Hi, I'm only looking to guns for self-defense in a SHTF scenario. Would a 20 gauge be just as good as a 12 gauge for self-defense? I'm considering the 20 gauge because of the weight-factor carrying it on my back for miles and miles along with 70-80 lbs worth of gear on my person or in my pack. Thanks.
Shotgun is a home base weapon. If you mobile, think 22LR (foraging) and a serious battle rifle (AR-15, AK-47, etc.).
Here is a good review: http://mouseguns.com/compare.htm
BMT
Here is a good review: http://mouseguns.com/compare.htm
BMT
Good advice...
But to answer your question, I'd go 12 gauge. Not much heavier, a little more horsepower, and probably more ammo out there for it than a 20 gauge.
Not much is going to take a big dose of #4 buck from a 12 gauge and walk away from it. With the right choke tube, thats a legitimate 60 yard load on critters. I'd probably push it farther in "Social Situations" Somebody at 100 yards would have a real bad day on the recieving end of it
But to answer your question, I'd go 12 gauge. Not much heavier, a little more horsepower, and probably more ammo out there for it than a 20 gauge.
Not much is going to take a big dose of #4 buck from a 12 gauge and walk away from it. With the right choke tube, thats a legitimate 60 yard load on critters. I'd probably push it farther in "Social Situations" Somebody at 100 yards would have a real bad day on the recieving end of it
Thank you so much. I'll go with the benelli M4 then. I don't want a bunch of guns, just one, and with that, high capacity, and really not much need to practice. Saves money in the long run. I will be taking up bow hunting. We have a FREE bow range here.
I think you need to figure out what you're trying to accomplish a bit more.
Bears? What kind of bears? If it's grizzlies, take a can of bear spray instead. It's lighter, quicker to get into action, and probably more effective than a shotgun. If it's black bears, why are you worried about it?
Humans? Personally I would pack some sort of handgun, smaller and more portable than a shotgun. If someone ever tries to jump you, you'll probably have the shotgun leaning against a tree 20 feet away. It won't be in a belt holster. But just don't think that a handgun is good grizz defense, though.
If it's really grizzly bears, forget the advice about the AR-15s. And forget about using #4 shot at 100 yards. If a person or bear notices you're shooting them, they could get angry. And suppose you killed someone at 100 yards. Try explaining to the judge why they were a threat justifying lethal force.
Perhaps you should explain a little more about the perceived threats you are trying to counter.
Bears? What kind of bears? If it's grizzlies, take a can of bear spray instead. It's lighter, quicker to get into action, and probably more effective than a shotgun. If it's black bears, why are you worried about it?
Humans? Personally I would pack some sort of handgun, smaller and more portable than a shotgun. If someone ever tries to jump you, you'll probably have the shotgun leaning against a tree 20 feet away. It won't be in a belt holster. But just don't think that a handgun is good grizz defense, though.
If it's really grizzly bears, forget the advice about the AR-15s. And forget about using #4 shot at 100 yards. If a person or bear notices you're shooting them, they could get angry. And suppose you killed someone at 100 yards. Try explaining to the judge why they were a threat justifying lethal force.
Perhaps you should explain a little more about the perceived threats you are trying to counter.
Mmmmm.... I'm not too fond of the idea of using any kind of shotgun on bears. No actual experience to draw on, but just from what I know about bears and shotguns, you are unlikely to penetrate the gristle shield they have around their chest, possibly even with a slug.
Best bear gun I know of is the 45-70. The Guide Gun is built specifically for that purpose.
Humans? That's another story. The ka-ching-ching of a pump shotgun is the most intimidating sound I know of. At close range, humans do not survive being shot with anything more nasty than a #6 pheasant load.
For providing food, it's hard to beat a shotgun. But I wouldn't worry about that. In dire times, there isn't enough wild game around to give everyone more than a small nibble.
