I reread your article from Feb 2006 Handloader entitled "Why the .308 is Great". While I think the .308 is a good cartridge I have never been able to warm up to it. In the article you say, to paraphrase, the 30-06 is at its best accuracy 100 fps slower than top speed about what a .308 gets and where it is still accurate. How then does that figure with the faster 30s? Are they less accurate still (not something I have noticed) or is there something about the 30-06 design that makes it less accurate when driven to its top speed.

Thank you for your time.

I just re-read his article "Why I hate the 308" a few evenings ago. I don't recall the velocity/accuracy corollary in that issue...:)

I have three 30-06's. A Ruger No.1A, a Remington 760 and a Winchester Model 70. All three will hold about a inch with the same full power load.

Doc

In general, yes, the larger the cartridge, the less accurate, at least at normal ranges. But this is largely unnoticed because of many factors, especially in factory sporters that are relatively light, have relatively loose chambers, scopes not designed for precision, etc, and are run by people who are generally not adept at handloading super-accurate ammo or shooting tiny groups.

I really don't want to discuss this further here, because it will just get into a whole ball of wax that was just done over again in another forum about inherent accuracy. If you want to argue the point, then read the article that will be out in HANDLOADER on that very subject any day now.

The two articles written on the the .308, "Why I Hate The .308" and "Why The .308 Is Great," have different themes, which is why they are not really contradictory, even though written by the same person!

JB

"I thought I did not like the 308, that was until I screwed up and took one hunting"

Pretty much. The first article ("Hate") was about irrational dislikes some people have for certain cartridges. I avoided the .308 for years because my first real rifle was a .308, a Savage 99 with steel buttplate and a terrible trigger. It was too much for a 112-pound kid, and gave me a terrible flinch that took years to get over. The fault was not the .308's, but that was my point: Most of us develop prejudices against certain rounds not because of the cartridge itself (there are really very few bad rounds on the market, especially with today's marvelous bullets for everything from varmints to moose), but because of the rifle involved.

The second article ("Great") was about why the .308 really is great.

JB

Pretty much. The first article ("Hate") was about irrational dislikes some people have for certain cartridges. I avoided the .308 for years because my first real rifle was a .308, a Savage 99 with steel buttplate and a terrible trigger. It was too much for a 112-pound kid, and gave me a terrible flinch that took years to get over. The fault was not the .308's, but that was my point: Most of us develop prejudices against certain rounds not because of the cartridge itself (there are really very few bad rounds on the market, especially with today's marvelous bullets for everything from varmints to moose), but because of the rifle involved.

The second article ("Great") was about why the .308 really is great. I actually didn't even screw up and hunt with one. I deliberately purchased a rifle that cost over $3000 in the chambering!

JB

A match rifle in 308 with military match ammo will outshoot 99% of the guys who think they are good shots. Sure, bring yer wallet

Mule Deer

Like I said before I never could warm up to the .308 Win. My first rifle was a 30-06 Mod 670 Win that put 5 handloaded Nosler Partitions into one ragged hole you could cover with a dime. That took quit some doing on my part (I was just beginning to handload) to get those rounds as perfect as I was capable. I was satisfied and never did it again figuring the 3/4' to 1" 3 shot groups I was getting with it without the effort were good enough for hunting. So, I guess that gets back to your point that in everyday rifles one doesn't see the difference and goes on perfectly happy. The only unhappy thing was I sold that rifle with the understanding I would get first crack at buying it back. Well, the guy gave it to his brother instead.

Thank you for responding.

The 308 never did got me too excited until I bought a used Kimber 84m, I was looking for a new 7-08, couldn't find one and then this popped up. REally light, fairly accurate, recoil is Ok even at 6 lbs scoped, kills deer like lightning with regular bullets.

Me also. DI not care for it, then I borrowed one and killed a big ol' boar hog. Loved it ever since.

BMT

I've always avoided the .308 and 30/06 mainly because all the 'old men' in deer camp had them in Remmy auto's and they just seemed boring. I now own both, since I've gotten over their 'lack of appeal'..no belt or anything! One thing I've noticed after shooting my stock .308 700 BDL and my son's 700 SPS youth in .308..it just seems to want to shoot. Even handloads, they shot almost everything with monotonious regularity. I've killed several whitetails out to about 300 yards and it's performance is impressive. That kind of performace is suppose to come from rifles with longer bolts. I guess all those 'old guys' in deer camp did know what they were talking about.

