I will start this by saying that I have very limited experience with these bullets. I have done some load development with the 85 grain TSX, for a 6mm Remington and a .243 WCF. I just recently took a decent whitetail buck with a TSX out of the 6mm, and have a couple observations about that experience that I would like to kick around.

To begin with, load development was suprisingly easy. I don't have a barnes manual, as I have never seen the need for these bullets before. I used my Nosler, Speer and Sierra manuals to cross reference the chargeweights for an 85 grainer, and then backed off a tad to allow for development.

I landed so far at 39.0 grains of Varget for the 6mm. I am having to work with Fed 215 primers, another reason to back off a tad. Anyway, once I mounted a decent scope I got three shots groups at 7/8". Good enough for government work. I don't have a chronograph, so I don't know the speed, but did recover one bullet from the berm that had expanded and shed it's petals. So far, so good.

I took a Whitetail buck last Saturday with the 6mm at about 65 yards or so. He was standing stock still, broadside. I shot him directly though the shoulders at 12 o' clock. No surprise, he died where he stood.

On inspection, the entrance and exit holes were minimal. There was no blood on the ground where he lay. I drug him out to another area to dress him. The chest cavity of the deer contained little to no blood. The lungs showed obvious signs of trauma from the bullet's path.

Once skinned, it became easier to see the entrance and exit wounds. I would estimate the size to be .40 to .45". The bloodshot area around the wounds was no more than the size of a silver dollar. It was a very clean kill, if nothing else.

I apologize for the lack of photographs with this post, but I forgot the camera. That said, do the circumstances, as I described them, sound like typical TSX performance to you?

I have more testing to do this weekend, and hopefully will have a larger sample to consider. My question at this time is whether the TSX will expand to the same level if I only shoot through the ribs, rather than the shoulder?

I primarily went with the TSX this year because of the two .24 calibers I was loading for. We have had good success in the past with the 95 grain Partition, and have used the 90 grain Speer HotCor with success, but I recovered the jacket off one of those last year, and lost a little confidence in that bullet.

One other observation with these bullets. I have killed one crow and one deer with them so far, but in both cases I clearly heard the satisfying "whap" of the bullet striking. I am about deaf, and I enjoy that a great deal. Gilding the lily, I know, but enjoyable, nonetheless.

Yours is pretty typical TSX performance. FWIW the people at Barnes maintain the TSX will open in a matter of inches, so basically yes, the bullet should expand whether you hit ribs, shoulders, whatever..
I have used the TSXs extensively in a couple calibers, notable centerfire .22s and they are my absolute favorite for deer/antelope in the small calibers.
We ( my wife and I) have also used TSXs in more standard rifles...30-06, .257 Bob, 7x57 on a variety of game, both North american and African PG...Completely happy with the bullets...

There are LOTS of good bullets out there, and I feel the TSXs are just what is needed when you are shooting game that is larger than generally shot with the cartridge in question...
i.e. .223 and deer....7x57 and Gemsbok or elk...

Ingwe

Ingwe,
I think my application for TSX's is more or less on the same page as yours.

I can see using them in "magnum" cartridges where speed can compromise Cup and Core bullets. I don't own a magnum rifle, so for the most part, CnC bullets have performed well for me in 7/08, .280, .30-06, as well as .30WCF and a couple others I am sure I am forgetting.

Crimson,

Weidmannsheil on the Buck. My experience with the TSX 85 gr. at a sedate 3050 fps out of my 6mm Rem. differs a little from yours described:

First off, different species/size:

On the (rare) occasion that roe deer run after a good hit through heart / lungs, I usually find this:



After I follow that, I find this on the exit side:



The difference in our opservations might be explained with the size of the animal.

My fazit, apart from that though is positve.

cmg,
Thank you very much. It may be that I am running slower than 3,000 fps.

My rifle has a 20" tube which will shave a little velocity, but I would have thought I was close to 3,000 if you can believe anything in a reloading manual, and making a SWAG based on the difference in the length of barrel the manual used and the length you will be running.

I realize that I desperately need a chronograph.

I had forgotten you were using the 6mm as well. I remembered Kermit as soon as I saw your pic.

Actually, TSX's start to open the instant they hit anything, not within several inches. They're fully expanded by the time they've gone their length into a deer (or whatver). This is exactly what almost all expanding bullets do; the only exception I've seen is the Berger VLD, that delays expanding for a couple of inches.

TSX's are also generally one of the easiest bullets to get to shoot. I have only encountered maybe 2-3 rifles (out of dozens) that haven't shot TSX's into an inch or less for 3 shots at 100 yards, and only one rifle that simply didn't like them.

MD...my experience has also been that they are easy to get to shoot well in virtually all rifles..
Barnes has some video slo mo stuff on their website showing the expansion of the TSXs..
I was saying inches to give them the benefit of the doubt....it must be dam quick, cause entrances are often the same size as exits....which probably leads to the "penciling thru" myths..

Ingwe

Slow-motion of various expanding bullets shows that (with the exception of the VLD) they all start to expand immediately, the reason meat damage is normally most extensive around the entrance hole.

The old myth that some bullets expand more slow than other is just that, a myth. Some do expand more violently than others, but if they expand at all, they do it immediately.

If all goes well, I will be shooting for the slats this weekend. Will try to remember the camera.

I like the Barnes bullets on Cape Buffalo, Eland and the really big heavy stuff, I have seen them do some funny things on lighter animals..I feel the same way about Swifts bullets..I only base this on my personal experiences and who knows? it could be chalked up to coincedence...but it is what it is, and I use other brands for the smaller stuff..I know some folks that are well versed in hunting and they swear by Barnes and Swifts, so be it..thats what makes a horse race.

Ray,

Part of what has me testing the TSX is your idea on partitions smaller than .270. Just what is the best .24 caliber bullet for whitetails? All the way to muledeer, if I wanted to hunt with a .243 WCF, 6mm Rem or even .240 WBY, what bullet is the right one to use?

I am not being argumentative, just wanting to learn. I often watch hunting video's and when the deer appears, I try to think through what bullet I would want to be using if I were shooting a 6mm. Some of the shot presentations or angles if you will, definitely predicate a stout bullet. (Or a stouter cartridge, if you will.)

I've shot a bunch of deer through the ribs with the TSX in 130 grain 30-06.

They have given the smallish entrance and exit (though in no way a "pencil") but have made mush of the lungs. My feeling is that they demonstrate a more destructive wound channel when shooting into 'liquid' type organs, such as lung, than they do in muscle/bone.

I've shot a couple from various angles through 'bone' and the wound channel was quite small and tubular. On those shots where I've hit more liquidy organs, including at least one angled up through the gut, the internal damage was extensive (and messy).

Possibly the petals are coming off/being laid back when hitting bone at entrance? I do not know, as I have never recovered one in a deer yet.

Also, they do seem to cause bloodshotting around entrance/exit, but it is not a destruction of meat, rather just loose blood in the connective tissues between muscle groups. The bloodshotting can be easily wiped/washed off the meat. This contrasts with lead bullets that seem to be blowing small lead fragments into the actual muscle itself, thereby resulting in lost meat.

Tide,
I have not seen near the animals harvested as Ray has but in the case of the 6MM and the 85 TSX I have seen first hand the performance of that round and bullet. The rifle is an Ackley version and that bullet combination works real well on a Whitetail and did a fine job on a Wyoming Antelope a month ago. No recovery, pass through, no blood trail (they died where they stood).
Don't know what would happen if a guy took a less than desirable shot but my suspicion is that this combination would work as well as anything considered practical.

Dave

Thanks all. So far I am pleased with them. Hoping that Mrs. Tide will get a chance to field test them in the morning, as I loaded them for her .243 as well.

Tomorrow's hunt is more for Mrs. Tide and Tide Jr. He'll be hunting with his .257 Roberts and the 110 grain Accubond. We already know how that works.

Overall, I guess I was pondering out loud about them before actually taking the shot.

Very similar results when using the 140gr TSX in a 7mm SAUM. This combo has taken 4 bucks and two does, all died in their tracks without ever taking a step and had telltale audile WHAP on impact, more so than any other bullet I have used. Have also used the 100 TSX in a 25-06 with good performance, but the three deer killed with it (1 buck, 2 doe) all ran, but blood trail was impressive to say the least. Meat damage is minimal with the exception of one shoulder shot which is to be expected.

Enlightening thread. I have a buddy who came over and loaded some 80gr TTSX's for a .243 at my house and so far we've shot about 10 rds of pressure/speed/dialing in loads.

My comment for the thread and not a dig at CrimsonTide but one lesson I learned is if you own a press you need to have a Chronograph of some sort. If you can afford 3 boxes of Barnes or Nosler bullets you can afford a Chrony HERE after shooting book loads in a .30-30 that were running .308 velocity I got one and am glad for it.


Carry on,

Mike

You can't push them too fast or take out too much bone with them.

Agreed.......

Much of my experience with TSX's follows others results here. But I will say definitively that with these TSX's (3 bulls), I've had almost zero bloodshot meat left to deal with when all was said and done.

For me, along with all their other attributes, that's a huge bonus. Only the buck I shot yesterday with the 300gr. Beartooth HC bullets has shown similar lack of bloodshot meat.

Less waste, less clean up of game, almost always one of the most accurate bullets I try in my rifles, punches on through ALWAYS (for me anyway).......what's not to like?

Don't say price........good stuff costs more. Not having to use follow up shots can easily make you even..........

Yep, my experience on the bloodshot meat is nil...after a couple dozen kills..
I will occasionally get blood in the mucous membranes on or between the muscles, which is easily peeled off....
None in the muscle per se...
I must be like you, I don't like working hard for that meat, and having to throw a bunch away...
Also as Steelhead said, you can't drive them fast enough...
CnC boolits...velocity equals bloodshot..
TSXs- no noticeable difference ...
Love 'em...

Ingwe

Ingwe,
Talked to a guy at Barnes a few weeks ago and told him that the company he worked for had obsoleted a whole bunch of bullets on the shelves in my loading room. He recommended I use them to punch holes in paper.
Since I started using them I always reach for them instead of the old standby bullets. I like you really like em and they are accurate too.

Dave

10-4 !!!

Ingwe

Not bashing here, just stating some facts from me & my buddies elk hunt this year.

My buddy shot a very nice 6x6 at 260 yds with a 300 WSM and 180 grain TSX. He had a pencil hole in and a pencil hole out with not much internal damage. He did manage to hit the heart and the bull went 20 yds and fell.

I shot a nice 5x5 at 125 yds with a 300 Win Mag and 180 grain TSX. I hit the bull slightly low behind front shoulder. I got a pencil hole in & pencil hole out with not much internal damage. It was a double lung shot, but the bull still managed to go 80 or 90 yds before piling up.

My take = NOT impressed with the TSX bullet!!! Me & my buddy will not be using the TSX for hunting anymore.

.300....an earlier post

Ingwe

This is from a little 223, had a like hole last week with an 85 X from the 250AI. Guess it happens cuzz people post it, but I've never seen one not expand and not [bleep] up some serious stuff.

Scott...thats "penciling on thru"....
Just looks like a BIG pencil!

Ingwe

That's why I don't mind being labeled pencil di....

Doooooood!!!!



Ingwe

There is no point having lead in your pencil if you don't have anyone to write to.

JW

Fortunately women are always getting married so the supply never dries up....

Travis

This should be entertaining.

Before they were accurate many people didn't know or care that the Barnes bullet didn't tend to waste much meat, or that one could shoot the bones without fear of having things go all to hell and havoc. So strolling through this thread is a lot like walking through a room full of mirrors. Lots of same-same experiences. And, shoot them fast. Speed in a bullet that does not fail when fired at Ultra-Mag speeds at 20 yards should tell one something. As if the plastic tips on an already pointy bullet didn't. Which may explain why we sometimes see or hear about that which 300Mag describes. Still waiting to drop the sear on a TSX with meat in my sights. Perhaps it's time to try copper again.

Klikitarik;
I hope this finds you and your fine family well this morning.

In the thread where I posted the picture of my first recovered TSX, you made a comment:

�FWIW, I almost wonder if early bone contact may be one of the factors which slows them down. In most cases that's what happened in the animals I caught copper with.�

I thought about that for a bit and would have to say I agree with that premise.

Our TSX experiences aren�t with as many animals as some here, but as we help cut up a few other folk�s game, we get the benefit of doing a few more necropsies every year than if we didn�t do that.

A few things do stick out with the TSX and to some degree bonded bullets as well.
� They don�t make as much mess as the �average cup and core� if a scapula is contacted, either entry or exit. This fall one whitetail spike took a C&C on entry to the scapula at under 100yds and roughly half ended up as cat food. In fact, we threw away less meat on both of our eldest�s deer, who took out 3 scapulas on her 2 deer with 130gr. TSX out of her Swede.

� They do perform well at nearly muzzle speed and to your point - that does indeed tell the observant a fair bit.

� In our limited experience they do tend to be at their best after first breaking a bit of bone. As seen on the little buck I took, they will break fairly large bones like the spine and keep on sailing, which I�ve not seen a C&C do.

� As others have said here, the TSX seem to be fairly easy to get to shoot well in most rifles.

� I had limited experience with the X in a couple rifles and for me there was a vast chasm of difference when trying to either get the X to group or to go fast without pressure when compared to the TSX.

Thanks to everyone who has responded, it makes for an interesting read. Good luck to all in your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

Just an update. Mrs. Tide drilled a fat doe this morning with her pet .243 and the TSX. It was facing dead on.

Her first shot hit the leading edge of the deer's right shoulder and went between the scapula and ribcage, exiting about middleways back. It broke the right shoulder, and fortunately Mama Tide doesn't mind working a bolt and squeezing again.

The next one was directly through the ribs. She thought she had missed the second shot till we dressed it out. there was no obvious sign of an entrance or exit until we got the hide off.

I will say that with the hide off, there was a dime sized hole through both sides of the ribcage.

I will be leaving out tomorrow for Owensboro, hopefully I'll get another chance to test a couple before I am out of hunting days.

Congrat's to Mrs. Tide!!!!! Also thanks for the TSX report. Seems we need to shoot game with solid steel walls behind them just to recover one of the darn things...........

Good for you spendin' the time afield with your wife..... Whether she loves it or not, your involvement isn't mandatory, which makes spendin' time in such pursuits even more meaningful. Good for you......both.

My wife shot a nice doe many moons ago, one shot through the lungs, said she was glad she did it, but hasn't bothered me during my last 30+ seasons to do it again....... She said she got all excited just because I was so passionate about it and just had to see what all the fuss was about. Some sports and/or hobbies aren't for everyone.......just the way it is. We're both very OK with that.

Congrat's again to you both.

Mr. Crimson Tide;
Thank you for the update, it makes interesting reading and food for thought.

If you don't mind commenting, was the internal tissue damage on both shots what you were expecting?

If you would, please send along congratulations to your wife for the job well done on the deer.

I�d say from personal experience that anyone who has a spouse who will go afield with them is definitely rich beyond compare. Very cool.

Thanks again and good luck to both of you on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne

Thanks guys,

The internal damage from the two shots today was interesting. There was more in the way of "bloodshot" meat or the red area about the wound, the rib shot especially.

We aren't shoulder eaters, so I didn't peel it all the way down to check out the damage to the shoulder that was hit, I do recall a chunk of bone that fell out of the exit from the head on shot. It was the size of a quarter!

Damage to internal organs consisted mainly of what I would guess was a fist sized chunk of lungs turned to shreds and soup. Everything else was clean.