I have a 12 and my wife has a 20. I've found that I prefer her 20. It's lighter to pack, and more nimble. Yes, there is a difference in power and pattern density. But you can do about anything a 12 will do with a 20 magnum, if you want the extra power.
For rats and cats, it's hard to beat a Ruger 10/22. It doesn't have a world of power, but I'd sure hate to be shot with one. It will suffice for personal defense.
Best bear gun I know of is the 45-70. The Guide Gun is built specifically for that purpose.
Humans? That's another story. The ka-ching-ching of a pump shotgun is the most intimidating sound I know of. At close range, humans do not survive being shot with anything more nasty than a #6 pheasant load.
For providing food, it's hard to beat a shotgun. But I wouldn't worry about that. In dire times, there isn't enough wild game around to give everyone more than a small nibble.
I have a 12 and my wife has a 20. I've found that I prefer her 20. It's lighter to pack, and more nimble. Yes, there is a difference in power and pattern density. But you can do about anything a 12 will do with a 20 magnum, if you want the extra power.
For rats and cats, it's hard to beat a Ruger 10/22. It doesn't have a world of power, but I'd sure hate to be shot with one. It will suffice for personal defense.
They all shoot the same size shot the same speed. The only question is how big of a payload do you want to deliver.
A 28 ga shoots the same buckshot at the same speed a 10 ga does just less of it.
Mike
A 28 ga shoots the same buckshot at the same speed a 10 ga does just less of it.
Mike
Forget buckshot if you are really concerned with bears, and for a outdoor situation where the ranges could be longer in a SD situation, slugs are the answer you are looking for but consider the bear spray as well.
Jeepers �
Not sure what sort of SHTF scenario you�re envisioning. For home defense and very close range urban fighting, the 12ga shotgun is very good. Once ranges get beyond 30 yards, the lethality of the 12ga with buckshot takes a sharp dive. Beyond 40 yards, slugs are needed to put the hurtin on.
And a shotgun takes more practice than you realize. They don�t hose down the entire zip code like everyone thinks; the patter inside 25 yards is rather tight. For defense against black bears, a 12ga slug would be quite adequate. For defense against grizzlies, you�ll be griz skat in no time.
For hunting of small game, it�s truly excellent provided you match the load to the game.
As for something to carry with an 80 pound pack on your back, it�s just about the worst choice imaginable. Sure you can get a 7 pound 12ga, but each shell will have at least 1oz of lead in it. Just 16 of those and you�ve added a whole pound to your pack. With a .223, you could carry well over a hundred rounds without any trouble.
I�ve also found that those who talk about grabbing a gun and a backpack with the SHTF, haven�t really thought things through. Not trying to be a jerk here; but your post really reinforces that observation. If you do your homework on failures of modern societies in the last 50 or more years, you�d see that the grab a pack and head for the hills scenario (while crying �Wolverines�) really doesn�t work unless you�re Patrick Swayze. Handguns are of much more use because they can be on you when you need them. They don�t call attention (like � Hey, who�s the guy with the Benelli M4 walking down the highway? Let�s arrest him or shoot him).
If there is a failure of society ( and from time to time there are), then your best weapon is stocking up on food, fuel and having a good level head on your shoulders. The grab a gun and pack routine makes me think you need to do some work on the latter.
Not sure what sort of SHTF scenario you�re envisioning. For home defense and very close range urban fighting, the 12ga shotgun is very good. Once ranges get beyond 30 yards, the lethality of the 12ga with buckshot takes a sharp dive. Beyond 40 yards, slugs are needed to put the hurtin on.
And a shotgun takes more practice than you realize. They don�t hose down the entire zip code like everyone thinks; the patter inside 25 yards is rather tight. For defense against black bears, a 12ga slug would be quite adequate. For defense against grizzlies, you�ll be griz skat in no time.
For hunting of small game, it�s truly excellent provided you match the load to the game.
