Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters I'd like to discuss the Barnes TSX.

JB, It's been quite a while since I used Partitions. But... I never saw them perform all that different than other cup and core bullets other than they were harder to get accurate loads with. A good example of lead core bullets deflecting was a deer I killed this year (after it had been shot in the knee by a guy in my party). I was shooting a 30-30 with LeverEvolution 160s. The deer was maybe 100 feet away going through four foot high swamp grass. I had a decent chance at a back of the head shot so I took it. The front of the deer when down and the back up a little. The bullet hit one of the last two ribs down 3-4 inches from the top of the back. It should have penetrated just behind the diaphragm maybe catching a little liver. Instead it bounced up off the rib through the chops and out without touching the spine. I have seen many variations of this. Scapula hits, leg bone hits, rib hits, spine hits etc. Hit bone at an angle and it seems pretty easy to deflect bullets. That's why what I have seen with the Barnes is so impressive to me. I have only ever seen one barnes deflect, and it was not much. Deer was at 140-150 broadside. Shot from nineteen feet off the ground. Exit was maybe an inch above the entrance. Just barely enough to notice if you were looking. I look. Carefully at every one. My experience has been that they go through in a straight line that's very unexpectedly straight.

I have had two lose petals in deer. One was a 300 WM with a 150 X at 50 feet. In the mouth, shattered teeth, through the neck at the atlas and a petal lodged in the spin just in front of the pelvis. The other a TSX 130 in .270 at 80 feet was also in the mouth shattered teeth, out through the atlas. One petal was out a little off center on the neck a couple inches below the shank exit. The other petal made it through a lung and out the side of the rib cage in the middle.

Less those, all the rest of my experience has been uniform.

I intend to design a test to look at the what it takes to tumble one on the way to the target, and to examine the possibility of it re-stabilizing in some fashion traveling butt first.

Dave

sorry to hear about your Dad. Mine passed 2 years ago, it was a sad day.

Miles, any time you shoot something at an extreme angle like that a bullet has a good chance of deflecting. Barnes are not immune.

If the 300 X that made this hole:



...wasn't tumbling, then it must have pancaked flat in order to do that. Probably a 2100 fps launch speed into a 45 yard target, clipping the edge of the onside scapula.



The pictured X broke no bones, but it did hit some...sideways.

Gee, Miles, let me see:

100-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts, started at 3200 fps, hit a pronghorn buck in the right hip at 300 yards when the buck whirled (to threaten another buck) just as I shot. The buck was down and dead right there, because the bullet ended up in the left shoulder, in a direct line from the right hip.

115-grain Partition from a .257 Roberts AI, started at 3150 fps. This one hit a BIG eastern Montana whitetail buck at 80 yards, as the buck quartered strongly toward me. The bullet broke the near shoulder, ticked the underside of the spine, and went through the chest, ending up under the hide on the flank on the far side. Buck dropped instantly and never moved.

140-grain Partition from a 7x57. Hit an average mule deer buyck at the base of the neck 30 yards away, as he faced directly toward me in lodgepole timber. Bullet entered the dimple at the base of the neck, and was found in the rump, having gone the length of the deer. Buck was down and dead instantly.

150-grain Partition from a .270 Win. hit an average Shiras bull moose, quartering away, in the rear of the left ribs and ended up in the right shoulder, under the hide, almost three feet of penetration. Bull took a step and a half and dropped dead.

160-grain Partition from a .280. Hit a big mule deer buck (250 field-dressed) that was standing broadside, broke both shoulders and exited at 300 yards.

180-grain Partition from a .30-06, hit near shoulder of bull kudu at 350 yards as the bull stood almost broadside up a steep mountain. Bullet hit the edge of the shoulder joint, then went on upward and broke the spine, ending up under the skin on the far side of the spine.

200-grain Partition from a .300 Winchester Magnum, hit a 6-point bull elk in the big joint of the right shoulder as the bull quartered toward me. Bullet exited at the rear of the ribs on the far side, and the bull went 35 yards.

