Hi Folks:

Happy 2009!

I'd like to thank John Barsness again for his latest exclusive column for the Campfire, "Seating Bullets Straightly." This is the place to ask John questions about the column.

For those who have not received it via email, here's a link to sign up:

Sign up for John Barsness's Exclusive Monthly Column

And here's a link to this month's column:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/January_2009.html

Here's December's:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/December_2008.html

Here's November's:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/November_2008.html

And here's October's:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/October_2008.html

Don't forget to check out John's (and Eileen's ) other stuff at http://www.riflesandrecipes.com. Eileen's fabulous cookbooks are a staple in our house! I highly recommend them.

Thanks again, John, and Happy New Year to all!

John,

Have you found that the "floating" type expander ball (Lee Dies) to be more forgiving in the area regarding your article on seating bullets straightly?

It would seem the floating expander ball would naturally center itself.

Thanks.

John,

I haven't gotten through the first page and I've already found something neat. Your pass thrown by a ten year old quarterback analogy for precession draws a great picture of the effect. I'll be using it in future handloading conversations, with attribution of course.

mathman

ought6,

A floating expander ball does help, but I suspect the big problem (at least most of the time) is the case being pulled a little sideways out of the die.

Some dies can even be "adjusted" to float the expander ball. I do this all the time with Redding and RCBS dies, by just backing off the expander stem a little, leaving it loose in the threads.

mathman,

Thanks! That's part of the job, but it's always good to hear when I'm getting it right....

John,

I recall that you mark the die boxes "good" if the die sizes cases straight, less than .002" runout. I've taken to writing "good" around the outside edge of proven shellholders as well. If the upper and lower surfaces of the slot that holds the case rim are machined true then they'll help push/pull cases straight. I don't actually measure this slot of course, I'm just going by the brass that gets sized and measured for runout.

mathman

An excellent idea. I have had very good luck with the Redding Competition shellholders (I believe they are caled), the ones that come in slightly varied heights to "adjust" for headspace when sizing brass. In fact I have had very good luck with Redding stuff in general.

In regards to seating dies, have you found that the Lee die, which claims to be 'floating' for the seating stem also, to actually work as advertised?

+1 JB.

When I was learning how to setup dies I read your Factors in Accuracy, Part II:Handloads about 4 times. Very helpful information, learned in a couple hours what would taken years on my own.


The 'pushing the expander method' works very well with a Redding die. Gets neck runout down from +.010" into the .002-.004" range. I can get away with floating an RCBS expander and get excellent results.


Djpaintless also encouraged me to purchase a concentricty gauge and I couldn't imagine reloading without one now.

After all, the best part of reloading is shooting little groups!

John, I have been using Lapua brass even though it's expensive. I initially bought it for my 6.5x55 because I didn't want the hassle of possible case head fit problems. Lapua manufacturing quality supposedly makes it less prone to excessive runout. Have you used Lapua brass and tested it for runout? Thanks.

Dakota,

Yes, in my experience the lee dies work as advertised.

Sam,

Yeah, it's amazing not only to shoot tiny groups, but do it again and again!

43Shooter,

Yes, I have used Lapua brass in several calibers, and it is generally the most consistent brass in any caliber.

John:

I'll agree, reading the Factors in Accuracy, Parts I and II many times is a great source of info.

I noticed Hornady has a concentricy tool out now that has a feature to reduce the run-out. Have you had a chance use one? It would seem like the best option would be to fix the problem a little more upstream, rather than at the end.

Scott

John:

What about the Forster sizing dies with their expander balls way up toward the top of the stem? It's supposed to minimize the chances of the expander introducing problems with the neck. Any experience with whether, or not, those claims are true? On the surface, the idea seems solid.

Thanks,
Scott

SWJ,

Yeah, I saw the press release on the Hornady tool, which seems like a great idea. I just haven't had seen one yet.

RSY,

The Forster dies do seem to help, if only because the case doesn't have as much chance to tip when being pulled over the expander ball. But the most consistent sizing dies I've tested have been the Lee Collett and the Redding S-types, because they push the neck down ONLY.

Actually the best sizing dies are those where the case just goes in amd comes out, with the neck sizing done by the die itself. Unfortunately these only work really well if the neck thickness is very consistent. This is true in benchrest shooting, because the necks are turned--but not in most shooting.

