With all the choices we have today in hunting Rifle manufacturers and various models and calibers, what is the most underrated rifle, model and caliber. Thanks

Just to clarify ..... when you say most under rated caliber do you really mean most under rated cartridge?

Define under rated.

Under rated meaning not received recognition it deserves. I was asking for both rifle model and chambering, not necessarily rifle in one particular caliber, but most under rated model and most under rated chambering. Example Ruger 77 tang for a rifle and 35 Whelen for chambering.

6.8SPC in a small bolt action. It's an very nice low recoiling and fairly low blast with its modest case capacity. Basically it's an analog for the old 250 Savage.

.338 Federal, good luck finding one though.

I'm not a gun writer, but in current times I think the 30-30 Win. is way under rated. And so is the 243 Win.

Both of them will kill about anything under 150yds. except for huge bears. And most people of all ages can shoot them well. Factory ammo is made perfectly for each cartridge. I've seen blood trails and holes in deer from these that you would think came from a magnum round.

35 Whelen

Yep, a 22LR and a .30/30 will put a lot of meat on the table and take the wind out of most home defense issues.

Yep, a 22LR and a .30/30 will put a lot of meat on the table and take the wind out of most home defense issues.

Winchester Model 70 push feed.... I had two many years ago (late 70's vintage), one in .270 WCF and one in 30-06. Both were good shooters..... wish I would have kept them.

25 years ago I would have said the Savage 110.
It was the bottom of the barrel, but the bottom wasn't really bad.
Somedamhow it's now expensive as crap in some forms.
OP didn't ask this, but maybe it has become very overrated?
Maybe not. They have addressed its shortcomings.



22 LR.

7mm-08 and .17 HMR

Aussie and Dillionbuck got it right! 22LR

I'll expand on that chambering and add a very underrated rifle as in "not received recognition it deserves" - the Savage Mark II in .22, specifically any of the heavy barrel models. Sample of one here although with lots of supporting anecdotal evidence, but my sample will shoot right alongside a CZ 457 and a Tikka T1x at half the cost of either.

I gotta go with The Great .358

I’ll go with the .257 Roberts as most underrated cartridge. Rifle, dunno.

6.5x55 Swedish in a modern rifle with good handloads. The Swede is truly remarkable. Problem is there are a lot of old military rifles so factory ammo isn't loaded very hot. I have a Rem Model 700 Classic in 6.5x55 and it really is wonderful. Swede gets my vote.

I suspect the most under rated cartridge is the 250-3000. Most under rated rifle either the Remington 788 or the Mossberg Patriot. I also think MAC might be right with the 6.5x55 but then I have one in a Winchester 70 FW, one of my favorites.

8x57

pretty much any of the Little BR cases next to whichever size.


in my opinion the most underrated has to be the 22 BR or the 7BR

I don't know about "most underrated", but I feel like the .30 WCF in a nice little lever didn't get the credit it deserved when I was growing up. To hear it told, it was barely capable of killing a 50 lb animal at 50 yards, and the bullet would basically take a 90 degree turn towards the center of the earth at 101 yards.

I saw the damage it would do to deer, so I began to gain confidence in it. After I had shot some Black bear and a couple hogs with it, I had no question of its' ability.

Funny thing is, two major critics of the round, one a 30-06 fan, the other a .270 worshipper, switched to Model 94 .30-30s as their main rifles after getting tired of lugging their other rifles through thick wooded hills.

Granted, the two aforementioned rounds have advantages, but not when 100 yards will be a long shot.

In the last few years, it seems that there has been more acknowledgment of the .30-30's capability, and I have found out the bullet does not take that 90 degree turn, though it does drop of fast. If you're comfortable with that, deer out to 200 yards are not a challenge at all.

In Montana the .17 HMR is far from underrated. Many "gopher" and prairie dog shooters use it a lot, despite the higher price compared to other rimfire rounds.

Underrated rifle: all of the M70 push feeds

Underrated cartridge (on 24 CF): the great 270 Winchester

The “Underrated Label” needs some time looking back for perspective. Underrated, unappreciated, or unpopular; whichever, except for relatively small groups, I would toss in the 358 Win and the 284 Win for examples of cartridges.

I have no idea as to rifle model.

I would wholeheartedly agree on the 284. I do not understand why I manufactures do not chamber this in a factory round more often.

I would guess (and it's not a very difficult guess) that the .284 isn't chambered much in hunting rifles because for 99% of hunting it doesn't do anything the .270 Winchester won't--and .270 Winchester ammo and brass is far more available.

Of course, some will argue the .284 fits in lighter, "handier" short-action rifles. But the typical short bolt-action weighs about 1/4 pound less than the same model of "long" action.

And yes, I've owned two .284s, one a Savage 99 and the other a Ruger 77.

"Underrated", or hated Jim???

Underrated rifle: Howa Mini

Underrated cartridge: 300 Blackout

It would be my guess that beat up old surplus SMLE 303's have been pressed into taking just about everything on the planet.

I've not seen it bragged on much as a hunting round, or dandy Sporter.

One might opine that the 7x57 is the most under rated since that Bell fellow used it for Elephants. But the Rigby association likely negates use of that phrase.

I wonder how much game has fallen to the old H&R and New England single shot rifles in almost any cartridge?

back in 1893, Peter-Paul Mauser came out with the 1893 Spanish Mauser in 7x57. altho it lost the Spanish American War, it beat the snot out of 45-70 and the 30-40 Krag. the Brits had a hard time during the Second Boer War. the 7x57 has killed game, including elephants (WDM Bell killed about 800 elephants with the 7 Mauser).

i have killed many deer using the custom FN '98 Mauser in a 20" Douglas barrel in 7x57. my Winchester m94 in 30-30 (which JES Reboring made 35/30-30) is #1. my son has the 7x57 now. i have 3 7x57, 1908 Brazilian, 24/30 Venezuelan and the '16 Spanish Mauser.

altho it comes close, i give an honorable mention to the Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57. i have killed about 5 or 6 deer with it. Bang, flop is her name.

The reason the 7x57 "beat the snot" out of the .45-70 and .30-40 in those wars was NOT the cartridge, but the clip-fed magazine of the 1893, far quicker to keep shooting than the trapdoor .45-70 single-shot, and the side-loaded magazine of the Krag.

I have taken close to 20 species of big game around the world with the 7x57, but the cartridge itself ain't magic, as my wife Eileen and I have done the same thing with the .308 Winchester--which might be the modern equivalent of the 7x57, but with far more widely available ammo. In fact in my several hunting trips to Europe have encountered far more .308s than either the 7x57, or the 8x57--which many Americans still claim is the ".30-06 of Europe." In fact have only seen one 7x57 and one 8x57 in the hands of the dozens of European hunters and guides I've hunted with.

I had one for a while when they first came out. My best load was a 125 gr Partition over a full charge (book load) of RL22. I was getting close to 3000 fps and sub-MOA accuracy. I’d say the Swede is underrated and under-appreciated.

300 Savage, already an "improved" cartridge with its 30 deg shoulder. Had the neck been a bit longer, shooters would have rediscovered the cartridge by stuffing it with low drags and declaring it the greatest cartridge ever.

The quarter bores in general don't get much love. 250 Savage, 257 Roberts and 25-06. The first 2 have likely breathed their last breath of life in production rifles. The 257 Roberts is easy to shoot and load for and is a decidedly good killer.

Someone earlier mentioned the 338 Federal. I wish it has survived in production rifles. There is nothing in the USA or Canada that I wouldn't hunt with it. The mildest of the .338 chamberings, a short action and in the .308 family. It occupied a unique spot in between the 30 and 35 caliber offerings.

In a 2.8" magazine short action a longer neck would be counterproductive. It does very well with Berger VLD bullets in my 700 Classic.

that then let's add into the equation of weight limits. you know like NRA silhouette rifles. just a couple ounces goes a long ways long action versus short action... but yeah I know us silhouette shooters are a very small portion of the rifle market and generally build their own stuff..

but at the same time the 7-08 is keeps getting popularity
and that came from where the silhouette shooter crowd...

All good points!

Maybe I have two: the Remington Model Seven in 260Rem & the Weatherby lightweight Mark V, 6 lug bolt in 7mm-08. Both are true lightweight and handy rifles and the Weatherby one of my most accurate. The Mk V lt wt may be having somewhat of a rebound in the 6.5 RPM. The Model Seven took my first buck, a mature 4x5 Sierra muley but is out of production. The 260 lives on in Creedmoor guise but the 7-08 is becoming endangered. Two cartridges and rifles that are under appreciated!

Rifle: Browning X Bolt

Cartridge: .280 Remington

The 30-30 in a Contender gets my vote. Considering the current bullets available, it is undeniably a viable 300-yard deer/hog cartridge, features a miserly appetite for powder and has minimal recoil.

The projectiles designed for the Blackout, when launched at 30-30 speeds, are what breathes new life into this ancient round when used in a single shot. The 110 and 120 grain Barnes TAC-TX and the 110 grain Hornady CX (formerly GMX) along with the Speer 150 grain Gold Dot Bonded/Blackout-AAC have served me extremely well.

The 120 grain Barnes runs at 2625 fps from a 24" Van Horn barrel, still retains over 1000 ft./lbs of energy at 300 yards and will expand to nearly .60 caliber at that distance. With a 200 yard zero, it's only about 9.5" low at 300. Old standbys still do the job, too. The 125 grain Ballistic and Accubond and even the 150 grain BT perform well at 30-30 speeds. If someone prefers a heavyweight, the 168 grain Nosler LRAB can be driven to 2300 fps with ease and -- since it was designed to expand down to 1300 fps -- opens quickly and rather wide at pedestrian 30-30 velocities. I haven't used that one on game, but it will turn a steel gong every which way but loose and leaves no doubt as to the impact.

yes, it was a clip fed 7x57. but the 30 Army was hand fed, until it got to the Gatling gun. we learned about suppressing fire on San Jaun and Kettle Hill.

i like the 30-40 Krag. i have a sporterized 1898 Springfield Armory in 30-40 Krag that was handed down by my grandpap. he got it from his father. my dad (RIP) and my late uncle had it until they got new rifles. it is one of my go-to rifles. i use a 165gr Ranch Dog with H4198 that goes 1926fps. i have killed 7 or 8 deer and my oldest son has killed 5 or 6 deer with it. i have another sporterized Krag and two Krag actions sans bolt.

1st Krag


2nd Krag


Krag actions



i owned a 308 Winchester (Remington m760) and it was a good rifle. i like the '91 Argentine Mauser in 7.65x53, what i consider the Grandfather of the 308. i had 3 of them, but i gave two of them to my sons'.

it's a shame that the Europeans do that to the 7 Mauser. it is a great old cartridge that every handloader has to have. i haven't bought factory for about 25ish years. the only thing that was made by the factory ammo is or was my dad's '06 cartridges, 180gr Remington RN.

7 x 57

25-35 WCF…

.260 REM, 7mm-08 REM, and .17 Fireball…all cartridges that Remington introduced and then failed miserably to market and support.

Ruger #1 in a 22 Hornet

Tagging Bobby Tomek's post. Good stuff. Thanks!

222

25-35 WCF

Amen. Plus the 25-20. Two of the coolest rounds ever made.

.280 Rem , 6mm Rem

Well said!

old pine: The 7mm TCU is even better. More case capacity and easier cheaper case availability. 120 grain bullet at 2600 fps.