As for something to carry with an 80 pound pack on your back, it�s just about the worst choice imaginable. Sure you can get a 7 pound 12ga, but each shell will have at least 1oz of lead in it. Just 16 of those and you�ve added a whole pound to your pack. With a .223, you could carry well over a hundred rounds without any trouble.
I�ve also found that those who talk about grabbing a gun and a backpack with the SHTF, haven�t really thought things through. Not trying to be a jerk here; but your post really reinforces that observation. If you do your homework on failures of modern societies in the last 50 or more years, you�d see that the grab a pack and head for the hills scenario (while crying �Wolverines�) really doesn�t work unless you�re Patrick Swayze. Handguns are of much more use because they can be on you when you need them. They don�t call attention (like � Hey, who�s the guy with the Benelli M4 walking down the highway? Let�s arrest him or shoot him).
If there is a failure of society ( and from time to time there are), then your best weapon is stocking up on food, fuel and having a good level head on your shoulders. The grab a gun and pack routine makes me think you need to do some work on the latter.
+1 what KevinGibson posted. Do some people really think that there will be a switch pulled and everyone will throw a pack on the back, tote a rifle and head for the forrest? And then what? Its not 1781 anymore.
Some good advice here and KevinGibson hit it on the head along with others. If you're looking for a gun to backback with you're better off with a handgun or carbine style rifle such as a Marlin leveraction in say 44 mag. I love shotguns and they are good protection in limited situations. For those eventhough the 12 has a bigger payload, I like the 20 ga for weight and recoil reasons.
For SHTF situations, I again agree with Kevin that a cool head is better then all the guns and ammo you may have. Again though, I would go the handgun/carbine setup.
I would really think this out before you start spending money
For SHTF situations, I again agree with Kevin that a cool head is better then all the guns and ammo you may have. Again though, I would go the handgun/carbine setup.
I would really think this out before you start spending money
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
Bears? What kind of bears? If it's grizzlies, take a can of bear spray instead. It's lighter, quicker to get into action, and probably more effective than a shotgun. If it's black bears, why are you worried about it?
In order for bear spray to work the bear has to be on top of you.......with a shotgun you can be a ways off.
And use slugs, the heavier the better.
well, there's bears and bears.... and there's slugs and slugs....
if you're living out of a backpack, keeping a low profile, and using your head, a 12 ga. single is a lightweight and handy implement for personal security...
it's not the gun to take on the world with, but taking on the world is probably best left to those who have resources greater than a backpack would contain....
with a handful of brenneke slugs and a handful of 000 buck you could offer a double handful of reasons to be left alone...
i know of a couple of guys, anyway, who have all of the cool rifles, handguns, and equipment, yet still keep a few of the nef type 12 ga. singles around their places and vehicles... a buttstock sleeve w/ a few rounds in each one.....
if you're living out of a backpack, keeping a low profile, and using your head, a 12 ga. single is a lightweight and handy implement for personal security...
it's not the gun to take on the world with, but taking on the world is probably best left to those who have resources greater than a backpack would contain....
with a handful of brenneke slugs and a handful of 000 buck you could offer a double handful of reasons to be left alone...
i know of a couple of guys, anyway, who have all of the cool rifles, handguns, and equipment, yet still keep a few of the nef type 12 ga. singles around their places and vehicles... a buttstock sleeve w/ a few rounds in each one.....
Guide gun in .45-70. You're welcome.
I've decided on a .45 Kimber ultra carry II for shtf for traveling in city, Benelli m1, m2 7+1 etc for home at the door defense, and ak 47 762 for all else. I have 600 ft 550 paracord (3 lbs), blastmaster firesteel (1 lbs), katadyn water filter + replacement (2 lbs), ka-bar cutlass knife (4 lbs), sog s66 multitool (2 lbs), marmot thor tent (8 lbs), thermarest prolite 4 (2 lbs), [-20 sleeping bag yet to be purchased] (4 lbs), lint (l lbs), zipties (l lbs), G7000 mysteryranch pack (8 lbs), SAS book (1 lbs), medical supplies/pills (4 lbs), woolen clothes (8 lbs), cooking pan or pot (5 lbs), compass or gps (4 lbs).