My only apprehension so far, is the minimal entrance and exit holes in the hide. I am ok with the penetration, and I especially like that I can depend on a .240 caliber bullet to penetrate to the important parts from any angle.

So long as they die in the open, No problem. But I didn't see the kind of bloodtrail today that cmg got from his roe deer. Of course Trace was hunting in an open field and shooting from some hay bales. It was easy enough to find.

In the end, I think I will keep testing through the end of the season. Two deer do not a test make.

Oh, Guys,
Thanks for the nice comments about taking Trace hunting. She seems to enjoy it. Last year she loaded her own ammunition. I am guessing she would have used the last of it this year, had the TSX experiment not come up.

It was a good day all the way around. My 12 year old got to go hunting with us, and he wanted to hunt with my 6mm. I was secretly hoping that he would get to shoot one with it just to further the experiment. Didn't work out for him today though, he had a couple of opportunities, but we couldn't get him in a position to get a shot.

One last thing that I enjoyed today, For the first time, I carried an old 1936 Model Marlin Lever in .32 Spl. My grandfather gave it to my dad when he and mom got married. It has been in my safe for years, but today was the very first time I carried it in the field. Was really trying to guide more than hunt myself, but it felt good to drag that old rifle around with me.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/Copper_Manual4/243Winchester.pdf
http://www.barnesbullets.com/Copper_Manual4/6mmRemington.pdf

Not exhaustive, but useful nonetheless. Loosk like powders slower than Varget work better in the 243.

BigUgly,
Thank you for posting the links. I actually loaded RL-19 for her .243, but loaded Varget in my 6mm. Should have just left Varget out of it, but it is what it is for now.

Both of us are running 20 inch barrels, but from the numbers, should still be able to make 3100 or so based rule of thumb velocity loss. (For whatever a rule of thumb is worth.)

I don't get hung up on numbers so much as accuracy and terminal performance.

CrimsonTide, just for giggles and grins, you may want to try a box of 95g Nosler partitions with 43. g of IMR 4350 to compare the 85g Tripple shocks to, if you are not in a NO LeAD Zone.

Good luck

My wife has killed five deer with the 90 grain X bullet with a 6mm Rem. I have recovered three bullets. Two were from head on shots that traveled full length and were found in the hams. They both expanded to .510"-.520" and one lost one petal. The third bullet was from a short range finishing shot in the neck. I think it shed all the petals but I can't find that one so don't know for sure. She hit one buck broadside and broke both shoulders and the bullet exited. They are penetrators! I don't know how the X compares to the TSX as I haven't loaded any TSX's yet.

Keith,
Kentucky is very lead friendly. We don't mind you slinging it at all around here.

We ran the 95 grain partitions in her .243 one year. I know exactly how they will work, which is to say, very well.

My only complaint, is the deformation of the lead tips. I know that it probably doesn't affect accuracy all that much, but it just seems like a waste.

If I could have my wishes, I would have Nosler make "Ballistic Partitions". If they would conjure up a 95 grain paritition with a synthetic tip, I would never load anything else for use on deer. (Out of a .240 caliber).

There is a talk of a 90/95 grain Accubond, which would pretty much be what you want.

Maybe shoot them an email expressing your wish.

My friend just shot a big doe a few days ago with the .243 85gr TSX, and the bullet entered dead center of the chest on a head-on shot (at a slight angle). The bullet penetrated the length of the deer and was found under the hide just in front of the rear leg. The deer dropped on the spot and there was quite a bit of blood.

Hey Jordan - did you get to use those TTSX's I sent up your way......?

My buck came via a .430 300gr. WFNHCGC'd pill this year..... In truth, I really wanted to see how those .257 100gr. TTSX's worked. But, I'm not complaining 'cuz the handgun experience was a hoot.

Hi Ken,

I've been trying to put them to good use, but the search continues for a buck that is worthy of the TTSX treatment

The handgun buck sounds like a blast! I'll fulfill your TTSX dreams vicariously by reporting back to you once I make good use of a bullet or two

My wife and I both killed similarly sized deer last week - hers was with a 140 gr TSX out of a 7mm-08 AI (her elk load) and mine with a 140 gr TTSX using a 284 win. Both shot angles were very similar, slightly quartering towards the hunter, impact velocities were probably within 100 fps of each other. Her shot entered just behind the shoulder and exited just behind the last rib on the other side, just grazing the stomach. There was a huge blood trail that started about 2 feet from where the deer was standing on impact and led to the deer about 40 yards away. My shot took out the shoulder, exited at almost the exact same relative location - the deer again ran about 40 yards or so after the shot but there was almost zero blood. I found one bloody leaf about 20 yards from where the deer was standing when I shot. Her bullet made enough of a hole in the diaphragm to allow copious amounts of blood from the heart lung region to gush out the exit and to bloody the intestine area. For some reason, my shot didn't do that. The deer died just as fast, but all of the bleeding was captured inside and the intestines were the typical white/gray. Good bullets, with good performance, but my wife prefers the 120 gr Nosler BTs for deer. Hammer of Thor and typically a hole in and a hole out. I'll be loading those up for her next season. So keep on testing and let us know how it goes for you. Good luck to Jr also!

Well, my modern gun deer season is over. In the end, I shot three deer with the 85 grain TSX out of a 20" barreled 6mm. Mrs. Tide took one with the same bullet out of a 20" .243.

Somehow, by the fortunes of war, or whatever you might call it, I managed to either clip or bust the spine on all three deer I shot. I am confident that it will give sufficient penetration on whitetails, from any angle.

I am thinking that I didn't make the best choice I could have in regards to powder. I believe that running them a little faster than I was, would have changed what I saw in "on-game" performance.

In the end, I came up with a list of the things I like about the TSX's.

1. Accuracy
2. Penetration capabilities
3. Lack of lead frag and/or copper jacket shrapnel in the meat.
4. No deformation of bullets in the magazine when the chambered round is fired.

The only issue that gives me pause at this point is the lack of blood. It could be something that would clear up with a bit of acceleration. I think that they merit continued use, but I do feel better drilling shoulder with them.

I think all your points are valid..I'm a big TSX fan...

The blood trail issue...it has been our experience ( my wife and I ) that they leave as good a blood trail as anything in the same caliber.....THAT is the caveat...because they shoot and work so well, we are inclined to shoot them in smaller calibers to achieve the same effect..We shoot a LOT in .22 centerfires,and my wife's .257..

Not so many in the 7x57 or .30-06...because we rarely take the "big Guns" hunting as much anymore...

Kind of a "catch 22"...as it were....

Ingwe

I have shot a bit of game with them in a .257 Wby, 7x57, and .338 mostly. Never recovered one, and only one doe moved, which was a 420 yard shot with the .257 Wby that went about 75 yards. I have mostly seen just the opposite, huge pools of blood where the animal went down, esp. with the .338 on caribou. there was about an eight foot square covered with blood and a dead caribou in it.

Thanks Jordan! Just passed by this way again, sorry for the delay in responding.....

Please, let me know when you make good use of those TTSX's.

Take care.

I watched Bart's boy bonk a fork whitetail at about 95 yards with a 6mm Remington loaded with 85gr TSX's. Deer went maybe 15 yards and everything was all goo'd up inside with a good exit.

I busted a fork whitetail with 130gr TSX at 100 yards and same results and an Axis buck at 140 yards with an 85gr X and critter dropped.

I know......bullet failure once again. Seems it's the thread topic of thread topics.

Thanks for the report and congrats to all. Nice pics all 'round. Pretty deer, that Axis.

I'm all but assumin' that my 100gr. TTSX's out of my 25-06 will do just fine. At 3,400 MV, it will surely have the HP to initiate expansion........

I now load the 130gr. TTSX in my son's 270WSM......I need a volunteer for that as well. Alas, this years well over.....

Kings start Thursday in the San Juans........fish-on!

I see some statements here concerning hitting bones....have people been having a problem with bones before the TSX?

Just asking cause I have never had any serious issues with bones....maybe just what I've been using....dunno

I am not smart enough to figure all this stuff out. Two of my guns shoot the TSX bullets really well, it kills stuff pretty good and so I am not going to worry about it one way or the other.

If something worked better than a Barnes I'd use it Bob.

Do you know what kind of load Bart Jr. is running in his 6?

Last year we pulled a few 100gr bullets from factory ammo and loaded some 85's on top of whatever that charge was.

This year I loaded 46grs of Hunter for the 85's.

Since the Sportsman's Warehouse closed up in Lexington, Ramshot is hard to come by. Sounds like a good one to try though.

UPS does deliver to Kentucky, don't they?

Dang you guys! Just when I think I'm about done sorting through rifles to find the bestest, most favoritest hunting rifles, you swingin' Richards come along with your pipsqueak varmint guns and lightweight TTSX bullets with no recoil. Now I am FORCED to go out and buy a 22-250 or 243 or 257 Bob, or all three, to see if you all are on Barnes' payroll, or just lying. I'll probably have to sell some of my 7x57 "big Guns" to finance this charade (pronounced "shuh-RAID" in these parts). I'll have to go to gun shows all winter and look at Kimbers, Rugers, Winchesters, and others trying to find that perfect balance of beauty, function, and price. I'll have to discuss it at length multiple times over supper and hunting videos with my gun slut enabler buddy, then he'll catch the disease too and we will end up trading guns back-and-forth several times. In the spring I will have to do load development and shoot a lot and trade guns a couple more times. The final proof will not come until about this time next year and we will have spent another year buying and trading guns, loading rounds, and shooting targets. The bill for this fiasco will come to $243,000 and I'll have to refinance the house again. Thanks a heckuva lot!

-

Doood...I'm sorry....




But I'll get over my remorse quickly...


Ingwe

I reckon so, never broke down and ordered powder or primers though. Hazmat, Shmazmat.

Well, on Saturday I chased around a nice 150ish buck, but couldn't seal the deal. I decided to do a mini-bullet test this year out of the .25-06. I shot 3 does, each with a different bullet. I used the Sierra GK, the TSX, and the TTSX- all 100gr bullets going roughly 3300fps.

The GK was a frontal shot at 45 yards that pulverized 4 ribs, the scapula, and the vitals, and never made it past the diaphragm. The deer ran 105 yards downhill and crashed into some bush.

The TTSX was on a nice MD doe that was at about 225 yards, quartering away. I hit her behind the shoulder, mid-way up, and the bullet exited out the neck. She dropped so fast that she literally fell on top of her own legs!

The TSX was a raking shot at about 250 yards, and the bullet entered the onside femur and exited behind the shoulder on the offside. The deer dropped immediately and lifted its head for about 3 seconds, before its head laid down permanently.

My brother shot his first deer, a nice fat WT doe, with a 130gr TTSX out of his .308 on Saturday. The shot was a quartering away shot at 30 yards, and the bullet hit the onside shoulder and exited the front of the chest. The front end of the deer fell to the ground, and she flopped 10 yards down the hill that she was standing on. I would post pictures of the blood trail she left on the bushes and small trees, but I might get in trouble for posting pictures of wonton bloody violence

My buddy shot a WT doe and 2 MD does with the 85gr TSX, all of which folded at the shot with no running involved.

Contrary to what some people report, I just can't seem to get animals to run away at all after I hit them with a TSX/TTSX bullet!

Great report and tests! I like hearing about that which I also use......especially when they're that effective......

Seems that all yout test bullets were effective, but the TTSX and TSX are still headed for parts unknown. Seems they also resulted in DRT's with authority......gotta like that!

Only gettin' to take one deer and one elk a year doesn't allow for much testing, not near as much as you've had anyway....... I'm a bit envious in that regard.

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm not surprised at your results, but it is nice to hear first hand.

Thanks again and enjoy your abundance of venison......sans all those lead particles and such.......laughin'.

Scott: Friends that used them here and Africa have been happy....I grabbed some 130 TTSX to try in the 06 with R17....winter project; I have not used them on any game yet

I am sold on their accuracy out of two of my rifles, and working on a third, they are expensive but what seems nice to me is to shoot a lighter bullet with less recoil and get the same or better results. I don't have much personal data on them regards game animals yet. The one I shot into the neck of my deer last Friday at about 25 yards resulted in the drop and twitch once or twice thing, the neck was completely pulped by the .25 cal 100 grain TSX over 46 grains of H4350....I did not recover the bullet...I have asked myself do I want to shoot a ballistic tip or a Barnes copper bullet and the answer always comes back penetration over explosivation for something I want to eat, on the other hand for varments...not so much...

jimmy: All that from that piss-ant little Roberts?

To all,

It seems that you are enjoying yourselves trying to prove something by counting white swans.

I suggest someone search out the piece by JB where animals travel further on average when hit with mono bullets.

I suggest you gain some real life experience or learn how to tell folks how to properly focus a scope.

Ingwe

Bob, welcome to the 270 Improved!!!

"I have seen a whole lot of game taken with TSX's. Most of the time they kill very well, but sometimes they do not, and when they don't the animal is likely to go a ways, in my experience further than with any other type of bullet."

Link to above quote from Mule Deer

"Which is exactly why, after 15+ years of using bullets like the Fail Safe, Barnes X, etc., I have gone back to using bullets like the common lead-core bullets (that cost half as much) for shooting deer. They kill quicker, on average. In fact, the quickest-killing bullets I have used on deer-sized game has been Berger VLD's, which open up violently.

Also, hollow-point "super penetrators" don't open up on occasion. I have seen this a number of times not just with X's but Fail Safes (and a lot of HP varmint bullets). Out of 150 TSX's I have seen used big game, 6 did not open."

Link to the above quote from Mule Deer

Compelling, but do you have an original idea or any experience?

No need to answer as I know the answer. You are forever a tool Donny

What Savage 99 said,works for me also.I liked the barnesxbut have not had good luck with the trippleshock bullets.

Dakota:But....but.....but!

That thought occured to me I must admit.......but I'm too emotionally attached to a 270 to ever admit that load and bullet from the 06 might be better....we're all entitled to our delusions

Oooh, don't know about that. A 270 is a different beastie with the 110 Barnes and yet again with the 80 Barnes.

S99 I have asked myself do I want to shoot a Lead core ballistic tip or a Barnes copper bullet and the answer always comes back penetration over explosivation for something I want to eat.

those that claim pencil holes, IMHO, are probably used to BT type holes.

All I can say to this is I run the 85 tsx out of a 6mm WOA, a 6.8 spc necked down, and fairly slow, IIRC its MV is around 2650 or so, maybe 2700.. I've killed deer out to almost 300 yards, around 280ish IIRC, they are all dead, all left a blood trail after the first hops generally of course, and I've run one lengthwise through a deer at over 200 yards and very dead.

Still never seen one not open.....

I also know from personal shots that I can shoot 150s out of a 300 wtby and hit deer at under 30 yards and not blow the bullet up, AND shoot 225s from a 338 and have them expand at 802 yards.... name me another bullet that can manage all that.

If you hate the TSX performance I suggest you look into the damage the bergers do then as the opposite end and something that might make you happy.

Me, they don't ruin much meat, and kill from any angle etc.... how can I go wrong?

Well, for someone that doesn't post much, I'm afraid what it might say about me considering that I'll throw in my 2 cents on a never-ending topic.

I have shot nearly every variety of X bullet (plain X, XLC, TSX, TTSX) since 1994 without any expansion issues. These have accounted for about 100 head of deer (mostly whitetails, but a few muledeer), a dozen antelope, two Rocky Mountain Goats, Alaskan Coastal Black Bear and, soon, (I'm booked for this summer), hopefully Namibian plains game. These animals were killed from as little as 50 yards to as many as 350 yards. These bullets, though, were fired in just a few calibers: .270 Winchester, .300 Wby and .338-06 Improved. I will also tell you that I know a variety of X bullet users with experiences very similar to mine.