Bobby: I wish I had known about your success with the 30/30 in the Contender. I would not have had Bellm rechamber a 30/30 Contender barrel to 308 Bellm. Yes I get a 150 grain Ballistic Tip to 2608 fps in a carbine barrel but it is not worth the effort.

The G series pushfeeds are used by us a lot. They are available for very attractive prices and are as well made as any Model 70. My favorites are the Rangers.

Oddly, while I agree the .270 is underrated I have never owned one I kept long enough to shoot. Lots of .30-06's and .243's though.

I've had three 30-30 AI barrels and even rechambered one to the .309 JDJ before realizing the good ol' 30-30 did all I could ever need -- and with ease and simplicity.

Particularly with some of the newer powders like LeverEvolution and CFE223, the 30-30 can impress. From a 24" barrel, 2500 fps with 150s is within the realm of possibility and puts you insignificantly behind that .308 Bellm. I used a book load of CFE223 with the 150 grain Speer GD Bonded-Blackout bullet and got 2469 fps -- and it was very mild. That same charge with a 150 grain BT churned up a tad over 2500 fps.

Another overlooked Contender round is the .300 Savage. No forming/fireforming is needed, and as long as you keep loads around book minimums, it's perfectly safe for the little TC frame. And a 125 grain bullet at 2700+ fps is nothing to sneeze at. Some have asked about the "taper" of the .300 Savage and if it was a good choice for the Contender, but the case has minimal taper and features a geometry much like the highly-heralded AI chamberings.

Below, from left, are the 7mm Bullberry, the .300 Savage and the 30-30 Winchester.

Yup. In 30-06. Half the cost of rem, win, etc. The '06 will do anything. But neither was sexy at the time.

I'm inclined to agree. I've sold off all my pre-64 Winchesters a log time ago but kept every one of my push feed rifles. In all my years of playing with rifles, I've only seen one pre-64 Winchester that I've totally lusted for. A pre-WW2 M70 factory chambered to the .35 Whelen accompanied by a factory letter. I saw it around 1981 at a gun show but didn't have the $10K the guy was asking for the rifle. If I want a control feed rifle, I'll buy or build one on a Mauser action.
PJ

1885 Highwall chambered I 35 Whelen

32-40 and 348 win

Almost "just right," for almost everything.

Pity.

For me - it's the SE loaded 140 gr. 6.5x55mm.

Just right for almost anything.




GR

35 Whelen and 358. Rifle, lever action Browning.

Scarce ? Really ?

Have enjoyed owning/loading/shooting several Swedes

Mostly Tikka of course.......140 Nosler AB's rocked in it

But I did build a heavy Pac Nor barrel for a Target Savage years ago

As to chamberings, I would say the most underrated are 7mm-08 and .35 Whelen.

I'd agree with the push feed Winchesters as being under rated, but only the XTR's from the 1980's and early 90's. Those made earlier, and those Winchester kept making after bringing back the CRF Classics don't interest me.

As to cartridges I can't think of anything that I'd call under rated. But there are a lot of them that are over-rated.

If you mean in the modern age, it would have to be the old 30-30. For many decades it was the deer killing "go to" cartridge, but now people act like deer are suddenly immune to its effects.

Yep--but these days I suspect more hunters underrate the 6.5 Creedmoor these days than the .30-30--because so many "hate" the 6.5 Man-Bun, usually without ever firing one....

If someone started another thread about overrated cartridges the ones listed would be the same ones listed in this thread about under rated cartridges.


It was also known as the deer wounding cartridge. Sometimes nostalgia causes us to see things through rose colored glasses.

BINGO!

Now, even the Germans underrate it and the Mauser 98. They've gone 308.

I'd like to add the 303 British in a 1914 Enfield. It's killed everything that walks from various Enfields.

Yep! And it's due to NATO.

Have found the same thing in every one of the four European countries I've hunted in--if you include Ireland as European, along with the Czech Republic, Finland and Norway.

Didn't hunt during my visit to Germany (was touring the then-three Zeiss factories), but did do some target shooting--and yes, the .308s out-numbered the 8x57s, because there weren't any 8x57s....

---

Before it became the possession of one of our kids, my 24" Van Horn 30-30 barrel accounted for well over 100 kills -- and not a single wounded or lost animal.

Calling a 30-30 a "wounding cartridge" is just a lame excuse for poor shooting and not recognizing one's own limitations. And more recently, many even say the same about the 6.5 CM. Given proper projectiles, both of those aforementioned cartridges are more than capable for deer-sized game and have proven their worth time and again.

If a person can't cleanly kill a deer or hog with either of those two, then they won't be able to kill it with something more powerful, either.

Here's a heart of a whitetail that the 30-30 obliterated using a Speer 150 grain Gold Dot Bonded-Blackout bullet at 2469 fps MV.

EXACTAMUNDO!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

AMEN Rio7

I'm sure it's a deer wounder in your hands. It's deadly in mine

Those rose colored glasses now look at the 223 with fast twist and it is more over rated than the 30-30 ever thought of…

Sorry, it was in the P-14 version.The Model of 1917 was the 30-06 version. The P-14 was the favourite rifle for Bisley competitions during the interwar years. In the P-17, the 30-06 was a better fit than the 303 in the P-14.

By '72, I think, the p/f M-70 was a pretty good rifle.

Yes, and I knew that.


Old age strikes again.

gawd dang it!!!! i killed many of deer (one shot) with a "wounding" cartridge. gawd dang Winchester!!! gawd dang m94!!! gawd dang 30-30!!! and i was 13 yo back then gawd dang it!!!!

i'm glad that i sent it to JES Reboring and he did a 35/30-30. i would hate to think i was wounding a deer.

sarcasm included

We have a winner! Despite being used in two world wars, and being the most common cartridge in pre-1946 M98s, few people under forty or so have even heard of it. Admittedly, mine get used way less these days than the old .308.

Most underrated (underappreciated?) rifle: JC Higgins model 50 / 51.

Commercial Mauser 98 action. (FN Belgium), no thumb slot in left rail for adding stiffness. Excellent modern metallurgy for strength. Replace the trigger with a Timney. Walnut stock, back up open sights, chromed bore for corrosion protection, factory drilled and tapped for a receiver sight. Sells for under $500 to boot. That's a lot of gun for the money: well-designed, well-made, and regularly over-looked.

They are chambered in 270 Win or 30-06. Certainly not underrated cartridges.

Sorry for being a late arrival.

8X57. I have one example, my Mauser from Hell. Once I had the bugs worked out, it became the most accurate rifle on the rack. It dropped several deer for me, and it became my security blanket at deer camp. The KAR 98 with its stepped barrel solves the barrel harmonics problem in a ham-handed yet effective way. Once I re-bedded it and free-floated the barrel, it started shooting extremely well.

My buddy, John was up against the 8X57 and the KAR 98 until January of '45. His assessment was it was at least as good as his Garand. However, by the latter months of the war, the ammunition they were giving out was awful. He even ran up against the wooden bullets.

I got an insight into the wooden bullets thing the other day, reading an account of what it was like to be a German on Omaha Beach. A machine gunner reported that, when they got reprovisioned with ammo, his team got a piddling amount of regular ammo and 200 rounds of wooden practice rounds. When he complained, the guy told him that the Americans couldn't tell the difference and when he ran out of the good stuff, he should load the wooden bullets and spray the enemy to keep there heads down and then skeedaddle.


I would also endorse 7mm-08. I'm benching TMFH this year. My TC Compass in 7mm-08 is rapidly becoming my new man-crush. I've now hunted deer and boar with it, and every time, the animal has just folded up. That is similar to what I get with a 30-06 with quite a bit less recoil. I'm impressed.

BTW: It is doggone shame that TC went under. My Compass is one heck of a good rifle. I like mine much better than I like my RAR for hunting.

I have one of those wooden bullet 8x57 rounds in my collection

My thoughts, too. Just how many deer have I killed that were only supposed to be wounded, my gosh! And mine hasn't has the Nuclear Option (35 cal.) done, either.

I sure with one of the big gun makers would make a good bolt action chambered in this again. I built an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC , and it is a great cartridge...Joe

As for rifle, I definitely feel then 80s XTRs Winchester model 70. Lighter than the control round feed and everyone I’ve shot has been accurate. Smoothing feeding, well built, and the featherweights handle wonderfully.

I’ve always felt that the TC venture never got the recognition it deserved. For a budget rifle she doesn’t feel it, let it be the houge stock or smooth action and moa accuracy.

Regarding caliber. I think 762x39 is still looked down upon. Fun, low recoil and cheap that a newb or experienced shooter can enjoy on deer or hogs. If it’s comparable to 30/30. That mean it can do elk or bear.

This is what I was going to say as well. You could likely include the .35Rem in there too. No-nonsense killers at ranges where much game is killed.

For an underrated rifle, I still think the CVA Scout offers a lot for its price point. The ones I've seen were accurate, light, had pretty good trigger pulls from 3-3.5lbs, and were not expensive. Handy little "killing" rifles.

Ruger stainless M77 hawkeye in the mannlicher configuration and chambered in .260 Remington. Light and well balanced.

Interesting thread. With all the cartridge overlap - John's observation that the .284 Win won't do anything a .270 Win won't (competition rifles excepted) being an example - are we talking about under-rated or just under-used? If we're considering the latter, I'd have to vote for the 7x64. If under-rated/appreciated, perhaps the twins: 7x64/.280.

As for rifle, dunno. Probably Savage (excepting the 99s). They remind me of the old Poly-Chokes on the end of shotgun barrels: no one likes them except the guys that shoot them.

Just my $.02

.30 carbine

Possibly the 6.5 Creedmoor is underrated amongst the old guy crowd, but I'd say it's overrated amongst a younger crowd. Have seen more than one blowhard at a bar or gunshop extolling the 6.5 Crapmoor's 1000 yard game killing prowess. When pressed for more details it's typically the type who tops their rifle with whatever Vortex was on hand at Scheels, fires a box or two of ammo a year, and doesn't know a MIL from a MOA. Though these guys seem to be shooting various PRiCk cartridges of late.

I'm going with the 32 Remington. Nobody gave it a chance 😄

I've heard the same sort of thing!

Because of that I suspect the 6.5 Man-Bun creates more BS than any other cartridge--or has since it appeared in 2007....

First Model Newton in 256 Newton. Long gone and mostly forgotten, but the 256 Newton did what the 6.5 Creedmoor does and it did it over 100 years ago.

i "retired" my Winchester m94 (1972) in 30-30 about 30 years ago. she sat there for 25 years, until i shipped it to JES. when i got her back, she is a 35/30-30. i was going to go with 270-280WFN GC, but i already had 200gr RCBS FN GC, so i shot them. i'm glad that i did. i load a 200gr RCBS and 2400/tuft of dacron. since my eyes ain't what they once were, i put on a Williams FP aperture sight.

100 yards/sighting the 35/30-30 in


i could go up to near 35 Remington fps, but 1726fps is great for killing deer. 2 does at 25ish yards and one buck at 53 yards in 4 years. last year i didn't go out because i was recovering of heart stint surgery.

the 35/30-30 is about the oldest wildcat cartridge. back in the day, if Winchester ever did the 35/30-30, then the 35 Remington would not be successful as it once were.

since i have 30-30 cases (Remington, Winchester, Federal, PMC....), i gave them to youngest son to use in Savage m340. i use Starline 30-30 cases to make 35/30-30, 30 and 357 Herrett cases.