The older I get and the more rifles and cartridges I try the more I like the old cartridges with modest velocities....... like the .222 Rem., .243, .308, .30-06, .338 Win Mag, .375 H&H.
They all do what needs to get done.

One little secret about the .308: with 130 and 150-grain bullets, it is easy to match .270 Winchester muzzle velocities. This doesn't seem like much, but muzzle velocity is the MAJOR influence on trajectoryout to the normal maximum of 300-400 yards. So the .308 essentially matches the .270, which has always had the reputation of being a very flat-shoting round.

If you don't believe all this, look up some loading data and ballistics tables--or load 'em up and shoot 'em yourself.

JB

My one and only true big game rifle is a .308. I bought it 30+ years ago and immediately discovered it was all I'd likely ever need. Maybe I'll take less guff for it now that I'm a genuine geezer.

Nope you'll still take a bunch of guff, but we will respect you...

Dober

After rereading my last post to Mule Deer it sounded like I was getting a little snobbish. Not my intent, just saying what this inexpensive rifle would do.

Snobbish? On the Campfire? Why, we never tolerate ANY of that sort of stuff!

No, I didn't take it that way. Personally, I have a bunch of relatively cheap rifles that shoot incredibly well, and I am just as fond/proud of them as you are. The fact is that today's factory rifles and fine bullets shoot about as well as any of need even for the most demending hunting.

The fact that my own .308 cost so much is just an example of, well, snobbishness.

JB

The .308 has a cult following among deer hunters in Australia. It is reliably efficient at dropping 5 of the 6 species of deer there in their tracks. Sambar of course, usually and commonly, take a lot more shots to stop with the .308.

My first sambar hunt was a lesson in demonstrating my ignorance to the full. I had the pleasure of hunting with a Botanist who was obsessed with them. He would show me a track where there was none to be seen and browse where I never thought to look, then recite the latin name as well as the common name and inform me why they ate one part of the plant and not another. Good thing I like learning as he taught me much.

His choice of rifles were 2 identical factory selected Steyr Luxus carbines in 9.3 X 62 and .308. ALthough the 9.3 was the cartridge that could drop a sambar with one shot and the .308 regularly required two or more on a departing and wounded animal, he still preferred to carry that .308. That, I never understood, at least for sambar.

The Deer stalking clubs were full of .308's however, and for fallow/whitetail sized game through to red/kudu sized animals, the .308 performed with utter reliability.

Most hunters there use the 130 grain bullet for pest control and 150 grainers for serious deer and pig hunting. I never met any heavy bullet users that I can remember, but I did hunt with people who took shots equally as long in range as myself, or any others in camp who chose a bigger cartridge.

One thing that stood out over the years, was that a .308 user, usually stayed away from the bugger cartridges on the basis that they saw no deficit in the .308's performance and also I never saw a .308 user ever, that walked away from the cartridge. That, is interesting and a testement within itself.

AGW

My first 308 was a little pricey, it was a Blaser Stutzen K95 single shot. I fell in love with the rifle first. I didn't want to wait till another came along in a more "suitable" caliber so I "made do" with the 308 and figured it would grow on me. When the time came to add another barrel I opted for a 22 Hornet barrel as opposed to a "more suitable" deer round as I originally had planned. It has proved itself well. I have also been pleased with the managed recoil loads that Remington offers.

I killed my first deer with an '06 way back in 1960. I didn't start shooting the .308 until the 90's after discovering what a great and effective round the 7X57 was with 140 gr. Nosler Partitions.
What I've concluded is that the .308 is at it's best as a short, light rifle. It does very well with 18-20 inch barrels and really light rifles shooting the lighter 125-165 gr. bullets.
The 30'06 seems to have more of an edge in a little longer barreled rifles shooting the heavier 180-200 gr. bullets.
I use two .308's. I'm very happy with them.
I'm ordering a 30'06 built. 23-24 inch barrel, Mauser action, MPI stock, at 7.25-7.5 lbs. Leupold 4X and 6X scopes. Tickles my fancy as a better elk rifle. To go along with my .280. E

This is a little off topic, but let me demonstrate my ignorance, AGW:

You say that "Sambar of course, usually and commonly, take a lot more shots to stop with the .308"

What is it about sambar that requires so much rifle? You mention that the 308 works fine on red deer and kudu, and I've found it to work well on moose (I've used 180 grain bullets). What's the story on sambar?