Once in a while you can run into a perfect combination of die and brass. My .300 H&H die (RCBS) perfectly matches the neck thickness on my lot of Winchester brass. I just run the brass into the die WITHOUT the expander ball assembly, and it comes out perfectly straight and sized correctly, with just enough neck "shrinkage" to hold bullets firmly.

May I add "and chamber" to the die and brass?

I load for a friend's Low Wall in 260 Rem. and we're blessed with that situation. The ordinary RCBS two die set I had him buy at the gun show where he bought the rifle is just great. Just turn the sizer to touch the shellholder and the die hardly touches the brass anywhere but the neck, and on the way out the expander ball lightly kisses the inside. The rounds chamber smoothly and are straight.

John-- Thanks for the good information and especially that about reloading. I learn something from everyone of your articles--and I also learn what I don't know! Regarding seating bullets straight in the case, you refer to "run out". Exactly what is "run out" and how is it measured in thousandths of an inch? Thank you for taking time to read and perhaps answer my question!
Dan

I have read information on bullet straightness where they say .00x is good, .0x0 is bad, etc. But I can't find a standard on where you measure this. Obviously the further from the neck you measure the larger the number. There is a big difference between .002-.004 near the tip and .002-.004 just ahead of the neck. I just picked up a RCBS gauge so I've been playing with this. I have been measuring at the bullet ogive. Works fine for relative measurements. Measuring there they have varied from .002 to .010 (ugh). Most are in the .005-.007 range. I would like to work that down a bit. These were all first loads on new brass (FL sized first).

I'll try to answer two questions in one.

"Run-out" is the amount the bullet is seated out of round from the center of the case. This is exprssed in thousandths of an inch (.001", .002" etc.).

Generally I measure run-out about 1/10th (or maybe 1/8th) of an inch in front of the case mouth. This is simply because my first concetricity tool was an RCBS and that's what the directions advised.

Yeah, 000" is really good! But for varmint loads I generally try for .002" and for big game loads (except for special purposes) around .005". Even when loads are perfect (.000") in such rifles, the accuracy doesn't seem to get any better, because of other factors, including chamber and bullet quality.

Cartridges made with new brass often have iffy runout figures. This is because the area of the case body just below the shoulder isn't usually perfect and warp free until it's fired and sized one time, and that's right where the case rides on one of the support points of the runout checking fixture.

On a related note, I just picked up a Redding neck sizer die for my 338-06. It has a part similar to an expander ball on the decapping rod but it does not appear to contact the inside of the neck at all (much smaller than .338). I'm used to using an RCBS with the expander ball so this is different. I think I'll see what happens if I remove the 'size button' and see if the final dimensions are any different than with it.

John; I took your advise and bought a Redding T7 press. I just loaded some once fired Remington 30-06 brass that I weighed, reamed the primer pockets, deburred the flash hole, trimmed to length, and turned the necks to clean them up. I used a Redding full length sizing die and of 60 cases, 35 had less than .001- under .002 runout on the case neck, 16 were .002 and 5 were .003 at the case neck. I was happy as hell. I seated 10 Sierra 175Mk's and checked bullet runout. None were at .001 most were in the 003 to .005 range. I used the standard Redding seater die. All was good until I seated the bullets. Would a Lee seating die be better, or what would you recommend? I am going to use this load in an old 1903 Springfield as issue rifle that has shown excellent accuracy. I also used a Sinclair longer taper inside neck reamer. Thanks, Luke

Actually, that's pretty good runout for brass loaded with a standard full-length 2-die set.

Before going further, I would first shoot the ammo you loaded and see how it does. One trick is to mark the rounds with the least run-out and see if they actually shoot differently than the loads with max run-out. My bet would be that you won't see much difference in the old '03, but you never know.

luke, if you aren't happy with the results on the target you could allways try a Forster Ultra seater, or the Redding Comp seater and see if you get some improvement.

John,

You mentioned that you have holes drilled in your bench to straighten rounds out. How exactly do you know which way to tweak them?

Thanks for another fine article!

Scott, I'm using their .308 sizer. As soon as I get a gauge I will tell you how they are.

Results on the target so far are excellent, shooting 175gr SMK's out of a box stock Savage 10FP. Around .4 MOA.

I would think if my necks were getting tweaked badly I'd be seeing it on the target.

I plan on getting Sinclair's gauge when I have the cash.

