TOF isn't much, but stretch it past 600 and then you have to be more leery about movement of the animal from the time you pull the trigger until the bullet reaches it.

IMHO using paper plate sized targets or water filled 1 gal milk jugs at various distances from FIELD positions with lots of practice will let you know your limits. YMMV This technique sure humbled me when I first tried it. It did however become very rewarding and got me off the bench and into much more realistic shooting scenarios.

This whole thread should be mandatory reading in hunter ed classes.

My rule of thumb is whatever group size you can consistently get in practice (and NOT from on a bench) plan on doubling that group size in the field to account for various field conditions, i.e. lousy field position, too damn cold, out of breath, adrenaline dump, etc.

I realize everything you find gentlemen are telling me about shooting in the field how well I can do etc. etc. I'm looking at this from a reloading position. What sort of accuracy should I strive for to be able to shoot out 400 yards. At what point do I stop trying different powders, changing bullets, changing distance from the lands etc. how good is good enough

1" @ 100 yards IMO

It's about confidence. I suggest you actually shoot at 400 yds from a few positions. Figure out for yourself what your limits are.

I was all gung ho to get into the LR game for some years, making several good shots on animals out to just shy of 600 yards. Then I started shooting at 600 and beyond in varying conditions, from sticks, pack, off an ATV, off a bench, and saw some crazy things. As a result, I have little confidence in my ability to hit past 600yds if there is more than a breeze from field positions. I practice more on smaller targets at shorter ranges, in ridiculous winds, now.

I'd say that if you're averaging groups of 1.1-1.2 inches at a hundred yards, your rifle is accurate enough to shoot to 400 yards on big game. But you also have to have confidence in your rifle and your shooting to take 400 yard shots, and that's a personal decision.

I take few shots at game over about 300 yards, although occasionally I shoot further. I killed a nice mule deer buck at around 400 yards this year, but that is the exception for me and I prefer to get closer. In this case I didn't see a way to get closer so I took the shot.

I should mention that I've shot out to 600 yards in matches without a problem, but for me, shooting at animals in the field is different, and I'm much less willing to risk a bad shot in that situation.

How about you actually shoot targets at 400yds long before you worry about shooting game at 400yds.

That's the way it is supposed to work.

Groups don't matter, hits on vital zones do matter.

Never ever shoot game further than your prior practice on targets proves you can do the deed.

no one shoots better at 400 yards than they do at 100 yards. wind, shakes, timing, fuzzy eyes, parallax, intervening air movement, ability even focus attention on the heartbeat and breathing... all easier off bench.

I had the same question: can I load better than I can shoot? the answer for me was yes!! borrow a perfectly balanced 6PPC rifle, and compare actual 400 yard targets with your expectations.

NO ONE SHOOTS 400 hunting yards better, or as well, as they do shoot 100 yards at the range.

my longest shots were unavoidable open spaces without cover to allow closer shots.

I thought the topic was the adequacy of the rifle and ammo's accuracy potential, not the shooter's abilities. Guess I should go back and read the OP.

I’d be striving for 0.5-1 MOA.

This!

Shoot your groups on paper and see what has promise or the one that has your bullet of choice. It's really true what Burnzy said that "groups don't matter, hit on vital zones do matter".

After my 100yd shots to get on paper I would put some clays out at 200, 300,400, and 500yds. If you can hit those that is sufficient and they're reactive and fun and cheap. Ideally this should be done in the field off a pack or other method you'd use. Then shoot the broken pieces. When you can break these repeatedly then your probably good to go.

Personally I practice this but on the steel animals
I practice sitting and offhand up to 400yd on small elk silhouettes. You can get extremely good and shockingly you can hit kill zone offhand with an good degree of consistency. But this is in an static situation. Still it makes easy to put shots 100,200,300 without running around looking for a space to go prone or find a rest. Its made me fast and freaking far more effective.

I agree the groups don't really matter. The ability to place is of far more relevance.

Exactly. He can practice at 400 yards from here to eternity, but if his current load is only capable of 6moa, he's pissing in the wind. He wants to know adequate moa from his rifle & load, then he can start working on his distance skills.

Great advise from guys, but getting the cart infront of the horse, imo.

Teeder, River Rider, He clearly stated he is getting sub 1.2 moa, almost anyone can agree that is sufficient at 400. All that is left, is the ability of the rifleman to deliver that accuracy from field positions. Hence the direction of the thread.

