Looking for a lesson on pack animals.



What is the good and the bad, the preferred as a pack animal. For arguments sake let's discuss pure pack animal to pack in gear, not ride.

Horse, Mule, Ass, Burro, what do you prefer for an exclusive pack animal.

Which are sure footed under load, which can pack the biggest load, which have bad behavior making them not worth the hassle? Can one get by with less water than another?

Thank you.

I haven't been around them too much, but from my limited experience I prefer a mule over a horse. YMMV...

What are you going to pack, how much , and where? I like mules. To ride and pack. I have both and use both but prefer mules. All need the same amount of water to do the work. Water is the cheap feed.

IMHO, a good mule is the best animal for packing. I have done what you're proposing with both. Mules generally can handle more dead weight that a horse of the same size and they are less likely to get into a jackpot.

For just gear, you left out goats. A big one can pack 50+ pounds, they're sure-footed (seen 'em cross streams on a log with a load) they'll eat anything, and they'll follow you around like dogs would. At least the ones I've seen.

Don't know all that much but I can share what I do know

Mules legs are more symetrical (same length) than a horses so they can do down hill better, and tend not to charge uphill like a horse does.

Spot

I am ranch raised, have guided, ranched and been in the hunting business for years and I am still an avid team roper...

Mules are good and carry about 20% of their body weight, a horse can carry about 10%...This is dead weight, not a cowboy in a saddle, so the mule is stonger, the burro is even stronger than a mule, but burros are a pain to handle, they are just too stubborn to suit me at all...

I actually prefer horses as they are easier to be around as a rule, most mules have a flaw and you'll find it sooner or later. the other thing is I hate to get around Mule men, they are generally not well versed and not cowboys and loaded with BS about thier beloved animals....Both animals have good and bad traits, and its probably an individual thing more than a breed thing, but on the whole I will take a horse every time for packing or riding, they are simply smarter and more responsive and more capable of activity.

As to sure footedness the mule men always use this but its fallicy, sure footedness comes from where and how the animal was raised, if both are raised in the rough country then both do well. If they have never been shod then they have equally hard feet, but if you load them your better off to just keep them shod IMO. Once you shoe either then you have to continue to do so in most cases. Also since we pen our livestock these days and they are not constantly in the rocks for months at a time or they are in small grass pastures then the feet become soft and you need shoes.

The length of legs on horses and mules has to do with anything. The height and size of the animal determines the length of thier legs, and neither will charge uphill unless you failed to break them properly, and the same applies to downhill thats utter nonsence.

I like them both and use them both, and I don't waste my time in comparing them as a rule. I judge each animal on his own abilities and so it should be.

Wow, I'm not a 'cowboy' like Ray, but I was raised, and worked in the same area as him. From my observation in a number of hunts in the back country, he is spot on. I've packed both, ridden both, (I prefer the easy riding of a mule,) but he's nailed it. But I really love a 'good' mule. Totally agree.

Goats - a much better idea.

I'm one of the "mule men, Ray loves to hate. Usually the problem is the ignorance or predjudice of those who think mule men know nothing. In reality it is the "cowboy" who is usually short sighted in the superiority of the mule. Thier problem usually comes from the fact that they are use to bullying a horse and then they get up against a mule that will not bully. I have worked cattle,horses, driven, packed ,guided, ridden mules for many years.I will stack my knowledge up againsts others any time as to being well versed.

Usually the undesireable traits attributed to mules comes directly from improper training or handling, not the breed in itself. Hence the statement horses are usualy easier to get along with. The second most common problem is selecting undesireable brood mares or jacks that produce unsuitable temperment in mules. Given that a horse or mule is trained properly and take that out of the equation a mule will excel a horse in about every other capacity.

It is a proven fact that mules eat about 60-75% of what a horse does.They are by nature healthier and not prone to all the maladies that horses are.They will out work a horse of similar stature. They usually have an easier gait than a horse. They can subsist on rougher forage and although they do colic and founder,it is less prevalent in a mule
Due to thier inherited higher sense of self presevation that thay get from the donkey side of the equation, they get into less trouble if left alone. It is true that once you start to use shoes, you usually have to keep at it,but mules in general have tougher and healthier feet than a horse. If both are left unshod, the mule will go longer in rougher country all other things being equal. Mules do better in heat than horses, which is one reason they were used in Death Valley Borax mines. In certain parts of the country like NM St Augustine Plains and the high desert country of AZ,you now can find more mules being used to work ranches than horses, becasue they do better in the heat and rough country. You can work a horse to death,but a mule will stop before that happens( another reaosn" cowboys " don't like mules). Raise both a horse and a mule in the same country and the mule will learn faster and better to be aware of where it puts it's feet, ie,being more sure footed.Take a flat land raised mule and put it up aginst a mountain raised horse and yes the mule will look like a club footed drunk.