I would argue against that--along with the similar (and frequent) claim that the 6.5 CM doesn't do anything the 6.5x55 hasn't been doing since it appeared in 1892.

Here's what the 6.5 Creedmoor DOES do--and I know this because I've done it myself with around half a dozen of 'em, or watched friends do it while we were hunting together: It allows a hunter to buy widely available and affordable factory ammo (one big strike against the .256 Newton right there), that's generally more accurate than any other factory 6.5 cartridge. It will also kill big game from pronghorns to bull elk neatly--but only if the hunter knows the rifle, and puts the bullet in the right place. On a hunt a few years ago one of my companions killed a big 6x6 bull with one 140-grain bullet, the elk going the typical 50 yards or so before keeling over--because the shooter put the bullet in the right spot.

All that said, I no longer own a 6.5 CM--and even sold my dies, and am selling the brass. This is because I own three other 6.5 rifles that mean a lot more to me personally, one a 6.5x55 I put it together with the help of Charlie Sisk, who rebarreled it with a 1-8" twist Lilja (it was originally a J.C. Higgins .270 Winchester, but I shot that barrel out). I then stocked it myself in a piece of semifancy European walnut grown in New Zealand. With the right handloads it's just as accurate as the average off-the-shelf 6.5 Man-Bun--though finding really good 6.5x55 factory ammo has always been something of a trial in the U.S.

Another is an Ultra Light Arms Model 20 in 6.5-284--which belonged to my long-time friend, hunting buddy and fellow writer Tom McIntyre, who passed away suddenly last fall. It will mean a lot when I take his rifle hunting this fall.

The other is a 6.5 PRC that Charlie Sisk did ALL the work on, which I've hunted with more than any other rifle the past few years. So no, I don't "need" a 6.5 Creedmoor, especially with my present push even further into retirement--which is why I sold my last one.

I have nothing against the 6.5 creedmoor and actually appreciate its use and case design.
what I have a hard time with that so many people think it does anything and everything better than anything and everything else.

my not jumping on the bandwagon of the creedmoor may have something to do with the fact I was shooting a 6.5-308 before there was even a 260 custom eight twist barrels long before they were popular.... so with all the stuff I already have chambered slightly different I really gain nothing by switching all over to the creedmoor. now if I shot factory loads that would be a big incentive to switch over. I haven't bought a factory rifle rounded on my , least 20 years probably longer than that..

I'm a likin' the old 8x57 in any '98. Before I read that it was obsolete, underpowered, inaccurate, I used it for years in the Sierras, Sawtooth', Cascades, Olympics, Coast Range, Western Alaska. Then in the late 70's when I learned how obsolete it was by reading magazines, I had it restocked and the chamber reamed to 8mm-06...made a world of difference...it kicked a little more.

I really enjoyed Tom McIntyre's writing in the 1980s Sports Afield . His hunting in Africa series is the only hunting story that has stuck with me.His humility as a hunter is something I have tried to emulate. At my age, I'm not sure how much longer, though. chuckle.

.257 Roberts, .260 Rem, 7mm-08 Rem. Any one of these three will easily handle any tasks on deer-sized and smaller game, with low recoil and minimal powder burnt.


Ruger M77/22 target for overlooked rifle. Every one I've had or been around has been very accurate and the action is hell for strong.

It is an excellent rifle to practice firing from field positions. With a quality scope atop it, it has the heft and feel of a centerfire hunting rifle, but with low round cost, allowing for plenty of practice.

i bought a TC Encore and a 6.5 Creedmoor barrel ( 15" MGM barrel) back in 2009ish. then i bought another 6.5CM 16 1/4" MGM barrel in 2013 and another 23" MGM barrel in 2014. i sold them off in 2018ish, because "everybody" has them. the 6.5CM is an accurate little cartridge. i used 120gr Nosler BT and Hornady A-max and 140gr Nosler BT and Superformance powder would go under 1" at 100 yards. i used it for deer and my own target shooting (120gr Hornady A-max). i am not a competitive shooter.

while using it for deer, 130ish yards is the furthest i shot. i'd shoot the deer at 30-40 yards. but i quickly got bored and "everybody" has 6.5CM, so i sold them.

i know of only one 260 Remington that i've seen. not to take anything away, but in my area, 260 Remington is rare. my youngest son has a '16 Spanish Mauser in a Numrich 6.5x55 Swede that uses 120gr Nosler BT and IMR4350 that goes 3/4 - 1 1/4" at 100 yards.

'16 Spanish Mauser

I hear and read a lot about how accurate the 6.5CM is with just about any of the current off the shelf 6.5CM ammunition. If you have an hour to kill, you might find this interesting.

M71 Winchester and .348 Winchester. .35 caliber anything also is under rated and under fed by the ammo makers.

Of course there haven't been any factory built rifles in 256 Newton since the 1920's or whenever Newton's last venture failed and there hasn't been any factory loaded 256 Newton ammo since manufacturers started to fill military orders for WW2. The First Model Newton rifle and the 256 Newton cartridge never gained any traction, but that is more of a circumstantial thing, a poorly timed business launch that coincided with the outbreak of WW1, than the function of the rifle or the cartridge. Newton had originally contracted with Mauser to build rifles chambered for the Newton line of cartridges and had to design and produce rifles for them after Germany went to war in August 1914.

Performance wise, in comparable rifles the 256 Newton will do anything that the 6.5 Creedmoor will do, even though it is a 100% handloader's cartridge.

I didn't realized that widely available and affordable factory ammo was one of the criteria for offering an opinion on what constitutes an underrated rifle and cartridge.

Even though I'm also headed toward retirement, I still have a lot of 6.5mm bore rifles and they all do the same thing, more or less, if all of the variables are equal.

100% agreement on the featherweights. They were beautiful rifles and shoot great.

I don't believe it'll do it in a short action, and short action fit with long ogive bullets was part of the Creedmoor development. Whether that is important to you is a different question.

tdoyka, my M94 is a '70 model, bought it when I was 13.

I have also equipped it with a Williams FP receiver sight along with a Skinner front post. Mine is not retired, but does see less usage after I got more rifles, mainly a 20" .308 and a Marlin guide gun, but it is still in the rotation and it seems as if deer are drawn to the gun. I know it's coincidental, but I seem to see more deer while carrying that little Winchester.

It loves a load with 3031 and a Hornady 170 FP at around 2125 fps.

When Winchester brought back the Model 70 featherweights in 1981 they were beautiful guns that shot very well. They are truly underrated given the fixation on the CRF models from before and after. I currently have 3 of them - 7x57, 257 Roberts, 243 Win - and I will never part with them. I also have a 6.5 x 55 that I bought in 1990 that shoots very well. It shoots as well as the others but it isn't an XTR model and it shows.

Jeff,

EVERY shooter/hunter I've run into who "criticizes" the 6.5 Creedmoor by saying the .256 or 6.5x55 or whatever old 6.5mm round will do exactly the same things has been a handloader and usually over 60--and often somebody who either has custom rifles built, or builds them. Their sole criteria is muzzle velocity, which is sort of understandable because that's been the primary goal ever since smokeless powders appeared in the 1880s.

I mentioned easily available, affordable and accurate FACTORY 6.5 CM ammo because that is indeed an important factor in the 90% of hunters who don't handload. (Or at least that's the figure I recall from a survey done by the National Shooting Sports Foundation.) The first 6.5 CM I shot was a Ruger Hawkeye with a walnut stock, purchased new from a local store in 2010 purely as a possible article subject, partly because the salesman (the head of the gun department) was NOT a fan of modern hunting rifles--yet said everybody who'd bought one was raving about the accuracy.

So I bought it and some Hornady factory ammo, the only brand the store had (and maybe all that was available back then). The rifle's first 5-shot group at 100 yards measured around .6 inch--and it kept shooting like that, and often even better with handloads. But perhaps the most accurate one I've owned was used Ruger American Predator, and it's first group was with a handload not worked up for the rifle, but one I found generally worked well in the round. It was also five shots, and measured .33 inch.

There are design features of the 6.5 CM, both in the cartridge case itself and standard SAAMI chamber, that make this possible. No, it doesn't break any new velocity ground. If that's the sole criteria for somebody's opinion of a 6.5 cartridge then the 26 Nosler or 6.5-.300 Weatherby Magnum is the deal--and I've owned both. They get the advertised velocity, whether with factory ammo or handloads using published data, but ammo isn't widely available or, for most hunters, all that affordable. These days it generally runs caround $100 for a box of 20--and even new brass is more expensive than 6.5 Creedmoor factory ammo. They also don't shoot as accurately as the average factory 6.5 Creedmoor rifle.

If you want to continue to discuss criteria for what constitutes an underrated (or overrated) factory rifle cartridge I'd be happy to, because that's one of the many aspects of hunting rifles I've been delving into for a few decades. All sorts of factors affect it, but the primary factors that made the 6.5 Man-Bun so popular was its accuracy and affordability. Which is what people who consistently "underrate" it can't grasp--usually because they've never fired one.

John,

I don't believe that I criticized the 6.5 Creedmoor in any way. If I didn't think that a cartridge was worth having, I probably wouldn't own a firearm chambered for that cartridge. I currently have 18 rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor from a variety of manufacturers and in a variety of styles.

Newton intended the 256 to be a medium game sporting/hunting cartridge and the factory ammo that I've seen, mostly blue/yellow box Western brand, was loaded with130 grain bullets, similar to the 129 and 130 grain bullets that are also fairly common medium game hunting bullet weights factory loaded for the 6.5 Creedmoor.

The 256 Newton never achieved enough popularity to incent manufacturers to chamber their rifles for it, but it was a factory loaded cartridge up until cartridge manufacturing capacity was shifted from civilian to military production in support of WW2. The 256 Newton does have a little more case capacity than the 6.5 Creedmoor and its COAL requires a long bolt action, but performance wise it does what the 6.5 Creedmoor does and it was doing it over 100 years ago. Or so it seems to me.

PS - I am over 60, one of my rifles chambered in 256 Newton is a custom rifle, the other is a First Model Newton, but I'm not really chasing speed 'cause my other 50-odd 6.5mm bore rifles are chambered for medium case capacity cartridges, the 260 REM, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x55, 6.5-284, and 6.5 RM.

Jeff

Jeff,

Has the .256 Newton been shooting half-inch 5-shot groups for 100 years, whether with factory ammo or handloads? Has it been doing it with today's high-BC bullets? Can a .256 Newton--whether original or custom--be purchased for $500 now? 6.5 Creedmoors can be.

It has always seemed to to me, partly due to my educational background, is of the requirements of my profession is to be as journalistically objective as possible about stuff. Which is exactly why I try to thoroughly test any rifle/cartridge before writing my articles and books, and research their technical and historical background.

I have a wide taste in firearms, which is why my cartridge rifles date as far back as 1866 (a first-year production Allin conversion .50-70 "trapdoor" Springfield) to very recently introduced rifles and cartridges. I try to find out not only how and why they work--and were designed to work--but why they have failed or succeeded in the marketplace, whether that marketplace is very narrow or wide--or historical, such as the rifles and cartridges many older shooters revere.

I deal every year with readers who're convinced that all cartridge and rifle development ended decades, or even a century ago. You're one of those guys, and apparently always will be. But it didn't end, whether in cartridges, rifles, powder, bullets--and other stuff such as scopes. Whether such development fits your tastes and prejudices, hunting and historical opinions is not my problem--and shouldn't be, because I do try to be journalistically objective.

