I have some 4570 handloads that I loaded up for a Ruger number one that I don't have anymore, I'm going to pick up a Ruger/Marlin 4570 lever action one of the new ones I'm wondering if you folks think this load is safe in the new Ruger lever action. It is speer 350 grain bullet, IMR, 4198 50 grains. Thanks for your help.

That’s Hodgdon’s max for lever guns with the Hornady 350. I wouldn’t run mine that warm and it would have way more recoil than I would want from my 1895G.

Depends on how maxed out those #1 loads are.

If they’re really hot, I’d pull the bullets and adjust the powder charge to fit the Marlin.

DF

I have owned three or four 95’s in 45/70 snd handloaded for all of them, I consider that load a little hot for these relative strong lever guns. As others have recommended I would not fire them in your new 95, particularly until you get the weapon and work up some loads to get an idea what it might digest,

I had one of the new version of the 1895 Marlin based on the 336 frame. Reading Ken Water's article on the three levels of loads for the 45-70, he stated that he thought the 1995 Marlin was in the same class. He was WRONG! I worked up to close to his loads and when I shot them the lever would snap down ejecting the fired case without help from me. Dunno if the loads were really too hot or I had a defective rifle. Brass looked OK and primers looked good. All I can add is that was the first and only time I ever saw a lever action rifle go semi-semi automatic. I can also add that the curved butt plate that came on the rifle hurt like hell. I traded it off for something else but I'll be damned if I can remember what.
PJ

Speer's most recent reload book lists IMR 4198 @ 51.5gr with 350gr flat nose. This load is for strong actions like Ruger No1, and other similar single shots or Siamese Mauser.

There's no data given for the 350FN and lever action because they are designed to expand at 1900fps. It mentions to expect little expansion in the notes.

Anyway your load is near max for Ruger No1 and an max lever action load would be 40--42gr IMR 4198. According to Speer your well over max.

I've had 2 M1895 Marlon 45-70s. I would not use Ruger#1 loads in it. The theory, or at least how we thought, the 1895 was offered in 444 Marlin at one time. The SAAMI pressure of the 444 was 51,000 psi. The 45-70 is something anemic like 28,000 psi to account for trapdoor rifles. The different load levels account for 3 pressure ranges - trapdoor, Marlin 1895, bolt guns. Then the 450 Marlin came along, SAAMI pressure is 43,000 psi. My bear load was a 400 gr Speer sitting over H4198 (can't recall how many grains) at close to 2000 ft/sec. I had an Re7 load that was similar velocity.

I also tried the Horn 350 gr RN. I shot 1 bear with it and was not impressed. The 350 RN was made as a light bullet for the 458 WM and is a bit too tough constructed for 45-70, at least in my opinion. The 400 gr Speer usually exits but will make a visible impression when it hits.

One thing I'll say about loading warm 45-70 loads - you'll run out of recoil tolerance before you run into pressure issues. The drop in the 1895 stock, plus 400 grains at 2000 ft/sec is more than most people care for. We used these guns/loads when we hunted Canada for black bears. It is a very potent black bear load but it kills out both ends.

What’s the point of overloading a 45-70? I have shot clear through Buffalo with a 405 grain bullet, all you get with more velocity is that the bullet will hit the dirt a little harder on the other side…

According to Hodgdons website 50gr of IMR 4198 is a max load for a levergun so they're likely ok to shoot in your rifle, However,

we're always cautioned to Work Up To a max load when changing Anything, including, primer, powder, bullets, you've changed the Rifle. I'd work up to a top load for That Rifle.

Also, the Speer 350 is a longer bullet from the crimp groove to the tip of the bullet so I doubt the cartridges will feed in a levergun, if you loaded them in full length brass. They'll be a bit long but as you said were fine in your #1.

I've used Speer 350 in a Marlin 45-70 but I had to load them in Hornadys 45-70 brass, they're shorter but that's a different situation.

This is precisely what I do. I use the shorter Hornady brass from their FTX cartridges to allow these bullets to run through my 1895 Guide Gun. As mentioned, these bullets were designed for 458 WM velocities and as such tend to penetrate deeply. I load them as a combo Elk hunting/Grizzer bear defense load for dark timber hunting.

Frog---OUT!

Shrap, agree there’s no sane reason to hot rod a .45-70. As you demonstrate, they’re very capable in their own right without our “help”.

Agree also that they can kick pretty hard, especially when pushed. So, load’em where they need to be loaded and let them do their thing.

I like mine. My comfort level and the gun’s comfort level are in agreement. We have a mutual understanding.

DF

My preference for a "hunting" 45-70 is a hard (bhn 18-22), wide as possible meplat, gaschecked cast bullet at as close to 1650 fps as possible, give or take for accuracy, give a little for trapper-length barrel. I've shot various game animals with such a load, total penetration no matter the angle.