Having said that, I still use cup and core bullets in rounds where I know shots might be long and the muzzle velocities are at or under 2700 fps. This includes an ancient .30-06 I inherited from my grandad and a neat little Sako Mannlicher in .308. It was mine and my daughter's experience with the .308 using 150 gr. Combined Technology Partitions on antelope that made me think that one can really have too much bullet.

While both antelope laid down fairly quickly after the first shot, both required follow-up shots even though they were hit squarely through the vitals. Both shots were longish--my daughter's was 250 yards and mine a tad over 300. In this gun, at this distance, the impact velocity was 2150 fps according to my RCBS ballistics program. In any event, entry and exit wounds were the same size. This was confirmed after skinning.

After we returned home, I did a wet newspaper test on the bullets. I learned that at 2150 fps impact velocity, the bullets barely opened confirming our antelope observations. It needed to be driven in excess of 2500 fps before the bullet significantly expanded. Cup and core bullets tended to show better performance in this admittedly very limited test (see huntaria.blogspot.com for images and details).

At the 2007 NRA show, I talked to a Nosler rep about my experience. He told me that those bullets were made to be driven in excess of 3000 fps. He told me they were intended for .300 mag users. I told him it would have been nice if they would have printed that on the box.

As for blood trails, I've seen great blood trails and poor blood trails with both types of bullets. Its mostly where you hit them and how far they run. Occasionally you will have something weird happen like have a chunk of fat block an exit wound. I've had this happen twice on deer: once with a 200 gr. .338 Ballistic Tip and another time using a 350 grain Hornady Round Nose from a modern Winchester 1885 in .45-70.

So, I guess my rambling response is that while I have had no issues with X bullets, my gut tells me faster is always better with monolithic style bullets. I suppose that's why I haven't used them at slower initial velocities (although I have a friend that used them to great success with his .30-06 in Africa last year). After the Combined Technology experience, I've decided that cup and core are fine when impact velocities are on the order of 2400 fps or less.

I will say I'm intrigued by the Berger observations. If anyone has made it this far without falling asleep, I wonder if there have been any type of modeling done (e.g., finite element analysis), to explain this apparent behavior.

Don't know what you mean by "finite element analysis," but a lot of testing has been done in various media that indicates the wound channel from any expanding bullet will have about the same volume. The difference is mostly in where the volume occurs.

With more violently expanding bullets, especially those that lose part or all of their weight, it occurs sooner in the wound channel. With bullets that retain more weight the volume is more evenly distributed--with the exception of bullets that expand very widely. But even those don't create the huge, immediate wound channel immediately behind the bullet entry of bullets that partially fragment. (The only exception here is the Berger VLD, which typically penetrates about 2" before expanding. All others start expanding immediately on impact.)

Some people don't believe that "media" is the same as shooting animals, and they are right. But many autopsies on animals show a correlation.

In general, forensic research, as well as a lot of animals shot by some bullet companies (especially in Europe and Africa, where it's possible to shoot several hundred culls in field testing) indicates that a bigger immediate wound channel tends to kill smaller big game animals quicker.

On bigger game, a longer, more even wound channel usually kills quicker. The VOLUME of the wound becomes greater because of its length, especially in the far lung--where a bullet that has expanded very violently in the near lung may not make much of a hole, or (on very rare occasions) not even make a hole at all, because it didn't get there.

This is the basic science behind expanding bullets, though because individual animals vary in many ways, there is no frim way any of them will react to any bullet.

First of all, I have enjoyed your writing for years. I appreciate your comments in reply.

Finite element analysis (FEA) is a mathematical method to solve equations describing complex domains with varying boundary conditions. Its used by a number of disciplines, but is probably best known for its mechanical engineering applications. For example, it is used to predict and model crumple zones in cars and was used to determine the failure mode of the Minneapolis interstate bridge.

The thing that you have described concerning the Berger bullet is what I find interesting; ie, expansion of the Berger bullet is arrested until penetration is well underway. And, while I don't understand it, I accept that this has been repeatedly observed. This is why I was curious if this behavior has been modeled (and in my way of thinking, with a bunch of engineers at bullet companies--I think Tim Janzen at Barnes is one, and I had him in mind when I asked the FEA question-- somebody is probably a mechanical engineer with access to FEA software and a mainframe). Is it the shape that is the difference and if so, what is the mechanism behind the delayed expansion? Anyway, I was curious if someone had looked at this from first principles and if so, if they could offer an explanation as to the difference.

I like your synopsis of how bullets work. Have you read Gregor Woods' account in "Rilfes for Africa"? I think he makes many of the points you make here. It is a very detailed account of bullet performance that I think most gun geeks (or Rifle Looneys) would appreciate.

Wow, glad I don't have to understand all that to kill stuff......grin

You know, I often get in my own way sometimes, when I should just be out shootin' at stuff

I can appreciate 'why' guys, but I've always been a 'Not important to know why, just important to know that it is' guy.

I am both.



Which explains why I'm confused so often.....


Ingwe

Why are you both?


Oops

I think we just found a whole nuter level of "BG" (ballistic gack). I like the method of load em up and fill up an ark, mucho better testing by my way of thinking.

Dober

Killing is the easy part of hunting.

I agree, tough part for some is just getting out there and getting it done...

Dober

Why did you say "Oops?" Thats like my dentist saying "oops"...it worries me...


I like to know first and foremost THAT things work...hate to find out the hard way....

Then I like to know how and why they work, so theoretically I can utilize them within their performance parameters, and hopefully derive maximum benefits from their capabilities..


Read that to mean..." If something goes wrong, I wanna know for sure its MY fault..."

Ingwe

Because I asked WHY

Good, thanks...breathing better already...

Ingwe

Mule Deer,

I could not agree with you more because your line of argumentation reflects my own experience so well... apart from being extremely consistent and logical.

I have seen two TSX that failed to open on an interior grizzly, whose pictures I posted in the past. I have seen an MRX split in two pieces after hitting the femur of a kudu bull, photos that I also posted, sending the left overs to Ty Herring, from Barnes.

Last year I would have lost an enormoues non typical roe deer hit broadside, square in the center of its chest cavity, with a 6.5 TTSX, were it not for my Bayerische Gebirg Schweiss Hund that could track it without a single drop of blood on the ground, only some hair that was found where it was standing (anchuss)...

Also, I have recovered a number of TSXs from 6.5mm to .416... so much for those who say the've shot a thou animals and never recovered one!

And so on.

How is it possible that from mere observation of our experiences people can arrive to so different conclusions, I ask you...

Best,

Gimme copper.........and lead

the TTSX did not penetrate the chest cavity and there was no blood! Was that their 120 grain bullet I just bought some TTSX bullets they must be very frangible!!

That's about where I stand. Especially, "was it my fault?" part.

Please don't take this any other way than but out of curiousity. I understand that no bullet is perfect and that given the nature of the game, no single style of bullet will ever match up to all possible outcomes. But, after experiencing such abject failures, why would you continue to use Barnes? Have you had any positive experiences with them? What style bullets have you had most success with?

Interesting that while a few folks have seen an issue or two, and most have never had an issue with barnes not working, comes along someone who has managed to see many failures and recover many barnes bullets.

I"ve found a petal once. And have an expanded 416 from a big Eland at over 200 yards, that went lengthwise and the skin finally stopped it. Other than that I find it rare that you can find a cup and core bullet, and have never found an X of any variety.

rost495, Hunaria Setters,

A bullet that does not pass through completely is not necessarily a bullet failure.

I continue to use Barnes bullets, Lutz Moellers KJG-S, and Gwerard Schults HV, but only when I feel I may need the extra penetration, when shooting a large animal (body wise) with smallish cartridge, for example.

In my opinion, penetration is a factor overrated by many as it is my experience that, if you shoot enough cartridge, a bullet that expands to a wider frontal diameter kills faster, regardless of the fact that it will not penetrate as deep.

And yes, I have recovered a few Barnes. I continue shooting them in cull hunts in Africa, in order to compare them side by side with other designs, for a better understanding of the killing mechanism related to expanding bullets.

These are 350gr .416 TSX



jimmyp,
The TTSX did pencil through with very little damage. There is no way I could have retrieved the deer it without the help of my dog.

these are 6.5mm TSX in 120gr

This one was found stuck in the backstrap of a cape buffalo, not knowing when and under what circumstances it had been shot. It had been shot broadside but did not penetrate to reach the vertebrae.



These two 180gr were the ones I mentioned that were recovered from a mtn. grizzly by a very good friend of mine. Probably the resutl of an inadequate twist rate and not the bullet fault.

except for the TSX on the right, that hit a quartering on mtn. zebra in the humerous, the other four bullets two TSX (front row)and two Interbonds (back row) where shot with my 7x65R at blue wildebeest and red hartebeest.

I know the TSX look beautiful, but guess which ones dropped the animals where they were standing.

I agree with this statement.I have held this view myself for quite some time.

Also interesting is your reference to twist,and I assume you were refering to twist as assisting in facilitating more rapid and complete bullet expansion;if I'm mistaken in that assumption,the comment is withdrawn

Interesting post.

Interesting and excellent pics BBerg...thanks for going to the trouble of posting them...

Is it just me or do the two unopened TSXs look a bit Bronze-ish??



Ingwe

very complete study BBerg, thank you for sharing this information.

I find the twist comment interesting as well. I don't know for sure but I don't really feel that within reason it'd be a big factor in a bullet opening up. Would it...?

Thx
Dober

I think as a whole we are stuck with too slow of twists in rifles. Folks are slow to change from the twists that got Jack O and Elmer there. Bullets have changed.

Inadequate twist rate (read too slow) would mean the bullet weren't fully stabilized and might not have hit exactly point on.

I'd think, that if it wasn't properly stabilized it'd show up in how it shot at short and long distances though.

Dober

I'd think so also, but we are assuming it was shot on paper at long distances and/or the person shooting knows what they are looking at.

Not inferring anything about the shooter but nuances are easily missed at 100 yards and seldom checked by the majority of folks further out. But I'm just guessing.

True story, it just got me to thinking as I've seen 3 TSX's not open and yet they all shot very well close and far.

Got me thinking for a minute anyway, and that's not something that happens very often..

Dober

I wonder if perhaps, just perhaps, Barnes is still having some troubles with quality control on their raw materials(i.e., the hardness of the copper)leading to occasional failures to expand??

I am not digging on Barnes here, as I like their bullets, for the most part...

Huntaria Setters,

Glad you enjoy the articles! And thanks for the explanation of finite element analysis.

I don't know if anyone has conclusively proven how the VLD's delay expansion. The most common "educated guess," though, involves the combination of a very sharp, long ogive and a very thin jacket. The tip of the ogive is not filled with lead; instead there's an air-pocket air just behind the point. And the tip is NOT a hollow-point, as many assume. Instead the jacket is completely swaged shut. There is a tiny "hole" visible, left after the swaging, but you can't fit the point of even a small safety pin into it.

The best guess is that this long, sharp, essentially solid point allows the bullet to pierce the hide, meat and even bone, but that the jacket is so thin that eventually the tip collapses, perhaps opening the swaged-shut point in the process.

The core is also essentially pure lead, rather than the more typical 3-5% antimony alloys used in just about every other big game bullet. So once the point of the bullet collapses, usually about 1-1/2" to 2" after entry, the bullet expands violently, sometimes even coming totally apart. This is the reason for the terrific wound cavity and quick kills.

People who haven't seen this sometimes just don't get it, partly because they've been told for so long that a bullet MUST stay together. They also don't get the part about VLD's not expanding until they're inside the animal.

In fact, the entry hole is so small it's often very difficult to find. It looks more like the jab of a knitting needle. When several of us shot a bunch of animals in New Zealand while testing the VLD, we performed a number of field autopsies. Sometimes we had to look for several minutes to find the entry wound, even if we knew about where it was! In every case the bullet did not start expanding until it had gone a couple inches or so inside the animal, even when it hit bone.

On occasion Campfire members have posted photos of the holes made in various animals by different bullets, usually to illustrate the vast damage. One that's appeared a number of times is of a zebra's heart with a big hole in it. Well, I shot a red stag in New Zealand with a 185 VLD from a .30-06, 250 yards across a canyon. The bullet hit the stag's heart and turned it inside out. There was nothing left of the heart but a flap of muscle that, when laid on the ground, was about a foot long and no more than 1-1/2" thick. It was not recognizable as a heart, other than where we found it inside the red stag.

That bullet, by the way, did not exit. In fact all we found of it was some pieces of jacket (including the base) resting against the inside of the rib cage on the far side. Yet the stag died more or less instantly. It was bedded down at the shot, and when struck tipped its head back for maybe 3 seconds, then rolled down the mountain about 30 feet before coming to rest.

Every other expanding bullet on the market begins to expand as soon as it hits something, whether test media or an animal. This has been proven many times over; the degree of expansion and amount of "shrapnel" created (if any) are the differences in performance.

I have read Gregor Woods' RIFLES FOR AFRICA a couple of times. I was quite impressed with it, as he obviously brings a lot of experience and considerable powers of observation to a subject that is often filled with unproven assumptions.

Hey Ken,

I was actually somewhat surprised that the TSX/TTSX bullets resulted in nothing but DRT's, but the Sierra GK (which entered the front of the chest and turned into a hand grenade, DESTROYING the vitals) resulted in the longest run after the hit by far.

Thanks for your well wishes. Let me know if you ever want to do a little bit more bullet testing, and I'll make some room for you in the "meat wagon".

bberg

You sure seem unlucky. Thats a heck of a stash of recovered X type bullets! Wondering if you are shooting the light for caliber theory and that ping pong ball just doesn't do it as well as a standard weight would possibly?

JB

I"m still scared of the Bergers but have a box of 180 non hunting ones in 7mm that I'll try in my 7x300 this year hopefully. If they go in and blow up, that would be ok, if they stopped inside the ribcage. How often do they blow out the other side and just leave lots of damage and large holes? Folks at Berger suggested that if I was afraid of meat loss and large holes I definitely shouldn't use Bergers and I appreciate the candor.
Also whats your take on a raking shot with the bergers, if you had to drop one in the flank etc... are they simply a precision placement bullet or do you feel they are an all around one?

At least the folks at Berger did say try the non hunting version for my uses as its not gonna blow up as bad....

All killed, cant buy into the theory of having the need to drop them on the spot.

I have a few (5) recovered X/TSX bullets, as well. All are perfectly expanded, and all were recovered from our large, Alberta deer on quartering or lengthwise shots, calibers include the .243 and 7mm. Each of the bullets resulted in the instant drop and quick death of the animal in question, and was recovered only after penetrating several feet of deer. One point of interest is that I've recovered bullets from the .243 Win (85gr) and the 7mm Rem Mag (160gr), but I've never recovered a bullet from the .25-06 (100gr), even though I have fired several into some large animals (up to 500lbs) at some pretty steep angles, including direct frontal shots as well as shots at animals that were facing directly away.

Here is one that entered the rear end of a large WT buck, smashed the femur, penetrated the abdominal and thoracic cavities, broke the humerus, and ended up buried in the muscle of the offside front shoulder, barely under the hide.

rost,

I wouldn't use a VLD on a raking shot. They simply don't penetrate far enough. They are good on any shot that enters the rib cage, though.