I look at the gauge when testing for run-out and find the "high" side. Then I put the bullet in the appropriate hole with the high side up, and gently push the case down.

I was thinking that the bullet tip may be contacting the bottom of the seater plug and tipping the bullet slightly. Maybe if I had a relief hole in the die perfectly centered in a lathe it would help. Anyone ever try this, or am I wasting my time. The 175Mk is very pointed as you know.Thanks for your replies. Luke

Don't bother! I went downstairs and took the seater plug out and stuffed a bullet into it, and that is not the problem. There' plenty of room. Brain fart.

I think it's a fine idea. You may also be able to recontour the inside of the seater plug for a perfect fit.

A little while back I decided to try some Berger VLD bullets is my 223. I actually remembered to check their compatibility with the seating plug in my die before I was ready to seat bullets. Their points hit before the ogive made contact in the proper part of the seating plug. I contacted the die manufacturer about getting a different plug or getting mine modified and was not pleased with the price quote I got.

The next time I went to Cabelas I had a sample VLD in my pocket. I tried it for seating plug compatibility in a couple of die sets and found one where it fit great. So I wound up with a whole die set for about the same money as the other seating plug modification would have cost, and I paid no shipping charge either.


Hey, you got your other post in while I was typing!

I noticed on my new seating die that the seater plug had very sharp little ridges on the inside and they would leave rings around the bullet. I also feel that it had the potential to grab the bullet and seat it at an angle (ever so slight) vice allowing it to slide to the center of the cone naturally. I took a dremel and some JB bore paste and polished the inside. I plan to load some toinght and see if makes any difference.

After loading a few rounds I think cleaning up the inside of the seating plug helped a bit. Actual numbers are not great (.003-.006), but they are more consistent with most being .003 or .004. Just fine for my purposes. At least is does not leave little rings around the bullet anymore.

I polished on the inside of mine too, but have not had a chance to try it. I'll let you know how it works.

John, I got an order today from Grafs and in the package was a 2009 New Products DVD from Hornady where they showed their new tool. Not a lot of detail, but it DOES look interesting, provided its easy to use. They claimed test versions of the tools have been in the hands of various testers for around two years.

To me it looks like it has some kind of rod that pushes on the projo after you've identified the 'high' side. Dunno if it can measure neck runout thou, do you know?

Anyone know anybody at Hornady? Cough..cough..cough....

As I said earlier, I have just seen the press release. I do know people at Hornady but didn't go to the SHOT Show this year (it's going on right now) so have not looked at the tool itself.

Since the subject of ADJUSTING loaded ammo keeps coming up....

To me you are oblonging the neck, and possibly loosening the grip of the neck to the bullet doing this adjustment. I would rather see something along these lines stated:

If the bullet is out .007", you can safely adjust it a few thousandths to .005 runout ( acceptable by most writings for everything but a bench rest gun)
If the bullet is more than .007 out ( ie .0035 off centerline) then either shoot the round NOT for group, or pull the round down and determine why it isn't within the average of your other ammo???? IE experiment with it to learn why it is out of acceptable tolerance, and possibly toss it...??

Basically, my observation is, especially on .007" or more out of tolerance rounds to get them within specs ( by bending the neck)may not be the best idea. Anyone else adjust ammo and see neck oblonged from the bending of the case neck? Maybe I am wrong, and the neck is soft enough and it really just bends below the bullet, and you are not, like I think, are oblonging the necks. I suerly don't have the answer, as I haven't adjusted more than 1 round in my life, but I don't think it is something you should do every day to resolve POOR RELOADING TECNIQUE.....

Sorry for rambling away, I would like to see John's or Hornady's take on my thoughts. I am sure they have more experience than I doing this, and I could be all wet.

Bench rest shooters typically start with 50 rounds of brass and after neck turning and all of the sorting they do may end up with only 5 or 10 GOOD pieces of brass, tossing the rest for accuracy reasons. I know this is the far extreme of the normal discussion here, and John has shared just a little of what he does to make good ammo, but sometimes readers aren't as experienced as others and little details are helpful in expediting the learning curve. I reloaded for 20+ years before even knowing bullet runout is an important thing to consider, but I am not a benchrest shooter, and they learn at the start runout is an issue that needs to be resolved and they use tecnique, not adjust rounds after being loaded poorly.

Sorry for bouncing around. I have my grandson pulling my finger to go play between sentences.