The glorified jobs are left to the horses, but when push comes to shove those in the know go get a mule to get the job done. Mules have been trained to do every thing a horse does and then some,however,a lot of folks miss the part about certain mules are bred to do certain jobs better,just as certain horses are bred to do certain jobs better.

Have you ever heard of horse back rides down into the Grand Canyon? There is a reason for that!

I had a coworker that would buy small raw MO mules and break them to bridle/pack each summer. He would take them elk hunting to CO in the fall and sell them to outfitters before his return to help finance his trip. He said that outfitters out there were always looking for them.

My dad and his family were very good hostlers. I still have family that keep draft horses, go to pulling matches, and ride working cattle horses for a living. My dad liked working mules, but we never had any in my time. He talked about their personalities. He always rode one home from the field. He said that once in a while the one that he would be riding would plant his feet and dad would pitch off of the front. He also said that in a hard rainstorm, the mules would go through a single barn door with the harness on, by one holding back and the other going through. He said that he never had horses that could do that.

It has not been mentioned that some hikers use llamas for pack.

And they taste better!

I like mules for a pack string. But if I was just going to lead one pack animal around I'd go more for the individual than breed.

So what would you look for in a mule that would give you a good indication of his behavior? How about male or female, are the the females as a rule usually better behaved?

Thanks for fielding the greenhorn questions.

I think some would say so but it isn't true in my experience. We have 18 or 19 mules that I work with every summer and a couple more in the fall.

For a greenhorn I'd look at spending a bunch of money on an old mule that has been there and done that. We get cheap mules quite a bit but they usually have issues. Hard to catch, hard to load, kicking, not leading, bucking, you name it. After lots of miles of packing they mostly turn into pretty decent pack mules. But the average guy isn't going to have that chance. Spending a bunch now will save you money, blood, and sweat later on. Trust me. And the same is pretty much true for horses although you could probably get a decent pack horse for less than a good mule.

Also most any mule or horse will do much better with a buddy around.

Ditto what Ralphie said.
John mules will seem to test you more,but are more stable. I prefer them to mollies, although the last two I bred came out mollies and you can't shove them back and ask for new plumbing. There are good and bad things to say about both. Get a molly that is bitchy during her cycle and it's not fun.

A 15-18 yr ld mule still has at least 10 years work ahead of it if not more and one of you should know whats going on. My pack mule is 28. It's a darn site easier if you don't know and the mule does vs the opposite.

If packing I prefer one 13&1/2-14 hds. The big ones can't carry all that much more and are a darn site harder to lift packs up on.

Well saddlesore I can't argue with your post and your right I am short sighted on mules! I am prejudice also! but I did say I loved a "good mule".

I sure don't mind hunting off a mule or covering country on a mule, they have always had a place in my remudas, but I hate to cowboy off a mule, they mostly can't run and are not quick enough to suit me and I get agrivated when some mule experts try to challange that statement, it puts them in the mule men catagory that "don't know nothing" IMO.

A mule is a mule and a horse is a horse and they have different diciplines and I see little reason to compare them, but it makes good conversation, and heated arguements!

After a realistic appraisal of my lack of experience, desire to not get hurt, and time available for me to learn and to train animals, I elected to get llamas and this has worked out great for me. I have a string of 5. When they are in shape the carry 70 to 100 pounds each, for 10 to 15 miles a day depending on terrain. Low maintenance, don't eat much, learn quickly, and so on. They keep bears out of camp and love to chase strange dogs out of the pasture. We have had cougars around periodically but as far as I can tell they have never approached the llamas.

Ray, thought you might enjoy this post from another forum from a lady in Alberta.

Hi Everyone
I Inhabit the great white north in the province of Alberta southern portion around Pincher Creek have been riding mules since 92 and feel honored and privileged to have a couple of very nice to ride cattle handling mules we hauled to Drummond Montana a number of years ago and competed in Montana Mule Days having a great time. I also have one that earned the right to go to the Canadian National Finals Team roping and although we did not go I am very proud of Pokey and his ability to compete against top level horses with a rider that is not the most capable. it is with great pleasure that I read the comments of others who have made the mule the riding animal of choice and who also enjoy the advanced personality of the mule of which there are 5 distinct different ones at my place. Am looking forward to reading the posts and comments
Lynn

I have owned both mules and horses and agree with both Ray and Saddlesore.

Mules are only for guys who simply like mules.

If you are not drawn to mules you will most likely not enjoy their quirks of personality enough to get to the advantages they offer for packing and rough country travel.