I do have a High Wall that is for entertainment purposes only, shooting a 500 grain Government profile bullet at 1250 fps. Fun to shoot, and I like accepting the challenge of shooting such a rifle with a tang sight. I'm still learning, and probably don't have as good a sight as I could for varying distances, mine is a Marbles with no scale. Baby steps.

My serious rifles are a Marlin Guide gun and one of the new Trappers. Both equipped with low-power scopes. I throated the Trapper so that the chamber matched the GG for length, The Trapper had almost no throat. I've tried bullets up to 550 grains in them, the most versatile being 420 to 430 grains. 1650 or so is a velocity that allows some flattening of the trajectory but recoil is manageable. I've went to 1800+, but recoil was slowing recovery for another shot, and it just weren't no fun to shoot.

Another load with possibilities is a 500 grain RNFP at 1370 fps, tolerable to shoot but it sure will dig in.

I've tried 300 grain HPs at 2100+ fps. Trajectory emulated a 30-30 with the added benefit of 3X the recoil....

So true, and like Shrap said, you just hit the ground on the other side harder.

I did two things, first was obvious. Using a hardcast LBT type bullet, I just slowed it down, still shot through anything. Second, I put a Brockman's Rifles stock set on my guide gun (which really helped, it is a much better stock for recoil).

That load you use is quite powerful, comforting when hunting Bear.

Lately, I've gravitated towards heavy cast bullets (500+ grains), and they sure penetrate! Best was the Beartooth Bullets 525 at 1550 fps. But, I still prefer 420s or so at 1650. I maintain consciousness for more rounds.

I really hated to see Beartooth Bullets go off the market. Good Bullets, that Piledriver series.

I've read that the large diameter .45-70 round doesn't leave as much metal around the base of the case as does the .444 and smaller diameter rounds.

Some years ago, I got these photos off the web. The 1895 isn't made to hot rod this particular round. It's been tried and if the envelope is pushed, the result can be catastrophic as these pictures attest. The Achilles Heel, or weakest spot is the forward receiver ahead of the loading port. Less support there due to the design of the receiver and the diameter of the round.

So, I agree with Shrap, let the old round do it's thing, don't be monkeying around with it, especially in a 1895. Just not worth it.

I wonder how many fingers this dude lost, or if he still had a hand. I don't know what his load was, not sure I want to know.

I don't think that'll buff out.... But looks like the Leopold survived.


DF

I used to hot rod my .45-70 guide gun pretty hard with 400 grain Speer flat points and Varget. That load worked well, but I decided a while back that it was just too much of a good thing. I’ve backed off to more traditional.45-70 speeds with no regrets.

I wonder if that was deliberately done with a string and a caseload of Bullseye or Unique and remotely fired. Hope so. I've seen that around for years, yet haven't heard details.

I take all the beating I want at 28-30 Kpsi. My self imposed absolute limit (In other words, all I can stand) is around 35 Kpsi. There are platforms that are better designed for both pressure handling and recoil.

Similar to my handgun philosophy: If I need more than a .44 Mag with a 300 grain LBT at 1150 to 1200 fps, I get a rifle. Just don't like the recoil, matter of fact, prefer a .460 Rowland in a Glock 21 loaded to just north of .45 Super.

I once got into an experimentation phase with the .30-06 AI. That's when I "discovered" the .300 WinMag.

28 or so Kpsi is just fine, thank you....

Yeah, those photos have been around for years. Never got details, either.

Just shows the weak point on that particular gun, illustrated pretty well.

I added that just to remind readers to not mess with pushing hot .45-70 loads in an 1895.

DF

I've got one. I've also owned a Remlin and a couple pre-Remington guide guns.

I would not do it. That's a max load per Hodgdon. Given that, I would not shoot those without working up to them in your rifle first. Moreover, their data is with the Hornady bullet, not the Speer bullet, and I do not think the COL will fit through your rifle so even if safe, you're probably going to have to single load it rather than magazine feed them. Finally, recoil, in those rifles, gets rude somewhere around 1800 fps, and those will probably top 2000, maybe 2100.

I can't think of a reason other than laziness not to pull the bullets and start over so that is my advice.

Tom

Awhile back I saw a thread where a guy loaded 50grs of AA#7 instead of 50grs of RL7 but I'm not sure if it was that set of pictures or not.

I believe that would do it.

I’d like to see a picture of his hand, if he still has one.

DF

I suppose anything is possible, but why would anyone do that? Especially with a decent scope mounted?

I bought some 405 grain bullets here on the campfire.

They had a shrink wrap type plastic on them. I think they are clear choice?

I clocked them at 2000 fps out of a 1895.

I must have used #1 data to load them.

So I bought a #1 to shoot them.

Yeah, who’d put a Leupold in danger. If sacrificing a Marlin, a discerning dude would surely save the Leupold.