Take everything John says and do research to add to his excellent words, and take everything I have said with a grain of salt and find other, knowledgable writers information to heart.

Hope this helps someone get a start in researching this important subject.

Allen

An excellent point, and no, I generally don't try to straighten ammo that is over .007" out, as it does tend to loosen the bullets.

That's if my goal is .005". Of course if my goal is .002", then I don't try to straighten any round over .004".

And I also do tend to toss any case that consistently won't size correctly. These are generally those that are heavier-walled on one side than the other, and selecting cases for consistent neck thickness usually eliminates them. This is one reason I prefer to cull cases rather than turn necks. If neck thickness is so lopsided that the neck needs turning, then I figure the case is defective.

Along with dies that size brass straightly, a longer taper chamfer, and a good seating die, this tends to eliminate most of the factors that create crooked bullets. So I don't encounter many rounds so far off that straightening the bullet causes neck problems.

I've found that if the case necks vary .001" or less and the neck is sized down so that the ID is around .002" less than the expander ball, so that the ball doesn't have to move the necks much, I get straight loaded rounds. This is accomplished with Forster dies custom honed (about $20 round trip) to fit the brass.

I have a set of 1966 300 wby dies that I am borrowing from my FIL. He said he won't be reloading for his Wby anytime soon, at 74, as he has 100 rds loaded from a few years ago. I dislike using others dies, but free loaners is cool.

I loaded some ammo, and found I could get from .001" to .006" Bullet runout by marking/ rotating the brass 1/4 turn and resizing 4 or 5 turns, all checked w/ a sinclair type runout indicator tool I made. I decided to call the Mfg's rep, and she recommended I remove the stem and just FL resize and see if the brass comes out decent. I put a previously resized fired round from my gun that had .004" runout in it this morning, and it came out .008" runout. This indicates the die is cut poorly, as she reminded me when she suggest I do this before driving the die to them. I did this as my FIL is driving up there after the vendor returns from the Shot show, to see an old friend at their store. These dies, with his permission, will be swapped for another die set.

Interesting note, I called the son of the Mfg's founder, and he said this happens, it isn't the first set of returned out of spec dies. I suspect many, like my FIL and I prior to making the runout tool, load and fire ammo with large runout w/o even knowing better. They may even get good groups with it, and I don't have the experience to say if better ammo would give better groups......

Hope this helps someone.

Allen

Thank you for adding the information John/ Mule Deer.

This used to be more of a prpblem some years ago. At least one manufacturer (and yours were evidently made by them) used to ream the body of their dies, then ream the neck afterward. Thus they could make .25-06, .270, .30-06, .338-06, .35 Whelen dies cheaper. Same deal with .243 on up on the .308 case, and .264 Win./7mm Rem. Mag, etc.

I had some of those dies, including some real cull .358 Winchesters and "custom" .338-06 dies. But apparently nobody does that anymore, or if they do they do it right. I have been testing full-length sizing dies by running a fired case into them without the expander-ball assembly for many years now, and since around 1990 haven't found any that result in more than .001" runout with a sized case.

But it's something to watch out for when buying used dies.

John,
I really miss your work at Rifle/Handloader magazines. What happened?
Thanks,
C.E. Yost

Glad you like the articles!

It's a long story, but Wolfe and I parted ways last summer on July 30. I'm now writing for several other magazines, some now and then and some on a regular basis. In fact a lot of my articles for the new markets are just appearing now, due to the normal 4-5 month delay between article submission and publication in the magazines business.

The easiest way to find out who I'm writing for now is to log onto my website, www,riflesandrecipes.com.

John,
Are you still doing the elk hunt advertised in Handloader as part of a promotion to get subscriptions? I signed up for a subscription and would love to go on a MT rifle elk hunt.

On another note, polishing the inside of the seater has certainly helped with consistency. I don't seem to have anymore of the big numbers.

No, I'm not going on the elk hunt.

Polishing the expander ball has certainly mostly solved the problem in many of my dies!

John; What is the best way to polish an expander ball?

I don't know about the best way, but what I normally do is take the expander ball/decapping assembly out of the die, then mount it in a 1/2" drill motor. This is easily done by inserting the "rear" of the assembly in the chuck. I mount the drill motor in a bench vise and turn it on, then hold some medium-fine grit emery paper against the expander ball until it looks shinier, and any hard edges are taken off.