I've always liked the 308. It was the first rifle I was actually trained on (in the Army) but not the first one I owned.

They had very good accuracy potential, and the shorter action makes them stiffer (I'd think.) Until you get above 160 gr. (and I don't) I think the 308 is more efficient.

But, there's no arguing with the 30-06. For some purposes, not for mine, I guess it's better. Six of one, Six .000001 of another.

My first purchase out of college was a Browning BLR Lever Action in .308. I loved (and still do) the way it carried. I had been hunting with an old Lee Enfield .303 and my great grandfather's Marlin 1893 in .30-30. Next purchase was a Ruger 10-22 and third was a Ruger MK 1 .22 target pistol with the 6 7/8" barrel (killed LOTS of tree rats with those two).

I own three .308's and have gotten 70 whitetails with them, and have never felt undergunned with them. My two longest shots on deer have been with .308's (and both were clean, one-shot kills).

I remember Elmer Keith once wrote that he got invited to an antelope hunt and the One Shot Antelope Club provided him the rifle to use. It was a Ruger #1 in .308. He was NOT impressed and wanted something stouter, but used it reluctantly. But he got his antelope anyway. IIRC, he begrudgingly admitted that it was "adequate".

Sambar are a heavily built deer that appear at a glance to resemble a jersy cow, as their legs look short in relation to the bulk of their body size with a pronounced fat round belly.

They are preditor oriented and are a primary food source for tiger, leopard and hyena in India and other countries where they originate. This makes them very wary and cunning and the biggest difference is that they do not live as they did in their country of origin, where you will see both sambar an chital in herds in flat swamp country on the documentaries.

The sambar in Australia have adopted to the higher elevations of the Great Dividing Range (Blue Mountains)with its scrub choked fern gullies and thicker timbered mountains in the south east.

There is also a smaller herd in the Northern Territory on the Coburg Peninsula, but I have not hunted that herd and the antlers appear to grow less that the southern animals.

When shot, (if you are that lucky) they run like hell and will lay in water, under trees and scub and permit you to walk past them. They are extremely difficult to drop on the spot without a spine or head shot and even the major sambar authorities carry heavy rifles up to .458 loaded with 500 grain Woodleighs as they proved a little softer than equivalent Hornady's for these deer.

Sambar tax a hunter no matter how experienced and often you will go several years to get one, or between successes, even though you are among them and find sign and scent all around you.

Many hunters see one when they are stopped for a nature break and have their rifle leaning up against a tree, or when giving up for the day and walking and talking along a trail back to camp. Sometimes these deer will peek over a bush to see what the racket is even though you had no idea they were that close.

As I have said before, these are the hardest deer in the world to hunt. They dodge tigers a for living and a man is nothing. I would guess that more sambar are taken by luck and circumstance that by hunting them down and deliberately taking the shot. Some can do it, the majority never will.

This is one reason that even though the Victorian Government implemented a hunting licence for them, there is a 365 day hunting season. You will need it and several more on average.

AGW

I am already an ole slow grandpa, as I continue to slow down maybe I will be ready for a .308 in about 10 more years. :-)

As I mentioned above I haven't experienced 30-06's not liking full power loads with the three rifles I have but maybe I've been lucky.
As far as 308 goes, I own two of them, a left hand Remington 700 BDL with a glass bedded CDL stock and a Savage 99. Both are scoped. These two rifle, shooting the same RX15, 165 gr. bullet load are my favorite deer rifles. They are lighter than my 06's and kill deer just as well.

Doc

My 308 hunting rifle disagrees with you. I can hold on muley hair out to a little over 400 yds with Sierra 125 SP or 168 MK but get a lot more wind drift with the 125s.
I usually find it's silly to chase a few FPS.
Faithful Reader,

Yep, just tried some 130gr TSXs and got an average of 3053fps w/ 49gr IMR-4895 from a 22" barrel. Also getting 2921 w/ 46gr R15 behind 150gr Sierra Game Kings. Both of those are firmly in .270 territory. Can't wait to try 'em out on deer and pigs....

John

Lapua brass?

Yep. Lapua.

John

mathman or Hondo64d,

Please educate me - what is the significance of the Lapua brass? Is it just that mathman knows Hondo64d's reloading pattern well, or is there some particular reason mathman asked?