I doubt it was deliberate. The wrong #7 powder makes sense. RL-7 is a good .45-70 powder, #7 not so much.

DF

Very nice. Which bullet?

But then again he could get it replaced for free

I'll play the Devil's advocate. It could be mounted later, but would be difficult to boresight...

I use both AA7 (.45 Super, .460 Rowland) and RL 7, mainly for .458 Socom, but it does have good application in the .45-70. Haven't tried it yet, but if I do, I'll take the Leupold off.

I like that way of thinking.

I once bought a .22 Magnum because I had just bought a beater car from somebody and found a box of shells under the seat.

You can get pointed TTSXs or other spitzer bullets, to run in a .45-70 #1, so higher speed makes sense from a trajectory standpoint. Any other rifle, like a 1895, I don't see the point of pushing the pressures. I'd say stick to established, "modern lever action loads".

I have started playing with subsonic 410gr Hornadys in the .45-70, so I want to try them on deer & pigs.

I have hand loaded for, written about and reviewed many 1895's since the reintroduction in 1971 and also was given some of those Speer 350gn Flat points when they first arrived to review. At that time however, the distributor wasn't sure which .458 cartridge they were intended for, so I started with the Marlin's where they shot way under MOA and just north of half that which surprised a lot of people, including me.

In keeping this response directed to the topic, here my findings for IMR 4198 tended to be lighter than that of H 4198 which is the Australian powder AR2207. All my .45/70 experience is from JM rifles.

300gn Hornady - 50gn IMR4198 for 2049fps in 22" Barrel
350gn Speer FP - I used 3 other powders and not IMR 4198 with this bullet unfortunately.
400gn Speer - 47gn IMR4198 for 1914fps in 22" barrel
405gn Remington - 46gn IMR4198 for 1793fps in 22" barrel
500gn Hornady RN - 45gn AR2207 which is H 4198 and again, a little slower burning than the IMR powder for 1576fps though I settled on 44gn for 1550fps as a hunting load single loaded of course.

When I later owned a 26" Cowboy rifle, I used H 4198 here in the US and found a couple of things, firstly, the longer barrel does make a difference increasing velocities over the usual 22" barrel, secondly, the powder charges were notably higher using H Vs IMR versions of this powder. Here is what I found.

250gn Barnes X - 60gn H4198 for 2650fps. (Compressed load)
300gn Remington - 58gn H4198 (Brian Pierce's load @38KPSI) for 2454fps
300gn Barnes X - 55gn H4198 for 2322fps.
405gn Remington - 50gn H4198 for 2058fps.
405gn Woodleigh - 50gn H4198 for 2026fps.


Hope these loads can provide some interest in this rifle and cartridge. Please start lower and work up.

I like the 250 gr. TSX Barnes at 2,550 fps, Marlin data, out of my .45-70 Marlin. I chest shot one doe and it blew lung tissue out the other side of her chest. There was a blood gusher that was pretty amazing. Needless to say, she didn't go far.

I shot a young hog with nearly the same effect. The far rib cage had the exit hole and the ribs were broken in a radial fashion, cracks leading out from the hole, like a broken window. And, lung tissue was on the far side. That bullet must have really pushed that rib cage pretty far out to get that fracture pattern.

And, that load is really accurate. The hollow point looks like the open end of an ashtray and hits game accordingly.

Check Barnes data for that load. Not a long range load, but will do pretty good out to 200 yds. or so, maybe a bit more if you know the drop.

DF

Just a side note:
Most of my loads were developed before modern manual data was available and attempted to flatten the trajectories for semi open forest hunting which is mainly what I was doing. The Marlin's tended to show capability for velocity increases, but as many have alluded to, you paid a price in discomfort with the hotter loads and because pointed bullets were showing up in the '90's in particular, they created more interest in pushing velocities albeit, also demonstrating that the basic rifle design wasn't friendly to pushing loads excessively.

For that reason, I dropped the .45/70, stayed with the .30/30 for light use and concentrated more on the .458 Winchester and .460 Weatherby (and a bunch of .416's to be truthful) which utilized those lighter pointed bullets in a more efficient package, in a rifle designed for heavier recoil management and serious use where the .458 caliber may be intended. This certainly wasn't Australian feral culling or American deer hunting which as others have commented, doesn't require heavy loads to secure success in the field over usual brush shooting ranges where this lever rifle is more suited. This makes the above quoted loads just a part of my own history and not necessarily a recommendation on how hard you can push the 1895 design which is really a modified 336 action thinned internally to accommodate the fatter cartridge. Removing metal for design evolution does not strength the action. Something to think about, as I would tend to favor lighter loads in using a .45/70 today.

That deserves an attaboy sticker on your Loony card.

I’m impressed. Love your logical problem solving.

DF

405 grain cast.