OP's question, "what would you accept as acceptable 3 shot group size at 100 yards. For hunting out to 400 yards."

This is the answer.

I personally would like to see less than 1" @ 100yds.
But 1" would be acceptable if that the best you can get from your rifle and load.
Then comes lots of practice in field conditions to see if you can put it in the vitals with said gun and load @ 400yds.

Just a reminder, deer, like most big game, have gotten smaller AND harder to kill. Therefore you need near-bench rest accuracy and magnum power. At the same time, hunters have become so weak they cannot carry a rifle that weighs more than 6 lbs "all up".

This my thinking also. 0.5-1 MOA and trigger time.

What you say is true and some sidebar talk doesn't hurt a thing, but sometimes threads go too far out on tangents and good additional relevant thoughts never get put to paper (so to speak). This is a good thread and it shouldn't be allowed to degenerate into arguments over marksmanship and field technique.

No harm, no foul.

Well said RR.

Almost any modern Rifle Scope Combo, will do the job to 400 yards with factory ammo, it's still the Indian, not the Arrow. rounds down range and in field positions, and spent brass makes a shooter, head stamp has very little to do with it. Rio7

And this statement was really all that was needed. Most guys just start jumping his ass to go right to shooting at 400 yards without quantifying the required rifle accuracy first. That's what he was asking for.

Still, lots a great info on this thread.

I had a 338 win mag that put 5 shots into 1" at 100 yards and still killed game yo 400 without missing.

For out to 400 yards?

< 2 MOA from field positions.




GR

My thought is 1" @100 equals 4" at 400. Doubling that for variables introduced due to field conditions and you're 8". That's gotta be max.

Load for 1" and then go shoot.

Even from big bores, I aim for moa or better. Better is best. Then burn lots of it from whatever positions and variable ranges. Confidence is earned, and familiarity with rifle and load can't be minimized! Recoil must only be a subconscious thing if intending to shoot from prone.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I've killed big game from pronghorns up at 400 yards--and some even farther--with rifles that wouldn't average any better than an inch for 3-shot groups at 100 yards, but have a couple of other comments:

3-shot groups do not adequately define a rifle's accuracy with a certain load. Five-shot groups come statistically much closer, with 6-shot groups slightly better. Generally 5-shot groups will average about 1.5 times as large as 3-shot groups.

400 yards isn't considered very far these days, but even at 400 wind-judging tends to be as important as group size.

There are a lot of keyboard warriors who are convinced that 1' at 100 yards automatically translates into 4" at 400 yards. Get out there and shoot and you'll discover the error in this assumption pretty quickly

Shoot at 400 and see if you can meet spec.

A centered 8" group will kill deer stone cold every time.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it for a while.

ETA: As MD said, reading the wind is very important. Study your cartridge's wind calls. Make sure you practice in the conditions under which you will shoot. Don't shoot an animal if you are unsure of your wind call.

When I was much younger and hunting in an area where 100 yards was considered a pretty long and rare opportunity…..I wanted and strived for 1” 5 shot groups.

Much older, and living in a region where 300+ yard shots are more the norm…..I like 3/4” or less groups at 100 yards. But now generally am only shooting 3 shot groups!

With component shortages/expenses, plus I’m getting old and lazy, I do very little load development these days……mostly just shoot to prove zero for hunting! memtb

John,
What about two, 3 shot groups shot into the same target as an alternative to 5 shot groups?
I ask this because for example my standard contour 243's after 3 shots are considerably warmer than my Mtn contour barrel 308 after 5 shots. My concern is throat erosion. I have a Fluke thermal gun and have recorded temps of my rifle barrels immediately after shooting 3 and 5 shot groups.

The first shot from a cold barrel is more important than group size in my opinion

Casey,

Obviously I’m not John, but the point of shooting more shots into the group is not to test how the barrel handles heat (that’s a separate experiment), but to understand the statistical distribution of shots fired under the same conditions. For a hunting rifle, it would ideally test the statistical distribution of cold-bore shots, so allowing the barrel to fully cool between each shot wouldn’t be a bad thing. So two separate 3-shot groups fired into the same target is essentially a 6-shot group, in the context of testing your rifle/load’s precision.

learn your rifles potential with the load you're going to use. then go shoot a few rounds of NRA high power silhouettes. this is a totally offhand game you will be humbled. then maybe try some bench work off of a bipod and other positions and you'll get the idea of what field position accuracy may be.