One of the oddities about all of this is because I write about such a wide array of rifles (as well as shotguns, and occasionally handguns) and find virtues in so many, many readers assume I share their opinions of specific guns, whether classic or modern, and assume were blood brothers. I take that as evidence of my objectivity.

But you have now proven that you not only don't get it, but refuse to even attempt to understand that other hunters/shooters might want something other than your personal choices.

John,

The OP asked our opinions about underrated rifles and cartridges. IMO, the First Model Newton rifle and 256 Newton cartridge were both underrated. The fact that neither the rifle, nor the cartridge, ever gained popularity seems irrelevant to the question posed.

However, in answer to your questions, no, the 256 Newton possess none of the attributes that you've listed. As you well know, when the First Model Newton was produced, circa 1916, few production rifles and cartridges were capable of producing performance levels that we take for granted today, both through improved manufacturing processes and through evolutionary improvements in product technology. However, in terms of on game field performance, the 256 Newton cartridge will launch the same projectiles at the same speeds and produce the same terminal effects as the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge, assuming that all other variables are equal. I should have been more specific to the issue of "on game field performance" in my prior postings on this subject.

The success or failure of a product in the marketplace is a fair way to judge consumer products, but there are always going to be some good products that fail to capture the public's affection for one reason or another. For example, I think that the Colt Light Rifle, 17HM2, and 25 WSSM are good products that failed to succeed through no fault of their own, much like the Newton products that I have cited. Charles Newton was a visionary when it came to cartridge development, but like many product visionaries, his visions were so far ahead of the market that by the time the market had caught up with him, he was no longer in it. Preston Tucker fills a similar niche in the automotive industry.

You are totally misreading me. While I am curious about shooting sports in general and rifles in particular, I am not pushing any agenda and never have. I certainly wouldn't recommend the 256 Newton to anyone who didn't understand the obstacles that go along with it. Once in awhile I'll point out that something is incorrect, like advertising a set of King-Pike rings as being compatible with B&L Balvar adjustable bases, but only so someone who doesn't recognize the difference won't waste their time or money on an incompatible product purchase. I don't think of myself as being stuck in the past, but I'm certainly not cutting edge either. Looking at the 66 different cartridges that I own rifles for, 37 were introduced before I was born and 29 since.

Jeff

PS - Come to think of it, I think that the 7.65x53 is an underrated cartridge. I believe that if the U.S. Military had selected it as the replacement for the 45-70 Springfield, rather than the 30-40 Krag, there would have been no reason to subsequently develop the 30-03, 30-06, or 308.

260 Guy, Yep, you nailed it with the 7.65 Mauser or 7.65x53 or Belgian or Argentine or Peruvian or Turkish....vastly underrated. As a military round, the Turks taught their foes some very painful lessons with the 7.65 in the Vickers MG. Just think, the .308 in 1889...and the US just ignored it.

lets talk a little about the neat old 256 Newton , i purchased a Newton rifle in a 256 cartridge but i sold this old rifle ,brass and dies to a nice young man who wanted it more than i needed it . i was going to build a custom 256 Newton in a Ruger #1 but the expense was way to much. the custom rifle including a new barrel and the Ruger #1 was about $2500.00 , new Redding dies over $100.00 , brass with the head stamp Newton 256 for 100 /$200.00 , total price maybe less than $3,000.00 and here is the biggest problem i am 70 who in my family would want this Newton ? so went with a 35 Whelen rebore by Jess on a Ruger #1 for $300.00 , got 100 brass cases for $100.00 , got new dies for $45.00 total price $1300.00 . the other thing is i own some very accurate 257 Weatherby mags. including 2 customs in Ruger #1`s , so i have performance already. but i still like the 256 Newton and wonder should i or should i not build a 256 Newton in a Ruger #1 ,? its still tempting,Pete53

I think MD and 260 are chewin' on the same sandwich from opposite ends.

I'll put in a bid for the 270WBY, mostly because I just got one and want more ammo/brass produced!

Instead semi-copied the .303 British!

LOL....Who knows?...maybe the 1888 .303 semi copied the 1886 French Lebel. In any event, I don't think even the most ardent flag wavers could argue that US small arms ordnance was EVER cutting edge. I always thought my own wildcat .44-77 Barely Improved would sweep the gun world...instead the damn Creedmoor beat me by just a few months. Fame is a fleeting and fickle bitch.

B29 for the win!

Well, they did initiall plan to chamber the M1 Garand in .276 Pedersen, but that went away because so much .30-06 ammo was already on hand....

I thought it would prove to be VERY popular, due to its rising trajectory! But no....

this is going to butt hurt a few die hard 308 Win. boys ,another is the politics that the military chose the 308 Win. over 300 Savage .

I think it is hilarious that you wrote a satirical article well enough that people were actually seeking components.

You should do a follow up article on the cartridge extolling its virtues.

"25 years of winning matches and slaying animals with the B29"

....after slaying my third cloven hoofed gazork I realized I needed to update the twist rate....

Even Ross Seyfried got sucked in a little--until he read the part about Monica Lewinsky making the reamers, as part of her career-change retraining after that Clinton deal.

But he did ask how in hell I got the photo of the "cartridge stamp" on the rifle's stainless barrel--which as I recall was actually Eileen's NULA .257 Roberts. Told him I placed a strip of "matte" Scotch tape on the barrel--on the opposite side from where Melvin stamped 'em--and wrote it with a black ballpoint pen. But had to do it a couple of times before getting it right enough for the photo.

John
You could have bought some clear address labels and used your printer to create one.

Rick,

I doubt my printer would have done that back then. The article appeared in the February 2000 edition of Handloader.

The possibility of an article about such an imaginary (but of course superior to any previously developed wildcat or factory round) occurred during an around-the-campfire conversation between me, Ron Spomer and Dave Scovill during a pronghorn hunt, where we camped in tipis on the prairie of north-central New Mexico. In fact my printer back then might still have been a dot-matrix, which used the paper with "tractor" holes alongside, which had be removed, and the pages separated from each other.

I know I was then mailing "floppy disks" to editors, because they eventually preferred those to scanning in dot-matrix print-outs. Was also still submitting color slides, in clear plastic holders that held 20, because suitable (and affordable) digital cameras were still a few years in the future.

But even those computers, with either floppy discs or printouts, were still a big improvement over a typewriter using carbon paper between two sheets of paper to make a "copy." Have frightened younger writers with tales about those days--but back then the magazines paid better, making the labor worthwhile.

John

John
In those days I didn’t know diddle about anything digital. I had help!
Pre-smartphone.
Rick

Thinking a T/C Encore in .45-70 would be a very underrated combo.

Its obviously the 351 and 401 Winchester SL cartridges. They were so underrated to the point they needed reintroduced in modern autoloaders and bolt guns to get people to buy them, and buy them they have.

It didn't hurt that economics, ease of manufacturing and actually having tons of available ammo steer the market for them. Its like Henry Ford has been resurrected....

I will go with, savage model 10 in 250 savage. Both rifle and cartridge have been doubted but came through

John, how did you handle the captions for the photos? Were those your words, or the editor's?

Yup, an awesome wildcat !

Didn't see it mentioned unless I missed it, which just adds to the under rated part. 200 yds and under and at woods ranges typically involving out to 150 yds on the far end down to point blank, the 35 Remington.

Especially when hand loaded well above the drab factory levels still safe for the model 14's, 141's, and model 8's still out there in service. I handload hotter in a 760.

Mild recoil, hits hard on the other end, big blood trails if needed, and still slow enough it doesn't tear meat up. 1 bullet such as the 180 Speer FP or the Remington 200 RN will do well on smaller light whitetails on up to hefty black bear. I have plenty of rifles and like them all. The 35 Remington is a really nice cartridge in the woods.

While the concept was sound, we as a nation of expert rifleman, (just ask us, we’ll tell you how expert we are)have come to be proficient at holding over. The idea of holding under is too foreign a concept to grasp and put into practice. 😁

All BS..

For a rifle I guess I'd go with the old JC Higgins bolt action with the commercial FN actions.
Truly one of the quality bargains in the shooting world.

For cartridges I'd say the 6mm Remington and the 280 Remington.
Both were victims of Remington's mishandling and should have been much more popular out of the gate than either one had a chance to be.

For a rifle I will nominate the Ruger American series especially the Go Wild and predator series. Most on here will poo poo them, but they are slam dunk moa shooters. I have several in chambers not listed on the Ruger web site. I have a predator in 6.5 Grendel, which out to 250 yards the equal to the 6.5CM. I will nominate the 6.5 Grendel as the most underrated rifle cartridge.

i use my 1972 Winchester m94 in 35/30-30 (JES reboring) and 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of Dacron going 1726fps. the 200gr cast bullet should be going about as fast as the 35 Remington, but the deer don't mind. i shoot them behind the shoulder, but i'll take the shoulder shot if it comes around. the last deer i shot was a buck (weighed in field dressed at 150lbs) at 53 yards standing broadside. it jogged about 10 - 15 yards after the shot, then stood around for like 15 seconds and then fell down dead. while he was standing around, the blood leaked from both sides, so a second shot was unnecessary. very mild recoil, meat going in and out was a 35ish caliber hole and the rear lungs were trashed.

it is a shame that Winchester did not do 35 caliber way back when they did a 30-30 (30 WCF) and 32 Win Special. i think that Winchester would have really won the "lever action manufactures war". the 35 Remington would have been an afterthought. but Winchester didn't and Marlin came up with the 35 Remington.

i also have a Remington m14 with a Lyman tang sight in 30 Remington that has be taken out for deer season. i'll load a 150gr Speer RN with H322 (wishfully) and that will put a smackdown on deer.

They came close with the 38-55.

The .338 Ruger Compact Magnum in a Ruger Hawkeye is my idea of an underrated combo.

This and the 300RCM seemed like awfully good things to me.
To bad they withered on the vine.

Yes, definitely.

I agree, but would have preferred that the shoulder on the .300 RCM be where the .338 RCM and 6.5 PRC has their shoulder.

The 6.5 and 350 Remington Mags were a couple i have done some work with. They are OK in the 700 when you get past the limitations of the short action. Pretty much light bullets or seat very deep and take away powder space.It is a shame about the wonderful 280 Rem. It can do just about anything a hunter would want. I am really enjoying this thread guys. Thank you.

I kinda believe that most cartridges are under rated by most casual hunters. Witness the legion of guys claiming to use a 30-06 with partition bullets, on deer, and wanting to know which rifle and cartridge will do them better.

If you shoot game with hunting style bullets, you'll gain a lot of perspective...

And I'm on the lightweight end of the perspective spectrum as I usually shoot a deer or two each year. My younger years upped my average of game taken but my circumstances, in those years, determined that most of that game was taken with a .243...

I think everybody oughtta have a rifle. And use it to hunt.
Kill 5 deer with that rifle and then maybe talk about what's better...

I'd guess if most guys used a rifle for 5 deer kills they'd never part with it.

FWIW, The center section of my primary lockup is occupied by a Sako .243, A Winchester 25-06, and an MRC .260. If I needed to hunt for food tomorrow, I'd take any one of these, for just about any game.

You would be wrong for at least one of us.

I had killed right at 30 deer and one elk with a Win 670 in 30-06 and a Weaver V7.

Then I added a model 70 Classic in 264 for light stuff, so I felt absolutely no loss when I sold the '06 and used the $ to purchase a Ruger #1 in 7STW.

