I know you are a big fan of the 7x57 and I have all of your articles on the 7x57. We currently have 3 of the little jewels. One of the rifles is a 77 MK1 that has a very long throat. The rifle is exceptional as far as accuracy goes. It will shoot any factory load under an inch and some hand loads it throws into .375" ragged holes. The factory ammo chronys between 200 and 300fps slower than it does from our other rifles. Hand loads loaded all the way to max are about the same. Slow. The chamber isn't overly large. My guess is it has something to do with the long throat not allowing a normal pressure curve. The throat is so long that it isn't possible to start a bullet anywhere close to the lands because of the magazine length restiction. Powders I have tried in it are H4350,IMR4350,RL22,RL19,760,H414,H380 and probably a few more that I can't remember right off. The faster powders do seem to get closer to their repective velocities but still not what I am looking for.This furthers my belief that the low velocity is a product of the long throat. Because the rifle is so accurate I am very hesitent to mess with the barrel at all. Any ideals? Thanks, reflex264

I have an old well used M77 that is similar to yours. I had some old handloads made up for an M70 Fwt. that went 2875 fps with 140's. In the Ruger they were under 2700 fps. I just had to keep adding powder, it will go right at 3000 fps with 140's at 64000 psi. It also is long throated, but it doesn't affect accuracy. You can probably bump it way up with a little careful handloading.

I'm pretty sure Mule Deer wrote you could add IMR 4350 and stop at 2,800fps with a 140gr. bullet. 3,000fps sounds a wee bit fast for the 7X57.


Travis

Ah yeah 3K with a 140 is a bit agressive for a 275 Rigby, good speed for a 120 I'd guess though....

Dober

.275 Rigby. Damn Dober, you are old school....


Travis

Yeah, add more 4350 (of either kind) until the muzzle velocity gets up around 2800 with a 140.

Right now I am wondering how jstevens knows he is getting 3000 fps with 64000 psi with his 7x57 loads. Have they been pressure-tested or is the 64000 from QuickLoad or some other computer program?

I don't have a tested 7x57 load with a 140 grain bullet, but I do get 2864 fps at 56.6 KPSI with a 150 and H4350. My 7x57 is fairly long throated, and I load to .030" off the lands.

Depending on the bullet, 140's at 3K out of a 7x57 can't be impossible at reasonable pressures.

I've consistently hit 2875 fps (with great shot to shot consistency) out of a 20" M7 7mm08 using the 139 gr SP and 50 gr H4350 from MD's "Handloads that Work". Maybe my chrony reads that load funny, but it sure doesn't seem too "optimistic" with my other loads.

Given a bit larger case and a longer barrel, I can see 3K with the short bearing 139's as a top end load.

Then again, I strive for launching interlocks in the 2800 to 2900 range as things like WTD are often shot at ranges just beyond the powder burn.

FWIW,

GE

I have always been curious why so much attention is paid to velocity. I admit I don't experiment very much with reloading, just use the loads from the book and am satisfied. I start well below max and find a very accurate load with the bullet I intend to use and that's that. My 7x57 is loaded with a 175grNosler Partition (it was specified for that bullet when I had it built) and was intended for African plains game. The powder is IMR4350 which is also the major powder I use for literally everything. I know it's a couple of grains below max as that's where I usually end up (I,m not at home so don't have access to my records) with all my loads. I shot Kudu at ranges from 50 to 250 yds and they all dropped when hit properly. I don't own and have never shot a load over a chronograph so have absolutely no idea other than the book what the velocity was. I don't think the animals care and the holes in the paper I shoot are significently small enough to be proud of. Good nuff for me.

Well said. The 7 x 57 with 175 Partitions about a grain under max is a fine load. My wife is still using that load in a custom Mauser I put together for her the winter of '69, and she has access to more rifles than most women have ever even handled.

Wayne

The ideal with this rifle is to shoot a little flatter for the bean fields. Have 4350's on hand and will give it a whirl. WIth 175gr bullets the velocities are much closer to where they are supposed to be. I have been playing with 160gr partitions as well and would like to see them at least 2600fps. reflex264

Bean fields? That's what you're .264 is for.


Travis

Eleanor O'Connor was rather proficient with her 7x57 in the days when velocity was just sales pitch. It still is ???

JW

I will be using the .264 and a few more .264s testing them for a rifle builder. My son wants to carry the Ruger 7x57. Its not that it doesn't kill deer. He has probably shot 25 to 30 deer with this rifle. The shots in these fields get a little long. Most deer are shot past 300 yards. In order to get my trajectory scales like I want them I need about 250fps more than I have now. If it was just the general hunting this wouldn't be a issue. I would take this rifle with 175grs at 2450fps and go any where with it. reflex264

It's not the length of the throat, but the diameter of the throat that's causing your problem. The fact that the faster powders reduce the issue is another clue, as they will cause the bullet to opturate sooner, IE in the throat, and retaining more of the powder gas behind the bullet (where it belongs).

I'm just a newbie here, so if what I say is way off base, go ahead and laugh.