Whether they exit or not depends a lot on the size of the animal. They'll almost always exit on animals up to about 150 pounds or so,the reason I am pretty particular about bullet placement if I want the meat. On a broadside rib shot they work fine, which is their forte. Size of the bulet has some effect too. I am quite happy with bullets like the 115 .25 and 140 6.5 on deer. They kill well but if they do exit don't make near as much of a mess on the other side.

but as the animals get bigger it's less likely. Of the four 400-pound red stags taken in New Zealand, for instance, two bullets exited and two didn't. (The stags that retained the bullets died quicker, by the way, though they all died pretty darn quickly.) But even if the bullet--or, more likely, bullet parts--does exit on a bigger animal often the meat damage isn't much because it's slowed down so much.

The non-hunting version may not kill as quickly as the hunting version, by the way. Dunno, as i have only used the hunting version.

The VLD's might not fit your shooting. I use them but only for certain types of hunting--just as I also use the TSX (and TTSX) for only for certain types of hunting.

The TSX that failed to expand is very likely to have tumbled upon hitting the bear.

If you look carefully you may notice that one of the bullets is slightly banana shaped.

A bullet is much more difficult to keep travelling head on in animal tissue than in the air, that meaning that a too slow twist may not be detected while shooting on paper.

A bullet with some yaw due to an improper twist that impacts at a less than ideal angle is very likely to tumble.

Ingwe, the bronz-ish look is just because of the light and how the pictures came from the camera.

Rost495, the 6.5s are 120, the 7mms are 150gr, the .308s are 180gr... not really light for caliber, specially in the days of 110gr .277s or 130gr 308s. Not heavy, either. And another thing, if there was no difference between killing an nimal dead where he was standing and killing him anywasy, we would all be shooting solids.

Best regards,

BBerg

Yea, but did it tumble because it didnt expand in the first place? My guess is yes.I dont think twist has anything to do with it.

Methinks twist is the root of many evils.

No, I don't believe incomplete penetration equates with bullet failure. Non-expansion can, as you noted elsewhere, be disasterous.

I really do believe that good old fashion cup and core bullets have their place. It depends upon impact velocity and game. I do some custom loading for bean field deer hunters here in western KY and most have had great success with (gasp!) Nosler ballistic tips. Most of these deer are shot well in excess of 200 yards. And most drop dead immediately regardless of the existence of exit wounds.

I started using X bullets because when I lived in WV because it was not unusual to kill deer off the end of a gun barrel at the end of a deer drive. I learned pretty quickly that your common Core-Lokt would distentegrate on impact.

As you can see, my experience is mostly on the smaller North American stuff (no moose or brown bear yet). Since I am on my way to my first Eland hunt (Namibia in July), I would be interested to what you would think about a 250gr TSX in my Sako Mannlicher (20" barrel) .375. I figure I will get around 2600 fps or so out of it. The only other thing I used this rilfe on was bear where I used a 300 gr Hornady RN at 2400 fps. This worked pretty well too, but I would like to be able to potentially take a 300 yard shot without the attendant holdover required by a 300 gr bullet. Anyway, the comments and suggestions of the Campfire crowd would be most welcome.

Thank you for your description of the Berger. That does answer some of my questions. For some reason or another, I was under the impression that the Berger held together. As long as the vitals are destroyed, that's all that matters.

BWalker,

All expanding bullets tumble much more than most hunters realize. It may have something to do with twist, especially with a solid, but not much with an expanding bullet.

OK...we need to petition the guys at "Time Warp" on the discovery channel to slo mo some TSXs at different speeds and twist rates....cause I can sure see how they wouldnt open if they hit at an oblique...

Interesting theory guys....made me think too...

Ingwe

Does a 10 twist per foot twist faster when it enters the animal. I don't understand the statement. The rate of turn should never change right? If a bullet leaves a barrel turning at 10 turns per foot it will do this until it strikes something or hits dirt. I've been loading some of these TSX bullets and I do see increased speeds coming out my 378 ==300 TSX. ONly problem is that I have a band exactly at COAL and it gets the odd grimp which pisses me off.

Expanding bullets tend to tumble because the "mushroom" makes them less stable. The front end becomes bigger than the rear end, so they act more less like an open umbrella pointed into the wind. This can stay mushroom forward, but if anything tilts them somewhat sideways they can flip around and tumble.

This isn't often seen when testing in media because most test media is homogeneous, so there's nothing to upset the equilibrium of the bullet. But it happens quite a bit inside animals. In fact, it's quite possible for a bullet to tumble completely and end up mushroom-forward under the hide on the far side, like a car that flips and ends up on its tires again.

A bullet is less likely to tumble if a long shank remains behind the mushroom, but it still happens now and then. Bullets that mushroom widely and end up looking like an irregular ball or a really short mushroom, are of course more likely to tumble.

A lot of this doesn't really matter because a tumbling bullet still tears hell out of an animal's insides. In fact it might very well do more damage.

I have seen some threads on the Campfire where somebody found a bullet that was rear-end front when recovered on the far side of an animal, and the poster then went into a rant about how they would never use that bullet again because it tumbles. Trouble is, I have heard that about almost every bullet on the market.

Just today I was talking to Charlie Sisk, who had recommended TSX's to a guy for a pig hunt in Texas. The first pig shot was a big boar and the bullet stopped under the hide on the far side, shank end out. The guy was realy upset and swore he would never use that dang bullet again, even though the pig died very quickly.

Or the lack thereof

John......Thanks for the input..Ive seen some of that phenomena myself...

But what I was thinkin is that the bullet may be yawing before impact,setting off a tumble instead of a 'shroom on impact...


Does that sound plausible??


Ingwe

I'm convinced of it.

If a bullet is yawing severely before impact it usually doesn't open. I have seen this with more than one brand of bullet too. Generally it has to hit something else before it hits the animal for this to happen, though.

Ok John....even if the twist/speed isnt right to stabilize, and our intrepid hunter is awash in ignorant bliss???


( its been known to happen....)


Ingwe

Not what I'd assumed, you are right, decent weights for caliber. Squashes one theory that way anyway.
Of course I'll agree to disagree on the DRT thing. I'm much more complete penetration since you never know what a bullet does upon impact, etc.... I'm a boy scout -- prepare for the worst, accept the best. I am tied up in good bullets that will penetrate stem to stern, more so than how they open up. IE I'd rather work a hole through the complete animal, than risk a big hole in only one lung type of deal. As JB states some of the bullets are not good for raking shots and since I can't control what I might get or not....

Anyway IMHO too many folks are also to tied to having DRT. Kinda pizzes me off since it appears they are too lazy to track, don't know how to track etc... Tracking after the shot is part of the hunt to me. And even if the animal falls right there its rarely instantly dead anyway so bleed out and thrash in place or run a short ways and keel over, its all the same to me.
Now if its a nice deer to clean that I'm worried about I'll head shoot em every time and that is a DRT. But I do it since its so much nicer to clean on than having the gore blown all through the cavity.

Just my different take on life.

BTW I agree on slow twists, I err on the fast side if I have a choice and have rarely seen anything negative from that.

Jeff,

If you like to track 'em, then you've chosen the perfect bullet for your style of hunting!

Sorry. Couldn't resist. Carry on gents.

Jeff, both,

One of the virtues, perhaps the major one, of the X type bullet is that they don't generally do a lot of generalized damage but push it out over a longer narrow path. (I have long likened bullet damage to balloons; most cored bullets make a somewhat round balloon shape area of trauma while the monoliths make the skinny, shape-tying type balloon path.) And, as has been pointed out a number of times, they don't as often bloody up a whole bunch of meat. This means that a person can drive them through parts of an animal that one might prefer to avoid with a cored bullet: bones, in other words. Used this way, I always thought, based on experience soley with the earlier X versions, that they had a high rate of quicker drops and very rapid, humane kills. (Barnes was never much impressed by anything I shared in regard to such experience, or perhaps they were too busy to respond to silly snail mail.)

One thing you can't count on when hunting the bigger animals is that impact energy will impress a creature. Often, especially if a first bullet is absorbed without severe reaction, a large animal can take a tremendous amount of bullet energy. The one thing that will certainly affect them, however, is to break major bones. A number of bullets are capable of that, but the Barnes and similar designs, I'm sure, must be at the top of the heap in doing such deeds with aplomb.

I had this very problem with 22-250 with 55 gr. bulllets;
they would hit a blade of grass, and actually go unstable, and 'detonate'; (the bullet actually explodes) (it cant keep it's self together)

I think Scott is correctly nibbling around the edges of this.

I'll post this FWIW and then forget it because I don't want to get into a discussion about it with those crunching numbers as opposed to those who have actually fired bullets into stuff to see actual results.Everyone is free to theorize as they wish.

When I started using BBC's back in the early 80's, Bill Steigers (formerly a ballistician with Speer before he started making his own bullets)told me that his bullets operated and performed best at very high velocity,and the fastest practical twist.Those that own BBC's will note a little card listing recommended minimum velocities and minimum twist requirements for best results.

Due to their bonding to pure lead cores,and very heavy jackets,Steigers found in developing the BBC that faster than normal twists,in conjunction with high velocity assisted in facilitating more rapid and complete expansion of the bullets; and that a faster twist also helped the bullet maintain a point-on attitude as the bullet expanded and crashed through varying densities of animal tissue and bone,helping to keep the bullet going straight while expanding to a very broad mushroom.

So if you bought BBC's and were buliding a rifle for hunting(not target shooting),you got the Steigers lecture on having your 375 made with a 1/10 twist,a 30 cal or 7mm or 270 with a 1/9;some went as fast as 1/8 in these calibers.Steigers also cautioned that these faster twists would likely tear up standard bullets,even at reduced velocities because construction was inadequate to withstand the high roational forces coupled with impact velocity.

I did what I was told and built 30 cal and 7mm rifles with 1/9 twists,but also used BBC's in slower twist rifles in the same calibers.I have some recovered from animals where impact velocities were roughly the same,and it is apparent that the bullets fired in the faster twist barrels have shown a difference in the expanded form,with the petals clearly pulled out a a greater angle,with some others at a standard 90 degrees.These of course are not tests since it very hard to duplicate shot to shot in an animal,just my observations of recovered bullets which tends to agree with what Steigers recommended and predicted as results.

On another note there is floating around in an early Handloader or Rifle ,an article by (IIRC Dave Andrews,I think it was him)another Speer ballistician who did bullet expansion tests to determine the effects of twist on expansion and wound cavitation;and his results correlated with Steigers;faster twists help bullets expand more completely,and there was even a dramatic effect upon wound cavity size from the faster twist bullets.He did his experiments in clay so they would hold the original wound channel.You can get the details in the articles.

I know this is a highly controversial subject, so have no intention of engaging in lengthy conversations defending any of it;especially with the mathematically inclined because I don't consider such evaluation worth anywhere near as much as actual shooting of the bullets; and I'll string along with Steiger anyway because his bullets are not substantially improved upon by anything being made today.

And how much all of this will effect a Barnes bullet or a Berger I have no idea,since both are completely different animals from a BBC;and it may be impossible to see these effects with bullets like BT's or AB's because neither one is a true bonded bullet,and guilding metal jackets with alloy cores will be unlikely to stand the strain and retain enough of the original bullet to see the effect,being too brittle and likely to lose weight at high forward/rotational velocity....So the next time your X bullet or something else does not expand the way it should...or your CC bullet comes unglued...it just might be that too much or too little twist might have had something to do with it

So there it is..have fun

maybe just like this one...



it is a 180gr old Core Lokt. it is the one on the left in the picture below.

Bob, thanks for the post...makes sense to me.
I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion on this either but I do enjoy the nuances that make me think about stuff...
And to keep it on a laymans level...I can easily see where a tight twist and high speed can make a conventional cnc bullet come apart...( noted it myself some years ago shooting the same 55 gr. load in a .223 with a 1 in 12 twist,and another with a 1 in 7..)
I can also envision...if not theorize...that some of these unopened TSXs we have seen pics of could have been yawing on contact,due to a possible twist/speed issue, and hence tumble on impact instead of open...don't really know...but as Dober says...its a thunk...

Ingwe


BTW; Bberg...You 'da man when it comes to pics!!! Cool beans!

An animal not falling on its tracks does not necessarily mean you will have a problem, but an animal falling on its tracks is never a problem.

In Europe it is quite common to use a tracking dog to retreive wounded game, and there are breeds specially developed for the task, like my Bayerische Gebirg Schweiss Hund, Polka that I alwasy bring along when stalking.

Here are two pictures of her, a funny one in which she seems to be using my Leica spotting scope, and another one with a non typical buck that she retreived last May and that I would have never found without her help due to a TTSX not expanding.

Ingwe: It's offered in the context of..."think about this(?)"....as opposed to any absolutes

I've sat at the range and watched a buddy's 264 Win Mag turn 90 gr HP's (IIRC),to blue smoke trails down range...he used to do it for entertainment as .."Hey lets go blow up some 90 gr HP's for fun...".Speculation was that it was the fast twist and high rotational velocity that pulled them apart....I dunno.

Anyway Steigers was sure convinced.....gawd knows he tested them enough to know......

Bob; Thanks again...it is thought provoking....and it is WAYYYYY too early with too little caffiene for me to think in absolutes... so no worries there!

BBerg; Very cool Roe Buck! I also have quite an interest in tracking dogs....they are very slowly gaining favor in this country...where their use is legal...I wish it was a lot more prevalent, my dog has sure saved us a lot of trouble over the years....

Ingwe

Hey, I"ll leave ya'll on this one, we can banter back and forth, bottom line use a bullet that will work, IMHO 2 holes are better than 1, and put it in the right spot and all will be fine. Tracking or not.

Jeff

Agreed!

I gotta go now too...

Ingwe

OK.

Here's something to grind on for a bit.

Where I shoot I have an aspen cutting (half a mile) for backstop. I have started looking for bullets in the aspens after accidentally spotting one. I have recovered a dozen or so Barnes bullets in various calibers and weights. I have one .243 Barnes recovered point first and one .224 caliber Barnes recovered point first.

All the rest were embedded butt first into the trees. That is beyond chance. I also see a partial expansion of the Barnes Bullets.

This leads me in the direction of suspecting that rotation is still a stabilizing factor, and that the partial expansion is acting like a drag causing the bullet to have a propensity to stabilize traveling backwards.

The degree of stabilization would seem not to be very high since the bullet would seem unlikely to deform on initial impact in a manner that would provide uniform distribution of weight about it's longitudinal axis and have uniform resistance to the air. Indeed, I have observed varying degrees of "butt first" embedding. The cup and core bullets recovered were far fewer and showed no orientation preference. In fact, all but one had shed their cores.

In the month since I have discovered this I have given much thought to how to explore it further. My suspicions are that wet (green grass) will be enough to initiate this, and that dry (dead grass without dew or heavy frost) may as well, but at a much lower level. I suspect that some amount of water is necessary to expanding a Barnes much but that even dry grass can make it turn, and that they can stabilize much better than one might think when they are traveling backwards. I can say that a Barnes striking an oak butt first does not show enough butt damage to be obvious that it hit butt first once removed. I have not measured bases to determine if any upset was present though.

As has so often been the case, I have learned a great deal more by listening.

I appreciate all the responses, and especially the photographs.

So often the discussion of the TSX (or the Nosler BT, for that matter.) turns into an argument.

I was mainly interested in knowing at the outset whether the results I were seeing were typical.

Thanks again.
CT

Spin cannot stabilize bullets in flesh because flesh is more dense than air. Also because flesh and bone vary in density, and bullets don't always expand into symetric shapes (the "perfect mushroom") in flesh like they do in ballistic gelatin. Sorry, but I cannot buy into the idea that the mushroom itself makes bullets less stable. If that were true, expanded bullets would routinely tumble in ballistic gelatin. The re-entry vehicle used in the Apollo space program was designed (like a mushroom) so it would maintain it's attitude with the heat shield forward. Point-forward is the more unstable attitude/shape than blunt-nose-forward. No offense intended.