200-grain Partition from a .300 Weatherby, hit a raghorn bull elk at 375 yards right in the tailbone. The bull had been shot once already (in the bottom of the heart) but was still standing. Bull dropped at the shot and rolled downhill 50 yards. Bullet ended up in the front of the chest.

225-grain Partition from a .338 Winchester, broke the near shoulder joint on a 900-pound bull muskox at 200 yards, was found under the hide in the middle of ribs on the far side, retaining 85% of its weight.

Those are just a few examples of well over 100 animals taken with Nosler Partitions. The only Partition I've ever seen deflected, as I noted above, was a 150-grain .270 which broke a cow elk's pelvis--and it didn't deflect much.

If those are examples of typical cup-and-core performance, please tell me what cup-and-cores you've been using as I'd like to buy some.

Side note John, what bullet do you run in the 30/30 tube of your drilling?

I am curious as to what you think about cup and core at impact velocities under 2400 fps. I know I've had awfully good luck. I generally have gone to Barnes for the really fast rifles and Hornady's and Sierra's (215 gr in my .338-06 have shot plumb through deer) for the slower stuff.

That about sums it up.

I will add that I REALLY like the Norma Oryx for 'normal' speed cartridges. Haven't had a rifle that hasn't shot them extremely well.

Paul Walukewicz;
Please accept my condolences on your father's passing.

Mine passed almost 7 years ago now and I still want to call him to come over and look when the girls or I get a deer. When he couldn't hunt anymore he still liked to come have a look at what I'd caught up the mountain.

It's cool you got to hunt with him as much as you did, they look like grand memories there.

Merry Christmas to you and yours Paul.

Dwayne

165 180 and 200 Partitions? Hmmmmm?

I didn't start reloading for the '06, 300 Sav, and 308 with Partitions until I was 19 years old. We all wanted the Partitions because we wanted sure kills. Now, only 50 years (1/2 Century) later, the Partition still has no better, so I still load what people have confidence in.

When a better performer arrives, I'll be at the head of the line to use improved terminal bullet performance. But not yet.

Wayne

Paul, once again sorry for the loss of your father.

Really cool looking at all the picts of your time hunting with your dad. I never had that opportunity to do that with mine. You were blessed to have that time. Does not ease the pain from the loss, but none the less those are some great memories.

Thanks for posting the picts guy.

John

Steelhead,

Generally I run 170-grain Partitions in my old .30-30 drilling, but I'm not adamant about it. But I did have a cuop-and-core factory .30-30 bullet come apart on a whitetail shoulder once (which isn't supposed to happen) so I figure running Partitions is cheap insurance. They also just happen to shoot right to the old gun's sights with about any common load, as does factory 170-grain ammo.

Roger that, thanks. The only factory load that doesn't print 5" high is the 160gr Hornady Leverevolution. I'm thinking the quicker speed limits barrel time or something like that. I'm just starting to load for it now.

If you'd pay attention you would see that I am saying that the performance of Barnes in similar situations have not deflected and it was quite surprising. NPs have shown me that they are no different than any other lead core bullet. I have seen many deflect in just that kind of situation.

I am looking for answers to why some of this is different because the number of opportunities for deflection I have seen with Barnes is telling me it's outside just chance. There is really something different going on.

I have yet to see a single radical deflection.

Huntaria,

In general I've had good luck with cup-and-cores at lower velocities, but a lot depends on the style of bullet and how much bone it might encounter.

I've had two cup-and-core bullets come apart on deer shoulders, one a factory 150-grain RN from a .30-30 that broke up on a whitetail shoulder at about 125 yards, and one a 150-grain Winchester Slvertip .30-06 factory load that did the same thing on a mule deer shoulder at 200.

When using cup-and-cores on deer I tend to use heavier spitzers for the caliber. If shots can come at any range from near the muzzle out I tend to load them at no more than 2800 fps, but if shots are likely to be at least 200 yards or so I have loaded them much faster.

As any example, I use the 160 Sierra GameKing at 2700 in my 7x57 for general hunting of game up to 250 pounds or so, Have used it on deer and ewe bighorn here in the U.S., and on lots of smaller plains game from springbok to warthog in Africa. It works very well and I almost never recover one.