I understand you meant 1" at 100 yards.

The factors which cause what you're talking about can also swamp the difference between 3/4" and 1" loads at 100 yards when they're stretched to 400.

Jordan Smith, Good point. There is actually a small lunatic fringe of rifleman, prior to a remote or expensive hunt that will go out and shoot one or two shots a day at the same target for a few days in succession....some say lunacy, some say exploring the finer points of Murphy's Law.

Jordan,
That's what I was wondering if two, 3 shot groups would still be statistically valid as a 5 shot group. I'm doing this because of throat erosion rather than first shot, cold shot POI. Thanks!

I do this quite often, the 3 shot group, another the next day, etc, etc, etc. I'd much rather do that than wail away with 10 shot strings at the same sitting. Since I've never shot more than 3 times at any game animal in my 51 years of hunting, I'll probably keep doing it that way. I am with jwp though.......1st round cold bore hits is where it's at.

If that's the standard, then shoot something like ten cold bore shots on the same target.

I agree, once I get a load grouping well that's the next thing I check. As an example my 308 Mtn rifle HATES a clean bore, or even a slightly fouled bore--it can shoot as much as 3 1/2" high with a sparkling clean, cold bore, compared to a well fouled bore.

I set out a 12" circle at 600 yards getting ready for an elk hunt. I shot 1 shot and left, three days latter I shot 1 shot, 4 days latter I came back and fired 1 shot. I then gathered the target and had 3 shot in just under 2" at 600 yards
I figured that was good to go

I'd rather do multiple 3 shot groups if that's ok with you. ;After load development they're always around 1/2" anyway.

I’d say so!

We keep 1.5-2MOA stenciled circles on our gongs at 300/400yds and I like my rifles to keep the cold bore shots in there. Some do a fair bit better. I often bring a half dozen rifles to the range and only shoot a couple rounds through each at those gongs. Saturday morning I drove down to re-paint them afterwards and counted 11 out of 11 hits in the circles. They’d have all been kills on a deer. We also shoot a lot at life-sized hog gongs at 200/300yds, as it’s good fun and practice for the sort of hunting we do.

I’m not fond of 100yd paper, beyond seeing if a load will group half decent and is relatively zeroed.

Regardless of what some here think, you're rifle will be fine (just not great) but the real question is, will you be capable at that range?

Your limitations magnify whatever the guns limitations are, & vice versa.

No substitute for practice.

MM

Actually, the best way would be to have 2 or 3 targets - a first shot target, a second shot target, and if desired, a third shot target. Seven to ten range sessions with no wind (or as close to no wind as you can get in your locale) because you're assessing the gun and load combination, not your wind reading and compensation abilities. First shot (cold bore) into its target every time, second shot into its target every time, etc. Software is available to analyze the targets and provide statistics, or you could do the analysis by hand or in a spreadsheet.

You can analyze each shot in the shot string separately and see if there's any difference among the first, second, and third in order. You could do an aggregate group at any time with any set of the 14 to 30 shots (e.g., sort by ambient temperature ranges). You could even go beyond ten range sessions and get longer-term data. The minimum I would do to draw even preliminary conclusions would be three range sessions with first shot and second shot targets.

Separate topic related to wind effects:
First time I ever shot at 600 yards was an eye opener, but I didn't realize at first what I was seeing. The vertical dispersion wasn't bad - about what one would extrapolate from groups at 100 and 200 yards. However, the horizontal dispersion was awful, and what I didn't realize immediately was that even the very light breeze had a tremendous effect at 600 yards (and from more experience I found wind effects are still very noticeable even at half that distance). Therefore, eliminating wind effects to the extent possible is absolutely critical to assessing a rifle's and load's capabilities.

It's more valid, in terms of representing your rifle/load's true precision, than a single 5-shot group.

What type of big game? Vital area size is part of the equation. For pronghorn or deer, I would probably try for 0.75" at 100 yds. For elk, the vitals are larger, and your load is probably good enough.

I was just rolling with the first round, cold bore theme.

This.

I *think* for a constant cross breeze the deflection grows a bit more than quadratic with distance.

I'm going to disagree. I think it's exactly quadratic.