That's pushing 60 lbs including the pack. Those three firearms +ammo will add 25 or so pounds. Add the bow and arrows and I'm gonna be weighed down. I Could string along a dog equipped with a dogpack or a wife to lessen the load.
In Colorado, we only have black bears, but they Could migrate from Wyoming. It's possible.
That's pushing 60 lbs including the pack. Those three firearms +ammo will add 25 or so pounds. Add the bow and arrows and I'm gonna be weighed down. I Could string along a dog equipped with a dogpack or a wife to lessen the load.
In Colorado, we only have black bears, but they Could migrate from Wyoming. It's possible.
Quote
compass or gps (4 lbs).
You might be able to find a lighter GPS, to make room for some trail food.
denton
"...you are unlikely to penetrate the gristle shield they have around their chest, possibly even with a slug."
After well over a hundred bears skinned, blacks, Kodiak browns, mainland browns and interior grizzlies, I have yet to see a "gristle shield." Bears are actually pretty delicately constructed from the bone standpoint. They are hugely muscled.
My lone experience with slugs on a Kodiak brown bear was quite impressive. Plain old lead Foster slugs penetrated more than half lengthwise on an 8 1/2' bear and left. One broke several ribs as it skated along the outside of the ribcage.
art
"...you are unlikely to penetrate the gristle shield they have around their chest, possibly even with a slug."
After well over a hundred bears skinned, blacks, Kodiak browns, mainland browns and interior grizzlies, I have yet to see a "gristle shield." Bears are actually pretty delicately constructed from the bone standpoint. They are hugely muscled.
My lone experience with slugs on a Kodiak brown bear was quite impressive. Plain old lead Foster slugs penetrated more than half lengthwise on an 8 1/2' bear and left. One broke several ribs as it skated along the outside of the ribcage.
art
Well, dang... If you've disassembled one or more, then the information I was given is incorrect. Actual data trumps about everything else. Thank you for the catch!
denton
No problem, I am certain you are the type that would prefer being corrected on bad info... I posted a picture of a Kodiak bear scapula from OlBlue's bear. In sunlight the silhouette of a knife could be plainly seen through the bone.
Way over-rated for hard... just that heavy muscle thang...
art
No problem, I am certain you are the type that would prefer being corrected on bad info... I posted a picture of a Kodiak bear scapula from OlBlue's bear. In sunlight the silhouette of a knife could be plainly seen through the bone.
Way over-rated for hard... just that heavy muscle thang...
art
I have to disagree with some on this subject..For bear protection I wouldn;t even consider a slug..I would definately opt for a 10 or 12 ga. preferably 3.5" or 3." chambers respectively, loaded with number 1 or double 0 buck...successive hits of buckshot are more than a living body can react to thus the reason buckshot is so deadly up close and personal...I have seen a Leopard take slugs and just keep coming, that leads me to believe a bear could do the same, but buckshot always puts them under. Also I have shot several deer with slugs and was not impressed with their performance.
BTW, bears are pretty soft animals and penetration on bears does not require a heck of a lot and I also have no clue about any "gristle shield", I think pigs have that, not bears, but putting out a bears lights could be tough if he was pumped full of adrenaline.
All that said, I am still more comfortable with a big bore rifle such as a 375 H&H,or 416 Rem. or Ruger when it comes to stopping big nasty animals, and I personally prefer to leave the shotgun for home defence...
BTW, bears are pretty soft animals and penetration on bears does not require a heck of a lot and I also have no clue about any "gristle shield", I think pigs have that, not bears, but putting out a bears lights could be tough if he was pumped full of adrenaline.
