Now that I have a .223 sporter on the way, and chatted a while with a guy at the range Sunday about his Dakota lightweight .280 AI, I am becoming curious about these "improvements."

I'm trying to think of all the advantages and disadvantages of having one -- perhaps if my new factory barrel won't shoot, or if I shoot it out.

Pros:

A bit higher velocity.
Longer case life.
Less case trimming.
Weird/unusual/esoteric.


Cons:

Fire forming
More expensive dies
Need to anneal cases?
Weird/unusual/esoteric. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What am I missing? So far I don't see any pluses or minuses that would actually make up my mind for me, but since I know there are many "AI" fans as well as some skeptics on this board, I am very interested to hear what people have to say.

From what I have read I don't know if anealing is necessary.

I also have heard it said that AI-ing a round is really only worth it on a few calibers but almost all of them have had it done.

The ones I hear being the best to AI are the 7x57 and 257 roberts. Those are the two I have heard really seem to respond to AI and are worth doing. I am sure there are more but I am not aware of them (that is pure ignorance not a comment on the value of AI).

As you are talking the 223 i am sure Stick is gonna come in and help out and i am gonna bet he is gonna say DO IT as the 223AI is a pet favorite of his.

I would shoot the crap out of it and when the throat starts to go set it back and punch her out to AI - lots of use outta that factory tube. YMMV...

Doing an AI conversion will not appreciably resovle a worn throat since only a reaming of the chamber and very slight setback of the barrel occurs.

JMO, one of the merits of the AI wildcat approach is more practical than other alternatives. If properly executed you get to shoot factory ammo with little loss of performance, and fireform brass in the process. I am unaware of any that require annealing to form, see the previous sentence. Whether or not you join in wildcat endeavor is a personal choice. To a large degree you will find that there are commercial cartridges that deliver similar performance so the benefits are not always that great, particularly with case designs that leave small latitude for enhancing case capacity, such as the .308 Win. Where the rewards seem to grow however is the world of varmint hunting. There are no commercial cartridges out there that will drive .224 and 6mm bullets to 4400 fps or faster, so if speed is your game have at it.

Another aspect of this is that when Ackley developed the myriad of his improved 'cats he did not have the array of powders that we have today, especially in regards to slow burners, and subsequently was not terribly impressed with some of his creations, several of which are relatively popular today such as the .243/6mm AI. the 6mm-06 is probably another one, and based on performance reported by users today it is a fine round.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ackleying a cartridge is a polarizing subject. The very experienced Mule Deer recently wrote an article on the "Bob" in which he mentioned that he did not think too much of the AI version. Yet, the equally experienced Dogzapper, thinks that the 280 AI is the greatest thing going.

When you boil it down, it seems that the often quoted 4-1 rule (increase powder capacity by 4%......gain 1% in velocity) is pretty much inviolate. Most AI's increase case capacity by 8% - 12% so you can do the math. There are some who might report greater increases, but it's a fair bet that they are loading to higher pressures in order to get there. (remember how unreliable "normal" pressure signs really are)

I have done an '06 AI but don't think I'd bother to do it again. The one exception is on a varmint rifle where I might shoot it a lot. Then the case life and less trimming makes a lot of sense. If one is just seeking a tad more velocity, there are easier ways to get there.

JimF

fwiw,
According to Gordy Gritters and Darrell Holland the .223 AI does not feed as well as the standard case. Not leading to feed jams so much but requiring that you "jiggle" the bolt a bit until the case slips into the chamber. It's not a big deal, however, it's one of the small reasons I'm sticking to the .223 in factory form... fwiw & ymmv.

Regards, Matt.

To clarify my question on annealing -- doesn't the added case life and reduced trimming, come at the price of work-hardening the neck like any other case, thus requiring annealing to get the maximum use out of the cases you had to fireform?

I guess what I'm pondering is the tradeoff -- is the added case life worth the other hassles, when new cases for most standard cartridges cost maybe 30-35 cents apiece? (And in some cartridges like .223, the 30 cents also gets you a primer, some powder and a bullet.)

John

Another take on the so called improved cartridges is that it's good clean fun. So maybe everyone who wants one should try one.

In general they are no improvement at all in any way but if the chambering is done right so that factory rounds can be fired with the headspace set right then the rifle is not going to be as big a hassle as a true wildcat.

The improved cartridges based on rimless cases work well in this regard and those on rimmed or belted cases don't due to the fact that they suffer head separations.