-

Good points dude!

This thread HAS made me think....

Ingwe

Big Redhead,

Sorry, but your analogy just doesn't pack it, no offense intended.

Even bullet that has expanded "perfectly" is far less symmetrical than an Apollo space capsule, and is entering the atmosphere through VERY thin air, rather than plowing through the varied bone and organs of an animal, which include really tough heart muscle and really soft lung tissue.

There is also the matter of balance. I believe the Apollo capsules are designed with far more weight in the wide base, but a bullet doesn't have this advantage. In fact the mushroom often weighs far less than the shank.

Plus, bullets do sometimes tumble even in homogeneous test media, particularly if they enter at an angle. But it happens sometimes even when they enter perpendicularly. As I noted above, the most unstable expanded bullets are those that expand the widest.

As I have read through posts, generally the smaller rifles shoot smaller tsx, they open a lot more than the larger ones using 180+. My son shot elk 30-06 with 165 tsx and dropped him. The better the bullets become - don't need larger grain except for big animals.

I use a different bullet, shot nice animals with 165 last year but didn't like the opening's, dropped down to 150gr this year and a big difference. 30-06 on deer..

MD,

If you think expanded bullets are unstable, try shooting a FMJ into gelatin.

-

the light(er) for caliber TSX bullets seem to be the ticket!

+1

I might have missed it, but what cartridge were BB's two unopened 180 TSX's from?

My own un-opened sample was a 150 TTSX from a 308 Win with 1-12" twist which performed flawlessly out to 550 yards on paper... just when it hit an elk at 170 yards did it act funny by not opening and tumbling.

This thread once again sort of confirms the religious like devotion some have to the Barnes bullets. By "religious, I mean "turn off brain, ignore a LOT of contrary evidence."

I think they're a great BIG, big game bullet 95% of the time...

I wonder if we could do actually do an honest poll on this forum:

A. I had a Barnes TSX or TTSX not expand, tumble, and found the bullet in the dead animal

B. I lost an animal I thought I hit well with a Barnes TSX or TTSX

C. I have shot animals and killed them with Barnes bullets and have not found the bullet as it penetrated completely.

Wonder if A and C would be the two big hitters?

It also reminds me that LOTS of folks have blinders. Just cuzz yours worked fine with that twist don't mean that twist, or lack of, isn't a problem in other instances.

A. Never

B. Never

C. Have only recovered one Barnes to date that I've fired, an original 85gr X. Have pulled other TSX's out of critters that I've seen shot by others. Never pulled one that didn't expand.

I've only recovered two TSX's... a 168 TSX from a 1-10" 30-06... performed flawlessly, and a 150 TTSX from a 1-12" 308 Win. Didn't perform well at all. Other animals I've shot with them were mixed. Some had little internal damage, others had tremendous damage.

Leads me to believe sometimes they work as advertised, and other times they don't, but in a far higher percentage of "don't" than any other bullet I've used or am acquainted with, barring the old X's or Failsafes.

I have no bone to pick... I've used Barnes bullets since the early 90's and "want" to be a true believer. What I've seen has soured me.

Fine, but I have no contrary evidence. Have yet to have one not perform for me nor for any of my friends that use them.

I can't guess what others do, hell you might load them backwards for all I know....grin

All I know is what I've seen with my own two eyes and I trust my eyes and brain far more then the typed word of someone I haven't a clue how they do things. Hell, you could just as easily be the east of the Rockies version of JO.....

what I'm gathering is - if a bullet doesn't preform is do to - to much/little speed, to little/much twist, and the gr of the bullet. Distance does have a factor also. If you find a combination that works and preforms - stay with it...

I'm also of the belief of pushing lighter than 'normal' for caliber X bullets as fast as you can for best results on normal sized critters.

What Gr. would you suggest for a 308 for mule deer/elk?

Thanks

I've never hunted either but I'm throwing 130's in my 308 and 300 Savage.

Fine, You don't believe me, Mark Dobrenski or Chuck Nelson, let alone the visual evidence on this thread alone. The grizzly bear 180's look EXACTLY like mine, Chuck's and Mark's.

I'd never get on a boat with someone that needs to see a hurricane to believe there is such a thing if they'd never experienced one firsthand...

Because...?

What do the lighter, faster ones do "best"?

Wonder why folks ever get married, cuzz a 50% divorce rate would lead one to think it should NEVER be done.


Course I didn't say I didn't believe that you had recovered said bullets in said shape. All I know is I don't know all the variables in your situation and I've yet to experience a like problem.

I can give you plenty of visual evidence that is exactly opposite of yours.

Smack the [bleep] out of things.

And the point being Brad, don't consider it 'blind faith'. Are you going to stop using Nosler Partitions if I can get you 3 guys that have a picture of a failed Partition?

I know what has worked for me and I'm not about to change it based on another persons 'experiences', else I be labeled a sheep....

Of course you can... and so can I.

Can also give plenty of evidence to support the idea that in 5% of situations (or whatever the number) something ain't right.

Have personally seen far more of it with the "cavity expanders" (X,TSX,TTSX,Failsafe) than all other bullets combined.

When I pay $35 a box for a bullet I expect something that will deliver nearly every time.

Nothing mechanical is 100%, of course. I've seen a few Nosler Partition failures on the internet, though none personally or with any friends. That doesn't mean they don't happen.

But, I'm also convinced they happen as a smaller percentage of game shot than the X-type bullets.

And I don't believe that's a guess...

Anything and everything built by man will fail at some point. I've not seen anything firsthand to change my thinking on a Partition or a Barnes so I'm not about to change, as I've not had a problem with either in 25 some odd years.

BTW there Steelhead, I've got a few PM's from a prominent gunwriter that posts here describing various TSX failures like mine that aren't mentioned on this thread... wonder why?

I've never lost a animal with any Barnes or Nosler product.Used to use those 250gr 338 X-Bullet while working as a guide.Good bullet that old X.

I've got a few from a cable guy, tax attorney and lineman that have had perfect track records with the Barnes. Don't mean anything more or less then someone with their name in the masthead.


Course you could begin to quote E and Don if that helps any.

Ah yes, religious fervor... a thing to behold. Turns seemingly intelligent people into dumbazzes.

Seems you are the only one that is beating the drum and calling names. I'd have been fine if you don't start off with the 'blind' thing.

Glad I only need to make myself happy.

I have never had a problem killing anything with a Gameking or a B-Tip... Im thinking that if most guys obsessed with shooting in the off season as much as they do bullets they wouldnt need much more than a Gameking.
BTW to the comment on relishing a tracking job. I want to dispatch the animal asap and I consider it poor shot placement if I have a kill result in a lengthy tracking job.

Good for you!

Is being real good at tracking sort of like having a great sand game because when you play golf you're in the bunker all the time?

Just funnin' rost.

What he really means is that he's hopeing that if he can push them to the limits they might actually expand..

Yep, that's it because it's apparent that Brad has seen the light and it is good. He has passed on the word and the word is good.

We should all be sheep to make Brad happy, just watch your bung hole.

So a heavier TSX doesn't do that as well?

Deer sized critters seem more impressed with stuff going fast. I've had more stuff drop quickly when using little bullets pushed at warp speed.

A heavier Barnes seems to kill like a heavier Partition say for smaller critters.

I still experience less bloodshot stuff when smacking things with a Barnes than any other bullet I've used. I have no qualms shooting bone with an 85gr X doing 3350 but I would with a like BT, Sierra etc.

I'm sure I'm the anomaly here, but the only bullet I have had fail to expand was a Ballistic tip.

I am on Steelhead's side in this one. I personally think that Barnes 130s and a .308 Winchester is perfect with Barnes 130 grain TTSXs. I would much rather have those bullets in a .308 than 180s for anything. Anything!

I have seen many cup and core bullets (including partitions) deflect badly inside animals. I have seen quite a few lead core bullets shed their cores. When those things happen and turn what would be a mortal shot into a non-fatal wound ( or take much longer to kill) I consider that to be a bullet failure. I have never seen either situation happen with a Barnes. I have never seen a Barnes not open in an animal. The Barnes experience is getting close to fifty animals. The cup and core experience is a lot more.

I am very intrigued by two such different experiences. It does not seem possible that random chance is at work here.

Since I started loading in '55, I have never had better bullets than I have today. The Barnes are the best I have used. They are just flat out uniform and perform much more uniformly that anything else I have ever used. The two different experiences with the same bullets begs an explanation.

Dave

Steelhead tells use he's never recovered a Barnes.

As far as I can tell he shoots black bear and deer. Neither is much of a bullet stopper IME. They're what most would call the smaller variety of big game. Lightly boned, relatively easy to kill.

I wonder how many unopened Barnes Bullets have zipped right on through Steelheads deer? He certainly doesn't know.

Sure, shoot out the lungs, even with a pencil, and things will die. I just hate rolling the dice on $0.85 bullets when I know more consistent options exist for the same or less money.

In fact, I really can't see the point of a premium for either, unless hunted in Brown Bear country...

I've shot enough game with the "monolithic expanders" to know that usually they work, and sometimes they don't.

As I said, I've used them since the early 90's and early on thought they were manna from heaven... after enough years with them, I see them as a design that are usually very accurate and usually work well, are expensive, and fail more often than any other bullet I've been around.

Never said I've never recovered a Barnes, looks like your reading skills are inline with about everything else.

Maybe you can quote the writer, we already have Don quoting one. I don't believe Don has ever seen a Barnes, much less shot anything with one. Seems you Connecticut boys stick together like a hound in a bitch on a hot Mississippi July evening.

All you need now is to get E quoting from Chapter 9, verse 6 from the book of optics and you boys will have the perfect trifecta.

Not sure if this one expanded or not, maybe Brad can help me with that.

Must be tough having 1 year of experience 49 times, but you do stupid well.

Wow, what a prick.

Ok. Has recovered one bullet... I still contend deer and black bears aren't much of a test of bullet design...

Best to type looking at the screen, not the mirror.

What did Dober's bullet not open on?

Granted, but that don't make my experiences any less wrong of different. If it helps you to think of the world as flat, have at it.

Guys I trust, key word is guys, have used them plenty on plenty of other [bleep] besides deer and bear. Never heard of a problem from them either.

Never seen me type what I would or wouldn't use on Elk, since I've never hunted the damn things. You are funny, funny little yankee man. Paul was correct, just directed at the wrong person.

Yep, cuzz if they open in 12" of deer that don't mean they will open in 12" of elk.

Seems to me that poor shooting on your part ain't much of a test either, but I forgot you are perfect.

This one don't count either, he had very light bones.

Nice moose.

You're still a mean drunk.

Nice Moose, who's is it?

That would be funny if I was drinking. Amazing what folks don't know. Even if it were true I'd be sober in the morning, you'll still be a dumbphuck.

God's, but I kilt it.

I never knew....cool.

Digital pic of a photo, came out pretty good. Don't have a scanner.

If you really want to know, perhaps you should set aside some time and funds from your "shooting through brush" science project and test a Barnes on a critter, "in the interest of science".

These two quotes seem to be typical of "before" and "after" deals with the X design - perhaps more so than any other bullet. (I guess I should say "after" and "before" since that is how they appear.) They are a bullet which is admired for how they work and do their best work consistently. Unfortunately their sometimes poor performance can be a discouraging contrast to that.

As for the "old" X, those who recall that era will probably remember that the bullet did not have a strong following among the e-crowd. So much "ink" was spent disparaging their accuracy issues that few realized how well they actually worked when they hit game - most of the time- just like the ringed "T" versions that are accurate and are suddenly "the best thing since sliced bread" (until one sees them do something which casts a tarnish on their golden image.)

The truth is that their is no "golden" perfect bullet; what is less obvious to many is that anyone worth their salt should have no trouble collecting their harvest with any of today's hunting bullets assuming proper application and selection of bullets. It is really up to the hunter to make a good choice. I could as easily get by without the X or similar designs as I could if they were the only thing we had.

Brad,
The un expande bullets that were recovered from the grizzly bear where shot with from an old 300 WinMag.
I sent the pictures to Gerhard Schultz, manufacturer of the GS Custom bullets, and by a careful study of the groove prints on the shanks he concluded twist was 1:12 instead of the now standard 1:10".
BBerg

I am now shooting the 130 grain TTSX out of a new 1-12 twisted Kimber Montana over 47 grains of TAC, very accurate. I have not tested this bullet yet on live game, but maybe before the end of the year. In the last two years I have seen 2 cup and core bullet "failures" as well. Those were shot from 30-06 rifles but were found in the dead animals, simple small deer of less than 170 pounds. One was a 165 grain bullet loaded by WW, the other a 150 grain Hornady loaded in their "light magnum", both shooters use store bought cartridges both shots were under 50 yards.

I guess failure could be construed as "failure" to penetrate fully as well?

It would seem that when discussing bullets that the fact that both of these animals were hit at the intended spot, did not go over 100 yards after being shot, and were found dead does not matter.

So for the thousands of bullets that are fired every year at game animals, what percentage of animals are "lost" due to bullet construction vs. what percentage are lost due to poor hits? This we will never know because here on the Campfire as no one likes to admit to a poor hit.

It would be interesting to ask what percentage of failures in total where the animal is not recovered at all or had to be shot multiple times can be attributed to Nosler Partitions versus the Barnes TSX?

Somewhere on these forums I am thinking that I have read that some animals had to be shot more than once with partitions, but perhaps I am wrong.

My favorite new story that I heard while traveling in early November included this exchange between the man who was telling me about a recent hunt where had paid for a 170 class high fence deer in Texas that I was sitting next to in business class and his guide ---- "hit him again,,,,I can't I only brought four bullets"----

I guess I forgot to ask what bullets he had used to shoot holes in the wrong places on that animal.

I quit using partitions a long time ago. They had accuracy issues I didn't appreciate. The didn't really do anything any other cup and core bullet wouldn't do about as well. The still shed their core often enough and they still deflected inside an animal often enough.

When the original Barnes in copper pipe were produced I tried them, but they had accuracy issues I wasn't interested in living with.

When the all copper Xs came out I tried them and they had issues with accuracy that were not part of bullet construction, but of design.

When the XLCs came out I tried them and was a happy camper. They were quite notably better than the Xs The TSX/TTSX bullets have been a linear improvement to an already good bullet. I have never fired an MRX. I've never had an XLC, X TSX or TTSX fail in game.

By fail, I mean specifically fail to open, deflect, turning a mortal wound into a non-mortal wound or shed it's core inside an animal. The latter while it may result in a dead animal is still a failure because at the point the bullet comes undone it can no longer do what I want it to. Loss of more than 50% of bullet weight inside an animal is something I would consider a failure, but I have never seen that without shedding the core.

The only way to be sure that a bullet does the job you want it to do, reach the vitals and penetrate them, is to design it to penetrate the whole animal. Hence my opinion that a bullet coming undone is a failed bullet. It may have killed the animal rather spectacularly, but it wasn't all that far away from not doing so, and it was not necessarily something the shooter was in control of.

To those of you who claim Barnes fail more often that cup and core bullets: Do you mean as I define failure for myself? Do you exempt deflected bullets from the failure category? Do you exempt bullets that fail to penetrate because they came undone from the category?

This reflects my exact experience.

For deer and black bear I would rather use a cup & core.