All that said, I am still more comfortable with a big bore rifle such as a 375 H&H,or 416 Rem. or Ruger when it comes to stopping big nasty animals, and I personally prefer to leave the shotgun for home defence...
You're going to look very ridiculous, and feel worse, traipsing through the woods with all that detritus and no food, especially the three firearms and a bow. And forget the ka-bar unless you want to make a low budget movie.
I would not worry about grizzly bears coming over the border from Wyoming. You're in more danger from getting hit by a meteor from outer space.
By the way, what's an SAS book?
I would not worry about grizzly bears coming over the border from Wyoming. You're in more danger from getting hit by a meteor from outer space.
By the way, what's an SAS book?
Originally Posted by KevinGibson
I�ve also found that those who talk about grabbing a gun and a backpack with the SHTF, haven�t really thought things through.
Amen.
Originally Posted by Jeepers
Hi, I'm only looking to guns for self-defense in a SHTF scenario. Would a 20 gauge be just as good as a 12 gauge for self-defense? I'm considering the 20 gauge because of the weight-factor carrying it on my back for miles and miles along with 70-80 lbs worth of gear on my person or in my pack. Thanks.
Hmmm...good answers here for the most part. A real breakdown of society??? Probably not real likely but anything is certainly possible. The next to last thing I'd want to do is leave my home. If I had to do that, I'd want to load up my pickup with a good supply of fresh water & as much fishing/hunting/camping gear/fuel/supplies/tools...(toilet paper)..
etc. that it could carry. Along with my travel trailer if possible. I'd try to let my hunting buddies know I was taking off & probably conspire with them on the best place to go & if it was that bad, band together & head out. I doubt I'd ever grab a pack & a gun & take off though. If it got that bad I'd probably end up dying, defending my home...12 ga. #4 buckshot for close in (It'll kill any bear or human I've ever seen)& an accurate centerfire for anything past the shotguns range. Prolly my .257 bee with the almighty 100 gr. TSX...
Die defending home and familly. A note on GPS,post SHTF will it be dead weight ? Do you think ole big bro will allow acess? I wonder if people who geocashe Have thought about that.
Originally Posted by atkinson
I have to disagree with some on this subject..For bear protection I wouldn;t even consider a slug..I would definately opt for a 10 or 12 ga. preferably 3.5" or 3." chambers respectively, loaded with number 1 or double 0 buck...successive hits of buckshot are more than a living body can react to thus the reason buckshot is so deadly up close and personal...I have seen a Leopard take slugs and just keep coming, that leads me to believe a bear could do the same, but buckshot always puts them under. Also I have shot several deer with slugs and was not impressed with their performance.
There is no way in heck that that buckshot would kill quicker than a slug......no way!
I cant imagine anyone shooting a deer with a slug and saying they were not impressed with the results.
I have a ton of experience with slugs and I will tell you there is not much in the way of game that a slug wont take down.
Originally Posted by Tom264
Originally Posted by atkinson
I have to disagree with some on this subject..For bear protection I wouldn;t even consider a slug..I would definately opt for a 10 or 12 ga. preferably 3.5" or 3." chambers respectively, loaded with number 1 or double 0 buck...successive hits of buckshot are more than a living body can react to thus the reason buckshot is so deadly up close and personal...I have seen a Leopard take slugs and just keep coming, that leads me to believe a bear could do the same, but buckshot always puts them under. Also I have shot several deer with slugs and was not impressed with their performance.
There is no way in heck that that buckshot would kill quicker than a slug......no way!
I cant imagine anyone shooting a deer with a slug and saying they were not impressed with the results.
I have a ton of experience with slugs and I will tell you there is not much in the way of game that a slug wont take down.