I switched to riding mules in 2006 and have never looked back. The advantages for me are:

1. Mules travel faster and can go much longer than horses. A quarter horse type mule will beat a quarter horse and a gaited mule will beat a gaited horse in speed and distance when traveling in rough country. The mule can keep it up day after day.
2. I am less tired at the end of a 30 mile ride on a mule than a horse.
3. Mules can get by on less feed and less water. One friend of mine will go 2 � days without water in extreme situations and has never coliced any of his mules. I don�t ever do that but it would kill most horses.
4. Mules can out climb horses and carry more weight. I always felt like my horse was struggling to haul me and all the gear I stick on my saddle up really steep hillsides but my mule doesn�t seem to notice.

It seems to me that the mule has about the same level of advantage over the horse in rough country travel as the horse has over the mule in roping and other speed type events.

Watching someone roping off a mule looks just as awkward to me as watching a horse climb a really steep hill carrying a big load.

I like John Mules (gelded males) for riding and leading the string and mollies (female) for packing and letting friends ride.

A good mule is prolly best and I'm a horse guy. Saddlesore is right that it takes different handling w/ a mule. Only problem for me is I just know horses? I spent 6 days in the bob Marshall in June and my walkin horses did all I'll ever need them to do. My friend that I went in with grew up with the Cheff family that have outfitted in the bob for ever. They pack mules cause they are tougher. I plan on going every year from now on but once a year trips don't call for revamping my stock. I packed a 3 yr old walker and can't help but think if he did it at 3 he do just as good next yr? If u know mules great but if not it seams easier to get a good horse than good mule.

The best and most reliable pack animal is.........................................the one owned by someone else.

Lefty C

There are pros and cons to both mules and horses. If you plan on getting an animal and just using it once a year for a hunting trip, it's an accident waiting to happen. And it won't wait very long to happen. If you have to get one, a mule that has been used a lot in a pack string and is getting too old to be used heavily would be your best bet. Young mules are batsh!t crazy crackheads.

I probablly should have spelled out a little more detail from the start. My partner and myself are both in our fifties, we can both still carry a decent sized pack into National Forrest, but were thinking how much more enjoyable it would be with an animals to help us carry gear in, and animals out, six or seven miles.

I have a friend who has a ranch and deals in livestock quite a bit, and has owned a lot of animals, cattle, horses and mules. My partner and I were thinking about buying him a mule that he would let us borrow. He has the trailer, room to put him, and also knows animals and has trained mules before.

I was trying to get a handle on what would be the best animal to follow a couple of guys in six or seven miles, then we would approach him and see how he felt about us buying him a mule or other pack animal. I don't think he hunts, but his son has expressed an interest in going with us. He might already have an animal we could use, but I would rather offer to buy one we could borrow for the next fifteen years, then just ask to borrow his.

I'm sure he would be willing to teach us about the animal and the problems we could expect with it.

Why not offer to rent his. He would get some oney out of one he owns and it would be cheaper for you. Buying these critters are the cheapest part.Keeping them is what gets expensive

That is a thought.

What kind of terrain are you talking about hiking in on? If riding isn't a prerequisite, all you want is a critter for company and to haul your animals out that's a pretty easy find. A mule broke to pack and not ride will be cheaper than one to do both. But that being said, if you're not able to dally the lead rope around your horn and drag if necessary to get him started, ...

As you can see by the thread so far there are many many variables. But either way you go, if all you want is to pack not pack/ride, that should make your options cheaper and easier. Training one to pack is a much shorter, and easier and therefor cheaper option.

Just my $.02

Thanks, ya, that is pretty much our thinking. We both have some small physical limitations that lead to kinked backs and a sore knee or two, nothing that would limits us from hiking, however the thought of losing a heavy pack when going from say 7000 to 10,000 is mighty tempting. Most of our hunting is on the Sierra on National Forest land, no wheels allowed, not even a cart.

We usually hunt 200 miles from home, pre-scouting most of the time is not possible. Sometimes water isn't where it is supposed to be, trying to take extra water in case the creek on the topo it dry, can be a back breaker. Just having an animal to take in 15 gallons of water and a few other things could be a godsend. Then losing the water and replacing it with meat would make for a lot easier trip.

A good mule is best, but they are also the rarest.

The wrangler (you) has to be smarter than the pack animal. That's why most packers don't use mules or Arabians. Being green, you would probably do better with a horse each, IMO.

For what you want, renting would seem to be the best thing. It does not sound like you want to do other equestrian events or activities. You would do best with a short stout horse, 14 - 14.2 hands.

Another thing...

The best thing you can do is take a couple of trips with an experienced hand to learn what to do, what NOT to do, when and how to do it, etc.

Apprenticing can save your life or injuries.

Remember, all animals have their quirks. My buddy, an outfitter, who packs all the time was telling me how good one of his mules was. He said "He's a great mule. You can put an elk on him, as long as he can't see it or smell it."