So if you don't have one and have a couple of hundred bucks to spare for entertainment then get one.

If you have to ask then AI'ing is probably not for you. I do it because I can and I don't sweat the small stuff. It's fun and that is what I'm looking for in a hobby. I'm not looking for big performance gains. Just looking to do something different after owning just about everything else. To me AI'd cases look way cool and that adds to the "customness" of my custom rifles. For me that is what it's about but your mileage may vary, and that's fine with me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

X-VERMINATOR

Doing the Ackley in 30-30 gives that cartridge a big boost, makes it more in line with the 300 savage. If the rechambering is done correctly then factory cartridges can be fired with no ill effects. I've yet to have a seperated case in the 30-30ai and some cases have been fired over a dozen times. The ai case don't stretch as much as the regular 30-30 cases do.
There are some cartidges that will give definte improvement in ballistics and some that won't. But they are fun to mess with.

My take on it is that some cartridges are greatly helped by the Ackley treatment and others are not. Having played with literally all of them, my opinion is that the best are the .223 Ackley, the .22-250 Ackley, the .250 Savage Ackley, the 6.5-'06 Ackley and the .280 Ackley.

As Ranch13 pointed out, the .30-30 Ackley is a fantastic cartridge. Actually, it also is a special case because the Improved case configuration lessens the bolt thrust on weak lever actions and adds to performance at the same time.

Over the years, I've owned, shot and killed with the .243 Win Ackley, the .260 Ackley and the 7-'08 Ackley. I still own the .260 Ackley and the 7-'08 Ackley and consider them meaningful cartridges. Basically, the .260 Ackley gives 6.5-'06 performance and the 7-08 Ackley gives the power of the standard .280 Remington, all in a short action.

My impression is that over-bore cartridges display less performance enhancement when given the Ackley tretment than somewhat smaller, less intense rounds. For instance, the increase in the .250 Ackley is impressive, while the .25-'06 Ackley shows only minimal gains over the parent cartridge.

I shoot an incredible amount of .223 rounds every year and I tend to wear out actions. The Ackley case configuration greatly lessens bolt thrust and I find that actions shot with barrels chambered for .223 Ackley tend to last a long, long time (actually I haven't worn out a Rem 700 with the .223 Ackley yet!!).

Case stretching? Cases just need minimal trimming every 7-10 rounds, where it is every 2-3 with standard cases. Being a lazy fella, I like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I fireform .223 Ackleys in the field. Accuracy is first-rate and the rifle kills just as well as the standard .223 (which is a really wonderful cartridge, anyway.)

For big game Ackleys; I have several barrels for my "fireform rifle" and it is easy to machine-gun fireform rounds at the range. I do not have barrels for a couple of my big game Ackley rifles, so I fireform slow and easy, so the barrel is not harmed.

No, annealing is not needed. New brass is a must because cases previously fired in a standard chamber is apparently work-hardened to the extent that it will not fireform properly to the Ackley configuration.

In the case of the .223. I have never had a single problem feeding .223 Ackley cases and my three rifles have an experimental absolute-minimum case taper. I've heard of the problem, particularly on Winchester M-70s (I hate M-70s), but I have never seen it with any of my Remington 700s. Actually, one of my Remington 700s that tended to feed poorly actually improved when barreled to the .223 Ackley. Go figger.

Fine gunsmiths, like Gordy Gritters (who is about as good as gunsmiths get), pay special attention to the feed ramp when working with Ackley chamber jobs. Gordy also polishes the chamber a bit more on Ackleys, so the cases fireform better.

More later, if there is an interest.

Best to all, Steve

The interest is ther - please feel free to drop a complete book in one post!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I knew the 280 AI was popular with the beanfield deer hunting crowd but the 7mm-08AI interrests me - what can you say more about it?

Thank you!

Count one more vote with Teals for more ackley info.

You would do yourself well to pick up a copy of P.O. Ackley's HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS. There are 2 volumes, Vol 1 deals mostly with the more common cartridges that have been improved and Vol 2 covers all the rest. Both have great articles about reloading, hunting and much more. He comes out and not only picks favorites but also tells you if the cartridge isn't worth improving. The loading data is a bit dated as these were first published in the 60's but at least you have insight straight from the horses mouth. Before the internet these were some of the best sources of loading data for his imporved cartridges.

DZ,

Thanks for the great rundown. I keep returning to the issue of brass life. In a cartridge such as .223 I'm not sure how much weight to give that issue in general, but will ask anyway -- how many loadings do you usually get out of an "improved" case?