Even within 40 yds. with a full choke? I'm not sayin or even suggesting a slug wouldn't work...In fact it might be the best choice for the first round, but if I had a MAD bear/leopard/human heading towards me with bad intentions I'd prefer buckshot ANY day. More room for error.
even 000 buck is pretty weak medicine without multiple hits... a heavy leather coat can pretty well stop 4 buck past 50 yards... penetration may occur, but what little energy it carries is pretty well depleted...
i hear of many guys claiming great success on coyotes with 4 buck... hunt with them and they have a list of excuses, in my experience...
a very good friend had an 870 wingmaster with some super choke or other... claimed it shot like a rifle... after he emptied his gun at a coyote without any evidence of a hit i went to the machine shed and got out an old paint bucket... at 40 yds with one shot fired the bucket suffered one grazing hit from a 3" plated, buffered load of 4 buck.....
if i were shooting buckshot for defensive use i'd severely restrict my range, use 000 buck, and pattern the load/gun combo... my max range would be limited to where i could regularly place 4-5 holes on a paper plate sized target.....
i hear of many guys claiming great success on coyotes with 4 buck... hunt with them and they have a list of excuses, in my experience...
a very good friend had an 870 wingmaster with some super choke or other... claimed it shot like a rifle... after he emptied his gun at a coyote without any evidence of a hit i went to the machine shed and got out an old paint bucket... at 40 yds with one shot fired the bucket suffered one grazing hit from a 3" plated, buffered load of 4 buck.....
if i were shooting buckshot for defensive use i'd severely restrict my range, use 000 buck, and pattern the load/gun combo... my max range would be limited to where i could regularly place 4-5 holes on a paper plate sized target.....
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
Originally Posted by Tom264
Originally Posted by atkinson
I have to disagree with some on this subject..For bear protection I wouldn;t even consider a slug..I would definately opt for a 10 or 12 ga. preferably 3.5" or 3." chambers respectively, loaded with number 1 or double 0 buck...successive hits of buckshot are more than a living body can react to thus the reason buckshot is so deadly up close and personal...I have seen a Leopard take slugs and just keep coming, that leads me to believe a bear could do the same, but buckshot always puts them under. Also I have shot several deer with slugs and was not impressed with their performance.
There is no way in heck that that buckshot would kill quicker than a slug......no way!
I cant imagine anyone shooting a deer with a slug and saying they were not impressed with the results.
I have a ton of experience with slugs and I will tell you there is not much in the way of game that a slug wont take down.
Even within 40 yds. with a full choke? I'm not sayin or even suggesting a slug wouldn't work...In fact it might be the best choice for the first round, but if I had a MAD bear/leopard/human heading towards me with bad intentions I'd prefer buckshot ANY day. More room for error.
And thats why I like my semiauto slug guns, you can crack 5 shots off quicker than anybody can imagine......just listen to them during deer season once.
Originally Posted by johnw
if i were shooting buckshot for defensive use i'd severely restrict my range, use 000 buck, and pattern the load/gun combo... my max range would be limited to where i could regularly place 4-5 holes on a paper plate sized target.....
No arguement here...
#4 bucksot will generally give me at least 3 hits at 40 with a modified choke...with regular steel #4 birdshot it actually patterns tighter than my full choke. I've never tried 000...always figured more was better, could be wrong though...wouldn't be the first time.
Originally Posted by Jeepers
I've decided on a .45 Kimber ultra carry II for shtf for traveling in city, Benelli m1, m2 7+1 etc for home at the door defense, and ak 47 762 for all else. I have 600 ft 550 paracord (3 lbs), blastmaster firesteel (1 lbs), katadyn water filter + replacement (2 lbs), ka-bar cutlass knife (4 lbs), sog s66 multitool (2 lbs), marmot thor tent (8 lbs), thermarest prolite 4 (2 lbs), [-20 sleeping bag yet to be purchased] (4 lbs), lint (l lbs), zipties (l lbs), G7000 mysteryranch pack (8 lbs), SAS book (1 lbs), medical supplies/pills (4 lbs), woolen clothes (8 lbs), cooking pan or pot (5 lbs), compass or gps (4 lbs).