Don't forget impact velocity

my hunting rifle barrel is still dirty from 3 or 4 years ago maybe longer ? in the past it shot just under an inch 3 shot group at 100yards and i was happy with that always .this year i loaded Hammer bullets for this rifle with the dirty barrel and now it shoots 1/2 inch 3 shot groups i did 2 of these 3 shot groups both were 1/2 inch / 100 yards i said good enough took rifle deer hunting took 1 shot at 125 yards was a bang flop on the shoulder of the buck where i aimed at buck was standing when i smack him. barrel still dirty will check it next fall before deer season again.i will be using Hammer bullets again too with the barrel still dirty.

Regarding 3 shot groups and what if anything they can predict:

Since anyone can look at a 10 shot group and pick out 3 shots that look great or bad, and since any of those 3 shot choices are just random in the 10 shot cluster I got to wondering just how many possible combinations there could be.

Here's the math I came up with. If it was just numbers instead of bullets it would be simple; 10 digits from 0-9 would be 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000. That meshes rather well with what we know about counting. With bullets its a little different, we don't want to use the same bullet hole twice so the math is 10 x 9 x 8 = 720 possibilities. Seems high doesn't?

Well the number is right, if the order of hitting is important. Lets suppose we don't care too much about order and concede that group ABC is the same as CBA or BAC. That reduces things a bit, since there are 6 ways three things can be arranged. 3 X 2 X 1= 6. That brings the total number of combinations down to 120. 720/6 = 120.

Of those 120 possible combinations there are 8 combinations of 3 that would exactly reflect the 10 shot group. You don't need math for that; if you have the 2 most widely spaced bullet holes in your selection the third doesn't change anything.

So 120 possibilities, 8 right answers, and 112 wrong ones. You could calculate the odds fairly easily; 120/8 = 15. So the odds of a single 3 shot group matching the 10 is 1 in 15. How about multiple 3 shot groups? Well, if you shot 2 3s and a 4 you would have 10 shots invested. Your best group would mean exactly zero for predicting the 10 shot result. The average wouldn't mean much more since that is just a number saying that half will be higher and half lower than the average number. Your worst group might have a chance. A 3 to 15 chance if you wanted to calculate it.

Or just shoot the 10 shot, or the 2 3s and a 4 and stack the targets. Your chances of prediction are one heck of a lot better than 1 in 5. It might be close to 1-1.

For load development, I like to settle on .75-1.0” at 100 yards then tune the zero to a 200 or 250 yard zero depending on the cartridge ballistics and scope reticle. I’m not a turret twister and generally keep my shots at game under 350 yards. I don’t like to miss, although I missed a coyote last month because I guesstimated the range hurriedly and was off by more than I care to admit. He went into hyperdrive when that LRX landed between his feets.

We do tend to sweat the small stuff way too much. Consider group size, for example. If our rifle shoots an eight inch group at 400 yards (about two MOA) that does not mean we’ll miss our aiming point by eight inches, but by a maximum of four inches. The probability is that the hit will be a bit closer than that.

What matters as much or more than group size is a rifle’s zero and it’s ability to hold it, as well as practice in field conditions that include wind doping and the knowledge to make appropriate corrections.

As a certified Loony, I like most here will obsess over getting tiny groups, fussing endlessly with loads, rifles mounts and scopes. But when it boils down, I am OK with a 1.5 MOA rifle and scope combination that puts the bullet in the same place boringly year after year.

When I say “OK”, I’m not really happy but know I won’t miss that 400 yard deer or elk. The Loony in me still wants sub-MOA, despite the knowledge that it just doesn’t matter.

As far as wind, it's effects multiply as you get further out. At 400, wind effect is approx 2X what it was at 200 in MOA. In inches, that's about 4X greater.

300 to 600 is a similar story, wind is approx 2X in MOA. In inches, it's over 4X.

And even a very slight wind gust of 5 mph (or 5 mph difference in wind speed from one shot to another) can turn a 0.75" group into a 1.1" or 1.2" group at 100 yds.

The difference between the groups the OP is currently getting and what several of us suggested as a goal for targeting deer at 400 yds is the same difference as 5 mph crosswind at 100 yds.

I think it's an exponential dependence, but I'd have to go through it to confirm.

Quadratic functions deal with squares, and are are parabolic in shape. One value varies as the square of another. I think this is the mathematical way to describe wind drift over distance.