There isn't an animal in North America that will stop that bullet from a complete pass through side to side. The unecessary chase to get those velocities above 2000 FPS is ridiculous.

I think everybody has to hot rod a .45-70 at least a little. I mean, it’s not like anybody buys one because they don’t recoil. My current load is a REM 405 and 50 grains of 3031 out of my #1. About 1800fps.

It’s accurate and will likely flatten anything in TN, but when I run out of them, it’ll probably get weaned over to 400’ish cast about 300fps slower.

Funny how somewhere in your 40’s hot rodding gets less important….

Loaded up some 300 gr Sierra FNHP over 40 grains of Rx7. My go to squirrel load.

My favorite is cast 30:1 500 gr w/a duplex load of 6 gr SR4759 and 60 gr Swiss 1.5 FG. It's all the muscle I need so far as I'm concerned. Someday I may put the scope on Thumper, but so far it's just a tang sight.



100 yards, elbow rest:

Any one who doesn’t like loading up a 45/70 never seen Taylor sheridans movie wind river.

I think I saw the fishing line jerking the perps when 1895 hit.

I never did see em “ crimping the cannulure “.

Yeah for sure. What I did back in the day doesn't hold much interest for me now.

I see Fire contributors who hunted for decades with magnums, now going more to conventional rounds.

One contributor who I won't name, is now shooting his 7-08, his 7RM staying mostly in his safe.

I'm about there myself.

DF

We all start light, go too far, then back off to reality at some point. Well, most of us......

I’ve become very fond of lightweight rifles for hunting, and smaller cartridges go easier with those. Don’t see any less killing power so far. Something else I’ve come to enjoy is getting in close, and last season I began, though circumstances, hunting exclusively from the ground. I doubt I’ll ever climb another tree.

I'm poster boy for that. I run 37 grains of 3031 behind a cast 405

Thumper is a beast......

Not sure if this is 'hot-rodding' or not, but I did shoot 500gr PP bullets out of a Marlin 1895CB, Rx 7 is dandy, 1600FP is Stout. You certainly don't want to do many sitting at the bench.......

I have fired 57 grains of 3031 pushing a 350 Hornady RN out of 3 different Marlin 45-70s, and it has been ridiculously accurate.

I’m pretty pleased with the accuracy of my 430 grain cast bullets in my Marlin GG. Also, I thought that the felt recoil from the bench wasn’t bad at all. Yes it jumps a bit, but I expected it to…..it ain’t a Varmint rifle. I probably could have improved on the accuracy some, but this was my fist load fired from the rifle. While not great, I didn’t think that with the shortage and expense of components……I could live with it! memtb

Why take a chance? Invest in a RCBS ki wtis hammer puller and break them down and start over.
I always found 50 grains of Re7 and a 300 grain Speer JHP to be my max and really effective on deer.

I don't hot rod my 1895 for a couple reasons. Number one the rifle is really light. Number two I'm not ever going to shoot a Cape Buffalo with it. I have an 1886 that is heavy; I might shoot heavier loads in it, but I have not so far. I tried a few jacketed loads but have pretty much decided the rifle is meant for cast bullets. The Marlin has an old steel Lyman aperture sight on it.

Here's a couple loads that shot well enough in my 1895 - steel sights remember:

45-70 Marlin, 1895G, 350 grain Hornady, 55 grain IMR3031 1.7" group
45-70 Marlin, 1895G, 400 grain w/GC cast, 34.5 grain 5744, 2.18" group - favorite load so far.

I think that cast load should work well on bison.

I used the samne bullet with AA1680 powder with devastating results on deer. IIRC mine where going 2600fps even.

That's really close to an absurd statement, considering, I suppose, what you want to call "Hot-rodding".

Yes, there is a very good reason to get the most realistic velocity possible out of a 45-70 & it's called velocity, which translates into bullet drop improvement on an already rainbow type trajectory..................unless of course you to like to restrict yourself to shorter shots or lots of ballistic gyrations.

Maybe you are happy with a 270 / 130gr at 2500 FPS when the round is easily capable of 3000 FPS? Likely not.

I've had 2 Marlin 1895's & hunting pards have had another pair.............all mid-1970's vintage rifles.

All have has a steady diet of 53 gr. of IMR-3031 & 400/405 grain bullets for many, many years & untold number of animals.

With not a single adverse event & no obvious negative effect on the rifles. And I don't recall ever really trashing any brass for not being useable or loose primer pockets...............just trashing some because of age brittleness & number of loadings getting high.

But a recoil pad does make life more enjoyable with those loads in an 1895.................

YMMV

MM

MM, guess it depends on how one defines “hot rodding”.

My point and as expressed by others, don’t overdo a good thing. The big round works well in its design range, and the 1895 isn’t the strongest .45-70.

DF

Exactly

Yeah, 2,600 fps is the Marlin Barnes load with 1680, no excessive pressure.

Deadly round.

DF