I am sure some other folks have methods, and probably better ones.

MD,
I was just going back to this topic and ask you the same question - polished the expander ball. So getting it to look "polished" is good enough? I'd hate to go too far with the emery cloth.
Say, I just started trying this Hornady "ONE SHOT". It doesn't seem to deposit the same "slipperyness" as Imperial Sizing Wax.
Have you had good luck with the spray stuff?

I have an old vid on reloading that David Tubb did for Sierra, where he states that polishing the ball probably won't result in a reduction in its size over .0005" so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

That has been my experience as well. Expander balls ae made of VERY hard stuff, and even a lot of polishing takes off very little material, certainly not enough to matter--or often, to even measure.

bigwhoop,

I haven't used the spray case lubes much. I have used several of the wipe-on types, and generally use IMperial wax, just because it seems to lube better--especially when there's a relatively hard case-forming job to do. And in conventional resizing, a little goes a VERY long way.

How easy is it to get the Imperial wax off the brass? I mean really off, I'm kinda OC about not having anything of that nature anywhere on or in my brass when I go to load it. I use RCBS water soluble lube for that reason, and I expect my brass prep routine would drive an impatient person crazy pretty quick.

I just wipe it off with a rag or microfiber cloth. Piece of cake.

I like it a lot better than the RCBS goo-lube.

Unfortunately I probably wouldn't be satisfied with that level of removal, remember the brass prep OCD. I don't like being able to pinch a finished round and feel it squirm between my fingertips.

The "goo lube" is plenty slick for my purposes, I'm sizing clean brass every time. I also use a Qtip to lube the inside of the case necks to below the junction of the shoulder and the neck. Why? It's the first thing the expander ball touches on the way out of the freshly sized neck. I want all of the lube removed before I load the cases and the water soluble stuff comes right off with a soapy water bath and hot water rinse. This has not been the case with others I've tried.

I have used the RCBS water-soluble gel a lot, and it works OK and comes off easy. But Imperial comes off pretty easily too; I just wipe each case with a piece of clean flannel and they're good to go.

I would imagine, however, that my reloading routines would drive some peopl nuts as well. I load a LOT, so am more into finding out--and doing--what's really important, and skipping the stuff that isn't.

In general, for instance, I try to find ways to totally avoid lubing cases for large-volume shooting, such as prairie dogs.

I'd have to work out a different routine for prarie dog loading, that's for sure!

Muledeer; As you all know I have been trying to make round 30-06 ammo with a basic Redding die set and a T7 press. I found the full length die to have less case runout than the neck sizing die, by a thousands or two, but oddly when bullets are seated they are almost identical in bullet runout. Your bending on bullets to straighten them absolutely works! I had a couple that were .004 and .005 out of round and while looking for a hole to stick the bullet in and try it, I noticed holes in the turret of the T7 press. I found the high side and marked it and stuck it in the hole and applied firm pressure, in two attempts I had .001 runout. Tried the same technique with others and had the same results. I don't know if they will shoot any straighter, but it make me happy as hell. Thanks John for the advise. I also polished the seater neck and it also helped!

I use One Shot then toss the batch in the tumbler for about 30 minutes. Seems to work fine. Am I introducing any problems?

Nope, not unless you're decapping them before throwing them in the tumbler, and using a typical corn-cob or walnut-shell polishing medium. Bits of polishing mix can get in the flash-holes, which means you have to check every case before loading. But if you're just using a liquid cleaner, no biggie.

MD:

I have Model 700 Mtn Rifle in 7x57, to make a long story short the rifle will shoot lights out with Hornady 139 gr flatbases as long as the rounout is .005 or less. Problem was my Redding dies would not seat those bullets consistently enough. So to solve the problem I sorted through many once fired cases, check neck thickness, prepped them an then began seating bullets. Soon as I got one near perfect (about .001-.002") I lowered the ram, removed the seating stem & roughed up the "cup", mixed up a bit of Acraglas, added some to the cup and placed it back in the die. Took the aforementioned dummy round, lubed the tip, raised the ram and then screwed the seating stem back down until it contacted the bullet firmly. Left overnight. Next day lowered the ram, cleaned up any excess with a small file. Now all the reloaded ammo is very consistent. Problemo solved.

Course it only works with this bullet, but then that's not such a bad thing.