I have a 243 that averages about an inch at 100 yds, that i have shot 3 shot groups of 3" @ 500 yds. from prone field position. The best way to find out about 400 yd accuracy is to hang a target at 400 yds

It takes a 400 yard shooter to make an accurate 400 yard shot......there are very few that can do it in the field. Always a lot of chest pumping shooting from the bench. Just my gray haired experience. As far as accuracy from the bench, I want my rifle to be as accurate as it can be......I am good with 1" and no fliers.

I shoot for (pun intended) 1 moa…. from bench! memtb

I'm a wee bit familiar with quadratics.

I recognize that. Yet you posted that wind drift would be greater than quadratic. How to you figure that?

I double-posted...like a champion.

I looked at a scenario using a ballistics calculator and the numbers didn't quite fit a pure quadratic growth.

^^^^^^^^^^
Truth

Well there is sitting and prone also.

Actually a 10 shot group will tell you more about your rifles accuracy potential.Can show if your rifle is bedded properly and a host of other things.Is it important to shot 10 shot groups for hunting.You are correct,no.

Yes, that is very true.
While Newtonian drag force increases quadratically with velocity, the trajectory of a projectile experiencing Newtonian drag is very difficult to solve analytically without some assumptions and approximations. An assumption that allows for an analytical solution is that the projectile is fired at a negligible polar angle (nearly horizontally), which is the case that we are interested in. Wind drift increases linearly in lag time, which increases linearly in flight time,

wind drift = B * wind speed * cos(theta) * lag time
= B * wind speed * cos(theta) * (flight time - vacuum time)

where B is some coefficient that depends on the units you use for the various parameters, theta is the azimuthal angle of the wind vector (full value at theta=0), and vacuum time is the time of flight if the bullet were in a vacuum.

Flight time is a function of the bullet's horizontal position, described by t(x)=[(exp(x*C*p*A/2m) - 1) * 2m] / (v_0*C*p*A), where x is the horizontal position, C is the drag coefficient, p is the air density, A is the cross-sectional area of the bullet, m is the mass of the bullet, and v_0 is the muzzle velocity.

If you insert the flight time, t, for a given distance, x, into the wind drift equation, you will see that wind drift varies exponentially with distance.

True but it doesn't matter, again as related purely to the rifle/load's precision, whether they are all fired as one group, or fired as three separate 3-shot groups plus 1 additional shot.

Good answer, but my question was more about physics than math. How do we account for the drift that varies more than the square?

I didn't "account for it", I simply observed that it didn't quite fit the pure quadratic model. I'd have to study up to be conversant with a proper derivation.

We may have been posting at the same time, but I addressed this above in post #17903025.

... and where one can put that round, under field conditions.

Far more a rifleman problem than rifle.




GR

Thanks!

Back when I was young, most rifles that were affordable, and the ammunition of that day, would be lucky to produce better than a 5-shot 2.5” group… I guess nobody ever killed deer at 400 yards back then.

Well, one thing's for sure: Deer hadn't yet shrunk to the size of prairie dogs, as they apparently have today.

Well said, I like to be able to shoot my rifle any time I pick it up and with a clean, cold barrel shoot a 1” shot. Put gun up for that day, go back another day and do the same shot and it be 1”….same conditions as close as possible. If will do that I will go hunting and be confident that it will put it where I aimed on any shot I take out to 300 yards because I know where it will hit out to that range. Now, if I take a 400 yard shot I might can make it and I might not….have hit iron from that distance BUT I might not press the bang button because I might miss and I don’t like too miss. Anyone that can shoot at that distance and know they can make it is a good shot….I don’t know that yet.

I guess I'll be the guy that has to say it:

Maybe people hunted closer back then, too.
My deer are closer to archery ranges on average, but everyone's terrain is different. I never see a nice buck standing out in a field. It's usually some nasty brush-choked schit-hole.

Or hustling across a lane/road in the thick stuff without checking up. That's what I run into fairly often, especially in the rut. 3-4 seconds to spot him and mentally range him, get him in the scope, judge him, and make the shot (or pass).

Lord have mercy you nerds! Save it for rocket science.
Double the yardage, double the MOA/Mil wind correction plus a click or two.

Word for word, letter for letter, this^^^^^^^^^^^
Both posts

I agree with everything above, and I'm not a looney!

