Hodgdon markets H4895, IMR4895, and Varget. These all seem to me to fit in the same niche of usefulness

Seems like in an era when inventories are limited that it might be better for most if they concentrated production to one of these.
What am I missing here?

Additional topic; Can any of the other 4895 powders be used for reduced loads, like H4895 is known for?

Even though close in burn rates, powder is made in different places all over the world. So they don’t compete with each other until it ends up on your bench.

Hodgdon just buys and markets powder, they don’t make any of it. The more variety they can offer folks just gives them more chances to sell something!

Yes words like temperature stable, consistent metering, carbon erasers, blah blah blah try to distract you from the price tag.

Accurate 2495 is supposed to be a 4895 analog. I’ve been using it in .308 lately and am going to try it in some others as well where I have used Varget for years.

Uh, I dunno, maybe the free market? Which powder manufacturer gets to give up their product to bring your notion to fruition? Do they draw straws?

Carbon erasers?

The Hodgdon website had specific information on that: https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads-2.pdf

Copper my apologies.

Wtf another minimalist. All powders are useful some more than others. If you can get a deal.on a powder for a really good price that works well it justifies the expense..mn

Wtf another minimalist. All powders are useful some more than others. If you can get a deal.on a powder for a really good price that works well it justifies the expense..mn

Well let’s talk about redundant cartridges and when we’re done with that redundant rifles.
We certainly don’t need so many rifle manufacturers - they are so redundant.

Oh my I forgot to complain about the redundant primers, that is really irritating.

Does Hodgdon not own IMR? And IIRC some other powder makers as well.

Powder sources have changed, at times. Hodgdon has, for many years, sold Hodgdon powder made to their specs, whether made in the U.S., Scotland, or Australia. If that's an over simplification, forgive me.

Is there an advantage to having a half dozen powders that perform so closely?

That's basically correct.

Somebody mentioned earlier Hodgdon has never manufactured any powder--which isn't quite true, since they own (and developed) the plant that makes Pyrodex.
But they started by selling WWII surplus powders--and when those ran out contracted with various manufacturers to make similar powders.

They've bought other "brands" in the past several years, including IMR and Ramshot. Even though there's some overlap in powder performance in the various brands, it has been a good idea to be "diversified," since the plants are located in places from Australia to Belgium to Canada to Florida. This allows Hodgdon more flexibility in obtaining powders, including some which overlap in performance--important these days when so much powder production is going to military orders.

Sorry, that was mean.

I do know a bit about marketing and procurement though.

If you have a large group of customers that love IMR 4350 and another group that loves H4350, you don’t shut one down and hope the customers buy the other.

If there’s several suppliers one who makes IMR 4350 and another who makes H4350 and both suppliers are producing all they can, you don’t shut one down and hope the other supplier will double production, especially if there’s other suppliers that want a piece of the pie.

Then there’s IMR4451 which is close to the others. If you relied on IMR4451 to supply your customers and you’ve abandoned H4350 and IMR4350 right now you’d be SOL.

And if their product is better for one purpose and the other is better for another that is yet another reason to have two suppliers.

Both of my .243s do very well with several bullet weights and styles combined with Varget.

My 25-06 Classic Featherweight cannot duplicate either the accuracy or velocity I get from the 75 Vmax and R15 with any other powder yet tried...

I suspect that you missed the point that Hodgdon owns and controls the manufacturers who make many of these powders.

To say that Hodgdon doesn't make any powder is not true any longer.

I like as many options as possible, I'll cite my latest 6.5 Creed as an example, 105 BlitzKing with Varget is dismal, same bullet on top of H4895 and I can cover 3 shots with the rim of the case. Options are good.

I don't mind redundant powders.

It's the often the unavailable and overpriced powders (even the redundant ones) that are concerning to me.

BTW, Varget is a 4064 type, not 4895 if looking at the IMR scale.

IMR4064 is still one of the best for multiple applications. It was THE best in my 7-08.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

The powders truly redundant are the same ones under different names. Powders very close in burn rate might have a niche that they fill with certain rounds due to volume and caliber.