That's pushing 60 lbs including the pack. Those three firearms +ammo will add 25 or so pounds. Add the bow and arrows and I'm gonna be weighed down. I Could string along a dog equipped with a dogpack or a wife to lessen the load.
In Colorado, we only have black bears, but they Could migrate from Wyoming. It's possible.
That's pushing 60 lbs including the pack. Those three firearms +ammo will add 25 or so pounds. Add the bow and arrows and I'm gonna be weighed down. I Could string along a dog equipped with a dogpack or a wife to lessen the load.
In Colorado, we only have black bears, but they Could migrate from Wyoming. It's possible.
Jeepers:
It would be real easy to make fun of all this, but I'm going to restrain myself.
You're not being anywhere near rational, friend. You've got some idea that S will HTF all at once and in the uproar of the moment, all the roads will be blocked with panicky city-folk and you'll just throw all that crap on your back and hike into hills to live off the land.
It doesn't work like that. S doesn't HTF all at once. (Unless it's thermonuclear war, and if it's that, you might as well just shoot yourself in the head.) Whatever breakdown you think may happen in society would happen over months, if not years. Plenty of time to drive to where you want to go.
You want to prepare now for SHTF? Buy a couple of acres in the mountains. Park a trailer or build a small cabin on it. Put in a well. Clear some of it in preparation for planting vegetables. Buy a subscription to Mother Earth News.
And as a back-up plan, marry a Canadian woman.
You will be better off and better prepared.
- Tom
Quote
if i were shooting buckshot for defensive use i'd severely restrict my range, use 000 buck, and pattern the load/gun combo... my max range would be limited to where i could regularly place 4-5 holes on a paper plate sized target.....
actually, if i'm shooting buckshot, it's only because i can't get my hands on decent slug loads...
count me as a fan of the brenneke classic 12 ga.
any time.. any where... any thing....
I've killed several deer with the Winchester super-x 1 oz foster type slug load. Great for deer, but I gave the coup-de-gras to a small buck from about two feet away. The 12 gauge slug went in, shattered his vertebrea just below his head, and did not exit. Again small buck, total penetration maybe 6-7 inches including the back bone. Now I believe real world experience trumps all, and if you someone else has had a better experience with these type of soft slugs then have at it. But that experience nixed the slugs for me in bear country.
A slug at maximum speed hitting a large bone and stopping is not that bad. I have found a number of slugs under the hide on several moose shot on the local military bases during their special hunts. Clearly poachers are not getting the kinds of results they hope for.
In the case of bears at very close range having a slug would not bother me. Having a wildass idea that SHTF thinking like this is not funny, would bother me...
In the case of bears at very close range having a slug would not bother me. Having a wildass idea that SHTF thinking like this is not funny, would bother me...
i would not elect to use a foster type slug for anything much tougher than a deer...
Originally Posted by johnw
i would not elect to use a foster type slug for anything much tougher than a deer...
Thankfully there is much better choices in shotgun slugs nowadays.
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
No arguement here... #4 bucksot will generally give me at least 3 hits at 40 with a modified choke...with regular steel #4 birdshot it actually patterns tighter than my full choke. I've never tried 000...always figured more was better, could be wrong though...wouldn't be the first time.
#4 bucksot will generally give me at least 3 hits at 40 with a modified choke...with regular steel #4 birdshot it actually patterns tighter than my full choke. I've never tried 000...always figured more was better, could be wrong though...wouldn't be the first time. Shotguns with buckshot start to drop off in the power/penetration department severely past 25-30 yards. Defensive shots past 25 yards, rarely result in a bad guy dropping. Inside of that range, stopping an aggressor is almost assured.
If you need to reach out past 25 yards, it's best to go wtih slugs. And if you're going to need to use slugs a lot, you're much better off having a rifle.