I do still have that V7, 2.5-7x32 which was purchased in 1980. Today it resides on a Ruger 10-22.

when i was 14yo, i was given by my grandpap a Winchester m94TE (1972) in 30-30. i forget how many deer i killed, but it way more than 5 deer. i "retired" the 30-30 and then a Remington m700 Mountain Rifle in '06 was next. then Remington m700 A, B, Cdl in '06, Savage m116 adjustable muzzle brake in '06, Savage m110 in 270 Winchester, Remington m7 in 243 and 7-08 and so on. every rifle i shot and killed deer and a black bear just wasn't me.

somewhere in the '06 phase, i and my gunsmith (true friend, RIP) built a FN 98 Mauser in 7x57. i fell in love with it. i can't remember how many deer i killed, but i never had tag soup for 16 or 17 years. it was built for my oldest son and when he turned 16 or 17yo, he had a growth spurt, 5' 2" to 6' 1", so i gave the Mauser to him. he continues to kill deer.

i killed deer with various calibers, until i brought a 23" MGM barrel in 444 Marlin for my TC Encore. i would use 250 to 300gr cast bullets for deer. i finally settled on a 280gr WFN GC with Reloder 7 and then i quickly got bored. then i bought a 1936 Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 and i love that rifle. then about 5 years ago, i sent my Winchester m94 to JES Reboring and he did a 35/30-30. i put on a Williams FP aperture sight because my eyes ain't what they once were. i load up some 200gr RCBS FN GC with 2400/tuft of dacron which goes 1726fps. it's soft on the shoulder and it kills deer. i love that rifle now because of....well, i just luv it and it's me.

Lets make that two of us.

I had a Savage 99R in .300 Savage from 12 to 19 yrs of age. I never killed less that two deer a year with it. I got rid of it when I went in the Marines. When I got out I bought a Savage 99E in .308 Win. I kept it for about ten years during which I killed 10 or so deer and a couple of elk. I sold it and bought a bolt action .30-06. I still use a bolt .30-06 for most big game.

Lotta sadness in this world...

Most underrated cartridge I would say 7-08. My first hunting rifle, given to me at age 12-13 by my parents, was a model Seven with the Schnabel tip wood stock and 18 1/2" barrel in 7-08. I'm 46 now and still find it one of the most useful calibers ever. I have killed plenty of deer & hogs with it. I used Remington 140 gr factory ammo before I started rolling my own. Now I use 120 gr T-TSX over Rel-15.

Chris

my dad (RIP) would be right by your side saying that. in the early '90s i bought two (mine and youngest son) Remington m7 (18.5" barrels)and my dad bought one m7 (18.5" barrel) and the calibers are 7-08. a 139gr Hornady FN and IMR4320 (both are discontinued) would make venison. i'm asked what caliber my daughter/son/wife/any other person should have? i say 7-08 for factory loads and 7x57 for handloaders. i handload all of my cartridges, so i'll say the 7x57 (3 of them). i would say 4, but i gave the custom FN '98 Mauser in 7x57 to my oldest son.

my dad didn't like the wood (too short), so he built a black walnut stock to fit him. he retired the Remington m760 in '06 when he shot a deer with the 7-08. he was a died in the wool '06 fan and 180gr Remington RN factory load goes along with it. he shot alot of deer with that rifle, but after the first time using the 7-08, he was gotten bit by the bug.

Somehow missed this during the flurry of opinions:

Yes, of course it's BS! Apparently you missed the fact that the article was a fictional parody of the often too-glowing BS spouted about many wildcat cartridges.

So did a lot of Handloader readers also apparently didn't have a clue, despite several pretty blatant indications, such as Monica Lewinsky making the reamers....

John

JB

I am disappointed in you. You of all people know that most misses are from shooting over a deer, elk, moose. Why would a round that exacerbates things become popular? B29s just fly too high.

Bruce,

Well, yeah. And apparently far too high for BSA to get the joke!

John

Agreed. I love and use mine whenever I have a chance. Buddy just picked up a Rem 700 350 Rem Mag. Another great , underrated rig. Perfect under 500 yard hammers

My three underrated cartridges:

22 mag. - death wish to game in small package
6.5 Rem, mag. - does anything any 6.5 does and it was doing it 30 plus years ago - just needed a longer barrel at introduction
8X57 mauser - in a modern gun as pleasant of shooting high power rifle one can shoot, with the bullets of today it will handle whatever it is pointed at in north america.

Well said...
Now who can argue with that?

Evidently, like many who comment on this thread, you're a handloader. Though the .22 Magnum is an exception.

Will make these comments:

The .22 Magnum is a great round, and have owned at least one since 1966. But today's wide variety of "other" bullets than the original 40-grain Winchester HP often results in .22 Magnums being ammo-particular,. And if your rifle doesn't "like" every load, then it can be a problem, since there have been many shortages of .22 Magnum ammo.

On the other hand my current .22 Magnum is a "cheap" Ruger American Rifle--which shoots just about any ammo accurately. But the .17 HMR is generally more accurate, and shoots a LOT flatter. It will also do for a bunch of game, due to various loads.

The 6.5 Remington Magnum was/is a fine round, but finding brass is just about impossible. Yes, it can be made from any "standard" belted-magnum brass, but that's a PITA. So why bother, when so many other 6.5 rounds do pretty much the same thing--as you essentially admitted?

Please explain why anybody would buy an 8x57 when they can buy a .30-06 which does the same thing, and factory ammo is widely available? This doesn't mean I don't own an 8x57, and in fact I own two, a German custom rifle AND a Sauer drilling for the rimmed version...

John,

The key word is "underrated". I believe the 8X57 is greatly underrated in the USA. I also think the new crop of Nimrods here also underrate the 30-06.

True about both. But one of the points I've made more than once during this thread is that 90% of hunters aren't handloaders. I don't think the average hunter underrates the .30-06. Instead it's underrated by handloaders, who often tend to prefer the latest/greatest/most "advanced" cartridge.

.30-06 factory ammo is still among the top sellers in the U.S., though probably .308 Winchester ammo probably beats its numbers.

Have also pointed out that the .308 is far more common among European hunters than the 8x57 these days--despite so many Americans still claiming the 8x57 is "the .30-06 of Europe."

I was going to say 7mm-08 or 338Fed. I understand why the Fed is fading but it hammers animals better than what its paper ballistics indicates. The fading of the 7mm-08 baffles me though. It is light recoiling, kills well and is big enough for elk.

The big problem for the 7mm-08 is the .308 Winchester--which is more available in a wide variety of factory loads and rifles, and kills just as well.

I have taken a bunch of big game with both, and witnessed a number of hunting partner doing the same. Have yet to be able to tell any difference.

I believe the 6.5 creedmore took the shine off of the 7-08 and the 338fed is mostly unknown and more than what most hunters need. I don’t think most really understand what the feds advantages can be and if they do, don’t feel they need it.
All four to include the 308, are great and very capable hunting cartridges. I have used them all somewhat but I really have always leaned towards the heavier side and have used the 338 fed the last few years. While it is waiting in the wings, I have been playing with a couple of new to me 308s and a 7x57 this year. Yet to see which ones go to the woods this fall.
Les

I’ve seen a lot of votes if you will, for the 35 Remington. Not one for the cartridge that does it’s job with half the recoil. I’m going with the underrated 350 legend. I think it has potential for a hand loader. And also the 6.5 Grendel.

Maybe the .280 Ross/ WW1 vintage Ross rifle.
if it were chambered in Winchester's model 54 and the the later model 70.
Ir might of displaced the great .270 wcf and perhaps became Jack's pet rifle..289 isn't any more weird than the .277.

2ndly, the newly minted 1969 model 700 in the 25/06.
My Uncle bought it in 1969, free floated and glass bedded it. It still puts them in a tight little cluster.
Tipped over quite a bit of Game, including larger bull Moose and Elk. .
It seemed to make anyone a shooter

I have a Ross .280 model 1910 sport (not military production) that I caught about 25 years ago. Have brass, bullets and dies, but have not shot it. It has to be the nicest handling rifle in the safe.

In your estimation which is the best bullet for elk out of 7mm-08?

I think that for large bodied game using the 7-08 the Nosler 150 ballistic tip would be tough to beat...

Can't think of much I wouldn't hunt with it...

I'd like a 7mm -08 in a Rem model 7..
Gathering more stuff at this point isn't a good idea for me, and I'm not even hunting temporarily. Not to mention the extinction of my desired rifle. So I'm inclined to use what I have. But it isn't because I've underrated possible alternatives.

There are a bunch of bullets that work well at 7mm-08 velocities. The 150 Ballistic Tip that johnw mentions is one, as are the 154 Hornady Spire Point Interlock, but Barnes TSXs, Norma Oryxes and Nosler Partitions and a bunch of other "controlled-expanding" bullets will work fine on elk-sized game from the 7mm-08 (or 7x57).

Don't know why you're not hunting, but I hope things get better for you soon.

There were a couple of years where the only hunting I did was oak pasture squirrels and back timber deer from a ground blind. If you're out there, it's hunting...

Absolutely right. The 308 has taken over. I sometimes wonder why the 30-06 hadn't become more popular post war??

That is one good looking rig , I got two savage 340’s and am like wise impressed with what you can do with a broader selection of bullets
Just like loading 150 gr flat nose in 300 aac , deer slayer .
Thinking out of the box is a good thing
Kenneth

I would suspect shooter err would be the piece of truth to that statement
Behind a country bumpkin from way back , I have seen stupid in color by many a 30-30 owner .
Kenneth

The 8x57 tends to be under rated in North America. American made ammo is very under loaded (170gr @ 2300ish fps). Hornady does make the international line with the 195gr interlock rated for 2500 fps. My rifles shoot them in around 2450 fps. When hand-loaded its every bit as effective as the 308 win/30-06 within reasonable range.

Depending on barrel length/rifle (preferably 24 inches) and loaded to full capability (56,000-60,000 psi) with the right powders, these velocities are obtainable:

150gr 2950-3050 fps
160gr 2900-3000 fps
170gr 2850-2900 fps
180gr 2750-2800 fps
200gr 2600-2700 fps
220gr 2500-2550 fps
250gr 2300 fps

When looking at those velocities and bullet selection you can quickly see its very under rated and capable of so much. In my eyes the perfect all-around cartridge.

I have put this old war horse to work up here in Canada and have never felt under gunned even for the big bears.

In saying that there are also a lot of other great preforming cartridges that seem to be under rated:

257 Roberts
280 Rem
7x57 Mauser
7x64 Brenn
7.65 Argentine
7.7 Jap

Yes, all of those would qualify--in some ways.

But what I pointed out early in this thread is the reason many cartridges are "underrated" is that good factory ammo isn't easily available, or affordable. In the U.S. this particularly applies to three cartridges on your list: The 7x64 Brenneke, 7.65 Argentine, and 7.7x58 Arisaka. Have handloaded for all three, but none of them provide any ballistic advantage over the .270 Winchester or .308 Winchester, and many practical handicaps. So why should somebody choose one of them due their "great performing"?

Unless of course they're a rifle loony, which is common here.

Might also comment that the very first "modern" custom rifle I ever had built, as in one with an after-market stainless barrel, lay-up custom stock, and "blue-printed" bolt action, was a .280 Remington--put together around 1990 by the late Dave Gentry. Used it on a lot of big game for around a decade, including my biggest mule deer and one of my two biggest caribou. Could never tell any difference in its field performance and that of the .270 Winchester...but maybe some .280 fans can....