I have a M98 in .30-06 that will repeatedly put 3 into an inch at 300 yards, with no wind, and a good solid rest. Under those conditions, I'm still - as shooter- maxed out at 500. I just won't shoot at an animal beyond that. I once , using the snow machine windscreen for my rest, killed a caribou right at 300 yards with it, and a few seconds later, after another ranging, a second one at 433 yards. Both bullets went where intended.

The 11th bullet down that barrel killed one at 370 yards.

I'd consider 2MOA to be aceptable to 400 yards in my hands, under above conditions.

But I wouldn't be happy about it!- After 30 years, and literally a ton or more of game, I fixed my 700 .243 from 2MOA to MOA. Haven't killed anything with it since.... Nor anything previous over 200 yards.

I used it to take my first Dall ram. It was sufficiently accurate at 20 yards, and the next year, for one at 100 yards.

How to tell us you don't know how to shoot in the wind.

This is completely wrong.

Do you not see the laughing face behind this....

I’ll take some tutelage on the question of wind shooting at 400 yards, if I’m doing something incorrectly.

I’ve always used this Kentucky windage method and it has produced rapid death. Shooting a 30 cal 180grain bullet at 400 yards into an ungulate in a R2L or L2R wind up to 20-25MPH with a standing broadside animal.

Me, wanting to place a shot approximately 6-8” behind the shoulder - I will hold on the rear muscle crease of the shoulder and let her fly. I’ve never put a tape measure to the entrance hole, but my hand stretched out has either touched or just about touched the hole.

I happily admit that I will shoot in this wind situation out to 500 yards. Anything nearing 600 yards, If I can’t close the distance. It’s a pass for me.

🦫

NO one wounded or missed either.

IMHO I can handle a less accurate gun on targets and competition because I can control my rest and wobble a lot easier.

On animals your wobble area is a lot more than most will admit. Even my slung up wobble area while competing was over .25 moa wobble.

I"ve seen wobble and pulse beats be as big or bigger easily than group size.

So my take on this. 400 yards. I want more accuracy than most will. I accept less than some will. My current test is a 4 inch diamond and I usually shoot 100-500 appx 100 yard increments. Off of a rest. One shot each distance. If the gun can't stay in that diamond as long as I'm solid on the wind, then I'm still working on the long end of that load. It tests the sig box drop program too constantly.

So lets just say if I took say 2 moa instead. 8 inches at 400 yards. Then lets ad in an honest average field wobble of 2 moa again. 16 inches. And you err on the wrong side of the wobble on the wrong average shot.. at least 16 inches off at a minimum if my brain is working this morning. Then add in a wrong distance, angular issue, wind guessed wrong... it adds up really quickly IMHO.

Clay targets seem like a fair test at some of the mid ranges like 300-500 yards as a target.

All of that said if I can't control the wobble part on my end at any distance I just won't shoot. We have those dog size deer in TX everyone makes fun of. A good size kill zone is going to be not quite a volleyball in size. Not lots of room for error.

Just my simple minded thoughts. More accuracy can never hurt. OTOH I see folks show up with 10,000 dollar plus rigs all the time that aren't sighted in and then can't even make use of what they have.

Maybe the better question is how much human error will you accept at 400 yards?

It can't be the same for all different bullets at countless different velocities.

The BC of a bullet will impact the rate of how much more it moves laterally downrange due to wind compared to how much it moves in the first 100 yards. With a lower BC bullet, the bullet slows down more quickly. Thus, it takes more time for the bullet to go a certain distance (and that is compounded the further out you go) and thus there is more time for the wind to move it laterally per distance it travels downrange. A higher-BC bullet will be moving faster downrange. So, the wind will have less time to affect it per unit of distance out at, say, 600 yards compared to how much it moves laterally during the first 200 yards--compared to a lower-BC bullet.

So, it can't be a pure quadratic function. It varies depending on all of the circumstances, including the BC of the bullet and the initial muzzle velocity.

As Jordan Smith posted above, wind drift is dependent on time of flight and wind speed, so it is independent of distance of bullet flight. As you state, muzzle velocity and BC will determine TOF at a specific distance.