John and I both like Lapua brass, it's very well made and consistent, and we chat about our 308 developments now and then.

Also Lapua brass is a good bit thicker than the popular
Winchester brand and so it builds pressure and velocity quicker with somewhat smaller charges.

mathman

I haven't verified it for myself, but Lapua brass has the reputation of being thicker than most others, therefore less case capacity. As a result, takes less powder to reach a given velocity than other brass. At least that's the theory....

Wanted to add, that it seems to be really good quality stuff, with uniform neck thickness, resulting in very little runout.

John

Hondo,

My Lapua cases run about 18 grains heavier than my Winchesters, and the loaded round neck diameters are .337" for the Lapua vs. .332" for the Winchester.

Math

I thought you guys might be talking about brass thickness/volume since mathman's question was in response to some powder load and velocity data. Thanks for the info.

Thanks for sharing that, guys!

Aussie..,

You wrote, "There is also a smaller herd in the Northern Territory on the Coburg Peninsula, but I have not hunted that herd and the antlers appear to grow less that the southern animals."

This is way off the thread and no one's ever gone off thread before but ... Some biologist came up with a theory that the further north an animal was found, the bigger it grew. But that was north of the equator. So south of the equator, do they get bigger the furhter south you go, in your experience?

Forgive me I have sinned.

This cartridge is probably one of the few that I have never owned a rifle for. I have to say I am rather disappointed in myself for neglecting this pinnacle in military and sporting design. A friend of mine built a heavy barreled lunker a few years back on a then rare Rem 700 SA. I believe the barrel was an inexpensive Montana Rifleman Stainless 'water pipe' and McMillan A2. When we took it to the range for its original break in, we were blown away by the consistency and sub-half MOA accuracy. Though the rifle weighs 14lbs all kitted up, he was insistent that it was to be a hunting rifle, built for specific situations. Groups were amazing during break in, and due to the weight it was a pleasure to shoot. We eventually moved over to the metallic silhouettes to start developing a drop chart. Well the drop chart took minutes to develop as there was a bazillion programs on the inter-chat and books galore to assist in the guesstimations. . Being that we had a spotting scope along, the metallic rams were freshly painted and the wind had moved on bother other unfortunate people, it would have been a waste to leave the range with 50 rounds of ammo in the pocket.
We eventually found that it was child's play to mark the rams with 'eyes' at 500m! And as a bonus the conditions were perfect to develop vapor trails visible for the majority of the shots. I looked at my friend and told him that if he was planning on using this rifle to hunt it should be dubbed 'Safeway', as it would be as easy as going to the market for meat with this rifle. The name stuck and when our hunting group of friends refer to this rifle by that name, a tone of excitement and awe enters their voice.
Before I relate this next story, please understand that myself and my friend constantly practice and work with our firearms. We take the well being of our prey very seriously, and make every effort to get as reasonably close as we can to the animals, as we are HUNTERS not killers. And the terrain we regularly hunt deer is flat fields with little or no cover for miles at times.
This past fall I witnessed and amazing feat on the part of the .308 WIN and my friend. We were stalking some does that had entered some high grass in a field that had been known to hold some large bucks. Bucks are rarely harvested there as the terrain allows the animals to see you long before you see them and these deer often run at the sight of man at a mile or more.
We saw the does enter the grass with a spotting scope from quite a distance and had taken the time to make a slow stalk through some round bales beside a field road. When we approached the grass at about 500yds I could see a doe stand up and start moving around in the grass. The grass height only allowed you to see the top of the head and ears. I was about 100yds to the left of my friend in a rare patch of carrigana bushes, and he was behind a bale when I saw this. I assumed the doe had seen us as their postion was elevated, As she headed out the west side of the grass (my side)I saw a grand pair of antlers stand up and follow her. Oh no, Whitetail Buck! And we where in no position, as I could not see my friend and I was way farther away then my equipment and comfort one would allow me to think about shooting. I looked around, and was out of cover, period. I sat down at the edge of the brush and set up my rifle and sticks, hoping that my friend had seen the deer and was closer than I was. I ranged the doe as she stepped from the grass and stopped,...no range...no range...I tried about 100 yards closer...521....oh my. She was well out of my comfort zone with my new rifle. I knew how my loads shot out to 400yds very well, and that was my limit. At least I'd get to see this buck, and have something to dream about that night.
The buck cleared the grass and the doe ran, and I for the life of me cannot tell you were she went as that buck filled my view finder entirely. He was obviously the largest whitetail I had ever seen in that area, and I grew up less than 15 miles away. My feelings of elation quickly evaporated with the hot November weather as I realized that this buck was well out of range, and that doe would likely lead him in an inconsistent maze all over the county. The buck dropped his head to fill his nose with her scent and quickly jogged to the two-track in the field. He stopped like someone had yanked the leash, his ears nearly touching his belly-button under him. He spun around and whatever scent had grabbed his attention, he had his head down and buried in it. That was when I heard a sound very familiar, yet at the time,very shocking. I watched the buck bolt maybe a yard and then nose dive, teeth to turf, plowing the top soil with his mandible. He rolled into a nearby patch of uncut barley, and I quickly turned to my right to see my friend, cradling Safeway, doing the most uncoordinated happy dance I have ever seen. We both ran for that barley and met about 100yds short. He told me he saw the buck clear the grass just as he peeked over a bale. He had just gotten the range before the buck started to move. 600yds. He dialed in the Leupold and got a rest over the bale just as the buck stopped the second time, and by magic (and probably the incalculable amount of range time) steadied the cross hairs behind the bucks shoulder. The 165gr Accubond left the barrel as a surprise, and you know the rest.
The bullet jellied the lungs quite nicely and penetrated the bucks chest at a perfect forward angle. So much for the 308 Win, lacking long range power.
That rifle and cartridge were made for each other. The gentle recoil, inherent accuracy, and surprising power of the cartridge played a large part in the ability of the shooter to take such an extreme shot, and be responsibly successful.
I have a spot saved for the right 308 Win. when I find one. At the front of my gun safe.
Kinda long winded I know and the only relevance it has to JB's excellent article is, ever time I read that article ( I reread the Big Three often) this memory jumps to the front of my mind. And then, I again 'love' the .308 and 'hate' that I don't own one
AF