The easily affordable and available factory ammo and components you point out was why I went with 270win and 30-06 in my later 40's. I like weird stuff like my 348win but I can't bring myself to lose a piece of brass afield. Pre pandemic I picked up cheap 270win for $15-$17 box and the Federal premium trophy copper for $23 box and I loaded up on that price. Availability is the biggest "go" for me but I'm now also set up to roll my own.

theoldpinecricker,

Yep--which is partly why I've managed to fool around with some less mainstream rounds over the decades--including the .348 WCF! Oh, and the .33 WCF as well, along with the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer and far lesser-known 6.5x54 Mauser. Someday am going to go through my loading notes and make a list of the centerfire rifle rounds I've handloaded for that can't be found even in well-stocked gun stores....

That's a fair point, the 7.7 Jap and 7.65 has more at play, no current rifles being produced in those cartridges, so they become obsolete- in saying that if one come's across a cheap sporterized milsurp or that's all they have at hand- they would make do just fine with the performance that come from those cartridges 150gr-2700fps, 180gr 2500-2600fps. Cup and core bullets thrive at those velocities which turn out to be great preforming.

If you come to think of it, most cartridges are under rated due to either marketing failure's ie. (6mm Rem, 338 Federal, 325wsm, 7mm wsm and etc.) or companies under loading for one reason or another ie. (280 rem, 257 roberts, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x55) which eventually leave them with a reputation as if your under gunned and needing more. Reloading or good European ammo (for the metrics) fixes all of that of course.

370 Sako - 9.3x66.

Almost unheard of in the shadow of the 9.3x62,
and the cordite fuelled 375 H&H

when i young, my friend's grandfather was given by his son a Remington m700 BDL in '06. he took it out hunting and got a spike. when he came home, he cleaned the rifle and put it a corner. he said something like, "it kicks and the bullet (180gr Remington RN factory nose) makes too much hamburger." he was Italian and he spoke broken English.


next year, he got his Winchester m1892 in 25-20 Winchester with 86gr factory loads (Remington and Winchester) and he got a 4pt right behind the shoulder. "it goes in and comes out and then have a dead deer " he says. if the deer stood less than 20-25 yards, it was a headshot. over 25 yards, it was a behind the shoulder shot. i think he said that the furthest shot that ever had was about 60-70 yards. 20 - 30 yards was more common.

the guns that he bought were a 22 short in Sears or Montogomery Wards one shot bolt action. a double barrel 12 ga (probably Sears) and a Winchester m1892 in 25-20. he got the 25-20 because a 22 short round failed to penetrate (one time) the cow's skull and he had a heck time to calm the cow down for a second shot. he was a farmer and in them days, a butcher of cows and pigs.

when he died, i was given the chance to buy his 25-20, but me being a smart-aleck didn't buy it. instead the 25-20 was auctioned off. stupid is what comes to mind and i was stupid!!!

I got to know the Sako employee who developed the .370 Sako some when touring the Sako factory and doing a little hunting in 2015. (Have his name in my notes somewhere, but can't think of it right now.) He said the cartridge wasn't really intended to be an improvement over the 9.3x62 or 9.3x64. Instead he just wanted to give hunters something else to talk about!

At the time he'd taken it on one safari, and hunted moose with it in Finland--and of course it worked fine.

I just pulled the little lever action Winchester model 53 in 25-20 out and was thinking about the stories I heard about that rifle from my Father In-law. I inherited the rifle after he passed and I will be getting her bloody again. “Dad” bought the rifle when he was 16 years old and working in a logging camp in Southeast Alaska back in the early to mid 50’s. He bought his first fishing boat “The Fern” at 15 with a handshake between him and the banker man in Sitka and had it totally paid off before the following summer. Dad said he was working on the log rafts when he saw a native Tlingit drag a GIANT black bear out of the woods….biggest black bear dad ever saw according to him. He said that being a kid with more money than most guys twice his age he just HAD to have that rifle. He haggled with the Indian and proudly walked away with the Winchester.

Thanks to the generosity of one of the finest men here I’m well set for brass, dies and cast bullets that are almost too pretty to shoot. I am thinking that I’ll bring her up with me next month and see if we can’t take a Sitka Blacktail with it this fall. She needs to repatriate herself with the Last Frontier considering her life began up there almost 100 years ago and hasn’t been back there for over 50 years.

once heard someone say 222 Remington was used by a lot of folks from a tree stand to hunting whitetail effectively.

Ha, sounds like a real pain in the brass !

Actually he was a lot of fun, as were all of the Sako people. My hunting notes from the trip show his name as Kari Kuparinen, and while he didn't talk as much as some of the other folks, he had a fine sense of humor when he did--and a lot of technical knowledge.

However, one of the more interesting conversations I had during the hunting was with a young Sako employee named Mikka. He was one of the only two people to take an animal during our two days of hunting, one day for moose and another for whitetails. The hunting over there, as it's often done in much of Europe, is by drives--and often with dogs. He was the next stander to my right during the moose hunting, about 300-350 yards away, and he got a big male calf as it ran by his stand. (The other hunter to get something was another Sako employee, a former professional hockey player in some European league, who got a small whitetail buck--his first deer.)

Anyway, the evening Mikka got his moose, everybody was sitting around talking about various things after dinner that evening. He asked me if I'd ever hunted moose before, and I said yes, in several places in North America. He then asked me what hunting methods we used, and I said sometimes calling bulls during the rut, but mostly we just go out and look for them. His eyelids blinked rapidly, and it was obvious he couldn't comprehend that. But have also had the same reaction from more than one guide in Texas, because many (or perhaps most) cannot comprehend sitting in a stand overlooking a corn feeder.

Oh, and incidentally, aside from the dog drives in Finland, they also bait deer. The evening of our whitetail day I sat near a pile of carrots larger than a Volswagen Bug. Never saw anything except a few birds....

MD Thanks for your elaboration. Very interesting to hear you describe euro hunting methods.

Not trying to say that the inventor was a pain, just that his improvement created a situation with the x66 brass and minor dimensional changes. Probably good enough quality if you could secure a supply.

I had a notion once that a CZ 550 in the mundane x62 would be ideal for converting to this wonder cartridge.
Fortunately I didn’t get myself wedged in that rabbit hole, Ha .

Yeah, I have never considered converting my 9.3x62 either! Partly because it already works so well.

You sir are way too practical,

;-)

Wasn't when younger and less experienced!

Though just spent more than I'd planned to spend ever again on a rifle, chambered in a cartridge that I already had a LOT of experience with--for mostly emotional reasons. But why not? We only go around once....

Good stories, guys. Reminded me of an old farmer I used to spend time with who slaughtered hogs and cows with an old .22 single shot with the barrel and action held to the stock with duct tape and no sights. I remember watching the operation and every one's admiration of his skill in that he only ever needed one shot which is particularly important if you've got a few hogs to do because if you wound the first one the others won't hold still and you've got mayhem on your hands. He told me hitting the brain of a cow was easy but hitting the brain of a hog was like "hitting a tennis ball baked into the center of a wedding cake." If I had seen that .22 under other circumstances I would have underrated it! We moose hunted together after that and he brought his .303 British - which did have sights.

What'd you get MD?

I would be another vote for the .284win, and the .338fed. Also the 338/06 and the 9.3x57

A pre-'64 Winchester .375 H&H--which also might mean going back to Africa again....

Or... It could mean you're ready for assisted living?

Sweet. And, you're right - why not? Just don't let it take too much time away from that book we all hope you're busy writing!

1eyedmule,

Have been thinking about that book, especially after starting to reread Jack O'Connor's The Last Book a couple days ago....

John

Excellent!

I've read you mentioning "The Last Book" a couple of times regarding a future project. I haven't read it but, it's on my list. From your description, a book like that written by you at this point in your career (I don't want to say, with nothing to lose but, maybe the freedom to write whatever you want) would be a classic.

Seems like guys who grow up around annual deer camps always wonder if they've got enough rifle

Ranch or farm kids who had a .222 or 22-250 are pretty sure they can handle anything with it...

I'm envious. One of my first rifles was a Win 70 with a 3-digit serial number in .375, had a 25" barrel and was set up with a receiver sight, not a scope. I still have the itch but probably won't scratch it again. In the mean time, I have a set of dies, brass, and a decent pile of bullets tempting me.

The Winchester Model 70 push feed

And the 6.5 Caliber.

OP asked for caliber not cartridge.

A .32-20 comes to mind. It killed an awful lot of deer (and other targets of opportunity) before someone decided them and .30 carbines wouldn't work. Having owned both, I do think the .357 magnum that kind of replaced them does a bit better.

one day, i'll take my grandfather's 30 Carbine out deer hunting. it is something my dad (RIP) wanted to do. this year, i have my dad's TC Contender, but i'll switch out the 7-30 Waters (14" muzzle brake) and put my 10" barrel in 30 Herrett. i use a 130gr Speer HP and Reloder 7 and it should be going 1900+/-fps. i have to chronograph it.

A very underrated rifle/cartridge combination is the (original) Ruger .44 Magnum carbine. Yes, it requires a certain level of maintenance. No, it doesn’t play well with cast bullets (which is all the real experts ever use, right?) But for what Bill Ruger intended, which is hunting deer in the woods (or gorillas in the jungle) there is absolutely nothing better. It carries better and handles faster than any lever gun ever made (and I say that as one of the 99 Savage’s biggest fans. A 240 grain XTP or similar at 18” barrel speeds is a solid 150 yard deer killer. Mine will come to shoulder and deliver an aimed shot faster than my favorite bird gun.

Yes! I love this rifle. It was my grandpas but I love it. I used my ruger 77/44 more now just to make sure I don’t wear it out but I love my 44 carbine.

All of them.
There are no bad cartridges, just bad hunters, which is why some get used beyond their ranging abilities.

The .25-20, the only one I’ve ever owned was a Marlin CL. Just a perfect small game rifle. The old timers that actually hunted for food knew what they were talking about.

Sold it to a much older friend that sadly passed away before he could sell it back to me.

Yes sir, the LOP on that wood model 7 stock is a bit short. I need to get a McMillan for mine one day.

I remember when I would get asked by kids at school what gun/cartridge I hunted with, and I'd say 7-08, the universal response back then was, "what's that?", LOL!

I've been using the .308 for going on 60 years. Not that I haven't been distracted along the way.......But it has come down to:

Rifle............. Ruger M77/Hawkeye All Weather.

Chambering...308 Winchester.

Pretty much do anything go anywhere.

My choices:

338-06
9.3x66 (370 Sako Mag.)

If what someone stated earlier as criteria for underrated is, the lack of factory ammo, these two excellent cartridges definitely qualify.

I own both rounds in great rifles: a Dakota & a Parkwest in 338-06, and an AHR CZ550 in 9.3x66.

I just came back from a Zambia safari a week ago in the Bangweulu Swamp, where I used the 9.3x66 to take Side Stripped Jackel, Tsessebe, Black Lechwe, & a 46” Buffalo. The Buffalo, and all the others, were taken with a 286 gr. NP. It’s a great caliber/cartridge.