But I was thinking that you may want to try crimping your handloads with something like the Lee Factory Crimp Die. In theory, at least, with a firm crimp you should have pressure building to a higher level before the bullet exits the case, and the size of the throat becomes less of a factor.

Second, what do you think of using a 120-gr Nosler B-Tip at somewhere near 3000 fps? I took a look at it in a ballistics program and comparing the 140 gr at 2800 fps to the 120 gr at 3040 fps (Conley Precision Cartridges loads them to this velocity), the point blank range at +or- 3 inches is extended from 279 yards with the 140 to 297 yards with the 120.

This may not do you any good, but it is something to think about.

The 120BT is about the only bullet that this gun doesn't like. I have pushed the envelope with it a bit and it shoots 3-4 inch groups. It will throw 154SP, 139BTSP Hornady or 160gr Sierras into .75 or less. My thinking now is a 139BTSP or a 140 Ballistic tip. The crimping makes no difference in this rifle as far as velcity. Doesn't change a thing. When lab testing loads for the 45-70 and .450 Marlin the LFC didn't produce any kind of substantial gain in velociy although it did raise pressures. reflex264

If you want 250 fps more, get a .280

What I am talking about is just getting this one up to normal 7X57 speed. I do like the .280 and have hunted with one quite abit.reflex264

Reflex
I've GAINED 250fps (in a 30-06) by having the barrel shortened 1" at the chamber end, and recutting the chamber properly.
A chamber cast before "surgury" showed the throat was .3125 in diameter, the "post surgury" cast is .3085 in diameter. If the throat diameter is at bullet size the bullet acts as a plug to the gases, if the diameter is above bullet size the gases can blow past the bullet until it is in the lands.

Stop spinning your wheels, and get a chamber cast done and measured.

Hi reflex,

Here is my experience, FWIW. I currently have three 7x57s, all Rugers, one pre-MkII tanger, one MkII, and one #1A. I can pour a lot more powder in the tanger than the MkII. I assume there are differences in the throats, but I have not done any chamber casts. They both shoot well enough so I don't fret it. In fact, the MkII shoots unbelieveably well. The tanger will easily handle the max loads listed in Speer manual #13 and then some, whereas the same loads in the MkII are over max. The #1A seems to be somewhere in between.

I don't know what you gained by this post, but there it is.

-

I can get a lot closer to 280 velocities than that in my 7x57s. If one wants 250 fips more than one can get from a modern 7x57, I think one should step up to a 7 mag. Theres not a lot of difference in potential between a 7x57 and a 280 - some, but not a lot - not enough to see a big difference in the field.

-

I load the 140 gr. ballistic tip to 2800 in my M70 Featherweight. I use W-760, Remington brass and Winchester WLR primers. I have loaded that bullet to 2880 FPS but it was about 105 degrees that day and bolt lift was a bit sticky. Not much, but just enough to notice. That's faste niugh for any hunting I'll do with that rifle.
Paul B.

Interesting approach...
Did Al Siegrist do the work for you?
Stop by sometime and I'll show you some really NEAT old Rem 722's I've policed up lately. All are accurate.

Don

Red,

I'm continually happy with the excellent accuracy out of my MkII in 257 Roberts.

Don

Don
The slophole was done by some hack on the PA/NY border
The cast chop rechamber was done by Bruce at Flint-&-Frizzen in Clarkston. He had to remove the inch, just to clean up the throat area.
Bruce has been my "go-to" smith for 30+ years. Since I moved "up north" Al is my backup gunny, in case of emergencies.
Both of them apprenticed under Bob Snapp, so you know that both of them know what their doing (and they respect each others work)

DMB,

I've owned and shot a lot of Rugers. Only one of them didn't shoot somewhere between excellent and friggin' fantastic. The one that didn't shoot well was a Mini-30, and that was probably because I was loading 0.308" bullets in it.

To be honest, I really don't know what level of accuracy my MkII 7x57 is capable of because I always just shoot it from my hands, not tucked into bags and a benchrest. I know it shoots where I point it.

-

What is the love affair of trying to turn 7mm Mausers into 7 Rem Mags?

I just don't get it...

in 7mm, I have both the 7 x 57 and the 7 Rem Mag... I hunt with the 7 x 57s, and I have the 7 Rem Mag, because it was a Savage 116 with a price that was too good to pass up on at the time...