When I was fooling with the .264 Winchester Magnum several years ago I did some mule deer doe culling with the 140 Speer Hot-Core at 3200 fps. It worked perfectly, butnone of the shots were closer than 200 yards, where velocity had dropped to 2700 or so.

The Hornady Interlock is a little tougher than most other cup-and-cores, at least in my experience. The ones my wife and I have used a lot on various game from pronghorns to caribou are the 130- and 150-grain .270's, and the 139 7mm, all from either the .270 Winchester and .280 Remington. The only one I've seen come apart was a 130 .270 that my wife put into the front of the neck of a big pronghorn that was facing us at about 100 yards. We found what was left the jacket and core, separately, under the skin on the back of the neck--but that was after the bullet had totally smashed the neck bones.

The only time I drop the velocity to 2400 or so is if the shots are all going to be 200 yards or less. This is isually in rounds like the .30-40 Krag, .358 Winchester, etc. This works pretty well, but a lot depends on the size of the bone tha might be hit. I like the 250 Hornady RN in the .358 for this use, as it is pretty tough yet the RN helps it open easily. This works pretty well, even on animals bigger than deer, but if the bullet may have to get through REALLY big bone I much prefer some sort of premium bullet.

By the way, like Steelhead I have also had excellent luck with the Norma Oryx. It not only has shot very well in my rifles but performs very well on game. I have mostly used the 156 7mm and 180 .30 from the 7x57 and .30-06.

The best group I have ever shot with any rifle was three from my drilling 8x57JR Oryx factory stuff, which I happen to have a ton of. Quite literally was the one ragged hole. Still have no idea how the planets aligned on that one...

I suspect a lot of my C&C prejuidice is a function of caribou and goat shooting. Goats have the thickest bone of anything I have ever cut up. The bones are large in diameter and thick-walled, and pretty hard compared to other critters. Caribou win in the hardest bone category, though they are fairly light, it is hard! I have saved a fair bit of bone for knife handles and such and the differences are dramatic.

Bear bone is neither heavy nor hard and moose bone is just bigger. Sheep is just ordinary bone, too.

I have seen radical turns in C&C bullets placed in whitetails, though. And Partitions have never shown me they were any different.

Running them over the Juenke has proven interesting... The old screw machine partitions are the most consistent bullets we have run and the new ones are anything but...
art

Why would you want cup and cores that deflect?

I have found core-lokt to be fairly typical and they most assuredly will deflect like the LeverEvolution I mentioned. I shot them for a long time because they were decently accurate, performed as well as anything else available and were close enough to factory loads that I had a reasonable option if I had to shoot factory ammo. I still shoot them at times. just not at deer anymore.

The irony of it is that caribou are among the easiest of all medium big game to knock down in my experience. And while I do have a couple of Xs saved from 'bou which stopped them, one was a light for caliber which required a second animal to stop. (But I've also doubled with Ballistic Tips on caribou.) I don't think I collected a single 100 Sierra which I've used perhaps more than any other bullet for caribou; this in a 6mm. Caribou bone is both light and brittle IMO. Moose bone, OTOH, is neither and it has turned or stopped, without giving in, some of the best stuff out there IME.

Paul, sorry to hear about your dad...Can't imagine its going to be easy for me either when mine passes.




This is what sets you apart. You are truly a good guy to have here.

Miles,

I have tried to be patient with your posts, but you continue to astonish me with illogic.

First, you replied to one of my earlier posts about Partitions by describing the performance of a Hornady LeveRevolution bullet.

Now after I specifically describe many instances of deep, straight-line penetration with Partitions, and ask a straightforward (but apparently too subtle for you) question suggesting that such performance is NOT typical cup-and-core performance, you respond with something about Core-Lokts.

I have been reading your posts on all sorts of subjects for a while now and the only conclusion I can come to is either you have a very short attention span, a reading comprehension problem, or simply aren't very bright. Sorry to put it so bluntly, but I can't come to any other conclusion.