Pics of the 46” Buffalo were posted on AR by my PH Andrew Baldry, under the first subtopic African Big Game Hunting and the title ‘Dream Safari’ if anyone is interested.

tag

I am sure the 9.3x66 is a great round--but have posted elsewhere that I met the guy who developed it during a tour of the Sako factory in 2015, Kari Kuparinen. He didn't think it added to the 9.3x62's capability, especially when the 9.3x62 is loaded to "modern" pressures. Instead he thought it would give the people we often call "rifle loonies" something new to fool with. Which is a similar marketing scheme often used in the U.S.A., believe it or not. (Oh, and he'd used it in Africa just a few months before.)

One of the interesting things I've found while using the 9.3x62 in Africa is how many PHs highly respect it's capabilities--and often give the go-ahead to use it on buffalo even when it's supposedly not legal in that particular jurisdiction. But concur that the 286 Nosler Partition does work great on big game well over 1000 pounds....

Funny how much is underrated now that was all the rage when it started.

So very true. More so when you and the PH already have some history (of the good kind).

I mentioned I was bringing the 9.3x62 on my most recent buffalo hunt. All he asked was 'which bullet?'. I told him I was bringing 300 grain A-Frame handloads and his response was 'don't bother bringing solids. Won't need them'.

Yep! Have found more PHs have started telling buffalo hunters to not bother with solids in the last few years, because today's "softs" are so good.

7 x 57 is the cartridge. Not sure about the rifle I would choose.

Don't know how the 7x57 is "underrated." Please explain--though I suspect you actually mean "not chambered" by many of today's rifle manufacturers.

i use a Husqvarna m46 in 9.3x57 that uses a 275gr WFN GC with IMR4895 that goes 1800-1900fps (i didn't chronograph it, yet). it is a nice load for deer or black bear. i had a bag or two of 286gr Prvi RN. i think they were going 2100 or 2200fps+/- and they got 3/4 - 1 1/2" group at 100 yards (5 shots/bench). i think that Europeans don't want the Americans to have a 9.3mm cartridge.

9.3x57 and 280gr RN GC


275gr WFN GC

I'm beginning to think they're all overrated.....

Yeah, especially when the hunter doesn't put the bullet in the right place.

If I were suggesting one it would be the .243 Winchester. At one point early in my big game hunting had killed more animals the the .243 than any other round, partly because I'd developed a bad flinch from using a Savage 99 .308 with an aluminum buttplate early on. Solved the flinch by acquiring a Remington 700 .243, with which I took around 20 animals without a "failure" using cup-and-core bullets, mostly the 105-grain Speer Hot-Cor. Have also seen the .243 used by a bunch of other folks, including Eileen, who killed her biggest whitetail buck with one 100-grain Nosler Partition, which she put through both shoulders and the spine, because it was getting late and she didn't want the buck going anywhere.

It was also the favorite leopard cartridge of well-known African PH John Kingsley-Heath, who used it personally on leopards in several countries, and advised it for clients--because it recoiled so little they could put the bullet in the right place. Altogether he and his clients killed 200+ leopards with the "little" .243. But when I have mentioned this on the Campfire more than one person has said that's crazy, because a magnum is obviously needed for dangerous game.

John,
I am familiar with JKH’s 243. It was a p64 Fwt and was stocked by Earl Milliron of Portland OR. That work was “arranged” by Mr O’Connor. I saw the rifle just as it was about to leave Milliron’s. It killed many many leopards!
Rick

Rick,

Have only seen photos of it, but it looked like a very nice rifle.

Might also mention another .243 performance example. A few years ago my fellow gun-writer Richard Mann's wife Drema decided she wanted to start hunting, so he got her a .243 and she started practicing. But instead of her first hunt taking place in their native West Virginia for whitetails, they went to South Africa, where she took an impala, gemsbok and blue wildebeest, all good trophies and all with one shot. Her handload used the 85-grain Nosler Partition.

John

243 kills all out of proportion to its size, I think. My own is a p64 std weight, which is just one incredible rifle. Accurate to a fault with blue box Federal 100's. Several of my friends have had their kids use it to take their first deer. I have alot of confidence in that rifle and in that chambering.

No truer words ever spoken!

My vote is for the 250-3000, aka 250 Savage. I built one up for my sons on a Win 70 Compact with a Douglas factory duplicate contour. My sons shot about ten deer with that rifle, all one-shot kills, distance under 100 yards. Ammo was basic Rem green box 100 gr PSP. The little cartridge kills so well and is easy to shoot. As others have said, most under rated rifle for me would be the push-feed 70s, I've seen some back in time that I wish I had to foresight to buy.

This is the "underrated" rifle and caliber thread, not "unheard of".....

There are rare occasions when the intersection of Murphy's Law and particularly fat animals, black bear being the worst, and blacktail just rolling with acorn fat...that fat and hair will just seal up...nothing to track, and that in my opinion is where the larger holes can pay off. Let's face it, offhand shooting is not precision, we don't evaluate a rifle or ammo offhand, right? Animals are not always posing stationary, they do move, sometimes briskly. I am not trashing small hole cartridges or a .243...but larger holes can mitigate Murphy's law.
My years shooting NRA Sporting Rifle competition showed me that damn few men can clean a 200 yd offhand target, and NO young shooter can keep them in the aiming black. Not opinion, fact.

I seem to remember an article long ago whereupon Joe Coogan bumped off a leopard with a 243 and thought it was just about right for the job.

A bolt action 223 twisted and mag-boxed to utilize more of the currently available 70gn+ projectiles.

I say it's under-rated because nobody makes one that does so off the shelf without a fair amount of fiddling.

Don't forget about the 6mm Remington, awesome caliber, had one in a M77 and it got a lot of use.

I agree with the 260 and 708, I have both, the 260 in a ruger m77 compact and the 708 in a ss/syn model 7. Neither caliber gets enough love.

300 RCM and 338 RCM. If you own both you are equipped to shoot any animal in North America and not be concerned about being under gunned. The beauty of both of these calibers is the rifles Ruger build to shoot them. Ruger started with a stock with a slightly shorter LOP, went with a 20 inch barrel, and added factory iron sights.

I'd question 6.5mm as the most underrated caliber these days, Bob. Seems to be getting all the credit it deserves and then some. Maybe 20-30 years ago...

Pretty good point on the M70 push feed though!

See ya soon,
Rex

I've said it elsewhere. 2 cartridges that come mighty close to their win mag predecessors and in rugged carbines with 20" pipes. A lot to like.

I once killed an Ontario Black Bear with a 300 win Mag using a 180 grain Nosler Partition, back in camp I asked the outfitter about his favorite black bear rifle.
He said a 243 Winchester was his all time favorite. He showed me a Browning Lever in 243 that had been used by many clients to kill bears. He had also used it to
Kill bears wounded by poor shot placment.He had a bigger rifle that he used for moose,but the 243 was his go to bear rifle.

Bingo. I am just as enamored by the 338 rcm today, as I was back when it was introduced. Possibly THE BEST Alaskan carbine ever made. Even left handed shooters got one. A mountain rifle in bear country, and so much more.

From 300-500 yds shots on winter caribou, to ANCHORING tough goats in proximity of sheer vertical cliffs to rut-raged 60+ inch antlered bull moose, the 338 rcm is an everything gun. Im.surprised how many of RCM's I've encountered, in the hands of other Alaskan hunters.

A simple mag follower flip, and they hold 4 cartridges down, something the wsms never could do. The rcm cartridges feed so nicely, slow or fast

The factory 225 grain interbond ammo out penetrated 30 cal 220 nosler partitions(at 2480 fps) in spruce boards. Where the 338 RCM is just getting warmed up, the 30-06 ends. Then my 275 grain swift a-frame handloads are mighty close in performance to my 300 grain 9.3x62 handloads, all in a rifle that is lighter than the 30-30 rifle I carried as a kid.

225 grain stuff from a 338 rcm carbine is right at the threshold of lightweight and manageable recoil for meaningful shooting sessions, to hone your skills for those treeless alaska, winter caribou hunts.

I named mine, 338 Elmer. The squat little thing most closely resembles him. All purpose frontiersman, in a compact package.

Few years ago, got caught in a bad wind storm. Had every guy line in place to anchor the tent. During that storm, a heard of a dozen caribou passed by, all being tended by a gigantic bull. The shot was about 400 yards. My 41-9.3x62 wildcat/scout rifle was rendered useless in those winds. IF I had my 338 rcm, I would've easily taken that shot. I have never seen a larger bull caribou since.

Settled for a pint-sized caribou at 20 yds.

What breed is that dog?

John,
More backstory on that 243. Milliron told me that JOC had been on a very pleasant trip with JKH and wanted to present something special as a thank you. He asked what his favorite rifle was. JOC was quite surprised that JKH pointed to his 243 leopard rifle. Anyhow arrangements were made to have Milliron make the new stock. I don’t believe anything was done to the metal.
Nice gift.
Rick

I think the most underated rifle is gonna depend on what you like. I loved my old 660 Rem, was a 308 my son some how got? I think the newer Mossberg patriot with wood stock and blued metal is underated but I have two and I really like them, not that they are perfect though!

The most underated cartridge would depend on what your hunting. I think for being underated there's two cartridges that jump out at me for deer rifle's. The 250-3000 has to be one but pretty much extinct these days. The other for bigger than deer for me is a tie between the 6.5x55 and the 7x57.

Alaskan malamute named nina. Just an overly thick coat in a rare red color. Good boat dog, been on lotta moose/caribou kills. Would attack other dogs that came near the meat. Never bothered the game bags. Quiet, no barking.

One that always scratched an itch for me is the 375 WIN in a marlin lever action. 220gr at about the same speed as a 30/30 170 and quite a bit larger diameter. But I doubt any deer/elk/hog/ would ever know the difference.

Kudos Mule Deer for even mentioning the word "flinch" and that even you have been affected. I've helped a lot of guys sight in for our deer season and it is always an exercise in diplomacy to hold my tongue when they are all over the target. I read about all these big howling magnums capable of 1,000 yard shooting and wonder how many guys can actually place a shot accurately and not anticipate that amount of noise and recoil?

Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore informed me that 375win is a better performer than his 30-30 and 35Rem loads. His load is 375win and 38/55 compatible. I doubt hogs and dogs or deer make a difference but larger bears, elk, moose, maybe bison would be on the menu.

I have found that increased "killing power" tends to start above .35 caliber. Haven't been impressed with the .35 Remington, though haven't used it as much as some other "deer" cartridges. Am not surprised by Tim's assessment, as have generally found .375 caliber (and 9.3mm) rounds tend to drop game quicker.

I'll add my post '64 Model 70 to the other votes. Very nice trigger. Shoots whatever factory ammo I throw at it under an inch.

I’ll have to look up BB loads and see what bullets they are using and see if I can buy some. Sadly my old 375 hasn’t been hunted in a few years. I’ve got a few boxes of 220hornadys left and maybe 100-200 WW 250’s but I rarely shoot the rifle anymore due to lack of available bullets. I have a box or two if 200gr sierras but to me the 375 just cries for 220+.

I haven’t shot many deer with the 375win but never could tell much difference between it and the 35rem. Just a hole in and a hole out with a good but short blood trail for both. I read an old article by John Wooters on the 375win when it first came out and always wanted one. I think he shot a few animals with a BB94 down in Tx. Seems to me like it was in Guns and Ammo but not sure this many years later. To be honest I’ve had more deer drop in their tracks with a 30/30 than either the 35 or 375 (admittedly a very small sampling). But I still think the 375 is cooler… but that’s just my opinion.

i agree with you on the 30-30 and the '06 (180gr Remington RN factory loads). i use a 35/30-30 with 200gr RCBS FNGC and 2400/tuft of dacron going roughly 1700fps and 444 Marlin with 300gr FNGC with 2400/tuft of dacon going roughly 1600fps. they kill deer after a short blood trail. the 9.3x57 with 275gr WFN GC with IMR4895 going roughly 1850fps will drop a deer or two or three...

oh, i forgot....a 30-40 Krag with 165gr Ranch Dog and H4198 going roughly 1930fps will drop deer in their tracks too. i have killed about 10 or so deer that go DRT (shoulder and behind the shoulder shot).