Neat idea! Thanks for sharing....

MD,

You mention in your article that getting a nice gentle taper to the case mouth chamfer is desirable. Which deburring tools would you recommend? I currently use one of the little Lee deburring tools. I don't know whether it is too steep or not, as I have nothing else to compare it to. Also, I suspect that it is not doing an even job all the way around the neck (or, rather, it is doing it's job just fine, but I don't think I can hold it straight enough to get things even!).

Thanks for the great articles. I went out and bought a runout gauge and it's the cat's meow.

Sinclair International offers and inside chamfering tool that makes a much gentler taper than the typical deburring tool. Some shops that cater to metal machining also carry various deburring tools for small openings. I have one with a rotary blade that works very well. Actuaally, deburring with the small blade on a pocketknife would probably work too. The big thing is to avoid the slight burr that typical tools tend to leave because of their steep angle.

I recently ran across a long tapered chamfer tool advertised as for VLD bullets. Forgot the brand, but I suspect this would do what John is saying?

No offense to John's suggestion on tweaking the bullets to get the rounds with less runout, but Luke's reply makes my question come to the top again. Luke, have you verified on the range that this tweaking of the cartridges actually results in better groups, or does it just make you feel better about your ammo....LOL

I suspect adjusting the loaded ammo may be inconsequential to accuracy, unless the ammo was way out, and as stated many times above maybe the reason your ammo is out of round should be addressed rather than making bad ammo and trying to fix it, IMHO, with the worst possible way to make good ammo...

I just fixed the problem on my 300 Wby by getting a new FL size die.

Allen

John,

How do totally avoid lubing cases?

Second, I picked up a tool made by Bersin at the Super Shoot (bench rest) a rew years ago. You insert the loaded round up to the shoulder and rotate it. The device measures runout and tells you where the high spot is. Then you crank a little post and it improves the runout. I use this for 600 yard target shooting. I don't know if it actually makes tighter groups or just makes me feel better.

I either neck-size or partial-size cases for PD shooting, if possible. I neck-size .204 and .223 cases in Redding bushing dies, only full-length sizing them (in a Redding body die) when necessary. I partial-size .22 Hornet brass in a Hornady FL die backed out a couple of threads.

Evidently Hornady just introduced a bullet-runout tool that also can straighten out bullets that aren't seated to your standards. I have tested whether straightening slightly crooked-seated bullets helps accuracy, and as long as the bullet isn't TOO far out before straightening, it seems to help.

Thanks John, I will have a look locally to see if any machine shops carry such a thing. I looked up the Sinclair deburring tool and it looks like it would work much better than the Lee tool.

John, Any tips on seating large caliber bullets in straight wall cases? I am new to this type of cartridge and it is giving me fits with straightness. Thank you

I assume you are belling the mouths of the cases. I have found a good target-type seating die helps. These keep the bullet in alignment better than standard dies during seating. I use the Redding Competition seating die when loading .45-70's, for instance.

I've been belling the mouths, but they really go in crooked. I needed an excuse to get an order going at Midway so the Redding die gets me that. Thanks

Good useful info. I have to confess I am a case rotater when seating bullets, it's habit now even though it doesn't do anything.

I was wondering about using O rings to float every threaded element possible to reduce run out. O rings between dies and lock rings,die and sizer stem, and shell holder and ram? This method was made popular by Tubbs & Zeddeker.

Also how important is the press itself? My old A2 press looks like it did duty smashing cans at a recycling center for a couple of years. Will the press aggravate excessive bullet run out?

Hi John,

Just discovered that you provide this "service" for users of this forum - this discovery has made my day. Now I get to ask you a question I have had ever since I read an article you wrote where you discuss resizing brass first (a) without the expander, than (b) replacing the expander ball then expanding the neck by by "pushing" the expander ball into the neck as a means to improve bullet concentricity/neck runout/bullet runout(i.e., two step resizing process). I think you even stated that you have two dies to do this (i.e., one without the expander ball and one witht the expander ball).

My questions are this - I have a Lee FL resizing die and a RCBS FL resizing die for a .300 WSM. First, is it acceptable to use one of these dies to resize the case and the other to expand the case neck if the dies are from different manufacturers (or should I get another RCBS or Lee). Second, if the answer to the first question is yes (it is acceptable), what die should I use to rezise the case and which should I use to expand the neck or does it even matter?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Yeah, you can use dies from two diffeent makers to do the two jobs. I usually don't, one reason I tend to use Redding or RCBS dies, because the expander/decapper assembly is easily unscrewed.