I have 5 Pack Llamas.They can go where no horse or mule can.You only have to take about 30lbs of oats to feed them and they scrounge for the rest.Of course you are going to be walking yourself.My animals are large gelded males and go over 450 lbs.They can pack 90 lbs.Two can haul all the gear for two guys and you have three to haul out game.

I have been around Horses and Mules since I was a small child. Our family started out with 16 horses in which there were a couple Mules..Those were all pack and Mountain horses that already passed basic mountain training...

Theirs good and bad in both arena's.I have seen more bad horses in the hills than Mules but that doesn't mean much as the best Mountain/Pack animals I have ever been around, were Horses.Two were Palomino's and one was a quarter horse.

The worst ever was a Burro who hated water.Friends who worked with my Dad who wanted to hunt with us would just go out and buy a horse which had never been in the hills other than the foothills around Boise..Saw alot of Rodeo's in the mountains when game was put on them or a rifle fired and the smell of Cougars and Bears.

If I was ever to get back in the horse buisness,I would only buy Mountain horses or Mules that are tried and proven in the hills around what we do.I'm to old to go down or get stepped on or kicked or 10 feet sideways in an instant,

Jayco

You are right there Jayco.I get a lot of entertainment every year form folks bringing flat land stock to CO and using it.

Wonder what you do when you have 150 lb elk quarter and a llama that can only pack 90 lbs.

A good mule is 10 times better than good horse, but a bad mule is 100 worse than a bad horse.

A fourwheeler

I don't use the traditional saw 'em up in 4 pieces way. Instead I use the gutless method and take the legs off from the outside, and bone them out if too heavy

Hear this as joking but it is funny when folks talk about the flatland stock. My friend in Missoula rode us hard about our stock before the trip and till the day we went in. After two days he started asking questions and by the end of the week he said he'd have a walkin horse by elk season. He does and loves it? Just like guns you have many types to choose from and that ain't a bad thing if your happy with what you have?

Funniest thing is when guys bring thier daughter's or wives arena/gykhana horse elk hunting and then use a riding saddle with the Colorado type paniers that fit over them. Usually the horse has never seen them, they get packed unbalanced and over loaded.The bags are way down low so they are pressing on the horses sides into the ribs and the horse is struggling to catch it's breath, maintain it's balance from the uneven loads, and when they do stop to give the horse a breather ,the poor thing's legs are quivering with exhaustion

What he didn't realize about our area is we have tough trails here too. No we don't climb 10,000 ft but we climb more often and steeper. Our hills are very short compared to those pulls we made out west but like I said many more of them and we don't switch back and forth. I've got good friends that have hunted Colorado for years and years and the riding we have here gets their mules in shape for what they do.

Very well said about a good mule being better than a good horse and a bad mule being worse than a bad horse. The mules do look more mountain'ish though.....grin

Veryp

Veryp was a screw up with phone

Some horses and owner/operators are unprepared for hunting trips. That's for sure.

I've met folks from outside that talk about their daughter's barrel horse, and her pole bending horse, and then her jumping horse, and so on. Each activity with a different horse.

Up here they have to do everything. We barrel race, pole bend, rope, trail ride, hunt, pack meat on the same horse. Sometimes in the same week.

Well I bone all the meat out.Meat goes out in one trip,then go back for the gear.Course I realize a lot of folks do not like to walk so a Mule or horse would work better for them.

So what about gender in a mule, does it matter? Are you more likely to have a male give you problems than a female? I get that every animal is an individual, but does gender play a role?

Sometimes gender maks a difference, but it is usually the individual animals temperment.

Just can't help myself, one great uncle ran the remount station @ 9 mile, raised mules & was an "old Time" cowboy, grandad taught me to pack both, I've packed for outfitters & owned both horses & mules so here's my opinion..... Both have a place & I love them both in their place. I like to pack mules better than horses & if I have a choice, I'll ride a horse both in the mountains & cowboying. Mules seem to get into less trouble as a rule, but they have more personality quirks. I have bought horses from the flatlanders that we turned into pretty good mountain horses, but they are both much better when raised in the rough country. I never could rope as good as Ray, but I've been on enough good horses that they are my preferred transportation. This is sort of like an argument between Ford, Chevy, & Dodge owners -- kinda funny.
MC
Oh, by the way, I went to high school with some of the Cheff kids (long long ago) and they were tough enough they didn't really need mules.

Make friends with your ass...for it will bear your burdens.


Anonymous,and probably for good reason!

My partners of the last 30 years own both mules and horses. I'd personally favor a well trained mule over a horse any day. Pound for pound, mules can carry a bit more, and are less inclined to spook and instigate a total wreck. A couple have left a dead horse in the wilds, but never a mule.

Most long string packers I've seen in the wilderness run a string of mules and ride a horse.