Please excuse the digression folks;

The Southern Hemisphere has no relevence to the Northern counterpart. The earth is divided in quarters and the Tropic of Cancer runs througfh Wisconsin elevation where as the Tropic of Capricorn runs through Rockhampton in Queensland to the south.

Wisconsin gets snow, "Rocky" never will. The water flows down the toilet anti clock wise in the north and clockwise in the south. There is no rule pertaining to animal size I know of for the northern hemisphere that applies in the southern hemishpere.

FYI,

Moose, Mule Deer, White tail, Fallow, Red, Chital, Sambar, Elk, Hog and Rusa were all introduced into Australia and New Zealand during the first years of the 20th century and those that were not shot out, thrived with odd rumors of the lost few still in folklore from time to time.

The size of some animals in the Southern Hemisphere has been manipulated by man in order to tap into the tourist hunter dollars.

N.Z. reds for example are way larger than their native homelands in Europe or Australia due to the turbo charged breakfast cereals provided. You will notice that there is truck loads of video footage of monster stags but never are there any hinds in those same pics. mmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Time for me to butt out of this one.

AGW

Also aside: The biological theory that animsl grow larger further north from the equatoer is known as Bergman's Rule or Law, and in fact it is wrong.

Well, it applies to some temperate-zone animals. Whitetails, for instance, grow progressively larger the further north you go. This is to deal with colder winter temperatures; the larger bodies conserve heat better. The southern whitetails have relatively larger ears and tails to disperse heat.

But caribou, for instance, grow smaller the further north they are found. They are largest roughly along the 60th parallel of latitude, are smaller along the Arctic Circle, and smallest of all on the islands above Canada.

In the souhern hemisphere there are not as many large land masses that have hard winters. Other forces are at work. In southern Africa, for instance, the largest kudu are found in the north (Namibia, Zimbabwe, Northern Province of South Africa) while the further south you go, the smaller the bodies and horns.

JB

Great story, 338!

I hunt a sub species of Mule Deer called the Burro Deer. They are found in the Ironwood Deserts of the american south west. Temperatures rarely reach freezing here. The climate is mild enough to grow the most tender citrus. Summers run from 105-112 plus every day for at least five months of the year. Summer nights rarely get cooler than 85 degrees.
I've taken bucks every bit as large as those found in really cold climates. I've got friends who have killed bucks that weighed well over 300 lbs. on the hoof.
In otherwords, there are exceptions to every rule, including Bergman's. E

Bergman's rule is fairly accurate as a generalization. It is not guarenteed to apply to every species in every situation. It is a rule and nothing more.

