Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 45/70 hand loads in ruger/Marlin lever action

I have some 4570 handloads that I loaded up for a Ruger number one that I don't have anymore, I'm going to pick up a Ruger/Marlin 4570 lever action one of the new ones I'm wondering if you folks think this load is safe in the new Ruger lever action. It is speer 350 grain bullet, IMR, 4198 50 grains. Thanks for your help.

That’s Hodgdon’s max for lever guns with the Hornady 350. I wouldn’t run mine that warm and it would have way more recoil than I would want from my 1895G.

Depends on how maxed out those #1 loads are.

If they’re really hot, I’d pull the bullets and adjust the powder charge to fit the Marlin.

DF

I have owned three or four 95’s in 45/70 snd handloaded for all of them, I consider that load a little hot for these relative strong lever guns. As others have recommended I would not fire them in your new 95, particularly until you get the weapon and work up some loads to get an idea what it might digest,

I had one of the new version of the 1895 Marlin based on the 336 frame. Reading Ken Water's article on the three levels of loads for the 45-70, he stated that he thought the 1995 Marlin was in the same class. He was WRONG! I worked up to close to his loads and when I shot them the lever would snap down ejecting the fired case without help from me. Dunno if the loads were really too hot or I had a defective rifle. Brass looked OK and primers looked good. All I can add is that was the first and only time I ever saw a lever action rifle go semi-semi automatic. I can also add that the curved butt plate that came on the rifle hurt like hell. I traded it off for something else but I'll be damned if I can remember what.
PJ

Speer's most recent reload book lists IMR 4198 @ 51.5gr with 350gr flat nose. This load is for strong actions like Ruger No1, and other similar single shots or Siamese Mauser.

There's no data given for the 350FN and lever action because they are designed to expand at 1900fps. It mentions to expect little expansion in the notes.

Anyway your load is near max for Ruger No1 and an max lever action load would be 40--42gr IMR 4198. According to Speer your well over max.

I've had 2 M1895 Marlon 45-70s. I would not use Ruger#1 loads in it. The theory, or at least how we thought, the 1895 was offered in 444 Marlin at one time. The SAAMI pressure of the 444 was 51,000 psi. The 45-70 is something anemic like 28,000 psi to account for trapdoor rifles. The different load levels account for 3 pressure ranges - trapdoor, Marlin 1895, bolt guns. Then the 450 Marlin came along, SAAMI pressure is 43,000 psi. My bear load was a 400 gr Speer sitting over H4198 (can't recall how many grains) at close to 2000 ft/sec. I had an Re7 load that was similar velocity.

I also tried the Horn 350 gr RN. I shot 1 bear with it and was not impressed. The 350 RN was made as a light bullet for the 458 WM and is a bit too tough constructed for 45-70, at least in my opinion. The 400 gr Speer usually exits but will make a visible impression when it hits.

One thing I'll say about loading warm 45-70 loads - you'll run out of recoil tolerance before you run into pressure issues. The drop in the 1895 stock, plus 400 grains at 2000 ft/sec is more than most people care for. We used these guns/loads when we hunted Canada for black bears. It is a very potent black bear load but it kills out both ends.

What’s the point of overloading a 45-70? I have shot clear through Buffalo with a 405 grain bullet, all you get with more velocity is that the bullet will hit the dirt a little harder on the other side…

According to Hodgdons website 50gr of IMR 4198 is a max load for a levergun so they're likely ok to shoot in your rifle, However,

we're always cautioned to Work Up To a max load when changing Anything, including, primer, powder, bullets, you've changed the Rifle. I'd work up to a top load for That Rifle.

Also, the Speer 350 is a longer bullet from the crimp groove to the tip of the bullet so I doubt the cartridges will feed in a levergun, if you loaded them in full length brass. They'll be a bit long but as you said were fine in your #1.

I've used Speer 350 in a Marlin 45-70 but I had to load them in Hornadys 45-70 brass, they're shorter but that's a different situation.

This is precisely what I do. I use the shorter Hornady brass from their FTX cartridges to allow these bullets to run through my 1895 Guide Gun. As mentioned, these bullets were designed for 458 WM velocities and as such tend to penetrate deeply. I load them as a combo Elk hunting/Grizzer bear defense load for dark timber hunting.

Frog---OUT!

Shrap, agree there’s no sane reason to hot rod a .45-70. As you demonstrate, they’re very capable in their own right without our “help”.

Agree also that they can kick pretty hard, especially when pushed. So, load’em where they need to be loaded and let them do their thing.

I like mine. My comfort level and the gun’s comfort level are in agreement. We have a mutual understanding.