Good post rost. I can definitely understand that. I see this thread pop up occasionally, but rarely read it. Yours makes a lot of sense, as I was thinking this morning that there is a difference between accuracy and precision. This thread is about accuracy, at 400 yards. I thought about it more and realized it should be about how close to POA you are, not group size. We always want to focus on group size, that would be precision, not accuracy. For me, I want to keep all my shots within 1 moa from POA (where I want to hit the critter). That is roughly 8 inches (diameter circle) at 400 yards. If you fall out of that 1 moa requirement you place on yourself, it's time for more practice. As you pointed out, that is the "human error" and "wobble" that is affecting where your bullet is landing. Also keeping in mind this thread is about 400 yards. 1 moa may be too much for a 700 yard shot and extremely small for 100 yard shots. 700 requiring more like 1/2 moa from POA, or roughly .550 MOA to remain within that 8" "volleyball" sized kill zone. Then at 100 yards, that 8" kill zone only requires 4 moa accuracy. Most guys/hunters should be able to do that offhand. If not: More practice... That is my take on accuracy. I would have posted pics for a better explanation, but some guys just get pizzed!!!! These are also requirements I place on myself. I strive for 1 shot kills. Others mileage may vary.

That's always been my goal and where I stop looking.
I'm a hunter, 400 yards is along poke for me and not possible most places.
Have killed a couple deer right around that range.




One thing that always puts me off about the 2-3moa being good enough is the fact that
Not all shots are at the chest. Or in the open. Your opportunity might be in a head shot at 100
yards with little else visible. (Had it, made it)
1 1/2 deviation from perfect leaves no wiggle room for error.

Or hustling across a lane/road in the thick stuff without checking up. That's what I run into fairly often, especially in the rut. 3-4 seconds to spot him and mentally range him, get him in the scope, judge him, and make the shot (or pass).[/quote]

That's what I had to deal with in SE Texas. Sometimes they crossed out on a pipeline right-of-way for a "tad" longer, ha. I got frustrated and just stayed on game trails in the woods. Me and ol Mod 94 picked them off around 30yds average, ha.

It works out to 600, Johnny MIC'Gutshot.

That's farther than you have any business shooting at big game.

This was almost gutshot because of a bad wind and elevation call. But he posts it anyway under "whatever it takes".

Did you range this with a laser, Johnny? Why did you blow the elevation?

From shot to shot, accuracy is certainly dependent on precision.

Just a minor detail to point out, but most guys on the thread are talking about accuracy requirements in terms of ES of the hypothetical group, but you are talking about half of the ES. So when I say that I want my bullet to hit within 1 MOA at 400 yards, that really means +/- ~2" from POA. When you're using the term " within 1 MOA," you mean +/- 1 MOA from POA. Just thought I'd mention it so we don't get wires crossed in this discussion.

Since distance of bullet travel is also dependent on time of flight, there's a relationship between wind drift and distance. Thus, as we all know, cumulative wind drift can be predicted at a certain distance of bullet flight based on the applicable environmental conditions, so if you know distance of flight you can calculate time of flight and subsequently wind drift.

"Almost a gut shot" is what kind of shot? Right in the lungs.

Old Jeff tried to give you a way out of your stupid post but you were to dumb and don't know how to shoot in the wind.

Weird but typical thread.

Bunch of dudes sitting around fantasizing and theorizing and calculating about shooting and making impacts on targets 400+ instead of actually trying to make hits by actually getting out and doing it.

You’ll learn more and faster by doing it

Seems so simple.

Makes a guy wonder how many folks get setup to shoot at distances beyond their zero and never actually do it in practice? And bad news if the first shots pst zero are on game.

As I have mentioned before ( before range-finder ) a misjudgement of range with the wind totally ignored (never crossed my mind), shooting off the handlebars of an ATV for rest resulted in me shooting a bull caribou's pecker tip off. They didn't LOOK that far away across the open tundra.

Not my finest moment.

After he laid down behind the three others, I knew I'd hit him, and at closer range, finished him off when he stood up again on my approach, at about 200 yards, where the wind was no longer a significant factor for the 140 gr .260 bullet.

Shorter ranges (and rests) are your friend.

when i am out west i always have a bi-pod ,pack or a tripod for shots at all game. in my home state of Minnesota i am in a stand with a bog tri-pod now days . wind many times that`s when you may have to use Kentucky windage some and maybe even the distance animal is at , animals don`t stand around so you can range it or check a wind gauge. that`s when you should have a very flat shooting rifle that`s accurate that you can handle cause recoil can suck too and quickly lay down or sit down if possible with a bi-pod can make a big difference. after 200 yards i need a rest to make the shot on a animal ,out too 200yards the Tubb`s stance works well for me with a decent trigger in the rifle i am using, power down too on scope.