To each his own, if I can't have a rifle then it will be double 0 buck for me for stopping dangerous up close, and I base that on stopping and seeing several animals stopped including Lion and Leopard..I have absolutly no use for slugs, but anyone that wants to use slugs is fine with me.
My good friend, the late George Hoffman of .416 fame and an old time African PH, who wrote the book A Country Boy In Africa, loved the shotgun full of 00 buck shot for stopping any animal short of Rhino and Elephant for up close confrontations, and he used that gun for over 40 years, stopped more than a few Leopard and Lions in charge situations. A male African Lion is a tougher animal than a bear IMO.
Bottom line with me is a a shot gun works best on birds.
My good friend, the late George Hoffman of .416 fame and an old time African PH, who wrote the book A Country Boy In Africa, loved the shotgun full of 00 buck shot for stopping any animal short of Rhino and Elephant for up close confrontations, and he used that gun for over 40 years, stopped more than a few Leopard and Lions in charge situations. A male African Lion is a tougher animal than a bear IMO.
Bottom line with me is a a shot gun works best on birds.
I agree with Kevin and atkinson.
Shotguns, in trained hands are great tools.
However, I like shotguns for defense becuase range is limited.
Every shot has a grand jury following behind it.
Most of us cannot get away with 100 yard "Defensive" shots.
BMT
Shotguns, in trained hands are great tools.
However, I like shotguns for defense becuase range is limited.
Every shot has a grand jury following behind it.
Most of us cannot get away with 100 yard "Defensive" shots.
BMT
Could consolidate and use that 5lb. frying pan for bear defense as well.
Travis
Travis
Again, I'd have to vote against the frying pan. When I was a Paramedic, I treated a gentleman who had a spat with his significant other (in this case, another gentleman), and the significant other BROKE a 5lb cast iron frying pan over his head. He was instantly stopped, but when he got up, he was ready to scratch the others eyes out:)
Well, I can't speak from personal experience. But, I know I've seen more than one cartoon that involved a frying pan for personal defense. It appears to work on everything from people, to wolves, to bears. The tremendous Chinese gong sound as it strikes, is almost as intimidating as the racking of a shotgun.
I'm just thinking we should try to find some versatility for a 5lb frying pan.
LMAO from your story Kevin. That "fella" had a pretty tough skull...
Travis
I'm just thinking we should try to find some versatility for a 5lb frying pan.
LMAO from your story Kevin. That "fella" had a pretty tough skull...
Travis
There's a whol lot more emperical "loony tunes" data than my one anecdote; therefore I will have to concede that the frying pan is a viable defensive tool:)
Good to see you have an open mind.
Travis
Travis
Uhhhhhh.......... Might want to ask Timothy Turdwell how that frying pan thingy works for bear defense...
"No actual experience to draw on, but just from what I know about bears and shotguns, you are unlikely to penetrate the gristle shield they have around their chest, possibly even with a slug."
Well there are slugs and there are SLUGS. I have killed black bears very reliably with Rottweil-Brenneke original slugs, and they gave me very good penetration- like breaking both shoulders and leaving a nice bleeding exit. Foster types penetrate less in my experience, and I know nothing about brown bears and slugs...
Well there are slugs and there are SLUGS. I have killed black bears very reliably with Rottweil-Brenneke original slugs, and they gave me very good penetration- like breaking both shoulders and leaving a nice bleeding exit. Foster types penetrate less in my experience, and I know nothing about brown bears and slugs...
IF you plan on staying in the woods for a while then my choice would be a Remington Nylon 66 22 Rifle or Colt Woodsman 4 inch .Carrying a brick of ammo wouldn't be much different than a box of 12 ga slugs or buckshot and either rimfire could feed you for a long while. I would also have a short handle ax or hatchet and sharping stone which would be about as good a weapon at short range as you could ask for, plus making fires and shelter much easier because lightweight tents won't last you long for extended stays in the Wilderness .