To my shame i've lost more elk only to Barnes bullets while hunting them on public land.
After hitting elk with solid chest shots they ran, sometimes hundreds of yards, into other hunters who
put a fininishing bullet in them and then claim them.

I'll never us them again.

I tried the similar Fail Safe one time(.270 Win) just after they came out and never will again.Penciled through a nice bull and great buck leaving me a much longer chase and pack out than I am used to with the Nosler.Having said that,in 45-70 the 300 Barnes XFN smacked him down on the spot at a nice angle but that is .458 versus .277 also.

Jayco

Never thought of it that way, but that is actually funny as hell. More like good at tracking so if I ever managed to screw up and land in the bunker I could get out easy...hahaha.
Most of it comes from my bowhunting days. For some reason, like folks like wood and blue over syn and ss, I just fell in love with the tracking puzzles. After having a couple of bad hits, including a few of my own that took hours and hours, sometimes a full day to track the animal down, it became part of it. I don't like tracking that long, but tehre is still a part of me that LOVES the blood trail puzzle.

You're a bit twisted, maybe. I'll admit to finding satisfaction in sorting things out - after it's all done; never crazy about the uncertainty of the deal though.

Not directed as a flame here SU, but IF I was on public land and its that crowded that a couple hundred yards nets someone else tagging the animal, the solution isn't a cup and core, its shot placement. While I don't argue that I've probably seen shorter trailing jobs MOST times with cup and core, I've seen enough failures wiht them, from failing to open to over expansion, that the ONLY sure way in your situation is CNS hit. Though double shoulders wouldn't be a bad second choice.

Never fails to amaze me that folks start to buy into the controlled expansion thing, for riskier shots and then are upset of they don't get BT tip explosive bang flops.

Bottom line that has always been this discussion, if you desire big holes, bang flops, big blood trails, use a sharp big broadhead... oh no, I got off track, use a more frangible bullet. The bonded ones seem to be the best to my mind, good expansion, but in theory can't loose their cores. If you prepare for the worst, use something like the TSX. I promise there isn't a shot out there that I can't confidently take with a TSX. There are more shots out there I can't take with a cup and core bullet though. The downfall to my choice is either I shoot CNS for a bang flop, or break major bones and generally get a bang flop, or assume that the deer is gonna run a bit and I'll have to search a bit on a lung shot.

Thank God we don't all like brunettes with great legs wearing boots....if ya know what I mean. Bottom line if it kills and you find it, and you are happy with how it worked out, more power to ya!

I've yet to see a lost animal to a Barnes. Can't say the same for others.

No flame taken and I respect your opinion, but I think you need to read what I said more correctly.

I did say cup & core for deer and black bear, NOT elk hunting on public land. I have never used Barnes bullets on deer or black bear and see absolutely no reason to start. It's an expensive bullet that will do no better than a c&c if not worse.

My second paragraph reflects my Barnes experience with elk.
No DRT's with them that's for sure and I've hit 8 of them with solid chest shots.

8 elk ran to far for me.

I've had plenty of DRT's with other premium bullets. Not that i expected it, it just happened that way.

If you sort it out after its done, you aren't learning, if you sort it out to find its done you are... Can't say much, I often simply go wonder around and look with a rifle shot. With a bow we always followed totally from the get go.

I dont' care for the uncertainty either, but with any shot you have that. In fact from guiding days I hated the bang flops the worst as I"ve seen more than a few get up and haul azz after a high graze... I pretty much am 110% confident when I release the sear.... cocky enough to know where it hit before I find the animal... but then I"m not right all the time...

Its a different thing I guess. I just prefer working the tracks out so that IF I ever really need to on one, we can do it. Had a doe a few years back, took an 85 tsx in the front chest facing me, came out the back hip, she didn't bleed that much right away, which is normal, but we came back with lights and it took 3 of us almost 30 minutes to find her piled up about 100 yards away. I was still following the blood trail when the others blindly found her...Sometimes having a lot of trailing under your belt can help. This time it didn't. But I've been able to follow trails MUCH furhter than most over the years. Where they stop I can either continue on to find the animal or find more evidence that tells we aren't going to find the animal.

Yep,... damnit all reading too fast... same goes though cup and core or premo bullet.. I'd hate your situation adn you know it digs even DEEPER with me. Being a former taxidermist I HATE holes in capes and have a really bad tendency as does one of my other partners, regardless the game, mount or not we are a few inches off the front leg... that even is too far back now and then... I'd hate to have to CNS something to mount, but you know if it wasn't mounter, I'd probably be thinking hot and heavy about top of the neck/head juncture.

Regards for knowing what I mean regardless of what I say...

Have a super weekend. BTW at least you shoot elk... I"m still elkless!! grins..

I believe tsx in bigger calibers are more designed to hit bone, shoulder shots. Lung and rib they don't open up enough, and sure they are going to go the distance. I think a hunter has to decide where he/she wants to hit an animal. It takes generally a different type of bullet. Hard to design a bullet to do both, as reading they will blow up at the shoulder or go straight through on lung shot. There are enough bullets out there to choose from. and yes some out there will do both..So what are they??

Miles, all expanding bullets can a do deflect. There is no magic that prevents Barnes bullets from deflecting.
If you want straight line penetration at all cost use a wide nose hard cast bullet in a large caliber.

Thought this was interesting, and it's pertinant to the thread. Guy double-lungs an elk with a TSX and it goes 380 yards with minimal blood trail.

I've said it before and I'll say it now. If I want a "super penetrator", I know just where to look. TSX's have shot well for me, and in fact I have two different bullet weights loaded up in my "Hunting" ammo part of my ammo safe.

BUT, I just have not seen the "problem" that would lead me to desire that "solution". Not when the solution doesn't come for free. The cost of the solution, as far as I can tell from my computer screen, is that they kill slower. Not into that, not when I've seen such great performance from other bullets.

I edited Southpaw's post for brevity.

I have had more critter drop quickly with a Barnes than with anything else I've used.

I still think a light for caliber bullet doing warp speed impresses deer a hell of a lot more than bigger stuff.

Exactly...

Scott

I"m not enthralled with light for caliber, or shoulder shots, but deer wise I know that should be correct. And I don't doubt it. I just like to be armed for the long shot if needed, and light for caliber doesn't cut it.
I am EXTREMELY interested in if you've non shoulder shot IE lungs/ribs with light TSX for caliber and had lots of bang flops? I have an issue I"m trying to sort out and Hornady SSTs didn't solve it. I"m still torn between a 110, .277 ttsx in 270 driven hard, vs a 130 berger not as hard. Ribcage shots but dont' want big damage/holes on the exit. silver dollar size is plenty big.

Jeff-- BTW go check the windy thread, have a wind direction question there for you just for grins. Still can't see enough around you to tell for sure if what you had should have been readable or not, but want to know if my guess from what I CAN see is close or not.
Anyway on the 380 wiht minimal blood, I'd actually suspect 2 things. First it can happen with any bullet on an elk. They seem to be tough like that, very comparable to our Nilgai. Second anytime you rely on getting more than a double diameter exit hole you are relying on a bullet starting to fall apart so to speak, and getting secondary projectiles of frags and bones etc... and thats one of those things.... if you can accept that, then its all good. ITs also one of the reasons the old suggestions always were go heavy for caliber on big, as it was KNOWN that you'd loose bullet as it penetrated, though it was a guessing game as to how much.
Of course I know you'd never take the chance on a THS and therefore see why a 200 accubond would be a decent choice. Me, OTOH, I'll do whatever I need if I feel the desire. Not that I feel the desire all the time, but one time had I KNOWN for sure the back end I saw broadside was a cow and not a spike, there would have been 565 grains of lead headed its way.

Funny you should bring it up. None of the critters I shot this year were in the shoulder, just to see. Albeit the piggy took one in the cheerio. No critter went further than 20 yards (the 8point). The Axis, and pig dropped at the shot and the fork went maybe 5 yards.

Pig and fork shot with a 130gr TTSX from a 300 Savage, 8pt and Axis with a 85gr X from the 250AI. Pig was 60-70 yards, fork 90'ish, 8pt 125 yards and Axis 140 yards.

All normal'ish size holes, none of the stick you fist through.










I was with Bart's son when he shot a fork at 100 yards through the ribs with an 85gr TSX in the 6mm Remington, deer went 15 feet.

I don't know if there is magic the prevents a Barnes from deflecting, but I do know that what I have seen out of them is that they deflect less often and in lesser degree than cup and core bullets. When you couple that with the much longer penetration of them it starts to look like something more than run of the mill slight of hand. That characteristic is one of the things that truly sets them apart from cup and core bullets.

Didn't think about it till after Jeff, but I stopped in Columbus, TX the other day, thinking you weren't far away.

Well, I have only one deer I killed with a TSX 3 years ago, but that bullet absolutely mangled the innards without doing much meat damage at all.
This was out of a 270Roy, 140gr @3300fps MV impact at 355 yards.
The deer, a little 3X3 muley, dropped in his tracks.
Take it for what it is worth.

Also,I always like reading these kinds of threads.

You are 100% correct in my experience.

John

I believe that as well for all game bullets not just Barnes.

120 BT's out of a 7mm mag at 3,500 really impresses them.

Most definately SU, the two rifles I've seen the quickest lights out kills have been my 6/06 with the 70 and 95 NBT's and my Mashburn with the 150 NBT.

They both simply pound game and flick the switch both far and long and without breaking a bunch of bone.

I've noticed that more game goes down and out with such combo's and lung hits right now than does when I break bone. A goodly share of the time when I break bone they still either take a hike and or when they hit the turf the thrash around for a while.

No doubt about it speed kills!

Dober

Either that or a GREAT BIG BULLET...as long as it opens up.

True that John, I shot a lot of chucks with my 340 and never had any issues. The funky old 200 Horn flat point was fairly effective.

Dober

My .358 at ~2500 fps is the hands-down most decisive whacker of deer that I've used.

I don't want to use light bullets at warp speed. One more thing what's steered me away from the TSX. Even the TSX cultist like SH say the light ones work best.

I'll take a heavier-for-caliber, high-BC bullet like an Accubond and get it ALL... lots of penetration, quicker kills, better LR performance, etc.

Just MHO and I reserve the right to change it!

Good thread, peoples...

I know your 358 will dog pile them closer up, but when the range gets in the 300-500 range what do you think or what have you seen?

Personally I'm for betting as that big slug loses speed it'll still kill but it won't have that lightning effect/affect (whichever it is...)

Thoughts?

Dober

That 150gr E Tip outta my 300 Win gets the bigger guys attention.I consider that a lite bullet for the cartridge.The 2 moose my father took with the 168 TSX and a 300 Win both didn't take a step.Neat little holes in and out.

Forgot.. Nice critters Scott and Congrats to Bart's lad.

Miles, I havent had a single bullet of any type deflect. I Have seen it happen once.
How much penetration do you need on a deer? Not much IMO although I have never had a cup and core not destroy both lungs on a broadside shot.
As for quick kills with the TSX. Not in my experience. And it makes sense since you are trading wound channel size for increased penetration with a TSX.

Dead Moose, dead Elk, dead deer, none under 200, 35 Whelen.
When it has to work, Barnes is it.

What I think is I'd be using a different rifle!

Well, I'd run the .358 out to 350 yards or so... But that'd be in a pinch.




I would also presume that to be true. It'll still make a big hole, that can't be bad <g>...

Hey, I don't doubt that light & fast kills them fast... Closest I've come is a 150-gn out of a 30-06; dunno if that qualifies though. Sure did work well, DRT.

I'd rather run a heavier for caliber, softer bullet than a TSX, even for elk. I see lots of upside, and a manageable downside (recoil, trajectory).

Really, choosing bullets is about choosing a type of wound channel... I like the idea of some fragmentation as long as I know there's enough "candle" left on the back end of the bullet!

I know others despise ANY loss of bullet weight and will choose a longer, narrower wound channel. They aren't wrong.

Miles, the only time I have seen a Nosler Partition deflect from its course was when my wife deliberately put one in the tailbone of a cow elk that was stumbling downhill--about to die from another 150-grain Partition through both lungs.

Since we had to pack the elk UP the mountain behind us, Eileen shot the cow in the tailbone to stop it. The bullet broke the pelvis and the upper femur of the left leg, dropping the elk right there. It deflected a little bit as it broke the femur.

This is the only time I have seen a Partition deflected noticeably, out of over 100 animals taken with them myself. The animals have ranged from springbok and pronghorn to moose and Cape buffalo. I have also seen at least that many animals taken by other people with Partions.

One of the many examples is a pronghorn that I shot just as it whirled, with a 100-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts. The bullet hit the buck in the right hip and ended up in the left shoulder. The buck dropped instantly, of course, and didn't move afterward.

I don't know why my experience differs so much from yours, but then life is full of surprises.

JB...I kinda remember a 175 gr. NPT that some idiot took an angular shot at a quartering away zebra with his 7x57..

you were there...

That one broke the near hip, traversed the paunch, up into the vitals, for a kill within 200 yds....traveled a pretty darned straight line, considering the obstacles it encountered....

I'm just saying...

Ingwe

Gee, I do remember that one!

But didn't want to use somebody else's story--especially since I thought the story might be more effective if the other person told it.

That darn 175 gr partition could take out a tiger tank, by the look of it!

Tim..a lengthwise Zebra is a pretty close approximation...

Ingwe

Fastest, in the tracks dead shots I've had on game were with Ballistic Tips and Partitions. All were lung shots at reasonably decent velocity. Both Deer and Elk.

Longest tracking job was a Mule Deer Buck hit in the lungs with a 165 X (original X) via a 308 Win at 150 yards... that buck went on and on.

That's what I hear.
If I ever get over to the dark continent, I would love to hunt Hartmann's(sp?) Zebra along with other plains game in Namibia.
Someday...

Anyone who would accidentally shoot an ungulate through the hip is a [bleep], idiot, liar, deserving of ridicule forevermore, and... disrespectul to the game... and lots of other bad things, I'm told. And told. And told.

Unless, of course, they do it on purpose. Then they are really experienced hunters.

Ingwe didn't do it on purpose, and neither did I. But it worked.

Yep...that bullet was 'sposed to slip in behind the last rib, and angle forward....ALMOST went according to plan...

And I called myself ALL those names long before anybody else got a chance to....

Ingwe

Just as long as there was no blue tape involved...

Since we are proudly(?) discussing "bad" shooting, and bullet deflections, I'll add this one:



I was attempting to neck a bullet caribou departing downhill and straight-away. I got the windage right and "did" a bit of spine - about 8"- and the bullet ended up in the sternum. I'm thinking it skewed downward due to loss of a petal, a loss which I felt was quite understandable considering the 225 grain copper was sent by a 340 at under 100 yards.

Bullets which open less or to a less resistant shape, and quite uniformly, seem less likely to deflect in my experience. Bullets which end up with a round ball nose or small symmetrical petals seem less inclined to be deflected as often. I prefer a wider expansion effect, even with Barnes bullets. But it's all physics; nothing new created.

That was my plan too... Made sense at the time!

As it happened, it was the first deer I butchered myself, so I really had to face up to the meat loss from a smashed-up hindquarter.. What a depressing mess.

I just got a 210 Partition load to perk along nicely at 2990'ish.

Now I'm scarred it won't kill even a whitetail after reading somethings here.

This is a good old fashioned 165 gr Hornady Interlock fired from a 742 in .30-06 at 2700 fps. I recovered it from a big bodied 8 point (no joke, he weighed 225 lbs.) as he was standing quartering-on at 170 yards. The deer went down immediately. It broke the front shoulder and I found the bullet lodged against the skin just behind the opposite shoulder. It destroyed both lungs. According to my RCBS ballistics calculator, this bullet had an impact velocity of 2350 fps.