It's almost inconceivable that the wonderful .338 RCM isn't more popular. Interesting comparison with the .338 RCM and .30-06. I did a similar comparison with the .308. With the 20" .338 RCM I am running 225's (SD of .281) at 2730 fps with Reloder 17. With a 3" box and long throat I'm running the 180's (SD of .271) in the .308 at 2700 fps in a 22" barrel using Varget. The .338 RCM is 8lb including scope which is perfect for me for that level of recoil, the .308 is 7 1/4 lbs including scope which is also perfect for me for that reduced level of recoil with the 180's. The only thing with the .338 RCM is I'm a bit reluctant to take it where the temperature may get around 90 (such as Africa) because of the use of Reloder 17.

375 win, was what I started my son with many years ago. Jesse rebored my childhood 30-30 to 375 win. Anything bear/moose/caribou, it kills very well if shots be under 200 yds.
255 grain barnes O's expanded nicely, even at 170 yards:

Can't remember, has anyone put a vote in for the 444?
Always casually wanted one.

i still have mixed thoughts on speed verses big slower bullets , my 257 Weatherby mag with a good 100 gr. bullet like a Nosler Partition that shoots very fast " 3800 FPS" and accurate really hammers mule deer bucks, whitetail bucks , antelope , and bigger caribou bulls out to 400-500 yards this size animals never seem to make it very far if not knocked down right there for good or DRT. yes i have seen some big bullets do a good job too but i have seen some wounded animals to from some shooters too using bigger bullets. i just had Jess do a 35 Whelen for me i plan to use it on some hunts if its closer ranges , i did shoot a very nice Whitetail buck with a 45 caliber muzzle loader at 40 yards and that buck went right down too. i guess i am still not decided completely but i like the range i get with my 257 Weatherby mag. better , but if a big bear was after me then i for sure would want a bigger bullet cartridge to use. yes when i go to Africa next may i plan on just taking a plain jane 30-06 but those are for some other different reasons then.

I have the same dilemma. I'm never quite convinced that my 45-70 is doing anything that my 30-06 can't do just as well. And I've shot game up to Moose with both and I'm still not convinced

By far the 458 Win Mag. Always schit on by several writers and hunters in Africa, however they never cite any actual failures regarding the cartridge itself in stopping DG. Most who fugg up using a 458 Win Mag on DG are the reason for the fugg up because they can’t shoot it accurately. Most just pontificate about case capacity and some lots of schit ammo 60 years ago. The late Finn Aagaard was once quoted as saying he’s used the 458 Win Mag on DG as well as several other .458s, 470 Nitro and 500 Nitro and has never detected any difference in their abilities to kill or stop DG any better than the 458 Win Mag. With today’s powders and bullet technology it is now a better stopper then before, however it still gets unfairly bashed and probably always will.

i have a TC Encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 444 Marlin. it has killed a dozen or so deer. i used 265gr Hornady FN, 275gr Ranch Dog, 280gr LFN GC, 280gr WFN GC and 300gr FN GC.

I've loved the ones I've had and used
My first one was a 79 or 80 vintage or
something like that, and I foolishly traded it
off for some something I was hot for at the
time and had the re-re's ever since.
I have others, but I still would like to have
that one back. I have one of the later short
ones with the holes in the barrel to try next
time I get to go. It does really good on paper,
but it only counts if you filled freezer bags
with it.

It has been brought up before in this thread, people not seeing what their 45-70 does any better than (name your cartridge).

I've never really seen the need for a 444 since Marlin made the 45-70 in essentially the same rifle; after that its pretty much a bullet thing.

I suppose a 30/06 kills as well or in some cases more than a 45/70, but the 45/70 is usually operating at much less pressure and the bullets may or may not be expanding at its impact speeds.

I would suggest loading both with like bullets (flatnose solids) for a true likeness of the two and I would even allow the 30/06 shooter its best operating pressure to acertain any real world superiority for the Springfield....

A friend of mine at camp had been using his "primitive weapons season" 45-70 throughout the regular season. Then he got a 7mm-08. Now the day primitive is over he switches to his 7mm-08. For him, deer simply fall over faster when their chest cavity takes in a 139 grain Hornady.

I have a Savage Mk II as well. They are good shooters for not a lot of money.

kwg

That has not been my experience over several African safaris from 1993 onward. Several of the PHs I've hunted with used the .458 as their backup, some with experience as far back as the "bad factory ammo" days--which they fixed by handloading. Those PHs uses a variety of rounds for dangerous-game backup, from the .375 H&H to .500 Nitro Express, but the .458 more often than any other.

Might also nominate the Remington 700 as the most underrated rifle. It recently got bad-mouthed for bolt handles breaking off, by somebody who'd never actually seen that happen--but read about it on the Internet. I mentioned that I've fired at least 20,000 rounds from various 700s, according to my handloading/hunting notes, and seen another 80,000 or so fired by other people. Have yet to see a bolt handle come off, or an extractor break.

Though must admit that one of those rifles is actually a Remington 722, my grandmother's .257 Roberts, made in 1953. Inherited it after it roamed around the family for a while--six members of which used it on big game and various varmints. Since I got it Eileen and I have put over 1000 rounds through it, but don't know how much the others shot it. It still shoots very well, and I killed a pronghorn with it at 350 yards not too long ago.

But have used various 700s much harder, including a heavy-barreled .223 that's the most accurate mass-produced factory rifle I've ever owned--and my second 700, a .270 Winchester ADL that after epoxy-bedding would group three shots into 1-1/4", at 300 yards.

Oh, and never had any trouble with the original Walker trigger either. There are real reason there have been over 5 million 700s produced....

Hard to argue with the 700, & I'll go a little further & say specifically the KS series from around '85-2000'ish.

Every single one in several calibers I've either seen or owned has been an absolute hammer, accuracy wise.

With stocks just made for my taste with the best tuned factory (CS) triggers I've uver used in a hunting rifle.

Also the early Ti series, IMO.

Also gotta call out for the early (pre safety) Marlin 1895's.

As for cartridges, definitely the 7-08, which runs right with the new darling 6.5 Creed, with good BC bullets.

Also, the 45-70 in handloads with modern bullets from 300p-400 gr with modern powders in modern rifles like the Marlin 1895 & Ruger #1, within it's range limitations. An absolute hammer on game.

MM

I had the handle come off of a mid 70's .221 Fireball pistol. Does that count ?? As I recall that is a 600 action and not a 700. I did send the bolt back to Remington and it appears they soldered it back on or replaced it.

kwg

On my most recent buffalo hunt the PH carried a lovely M70 .458 WM. A lot of miles on it, but well cared for. He hand loaded Barnes solids for it.

1980s Winchester 70 XTR featherweight Winlite in 270, 280, 30-06 etc. I have not owned one that was not accurate. They have excellent early McMillan stocks in Winchester Featherweight pattern. They have the older/better Winchestet trigger. They are lightweight and well balanced. Most people don't even know what they are aside from a Winchester 70 with a synthetic stock.

All this 243 talk has reminded me that in Australia it was the 243 that showed me how lousy my 338 was as a culling rifle. Like the 223, the 243 seems to have two large camps. Those who swear they will never use it and it will be the worst decision of anyone’s life if they do decide to use it on big game, and those that happily use it on big game all the time.

Marlin XS7 (short action) and XL7 (long action). I had the XL7 in 25-06. It was accurate, had a comfortable, well-shaped synthetic stock, and it was cheap. It never should have been discontinued.

The 25-06 is dying off, as are all of the quarterbores, but it could do anything up to and including elk with good bullets.

Any of the 358’s. Especially the 358 Norma.

Also a blanket on anything Remington introduces with the exception of the 7mm Rem Mag. That was about the only thing that they successfully promoted. Not sure how and why but Remington has a laundry list of great cartridges that they absolutely screwed up. Just look at the 280 Remington or 7mm-06 or 7mm express. You could literally pick from the ones they screwed up and have a complete three gun battery for everything. 6mm, 280 and 416 mag. Done. I’d throw in a 350 Rem mag because it’s a great neglected one for short tight cover.

I will nominate the .450 Marlin.
My .450 sends a good heavy " ball' with some authority....and when chambered in rifle like the Browning BLR a guy now has the flexability of a box/ clip type magazine.
None of the 45/70's bullet limitations either and now we can seat " pointy bullets" with no crimping( for me)
The brass stands up, it is a superior cartridge case, imo.
I just don't have the drift and drop of the Ole Gov't round at 800 yards and beyond , either .
You just have to have " faith".

I nominate the cartridge that you shoot and hunt with most. Your go to rifle. The one you have absolute confidence in and just know like the back of your hand. To me that is the one.

I wish they would have put a normal sized belt on it so a guy could make his own brass out of other standard belted mag cases in a pinch.

Agreed. A model 700 is my favourite rifle action. It is consistently special when it comes to accuracy and the walker trigger is fully adjustable, which is very uncommon.

Frank Barnes did in 1962 with the 458x2 American. It is a dandy using any belted magnum brass as a donor. Works great in bolt guns and tube feed lever guns, including the Winchester 94 Big Bores.

8mm Mauser

Yup, but managed to get lots of brass, some new, some older. Enough for me, luckily

NATO

20 years ago I was big into the 450 Marlin. Now I use that Government round instead. Same gun and same ballistics if I choose

The 30/06 is good in every category,
It delivers better performance than the .308 wcf evertime, in everthing.
The short action lunacy, means so little to me, unless it is a straightwall.
C'mon , it's a 30 + 6, the perfect catridge blend of all time, and owning and using one is an act of real Patrotism.
There, I think I spread it on nicely, folks

if you want to go old skool, then the 1898 Springfield Armory in 30-40 Krag, a true American Hero.

short action will only cycle the cartridge about .002 seconds faster than a long action. i used to five or six different rifles in '06. now i own two, Arisaka Type 99 and my dad's (RIP) Rem m760 in '06. i had a Rem m760 in 308 Win that i killed deer and a black bear (396lbs), but i sold that one too.

Yep. I’ve kicked the idea of a 458X2” around a few times. It would be a dandy in a short 18”-20” barreled slippery smooth bolt gun.

+1

Agreed on the 7-08. It’s a great cartridge and I loved the one I had. It was a Remington 700 CDL with a 24” barrel. It would shoot bug holes for groups. Somewhere someone from this forum has it. They were looking for a good gun for their kid and I reached out to them and gave them a fair deal on it. That was a few years back now but I hope it’s serving them well.

Dunno why the 7mm-08 always comes up in these "underrated" threads. Maybe because it isn't as popular as the .270 or .308 Winchesters? Have seen a LOT of big game killed with all three, including plenty by me, and can't tell any difference in how they kill or recoil. But whatever....

But the only hunters I know who underrate the .17 HMR are those who've never shot one...which is much like those who "underrate" a centerfire round that became very popular in the past dozen years....

8mm rem mag.