Seafire, I don't think it is so much a case of trying to make a 7x57 Mauser into a 7MM Rem. Mag., but just more a case of bringing the 7x57 into the modern era. Don't get me wrong, the 7x57 does a darn good job as is. However, current factory and most load data are geared to rifles from another century. Those loads are, to me anyway, the equivialent of buying a brand new Corvette shutting down two or four cylinders for whatever silly reoson one might do so. I feel the same way about the 30-06 and .35 Whelen, both of which are also underloaded by the factories. I once had the chance to buy a nearly mint 1895 Winchester that had been rebored to the .35 Whelen. I certainly would not have wanted to use my current handloads for the Whelen in that old rifle, nor would I feel safe in some of the 1903 Springfields I've seen that were converted. However, I do feel that my FN mauser (J.C.Higgins M50) that was made into a 7x57 as well as my Ruger #1 and Winchester M70 Featherweight are more that capable of handling somewhat more powerful loads than are found in the manuals ans in factory ammo.
Maybe the engine analogy wasn't the best I could think of. Think of a young person with the genetics of being a great athlete. he works out and trains and reaches his full potential. Consider that same person, but who does not train and is still a fairly decent athlete, but never reaches his full potential. The 7x57, and the 30-06 and .35 Whelen are all athletes like number two.
I would not feel handicapped hunting with a 7x57 and factory ammo. I would feel better equipped if I was hunting my somewhat more powerful handloads.
Paul B.

It didn't/dosn's sound (to me anyway) like the OP is trying to turn 1 of his 7x57's into a Magnum, but is wanting to bring it up to NORMAL 7x57 velocities, just like his others produce.

If your 7Mag was only producing 7x57 Mauser velocities, and you were wondering how to correct it, how would you feel about being accused of trying to turn it into a 7mm Ultra?

Just read a posting over on AR where Bob Snapp is accepting some Martini work. I had thought that he stopped doing custom work.

When I asked Bob if he would work on my Ruger #3, he said he would rather not, and that Martini work is his preferred type of work. Then he handed me his personal 257 Roberts on a Cadet action. I had trouble not drooling all over it. That was right after he showed me the ACGG guild rifle for that year - a spiffy Dakota model 10 with lots of pretty bells and whistles added. That was two years ago IIRC.

-

Using the Corvette analogy to the 7x57 is probably valid but begs the question. Why the REASON. I have a Mustang and have owned MANY fast sportscars over the years but on none of these have I EVER driven to the redline. The speed limit has always been adequate for me. Different strokes.

The throat is not over diameter. Rather this chamber is cut like a Weatherby. Freebore almost like it was done on purpose. Just to make sure everyone knows I am not trying to turn it into a 7mag. I have plenty of screemers for that task. Book loads in this rifle are way to slow. I finally did get some loads with RL19 sending 139 BTSPs out at 2669fps. I can live with that and its shooting them into little bitty groups. If someone at some time did take a throating reamer to it they may have been seating 175gr RN bullets out as far as the magazine box would allow. The rifle is great other than low velocities and I doubt I will do the barrel. Matt layed claim to it after shooting his second buck with it when he was still in high school. He took his first 8pt with it. I am planning on working with H4350 some more to see what happens. reflex264

Reflex stay w/that RL19 and keep adding powder till you get to 2800fps.It's really pretty easy and not dangerous in a modern gun. powdr

For the record, I used a pressure trace on mine, as does Denton, and our results seem about the same. I have shot several thousand of these, and you will also find 2850-2900 fps loads for the 7-08, so not much reason to assume pressure would be any higher in a 7x57 with some freebore.

I suppose I could come up with some witticism like, "Because I can." but that wouldn't answer the question "Why?" I too have owned a few speedy vehicles during my mispent youth and like you usually stayed within the speed limit. However, there have been times when that excess power came in handy, like getting out of the way of some idiot that failed to yeild or some old geezer crawling along on a mountain road at 25 MPH when the speed limit was 45 MPH.
I think the added power over factory 7x57 Mauser rounds is a necessity as while most of the time, my shots on deer will come at reasonable ranges. However, situations do arise where a longer shot must be taken to bring an animal that has been wounded and is getting away. The longest shot I ever had to make on a deer was 427 paces. My hunting partner shot a deer way too far back and I was the only one in the clear to take the shot. The rifle that time just happened be a .308, but that fact is irrelevant. The power isn't needed for the ordinary, however for the out of the ordinary situtations, it can come in might handy.
Paul B.

Ask and you shall receive on the Ask the Gunwriters Forum. What the [bleep] are we still talking about?


Travis

If you hold that a modern 7x57 in good condition ought to be run at 51 KPSI, then you ought to do the same for your 270 or 30-06.

Add powder like MD said. Take it to 2800...then you're near enough max.

Whats the love affair with some people that want to run everything at 3/4's safe potential? I just don't get it. The OP hasn't stated a desire to go near 7mmRM velocities in the 7x57. WTF is up with that.

Well all the "usual suspects" have to show up and ask "why someone wants to turn a 7x57 in to a 7mmRM?" because they want more than 2500fps with a 140 bullet in a 7x57. Then all the usual comments like "would an animal know the difference?" should be made, along with the typical "in the field what's the real difference in the 'last' 100fps?" These things must be said in any thread regarding velocity.

What?

Yep boys the Ruger 7x57 with 154 Hornadys that run 2650 or so from the other rifles launches them at 2400-2450. I still haven't determined if the throat was original or someone took a throating reamer to it. In no way am I trying to turn the old boy into a 7mag or even a .280 for that matter. If I get time latter today I am going to work up a little hotter and see what the CHE numbers are. reflex264