I've used this bullet a lot over the years, but I can tell you from experience that if you were to shoot a deer with an impact velocity of >2600 fps and hit bone, the bullet WILL distintegrate. This is one reason that I use X bullets when I shoot anything from my .300 Wby.

I was hunting on my own property and I knew from this particular stand this deer or his bigger brother would cross no closer than 100 yards and no farther than 200 yards (I would never use this 742 at any longer distance, but that's another story). This is just another reason that I think one needs to choose a bullet based upon both expected impact velocity and game.

It really is about one's experiences. I shot a mule deer through both lungs with a 180 gr original X at 3100 fps. The deer was broadside at 275 yards. He stotted twice, stopped, quivered and rolled over. He had been standing in front of what was left of a burnt pine. There was a tremendous splash of blood and you could clearly see where the bullet entered the tree. I wish I had a chain saw cause I sure would have loved to have recovered that bullet.

This is true, but it also confirms the religious-like antagonism that some have towards Barnes bullets, regardless of the fact that one can reasonably assume, and should realize, that every bullet in existence will fail once in a while, and one failure does not mean that we should ostracize the bullet completely.

But it ain't my experience. I trust Mark when he had the bullet issue though.

Anything made by man can and will fail at some point.

i can dig them.... 168 TSX 300WSM

Good seeing your dad again. Did you recover any bullets?

recovered a 270 TSX from dad's oryx and a 168 from the smaller horded Kudu.

Yeah, i miss the ol'man!

140 X out of the 270WSM

Nuther 168TSX

6.5x55 AI 120 TSX

He was a load your grandmother should have swallowed... grin...

223AI 62 TSX

I"ll PM a cell phone. Columbus is 30 minutes or so, I'd drive down or across to buy ya a beer!

140 X 270WSM to the noodle.

140 X 270 WSM Finished off the other guys as well.

Considering all the whining you've done and the fact that Paul's comment was more about you shows just what a [bleep] retard you are.

Forget the fact that his dad died a few weeks ago. You are forever [bleep].

168 TSX 300WSM

That's a GREAT picture.

Great pics, Paul!

Sorry to hear about your dad.

180 X 300WM

I appreciate it.

120TSX out of my 708 TI.

well, you get the point. i can dig the TSX and X quite a bit...

+1
Jeff, that was totally uncalled for.

Fortunately Paul won't cry about it forever and post it whenever he gets a chance.

Jeff is forever the victim and forever a POS.

I know you folks don't care for Jeff O, but I hope he wouldn't have done that under the circumstances. We can push each other around but I hope this was just bad timing.

Paul, my condolences, i must have missed that your Dad passed away. Can't replace em and its a bitch of a ride without em but life goes on and I know you know that and will handle it.

Jeff

[bleep]? That's nasty. Believe it or not all game outside of OR does not stand broadside while you range it, set up your bi pod, get out your wind meter and communicate with NASA on the impact of the earth's rotation.

I have shot a fair number of animals, especially Eastern Whitetails jumped from deadfalls right up their asses. Messy gutting job but a 12 bore deerslug will do the job and dead is dead. I prefer meat to pork & beans.

Show me any hunter who claims to have passed up a shot on a 6X6 Elk going dead away that he passed up for "ethical reasons" (on the assumption that he had a real rifle with bullets able to end to end an Elk) and I'll show you a BSer.

This is a real rifle (9.3x62) and these are real bullets (225 35 cal TSXs, all one shot kills) and no, they were not shot from the 9.3, but a 250 .366 TSX will perform as well or better.

Now that is a cool pic! And sorry to hear of the passing of your Father.

Dober

(and that gemsbok is a stud!!)

Thanks, he loved hunting down in TX.

He was a good bull, i was impressed by how tough they are. ran 30 yards with both shoulders turned to splinters.

Sorry about your Dad Paul, it's posts like this that remind me to enjoy every single hunt I get to spend with my Dad.

Enjoy them Brad as b4 you know it you won't have it any more. My Father is still around and we chat a lot about hunting and fishing but he just can't get out and get it done anymore.

I would gladly give up hunting and fishing the rest of my life if I could have just one more day on a lake with him or one more day in the field with him.

Here's to Dads!

Dober

Another one from here Paul...

Sorry to hear about your dad...

BTDT...30 years ago this week...


I wish I could tell you it gets easier...but I cannot..

Ingwe

Yes sir, it's like getting around with a bum knee. You never completely get over it but you do learn how to live with it and you never really know when it's going to sneak up on you again.

holy chit..

I guess what's next is for Jeff to make this all about him... Again.

Sorry to hear it Paul.

I'm dreading the day...

Looks like you and your father had some great days in the field and that's what it's really all about.

Thats about all I could think when I saw JeffOs post...

The lowest...


Ingwe

Paul,

Those pics of you and your Dad in Africa are fantastic. I'm really sorry to hear he passed, but I'm glad to see you two had the chance to do the Africa thing.

Dad and i shared many and adventure, from hunting in CO where i grew up to Alaska fly in caribou hunts while i was stationed there then argentina for red stag and a couple other exotics and then Africa a couple months after my mother passed from cancer and little sister from a childhood illness. I'll never forget the last time we went hunting, it was a hunt in CO for elk. Dad and i didn't get anything and he rarely ventured far from the tent but i helped my BIL break an 8 year curse and got him on a nice cow, his first elk.

Thanks to all of you for the kind words. Don't be too hard on Jeff, i'm sure he didn't know and just thought it a good time to try to pay me back.

Paul-
Since you've punched a lot of critters with Barnes, do you recall ever seen them do something odd-ball, off the script?

That�s big of you. I normally view JO and Lee24 as an occasional �sour grape� out of a bunch, but besides being crude that comment was completely inappropriate regardless of your fathers passing. Kind of a bummer ending to a good thread also.

My condolences. I wish my father and I had more good memories but he was always too busy/mean and now too set in his ways to change. I keep hoping though�

had one go sideways through a red heartebeast that my dad shot. he hit some brush just in front of it and it entered sideways in the paunch. It was a 375 Ultra 270TSX. that's the only one that went weird that i've seen but it wasn't the bullets fault.

Thanks. What do you think of the new tipped version? Improvement or gimmick?

honestly haven't shot any. was with steely when he smoked a nice 3x3 with a 300 savage and 130TTSX's. it definitely worked. He'd be the best to chime in on the TTSX though. i've just got so many X, XLC, and TSX's that i have no need to buy any bullets for a while. when i do i'll give them a run.

A guy ought to stock up when he finds something that works for him!

Concur. I'm a fan. Need to get them shooting well out of my Bob but the 120 TSX from the 7-08 have done very well for me.

SC Pig



After passing through five feet of whitetail fore to aft.

heck, i've got 1k 85gr X 25cal's cause they were 14.00 a box. same with 120 X's for the 284. Got to go with what you know works. no matter what that may be. X, TSX, NBT, NPT's Whatever makes you happy. cause in the end you only have to make yourself happy!

Allen,
How you been? i need to make time to come up to MD for a visit!

take care,
Paul

Sorry to hear about your pop, Paul. Sounds like you have many fond memories to reflect upon.

Roy

Didn't know your dad had passed, Paul. Was attempting to "reset" things between us, I hope you understand what I mean by that.

Guess I [bleep] THAT one up! My apologies, and condolences for the passing of your dad.

Good for you, Jeff.

i know what you was doing and i don't offend that easily. Thanks for the apology and i hope others don't hold that against you.

Get back up here! You still afloat in DE? Good new place here in Catonsville for lunch. Had a Maryland Po Boy the other day, fried shrimp on a roll topped with blue crab dip and cheese. You can feel your heart slowing down.

You're a better man than JO, nice to see someone not playing victim. He would have run this one for at least a year.


Course it was never in question about you being better than JO.

i'm here in VA on a boat. hoping to get transferred in the next year and a half. i wont be up that way till after February some time.

I'll be around most of then I think. I'll PM #'s.

I like the color scheme in your kitchen, SH.

Cool pics as always Paul.

Very sorry to hear of your Fathers passing.

Mike

Since I'm an LSU fan, I was wondering how you took the SEC (or national) championship game. I will say that I genuinely admire Tebow.

Good on Jeff for stepping up to claim his big mistake. Says as much or more about you to accept it so well.

Good for you both.

And my condolences on your loss, Paul. Showing those pics of time you shared reveals the tip of what must have been a mountain of great life shared.

Klik-
+1

Wasn't completely surprised by the game but had hoped otherwise. Florida never really impressed me with their offense this year, what did surprise me about the game is how bad FL d played, or maybe how well AL O played.

JB, It's been quite a while since I used Partitions. But... I never saw them perform all that different than other cup and core bullets other than they were harder to get accurate loads with. A good example of lead core bullets deflecting was a deer I killed this year (after it had been shot in the knee by a guy in my party). I was shooting a 30-30 with LeverEvolution 160s. The deer was maybe 100 feet away going through four foot high swamp grass. I had a decent chance at a back of the head shot so I took it. The front of the deer when down and the back up a little. The bullet hit one of the last two ribs down 3-4 inches from the top of the back. It should have penetrated just behind the diaphragm maybe catching a little liver. Instead it bounced up off the rib through the chops and out without touching the spine. I have seen many variations of this. Scapula hits, leg bone hits, rib hits, spine hits etc. Hit bone at an angle and it seems pretty easy to deflect bullets. That's why what I have seen with the Barnes is so impressive to me. I have only ever seen one barnes deflect, and it was not much. Deer was at 140-150 broadside. Shot from nineteen feet off the ground. Exit was maybe an inch above the entrance. Just barely enough to notice if you were looking. I look. Carefully at every one. My experience has been that they go through in a straight line that's very unexpectedly straight.

I have had two lose petals in deer. One was a 300 WM with a 150 X at 50 feet. In the mouth, shattered teeth, through the neck at the atlas and a petal lodged in the spin just in front of the pelvis. The other a TSX 130 in .270 at 80 feet was also in the mouth shattered teeth, out through the atlas. One petal was out a little off center on the neck a couple inches below the shank exit. The other petal made it through a lung and out the side of the rib cage in the middle.

Less those, all the rest of my experience has been uniform.

I intend to design a test to look at the what it takes to tumble one on the way to the target, and to examine the possibility of it re-stabilizing in some fashion traveling butt first.

Dave

sorry to hear about your Dad. Mine passed 2 years ago, it was a sad day.

Miles, any time you shoot something at an extreme angle like that a bullet has a good chance of deflecting. Barnes are not immune.

If the 300 X that made this hole:



...wasn't tumbling, then it must have pancaked flat in order to do that. Probably a 2100 fps launch speed into a 45 yard target, clipping the edge of the onside scapula.



The pictured X broke no bones, but it did hit some...sideways.

Gee, Miles, let me see:

100-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts, started at 3200 fps, hit a pronghorn buck in the right hip at 300 yards when the buck whirled (to threaten another buck) just as I shot. The buck was down and dead right there, because the bullet ended up in the left shoulder, in a direct line from the right hip.

115-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts AI, started at 3150 fps. This one hit a BIG eastern Montana whitetail buck at 80 yards, as the buck quartered strongly toward me. The bullet broke the near shoulder, ticked the underside of the spine, and went through the chest, ending up under the hide on the flank on the far side. Buck dropped instantly and never moved.

140-grain Partition from a 7x57. Hit an average mule deer buyck at the base of the neck 30 yards away, as he faced directly toward me in lodgepole timber. Bullet entered the dimple at the base of the neck, and was found in the rump, having gone the length of the deer. Buck was down and dead instantly.

150-grain Partition from a .270 Win. hit an average Shiras bull moose, quartering away, in the rear of the left ribs and ended up in the right shoulder, under the hide, almost three feet of penetration. Bull took a step and a half and dropped dead.

160-grain Partition from a .280. Hit a big mule deer buck (250 field-dressed) that was standing broadside, broke both shoulders and exited at 300 yards.

180-grain Partition from a .30-06, hit near shoulder of bull kudu at 350 yards as the bull stood almost broadside up a steep mountain. Bullet hit the edge of the shoulder joint, then went on upward and broke the spine, ending up under the skin on the far side of the spine.

200-grain Partition from a .300 Winchester Magnum, hit a 6-point bull elk in the big joint of the right shoulder as the bull quartered toward me. Bullet exited at the rear of the ribs on the far side, and the bull went 35 yards.

200-grain Partition from a .300 Weatherby, hit a raghorn bull elk at 375 yards right in the tailbone. The bull had been shot once already (in the bottom of the heart) but was still standing. Bull dropped at the shot and rolled downhill 50 yards. Bullet ended up in the front of the chest.

225-grain Partition from a .338 Winchester, broke the near shoulder joint on a 900-pound bull muskox at 200 yards, was found under the hide in the middle of ribs on the far side, retaining 85% of its weight.

Those are just a few examples of well over 100 animals taken with Nosler Partitions. The only Partition I've ever seen deflected, as I noted above, was a 150-grain .270 which broke a cow elk's pelvis--and it didn't deflect much.

If those are examples of typical cup-and-core performance, please tell me what cup-and-cores you've been using as I'd like to buy some.

Side note John, what bullet do you run in the 30/30 tube of your drilling?

I am curious as to what you think about cup and core at impact velocities under 2400 fps. I know I've had awfully good luck. I generally have gone to Barnes for the really fast rifles and Hornady's and Sierra's (215 gr in my .338-06 have shot plumb through deer) for the slower stuff.

That about sums it up.

I will add that I REALLY like the Norma Oryx for 'normal' speed cartridges. Haven't had a rifle that hasn't shot them extremely well.

Paul Walukewicz;
Please accept my condolences on your father's passing.

Mine passed almost 7 years ago now and I still want to call him to come over and look when the girls or I get a deer. When he couldn't hunt anymore he still liked to come have a look at what I'd caught up the mountain.

It's cool you got to hunt with him as much as you did, they look like grand memories there.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Paul.

Dwayne

165 180 and 200 Partitions? Hmmmmm?

I didn't start reloading for the '06, 300 Sav, and 308 with Partitions until I was 19 years old. We all wanted the Partitions because we wanted sure kills. Now, only 50 years (1/2 Century) later, the Partition still has no better, so I still load what people have confidence in.

When a better performer arrives, I'll be at the head of the line to use improved terminal bullet performance. But not yet.

Wayne

Paul, once again sorry for the loss of your father.

Really cool looking at all the picts of your time hunting with your dad. I never had that opportunity to do that with mine. You were blessed to have that time. Does not ease the pain from the loss, but none the less those are some great memories.

Thanks for posting the picts guy.

John

Steelhead,

Generally I run 170-grain Partitions in my old .30-30 drilling, but I'm not adamant about it. But I did have a cuop-and-core factory .30-30 bullet come apart on a whitetail shoulder once (which isn't supposed to happen) so I figure running Partitions is cheap insurance. They also just happen to shoot right to the old gun's sights with about any common load, as does factory 170-grain ammo.

Roger that, thanks. The only factory load that doesn't print 5" high is the 160gr Hornady Leverevolution. I'm thinking the quicker speed limits barrel time or something like that. I'm just starting to load for it now.

If you'd pay attention you would see that I am saying that the performance of Barnes in similar situations have not deflected and it was quite surprising. NPs have shown me that they are no different than any other lead core bullet. I have seen many deflect in just that kind of situation.

I am looking for answers to why some of this is different because the number of opportunities for deflection I have seen with Barnes is telling me it's outside just chance. There is really something different going on.

I have yet to see a single radical deflection.