Sometimes dies with a screw-in assembly will expand necks straighter with the "push-over" method, especially if the assembly is left slightly loose in the die, instead of being tightened down.

Whenever I post this, I always get the forum equivalent of a blank stare (maybe they're rolling their eyes ).......

I drop my dies with Imperial Wax into a parts bucket of laquer thinner (I have a couple of these buckets I made out of different sizes of coffe cans). I drop the brass in as each one is resized, let them soak for a while, pull them out and run neck brush into the necks, drop the basket back into the bucket and let them soak for a few more minutes, then blow out the brass with compressed air.

I think the brass has residual lubricant on it with just wiping, and the lacquer thinner gets the cases "squeaky clean".

I'm pretty sure that I have seen pressure signs that were caused by not thoroughly cleaning brass--I had a buddy who had pressure signs until I cleaned his brass with my method.

I once saw the aftermath of a beginning handloader who didn't wipe off his spray-on lubricant........ruptured the case and stuck the bolt......



Casey

John,

In your recommendations about acceptable neck concentricity for accurate hunting rounds, are you speaking of the maximum variation in readings on a gauge such as RCBS's casemater (e.g., .315 minium to .320 maximum = neck concentricity of .005") OR total variance from the axis of rotation (e.g., (.315-.320)/2 = neck concentricity of .0025)?

The reason why I am asking is that I've seen a post on another forum that stated that dividing the total variance in neck concentricity gives you the true neck concentricity of a case (i.e., "out of round" state), but that most people speak of neck concentricity as being the difference between the maximum and minium readings. If that is the case, I have been mistakenly culling cases because I have taken neck concentricity variation to mean the difference between the maximum and minium readings (e.g., culling cases for what I thought had variations greater than .005, when in actuality, the neck concentricity was .0025).

I'm talking about the maximum variation in neck thickness of a single case, as measured by a Casemaster or similar tool.

Just reread the newsletter on "bullet seating" newsletter and I came to a sickening realization. I have been following the process of removing the expander/decapper assembly, sizing my case (FIRST STEP), then replacing the expander/decapper assembly and pushing my the expander through the neck (SECOND STEP) AND THEN CONTINUING TO PUSH THE SPENT PRIMER OUT. I am just now realizing now that this is probably defeating the purpose of the SECOND STEP because as I full-lenght resize, I am compressing the neck again, and therefore still PULLING on the case neck as the expander ball comes out of the case. Is this correct?

If my reasoning is correct, do you see any disadvantages/harm if I (other than prolonging the reloading process)(1) FL resize as normal, pushing the primer out as I do so, (2) resize again with the expander/decapper removed, and finally (3) reinstall the expander/decapper and pushing into the neck, BUT only enough to push through the neck (i.e., not pushing the case fully into the die. Because of where I live, I would not be able to get a "Universal Decapper die" anytime soon (and I am not very patient).

Thanks in advance

YTou rprobably are defeating the purpose of pushing the expander ball through the neck. But it depends on how straight your cases come out of the die. If they come out straight, no problem. If they don't, the necks are obviously being pull off-kilter by the expander button.

The sequence you suggest REALLY overworks the brass in the neck, and you'll end up with cracked necks a lot sooner--or have to anneal a lot sooner.

Have you tested the necks of your brass for straightness the way you size them now?

I am not MD but you might try raising the die off the shellholder 1/2 dozen turns and screwing the decapping rod all the way down in the die and see if it will deprime while not resizing anything but the uppermost portion of the neck. If the die isn`t a Forster with the raised expander it should still expand the neck, and the die body will make minimal contact this way..just a thought.

Mule Deer,

No, I haven't, but I will now. I guess I am so focused on trying to create the most accurate ammo possible, straight-off (fairly new to reloading), that I have not even checked to see whether some steps are even necessary (i.e., assuming my necks have unacceptable run-out following resizing without even checking first).

By the way, I just finished "breaking-in" my .300 WSM using the "Final Finish System" and hastily prepared the twice-used brass using your two-step process to make some test loads for a 180 grain MRX (I am going to try the "OCW" method).