General Dynamics owns the powder plant in Canada. That’s a stock to own if you want to fund expensive powder purchases.

Yes, and it comes back into Canada from the States with additional costs and exchange rates. I once lived not too far from that plant in Valleyfield, Que., but we couldn't buy directly from the plant. It was transported across the border to Plattsburg, NY, where it was packaged and sent to distributers around the world, including Canada. Made in Canada but we had to buy it as a foreign product. Handloading costs for Canadians is at least 1/3rd more than for US citizens.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Canada Ammo bought direct from that plant in bulk, repackaged it and sold it without that powder ever leaving Canada. They were selling it at 25-30$ per pound at the time, making a nice profit whereas the US packaged/marketed canister grade powder was double the cost to the consumer.
It showed that the price of a pound of powder 5 years ago was mostly distributor markup. I expect it is no different today.

As a kid, we used to go up to Valleyfield for the boat races every summer. (Better leave it at that before I get a ticket from the thread relevance police.)

I realize there's an enormous "economy of scale", but, I'm surprised one can buy a 1# canister of powder in the US for $50-$60 that was made in Aus or Europe and realize that everyone along the way made some $$:

The manufacturer

The overseas shipper

The importer

The Co. that makes the packaging

The shipper in the US that gets raw-product to where it's packaged

The shipper that transports packaged product to ammo manufacturers, distributers, large retailers/distribution centers

Retailers which also means another shipper in the case of internet direct sales.

I don't have a problem with lots of choices at all...but if you look at the list of dozens of shotgun powders, you can't help but wonder if there is a point of it all becoming pointless.
And then take an example of a truly universal, clean burning, uniform powder like DuPont PB, used in every hull, used with every wad, every primer...that never met a pistol or small rifle cartridge it didn't like....and discontinue it? Sheer marketing genius. Same minds that decided 4320 was redundant.

I don't believe you can take the formula for reduced loads with H4895 and apply it to IMR 4895. There are powders that are exactly alike and marketed as different powders from different manufacturers for instance H414 is the same as W760.

I posted this link on the two 4895s earlier in the thread: https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads-2.pdf

Hodgdon has the marketing rights to a whole passel of product lines now, but many if not most of the powders sold under those names is manufactured overseas or here by totally independent companies. Ownership of the brand names that powders are sold under here doesn’t mean they make it, or control the companies that do.

One example in the U.S. is St. Marks Powder Co, a subsidiary of General Dynamics, which is certainly not owned by teensy-weensy Hodgdon.

If you read the Propellant Profiles articles in Handloader regularly, you’ll find that many powders have long, complicated histories, often with multiple manufacturers over time.

Yes, and I for one am happy about that. I can develope a load from each, and have more loading flexability. What`s wrong with that?

The only issue I see with redundant powders is that I don't have the time or the money to try them all.

Growing up we used it in .22-250, .243, .308 & .30-06 which is about all we shot then.
Old man had bought a big metal drum of it somewhere along the way and decided that’s all we needed.
52.1 with a 150gr in .30-06 is accurate, so was 35gr under a 52gr bullet in .22-250. Have one for .308 that shot crazy accurate in an A-Bolt .308 I had years ago too.

Hodgdon owns and controls General Dynamics ? I don't think so. That is who owns and runs the plants in Canada and Florida . The Australian plant is owned and controlled by a large European manufacturer, whose name I have forgotten.

Perhaps off the subject somewhat, wondering who else may have my delima redundant powders? Checked my powder supply and discovered I have 36 different powder, any where from 1 lb to 10 lbs of each. What’s with that? Some I would bet a good number of u haven’t heard of, anyone remember Hodgdons H205 for instance? A number of those 36 I haven’t tried yet. At 85 I may never get around to. Nice problem to have ain’t it?

There is no such thing as redundancy unless the same powder has multiple labels such as 760 and H 414. Even then for availability purposes, you can buy each and blend to a batch for your own stock.

Other than that, there is always going to be a cartridge and load that likes one powder over another, even though they "seem to me to fit in the same niche of usefulness".