Huntaria,

In general I've had good luck with cup-and-cores at lower velocities, but a lot depends on the style of bullet and how much bone it might encounter.

I've had two cup-and-core bullets come apart on deer shoulders, one a factory 150-grain RN from a .30-30 that broke up on a whitetail shoulder at about 125 yards, and one a 150-grain Winchester Slvertip .30-06 factory load that did the same thing on a mule deer shoulder at 200.

When using cup-and-cores on deer I tend to use heavier spitzers for the caliber. If shots can come at any range from near the muzzle out I tend to load them at no more than 2800 fps, but if shots are likely to be at least 200 yards or so I have loaded them much faster.

As any example, I use the 160 Sierra GameKing at 2700 in my 7x57 for general hunting of game up to 250 pounds or so, Have used it on deer and ewe bighorn here in the U.S., and on lots of smaller plains game from springbok to warthog in Africa. It works very well and I almost never recover one.

When I was fooling with the .264 Winchester Magnum several years ago I did some mule deer doe culling with the 140 Speer Hot-Core at 3200 fps. It worked perfectly, butnone of the shots were closer than 200 yards, where velocity had dropped to 2700 or so.

The Hornady Interlock is a little tougher than most other cup-and-cores, at least in my experience. The ones my wife and I have used a lot on various game from pronghorns to caribou are the 130- and 150-grain .270's, and the 139 7mm, all from either the .270 Winchester and .280 Remington. The only one I've seen come apart was a 130 .270 that my wife put into the front of the neck of a big pronghorn that was facing us at about 100 yards. We found what was left the jacket and core, separately, under the skin on the back of the neck--but that was after the bullet had totally smashed the neck bones.

The only time I drop the velocity to 2400 or so is if the shots are all going to be 200 yards or less. This is isually in rounds like the .30-40 Krag, .358 Winchester, etc. This works pretty well, but a lot depends on the size of the bone tha might be hit. I like the 250 Hornady RN in the .358 for this use, as it is pretty tough yet the RN helps it open easily. This works pretty well, even on animals bigger than deer, but if the bullet may have to get through REALLY big bone I much prefer some sort of premium bullet.

By the way, like Steelhead I have also had excellent luck with the Norma Oryx. It not only has shot very well in my rifles but performs very well on game. I have mostly used the 156 7mm and 180 .30 from the 7x57 and .30-06.

The best group I have ever shot with any rifle was three from my drilling 8x57JR Oryx factory stuff, which I happen to have a ton of. Quite literally was the one ragged hole. Still have no idea how the planets aligned on that one...

I suspect a lot of my C&C prejuidice is a function of caribou and goat shooting. Goats have the thickest bone of anything I have ever cut up. The bones are large in diameter and thick-walled, and pretty hard compared to other critters. Caribou win in the hardest bone category, though they are fairly light, it is hard! I have saved a fair bit of bone for knife handles and such and the differences are dramatic.

Bear bone is neither heavy nor hard and moose bone is just bigger. Sheep is just ordinary bone, too.

I have seen radical turns in C&C bullets placed in whitetails, though. And Partitions have never shown me they were any different.

Running them over the Juenke has proven interesting... The old screw machine partitions are the most consistent bullets we have run and the new ones are anything but...
art

Why would you want cup and cores that deflect?

I have found core-lokt to be fairly typical and they most assuredly will deflect like the LeverEvolution I mentioned. I shot them for a long time because they were decently accurate, performed as well as anything else available and were close enough to factory loads that I had a reasonable option if I had to shoot factory ammo. I still shoot them at times. just not at deer anymore.

The irony of it is that caribou are among the easiest of all medium big game to knock down in my experience. And while I do have a couple of Xs saved from 'bou which stopped them, one was a light for caliber which required a second animal to stop. (But I've also doubled with Ballistic Tips on caribou.) I don't think I collected a single 100 Sierra which I've used perhaps more than any other bullet for caribou; this in a 6mm. Caribou bone is both light and brittle IMO. Moose bone, OTOH, is neither and it has turned or stopped, without giving in, some of the best stuff out there IME.

Paul, sorry to hear about your dad...Can't imagine its going to be easy for me either when mine passes.




This is what sets you apart. You are truly a good guy to have here.

Miles,

I have tried to be patient with your posts, but you continue to astonish me with illogic.

First, you replied to one of my earlier posts about Partitions by describing the performance of a Hornady LeveRevolution bullet.

Now after I specifically describe many instances of deep, straight-line penetration with Partitions, and ask a straightforward (but apparently too subtle for you) question suggesting that such performance is NOT typical cup-and-core performance, you respond with something about Core-Lokts.

I have been reading your posts on all sorts of subjects for a while now and the only conclusion I can come to is either you have a very short attention span, a reading comprehension problem, or simply aren't very bright. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I can't come to any other conclusion.

Klik,

My experience with caribou parallels yours. I have seen them killed with cartridges from the .22-250 to .338 Winchester Magnum, with bullets varying from Interlocks and Ballistic Tips to Partitions and TSX's, at ranges out to nearly 500 yards.

I probably haven't seen as many killed as either you or Sitka, but have seen 30+ taken, in various places from Alaska all across Canada to Quebec. All I've seen taken have been mature bulls, and very few have shown anything extraordinary required in either cartridge or bullet. Some have stood there for a little bit before they tipped over, but I dunno if that's because they're tough or kinda slow-witted.

My own conclusion has to do with the idea that they understand and accept that they are part of the food chain. Obviously, I'll never know for sure but I've never seen one argue otherwise when I went to insert a blade through the thin part of their skull to hasten their progress into the food chain.

It is a fact that pound for pound, some animals and "soft" and others are "tough". A red deer is soft, a rabbit is tough.

JW

True enough. I once drilled a 35 caliber hole through the forward portion of a hare's skull using a 358 Winchester. It was a 200 grain round nosed cast bullet load going 1900 fps at the muzzle. The hare was probably around 50 yards away so still go hit hard. It was knocked down momentarily, but came to and got back up, hopping about in a daze with a bloodied face. I used a second bullet in the body to knock it down for certain. It was later as I looked at the dead animal when we were skinning that I noticed daylight show through from side to side. Granted, the bones through the sinus are on a rabbit are paper thin, but it was an impressive thing to see a puny little snowshoe hare "take it" from a big game rifle.

Did not mean to imply caribou are anything like hard to kill. Need to go back and reread what I posted as I thought I made that disclaimer... What I have seen though is the fact caribou bones have redirected bullets for me repeatedly, despite their relative brittleness, and lack of heft, but due to their hardness.
art

Yup, failed to insert a disclaimer. My apologies.

Guess I haven't seen that, but the majority of the caribou I've seen killed have been shot behind the shoulder, with nothing more than ribs involved. Though on the relatively few I can recall being hit in a shoulder, I can't rememeber any bullet deflections, and that would be something I'd tend to remember.

Hmm? Perhaps the bone hardness explains what happened to this 145 Grand Slam from a 7mm-08 which hit a young animal (caribou) at 150-200 yards:



Never quite figured out what happened inside. I've seen similar things with bullets skidding off the much bigger bones of moose as well. Better to hit things squarely it seems. I suspect that's true of any bullet, especially those with spitzer shapes. It seems a "u-turn" of some sort was one of the things which really soured JJHACK on the Barnes X early on.

Klik,

That's real interesting! What was the cartridge/velocity? What year did it happen?

Two recommendations for the Oryx. I've never used them, but I will try them.

As for the .30-30, I have seen the failure you describe with 150 gr RN Remingtons. I'm not sure if these bullets are built any heavier than the 170's. I will tell you the 170gr Remingtons have worked OK in my .303 Savage, but I don't drive them much over 2000 fps, so I'm actually relying on them being a bit soft. I don't recall I've ever hit anything other than whitetail rib bone, though, so its not much of a test.

I would agree that Partitions seem like a pretty good compromise in your .30-30's. In my .30-30's I've pretty much settled on 170gr Hornady FN at 2150 fps. Do you know if the .30-30 Partition is built specifically for .30-30 velocity?

Years ago, I used 100 gr GS in a .243. This was the source of the greatest bullet failure I've ever had. I shot a small whitetail doe at a bit over 200 yards and the bullet never penetrated. It just blew a chunk of shoulder out; it likely only pentrated an inch. The follow-up shot was closer and just as spectacularly bad, but at least she was left with a cavernous hole in her chest. There wasn't much left except for the hams! I read later on that Speer made GS to a different specification in the .243. I don't know whether that was true or not, but I never used them again. I still have most of the box left.

MD, It was a 90's deal, two part core GS. 20" Model Seven did the killing. A handload. I was probably using H414/760 by the book with those; nothing earthshaking, but always sufficient even out yonder. Wide open tundra so no deflection prior to impact with animal. The only thing I can think of is that it caught a bone edge along the side of the bullet, weakening the jacket, and then skidded in, kind of sideways (across the scapula). I've seen other side openings on jacketed bullets which leave me thinking that it, even more than excess velocity, may be the Achilles heal of the cup and cores.


HS,

Those 243 GS were always a one-piece core; I don't know if that could have been an issue. Mostly, in just a few samples, I have seem outstanding results with them, and a 180 from the 30-06 at under 50 yards blowing completely through the spine of a moose and sailing onward was not a disappointment.

As for 30-30 stuff, I swore off anything lighter than 170s and settled on the Core-lokt bullet after seeing a lighter bullet fail to fully penetrate a river otter. Granted, they are wiry little critters but, did I say little? (The fact that a 170 CL once lowered a moose to earth by taking out the spine endeared me to the bullet also.)

I would vote for all of the above.....

Huntaria,

Well, to the extent that the 170 Partition is a round-nose it's built for the .30-30. A broad RN with more lead showing always helps expansion, but from my understanding the front core is the same lead alloy as the other Partitions. But because the rear core is harder, and because of the partition, it works real well at faster velocities. In fact in my drilling it gets 2350 fps and I once shot a mule deer doe at 12 yards with it. The bullet went into the shoulder as the big doe quartered toward me, and exited the rear of the rib cage.

The 170 Hornady FN is also a fine .30-30 bullet, in my experience.

The 150 RN I had trouble with was a factory load made in the 1980's. I don't know if the same bullet is still made or not.

Klik,

Thanks for the info. I have used all three generations of the Hot-Core on game, and that was the best one. I suspect you're right about the basic flaw in cup-and-cores, even with harder cores and somewhat thicker jackets.

The only cup-and-cores that I've sen retain more than 50% of their weight no matter what they hit are the Nosler Ballistic Tips that are around 2/3 jacket. This was the formula for the .338 200 and other big ones, and when those hit bones often the only thing that was recovered was the jacket--but it often weighed 60% or more of initial bullet weight. The present 180 BT is like that.

I have always felt caribou were different when it came to shots through the shoulder and my father was adamant about avoiding them. I believe it was a 150 Sierra in 270 I once found in the nearside ham after ticking the trailing edge of a quartering away caribou's scapula. The bullet had to turn to starboard well over 135 degrees.
art

I've seen a lot of caribou shot and killed, and I would say that while some are relatively easy to put down, you do find the odd "tough guy"! I've mentioned this before, but just to illustrate my point, I'll tell it again...

I was once guiding a guy up in the NWT, and we had a herd of about 100 'bou come to within 240 yards of camp. Well, this guy decided that he wanted to fill 1 of his 2 tags without having to go too far from camp (when hiking over tundra, boulder fields, and muskeg, you take what you can get!). We did a small stalk to get into a good shooting position to take one of the best bulls of the group. My rangefinder showed 230 yards to the bull. The guy was shooting a .338 Win Mag with 225gr Fed Power-shok ammo. The bull was facing broadside and the hunter fired. I saw the impact through my binos on the shoulder of the animal. The bull just stood there as if nothing had happened. He then decided to turn and face the other direction, for another broadside shot. The hunter fired again, and again, I saw the impact in the shoulder (both shoulders have now been shot). The bull stood there, still, as if nothing had happened. The hunter fired again and the bull, again, showed no reaction. At this point the hunter became VERY flustered, thinking that his scope must have gotten bumped at some point. The herd began to move away slowly, and I noticed that the bull in question was moving with them, but was moving more slowly. He began to lag behind the rest of the group. We made the hike up the rocky hill and over a couple of small rises to where the bull was last seen. He was within 50 yards of where we had last seen him, laying down on the tundra. As we approached, the bull struggled to get up and tried to make his escape. Another 225gr Power-shok finally put him down for good. Upon caping him, removing the meat, and inspecting the damage, I realized that ALL 4 of the hunter's bullet had been right on target. The bull had one entrance hole on each shoulder, from the first two broadside shots, another hole just behind the shoulders, again broadside. And finally, another hole from the finisher, fired as the bull was quartering away, that went in behind the last rib, and exited in front of the off-side shoulder. The insides of the bull looked like complete mush, and both front quarters were void of any usable meat.

I've seen other instances of bull Caribou taking way more lead and copper than I would have imagined possible, but this is perhaps the best example.

BTW, I've also seen many of them drop stone dead to a C&C from a .308 or .25-06 behind the shoulder. The tough ones are the exception, for sure.

Stoned on testosterone?

I've seen a few that wouldn't. First was the second caribou I ever put a bullet into. But the bullet was a slightly misplaced 50 Blitz from a 22-250. Question answered I think. Another was a cow which took a 100 Core-lokt through the jaw after it had drilled through a big bull's chest. She went bonkers on that non-lethal hit. Had another take - and stop- two 200 BALTPs from the 340 at around 75 yards when the scope was off about 6" and was dropping them that far too far back - in the gut. That one never moved, but it didn't tip over either; just stood there until I shot it properly.

Klik, I got to hand it to you for honest reporting, warts and all.

I had to shoot a Blesbuck an honest 7 friggin' times with a 257 Bob and 100g TSX. PH finally caught it and put a knife in the brain to finish it. Needless to say I don't use TSX anymore, but on paper!

Hi guys,

I have been reading these posts with great interest. I am thinking about trying the TSX or TTSX in my 308s next season for moose (hopefully in NB, but more likely in Quebec). I may even give them a try for deer for no other reason than I am always trying different things.

For a typical 150 grain bullet, 47 grains of Varget gives me a speed of around 2700-2750 fps and 46 grains of Varget gives me a speed of 2600-2650 depending on a few different factors.

Since these velocities are not "barn burners" by any stretch of the imagination, would I be smart to go with the TTSX instead of the TSX. It sounds as though the tip would definitely initiate expansion a little faster which may be a good thing for the velocity range I am in. Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Colin

I've also killed a few with the 130gr TTSX doing 2700 from my takedown 99.

I'm tempted to try this in my .300 Savage. What powder do you use? Velocity?

H4895, I've run them from 2700 to just shy of 2900.

thanks!

I'm not hot-rodding my 7-08 at all and getting chrono muzzle velocities of 2800 and change so impact is down in the 2600 range and I've not had any issues with expansion of the original TSX but I have a couple boxes of the TTSX in 120 that I'm looking forward to trying. Can't picture better results than what I've had but I can't picture they're going to be worse.

Allen

what about spin, and chamber, and length from bullet to lands, when your gun goes off? if it is wobbleing when it comes out of the muzzle, how can you expect it to get better?

seems to me that a lot of this has to due with round in chamber, rather than down range; If your bullet is seated too far back, and has a chance to 'wobble', before is gets to the lands, your barrel is going to vibrate, and your bullet is not stable when it leaves your gun;There's more than one reason for this, but it is at the gun end, not the animal end; head space, throat dim, OAL, and other things will affect a bullet more than when it hits something;