Ol' Joe's suggestion of raising the shellholder + screwing the decapping rod all the way down seems like a reasonable option to try (yes, it is an option for me - I am using an RCBS die - Thanks Ol' Joe for the wonderful). However, I am somewhat reluctant to try it - it seems that the decapping rod/decapping pin would be placed under a lot more stress, increasing the probability of (a) breaking/bending the decapping rod and/or (b) breaking the pin. Replacing either would be a painful process for the same reason why I don't order some type of decapping die (google Earth Pangnirtung, Nuanvut Canada and you'll understand why). Has anybody out there tried, or have addtional, thought's Ol' Joe's suggestion.

Thanks

Ol' Joe,

Curiosity DID NOT kill the cat. I tried your suggestion, and it worked "purr"-fectly (however, I only tried 3 cases, so the sample size is extremely). If this will work all the time with all/most other resizing dies, doesn't it make the RCBS Universal decapping die unnecessary (just my musings). No noticable contact between brass and resizing die and the primer popped out with practically no effort. You have made my day.

Mule Deer,
I also checked case-necks using the one-step standard procedure (i.e., Resizing/decapping in one-step, although I did keep the decapping pin/decappin rod loose). Neck run-out for all three cases was no higher than .002 - I thought this was pretty good.

That is quite good, especially if you aren't using brass sorted for uniform neck walls. Keeping the decap rod loose works great for several sets of my dies.

m

BearClan I`m glad my suggestion worked. I would not worry too much about runout though if you are finding it at less then 0.002" while resizing with a loose decapper. It sounds like you have it licked, I`d just continue as you are.;<)

Runout and long vs. short bullets:

I have a question for Mule Deer and others experienced with the effects of runout. I'm kind of new at hand loading and I'm thinking I need to pay more attention to runout. I've noticed that in a few of my rifles, a .270 Win and .270 WSM in particular, I can get 150-grain bullets to shoot good groups, but I'm not having as much success with 130s.

So here's my question: If I'm not controlling runout, will I see a difference in how long vs. short bullets shoot? In other words, if a long-for-caliber bullet and a short-for-caliber bullet are both started out a little off-center (all other things being equal), will the longer bullet tend to "straighten out and fly right" better?

Or do I just have a couple of rifles that like longer bullets?

I have long suspected (but can't prove) that longer bullet do tend to straighten themselves out when they start down the barrel if seated a little crooked.

I have also in general had better luck getting 150-grain bullets to shoot really well in .270's, whether Win. or WSM. This may be because of the above factor, but also may be because the standard rifling twist is slightly better suited to 150's than 130's.

JB

I just finished watching you Advanced Handloading DVD....AGAIN while I was loading a batch of 308.

I measured the runout of the seated bullets after I was done to sort them. 40 of 50 had 0.002 or less RO. The most of the the rest were 0.003 with one as "high" as 0.005.

If I am getting this level of concentricity, is there still likely to be an advantage to measuring and culling brass based on neck thickness?

Maybe, and maybe not. (How's that for certainty?)

What you might do is mark the rounds with more bullet runout, then measure the necks of those cases after shooting them to see if there's any discernible difference in neck uniformity. I often do this by putting a dot on the primer with a marking pen. This also a good way to test if that amount of runout makes any practical difference in accuracy in that rifle.

Hi John,

I just ordered a Sinclair Neck turning kit. After reading what actually comes with the kit, I learned that it comes with an "Expander" die that houses a mandrel to expands the case necks for "optimal bullet tension".

I was wondering if you are familiar with this product? I am assuming this "expander die" is same premise, and uses the two-step process you describe(first resize without expander, then push expander down neck. If you are familiar with this product, what advantages, if any, do you think it would provide over using the normal resizing die's expander?

Thanks

BTW, I don't know if I have been unlucky, but I decided to experiment with neck turning after finding that over half of the 200 Winchester cases I had on hand had neck thicknesses over .0015" (i.e., in excess of the recommendation you give in your "advanced handloading" video for hunting rounds- awesome video by the way).

I plan on neck-turning and "indexing" these cases so that I can line up the thin sides of brass with the locking lugs (a technique that D. Tubbs describes in an older Sierra reloading video) and see how different the accuracy from rounds with higher quality cases (i.e., case neck thickness<.0015;case neck runout<.002). All rounds in test will be made to have bullet runout<.005).

John,
Glad to see you're back with Wolf Publishing and American Rifleman.