DF

My preference for a "hunting" 45-70 is a hard (bhn 18-22), wide as possible meplat, gaschecked cast bullet at as close to 1650 fps as possible, give or take for accuracy, give a little for trapper-length barrel. I've shot various game animals with such a load, total penetration no matter the angle.

I do have a High Wall that is for entertainment purposes only, shooting a 500 grain Government profile bullet at 1250 fps. Fun to shoot, and I like accepting the challenge of shooting such a rifle with a tang sight. I'm still learning, and probably don't have as good a sight as I could for varying distances, mine is a Marbles with no scale. Baby steps.

My serious rifles are a Marlin Guide gun and one of the new Trappers. Both equipped with low-power scopes. I throated the Trapper so that the chamber matched the GG for length, The Trapper had almost no throat. I've tried bullets up to 550 grains in them, the most versatile being 420 to 430 grains. 1650 or so is a velocity that allows some flattening of the trajectory but recoil is manageable. I've went to 1800+, but recoil was slowing recovery for another shot, and it just weren't no fun to shoot.

Another load with possibilities is a 500 grain RNFP at 1370 fps, tolerable to shoot but it sure will dig in.

I've tried 300 grain HPs at 2100+ fps. Trajectory emulated a 30-30 with the added benefit of 3X the recoil....

So true, and like Shrap said, you just hit the ground on the other side harder.

I did two things, first was obvious. Using a hardcast LBT type bullet, I just slowed it down, still shot through anything. Second, I put a Brockman's Rifles stock set on my guide gun (which really helped, it is a much better stock for recoil).

That load you use is quite powerful, comforting when hunting Bear.

Lately, I've gravitated towards heavy cast bullets (500+ grains), and they sure penetrate! Best was the Beartooth Bullets 525 at 1550 fps. But, I still prefer 420s or so at 1650. I maintain consciousness for more rounds.

I really hated to see Beartooth Bullets go off the market. Good Bullets, that Piledriver series.

I've read that the large diameter .45-70 round doesn't leave as much metal around the base of the case as does the .444 and smaller diameter rounds.

Some years ago, I got these photos off the web. The 1895 isn't made to hot rod this particular round. It's been tried and if the envelope is pushed, the result can be catastrophic as these pictures attest. The Achilles Heel, or weakest spot is the forward receiver ahead of the loading port. Less support there due to the design of the receiver and the diameter of the round.

So, I agree with Shrap, let the old round do it's thing, don't be monkeying around with it, especially in a 1895. Just not worth it.

I wonder how many fingers this dude lost, or if he still had a hand. I don't know what his load was, not sure I want to know.

I don't think that'll buff out.... But looks like the Leopold survived.


DF

I used to hot rod my .45-70 guide gun pretty hard with 400 grain Speer flat points and Varget. That load worked well, but I decided a while back that it was just too much of a good thing. I’ve backed off to more traditional.45-70 speeds with no regrets.

I wonder if that was deliberately done with a string and a caseload of Bullseye or Unique and remotely fired. Hope so. I've seen that around for years, yet haven't heard details.

I take all the beating I want at 28-30 Kpsi. My self imposed absolute limit (In other words, all I can stand) is around 35 Kpsi. There are platforms that are better designed for both pressure handling and recoil.

Similar to my handgun philosophy: If I need more than a .44 Mag with a 300 grain LBT at 1150 to 1200 fps, I get a rifle. Just don't like the recoil, matter of fact, prefer a .460 Rowland in a Glock 21 loaded to just north of .45 Super.

I once got into an experimentation phase with the .30-06 AI. That's when I "discovered" the .300 WinMag.

28 or so Kpsi is just fine, thank you....

Yeah, those photos have been around for years. Never got details, either.

Just shows the weak point on that particular gun, illustrated pretty well.

I added that just to remind readers to not mess with pushing hot .45-70 loads in an 1895.

DF

I've got one. I've also owned a Remlin and a couple pre-Remington guide guns.

I would not do it. That's a max load per Hodgdon. Given that, I would not shoot those without working up to them in your rifle first. Moreover, their data is with the Hornady bullet, not the Speer bullet, and I do not think the COL will fit through your rifle so even if safe, you're probably going to have to single load it rather than magazine feed them. Finally, recoil, in those rifles, gets rude somewhere around 1800 fps, and those will probably top 2000, maybe 2100.

I can't think of a reason other than laziness not to pull the bullets and start over so that is my advice.

Tom

Awhile back I saw a thread where a guy loaded 50grs of AA#7 instead of 50grs of RL7 but I'm not sure if it was that set of pictures or not.

I believe that would do it.

I’d like to see a picture of his hand, if he still has one.

DF