There are a number of these such as Allen's rule that are equally general and yet, not absolute.

Species on mainland that are larger, on average, than 100 grams will be smaller than their island counterparts.

The reverse is true for mammals under 100 grams on mainland.

This is a rule too, not an absolute.

Brent

So, to tie this thread together. Do you have to use heavier bullets in your .308 as you travel North?

No a deer is a deer is a deer.

AGW

Unless of course they're one of those armor plated sambar deer...

Sambar are not armour plated. They are tenacious and run after being hit then hide in streams and underbrush. No one ever said they were armour plated until you did?

AGW

I'd say any deer that needs to be shot with a .458 & 500 grain Woodleighs must be armor plated.

Carefull, some of these gentlemen may cotton on to the fact that not all hunting is free range.
Regards, J Stuart

Not armour plated, wily and in very close country with a lot of country between each one.
Regards, J Stuart.

Oh you mean like elk. I guess I better sell my elk rifle and get a .458.

To be honest most of us shoot with much smaller calibres, with a minimum of .277 130 gr projectile and a case minimum of 51 mm.
I personally prefer my 7x57..........but .458 really does sound impressive.
The problem is that most only get to see the arse end through the trees, so some like to hedge their bets.
Regards, J Stuart.

I was mostly just giving AGW a hard time for saying how tough those sambar were on one page and on the next saying a deer is a deer is a deer.

Elk are the same way here - big, tenacious,hard to hunt, thick cover, etc. We've got idiots shooting them in the azz with cannons too.

Yes, but no matter what else, you do have all those big hairy nasties(bears) and there is absolutely nothing we have that can match that.
Have you ever noticed that the gentlemen with the cannons generally do not get to do much shooting.
Regards, J Stuart.

Exactly...

At least they enjoy themselves.

Kevin, Classic...LOL Tom

JS,
I already commented previously about the Aussie attitude to contained hunting and that it is largely illegal there. The culture here is very different where animals are both contained and provided for with food plots and other management tools to build up the trophy quality in order to generate higher incomes from these stock animals.

People here cannot be blamed for cirstumstances created through commerce. It is a different hunting culture and needs to be accepted for what it is.

There is plenty of free range naturally occuring trophies to be had in many states and not realistic to expect it in all states where populations are heavier and land masses small.

As to the armour plated statements, people are free to make them and we are also free to ignore or challenge them. I like challenge and welcome any questions or queries as it creates an opportunity to communicate and teach and sometimes, learn as well.


AGW

As you know we do have the same type of system here, it is called farming, only we do it with sheep and cattle.
I expect the dedicated hunters in the US feel as we do and prefer to hunt wild game, which is why we call ourselves hunters not killers.
Regards, J Stuart.

Ps, the armour plated comments were in jest I believe, although some would have everyone believe that sambar are indestructible, we both know they are not.

Sounds like another tastes great, Less filling argument to me. You would have to spend a good part of a life time before you could tell the difference between a 308 or a 30-06 game shooting. I myself have been loosing some sleep over what is going to be my next barrel for my Blaser R-93. I just may go with a 7.62 Nato. My departed Uncle shot nothing but for the the last 45 or so years of his life. I never warm up to either and as I get older, heck an either one will do and a 338 for some really heavy stuff if it keep you awake at night. Plus the 308 or 7.62 is going to be popular with a whole new generation of Varmit shooters when they return to walk the game fields of home.

You want armor plated, come to south arkansas and shoot these wild hogs. They have a armored shoulder plate that'll shock you. have killed several that upon skinning found smaller caliber rifle bullets like .243/.257 diameter and blackpowder bullets stopped dead! Less than 1 inch of penetration.

My first 308 was bought on impulse from a friend that bragged that it was the most accurate lightweight rifle he'd ever seen.

After a few trips to the range I found that I also was mesmerized by that rifle.

I killed a truck load of whitetail with that dang rifle and every one of them fell dead precisely where I shot them.

Yep... I became a BIG fan of the 308 and since then have had SEVERAL more lightweight 308 carbines and haven't had one yet that wouldn't shoot lights out and wasn't a pleasure to shoot.

It's not the do all end all cartridge but it's my favorite for ALL medium game and it's just so dang practical that any time one discusses medium game cartridges they seem to compare them to the 308.

I guess there's a good reason for that.

$bob$