Sadly; I think most of them. In my not super extensive guiding experience, everyone could tell me how high they hit at 100 but very few could tell me their zero range. None could tell me their wind drift unless they had worked it out on their phone, and many asked me to range shots that were inside 100 yards. It is both funny and not funny at all. Guys want to tell me how deadly they are at extreme long range but when I ask them about target displacement due to mirage I get a blank look. They haven't even heard of it. To be fair a lot of the guys I shoot F class with would do the same on that one.

Facts.

The average hunter is a non-shooting SOB

There probably isn’t many rifles with sights screwed on tight that couldn’t kill a deer at 400 yards. Twice in a row. In the rain.

Fair enough Jordan, but 1 moa at 400 yards is roughly 4" (actual of 4.188"). When you say you want to hit within 1 moa at 400 yards, that is within 4" in literal terms. However, What you are saying is you want a 1 moa group size, which would be 4.188" or 1 moa. Meaning, If you want to hit within 2" +/- from POA, that is roughly 1/2 moa from POA. That is just how it is man. Some of the fu ckinng cry babies here hate my pictures but fu ck them. Sometimes its easier to represent what someone is saying with good pictures. Here's a group that I think is big as hell from one of my new 300WBY rifles I recently put in a new stocK:

In this target, all of my shots are within 1/2 moa from POA. That equals dead dear and elk, but the group size is big as fu ck. Here's another target shot from another 300 magnum I recently bought:


Again, all shots are within 1/2 moa of POA (orange dot, incase you didn't know). Plenty good for any kind of hunting anyone does around here. We are not talking shooting whistle pigs here, but this is the kind of accuracy I appreciate when shooting at smaller targets:

In this target, all shots are within 1/4 moa from POA. 2 of the bullet holes are actually closer to 1/8 moa: Excellent for prairie dogs I shoot past 400 yards with this rifle.

I'm only showing 400 yard targets here, since that was in the OP. Now, take a look at this target. The bullet holes are close to 1 moa from POA:


It is acceptable enough for any big game hunt, but it shows you that I made a poor wind call. Just to show you that that schidt happens occasionally. Even at a measly 400 yards. I was shooting prone with no rear support. Much like I would be doing in canyon off of a pack. On a really calm day, it's easy enough to put them in within 1/4 moa of POA:


You don't need to be a mathman to figure out what I'm saying. "Within" 1 moa from POA means your group size can be 4.188x2= 8.376". In these terms, 1 moa from POA would be the measure of radius, where the center point would be your POA. We can ask him to double check my math and literal meaning if need be??

I may have to reiterate the simple fact that there is a difference between accuracy and precision. Accuracy is basically how close you can get to your target. Precision is how tight you can make your group. The question in the op was regarding accuracy. Unless he's really meaning precision???

Yes, I get your point, and you are correct. I just wanted to point out the difference in phraseology to avoid confusion.

Again, accuracy and precision are correlated. While I think the OP was simply interested in precision, here you and I are talking about our requirements for both accuracy and precision. The dispersion from shot to shot matters, as does the mean POI of all shots fired.

I have not been able to get a 400 yard 5 shot group smaller than 3 5/8" with any of my hunting rifles. My hunting scopes top out at 10x, to increase my range would I need a higher power scope, or buy a Creedmoor?

You are shooting .872 MOA at 400 yards.

This is a 100 yard fireform group from my 7mm Allen Mag. It has taken 54 whitetails from 375 to 1350 yards.

to 400, 1-1.25 moa is plenty good if you have proper rest and are confidant in your ability and equipment.

Over the last 50-some years, I have competed in BR, Fullbore (prone with a sling), "F" class, and metallic silhouette. I also hunt. I have a few hunting rifles from which I have never even fired a group from a benchrest position; yet, I feel perfectly comfortable hunting with them. In fact, NONE of my hunting rifles have been fired from a benchrest over the last five years. The only rifles which are regularly tested from the bench are those which will be used from the bench or from a rested position.
To answer the OP; if a rifle will shoot 1.5 moa, centered where you want it, it will be fine for big game out to 400 yards. Whether or not YOU will be fine is another question altogether. GD

This is what everyone forgets. Even a "2-MOA" rifle should hit within 4 inches of the bulls eye at 400 yards if sighted in properly..... of course the group size will still be about eight inches.