I've also never shot any rifle case enough to start splitting necks, but from reading (e.g. John B's "Factors in Accuracy" piece on this site) have been under the impression that after several firings, work hardening will cause erratic bullet release, with annealing as the cure.

But, I expect the overwork would be reduced by firing in tight custom chambers and use of bushing-type dies, especially if you mostly neck-size -- am I getting that right?

Also, I have read Ackley's book, and while interesting I found it dwelled more on extreme increases in velocity, than in what may be more "real world" benefits. Would appreciate citations to any other writings in the area!

John

Actually the Ackley Improvement does not change the case head thrust at all. The portion of the chamber
that is modified holds the brass under pressure. It is furthue back that the brass will stretch and press
against the breech. Berore you scream do the trig calculations and see what difference in friction could be
possible. Ackley fired a 30/30 AI in an unlocked mod 94. A standard cartridge would have acted the same
in a dry chamber.
Good luck!

John,

Frankly, I've never lost an Ackley case from overworking. Occasionally, I get crazy with pressure and expand a bunch of primer pockets, but I've never worn them out.

I have a "lucky" box of .280 Ackley cases that have been fired something over 20 times; they still shoot exceptionally and are killers. They look kinda scruffy, but they have been my killer cases on many hunts.

Yes, literally all of my chambers are custom and obviously are minimum. Neck expansion not to exceed .003" does wonders for neck life. Also, bushing dies help case life because the necks are worked only as much as they need to be.

Karen and I are celebrating our 40th Anniversary today, so I may not be on the 24Hour Forum a lot today.

Best, Steve

Congrats on the anniversary, DZ. Forty years of marriage - that's awesome!

CONGRATS- now do something nice for yourself - buy another rifle!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Congratulation, 40 years - I'm admiring your wife

RD

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY 40 YEARS IS QUITE A MILESTONE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

HBB

Congratulations on 40 years.

I am thinking of doing a 223AI. What should be done to insure that factory issue loads shoot well enough to kill prairie dogs and fireform brass with the same trigger pull?

DZ, I have the following Ackleys: 6mm, .257 Roberts, 7mm Mauser, .280, 8mm-06, .35Whelen, .375-06 and .375 [email]H@H.[/email] I have noticed the largest gains in the 6mm, .257, 7mm, and the .375 Ackley. My favorites are the 6mm Ackley, .257 Ackley, .280 Ackley and the 8mm-06 Ackley. I really enjoyed the article you wrote in Varmint Hunter on the .280 Ackley. It was extremely well written and very informative. Your results corresponded a lot with what I experienced with both my .280 Ackley and .280 RCBS improved. All of these cartridges are fun to shoot and in my mind just having/shooting something that not every Tom, Dick and Harry have is very stimulating.

PDS,

I've suffered through several reader's custom .223 Ackley rifles. Honestly, I haven't seen a one that didn't shoot factory ammo great. In fact, the typical reader comments, "Wow, it shoots factory GREAT (usually half-inch or so). I wonder if it can possibly shoot my Ackley handloads nearly as well." Yeah, they always shoot well, whether the ammo is factory or precision handloads.

As an aside, I've shot factory .223 ammo in all three of my .223 Ackleys in the Leupold tube. Winchester Supreme, Hornady and Black Hills all shot beyond my expectations (all under 3/4 for 5-shot groups). I have no contacts at Remington or Federal, but I have every reason to believe that they would be great, too.

The ability to fire, and fire with accuracy, factory ammo in an Improved varmint gun is an excellent attribute for a gun writer's rifle. The ammo companies hand out all the free ammo you can shoot on the industry prairie dog hunts. Hell, I ain't proud; I'll shoot the stuff and go home with scads of wonderfully fireformed brass. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I always travel with a case or so of .223 Ackley handloads. On the windy afternoons, the .223 Ackley with a 40-grain Ballistic or V-Max at 4,000 fps makes dogs just plain easier to hit.

Back to your question: I suspect a lot of the accuracy in foreforming is a function of a great chamber. Your gunsmith should headspace the Improved .003" to .005" SHORT of the headspace datum of the standard .223 Remington. This type of chamber crushes the shoulder and indexes the round in the center of the chamber. At the same time, the case base is held hard against the bolt face.

Off the subject: I have experienced much lower extreme spread (and corresponding standard deviation figures) with Ackley cartridges, when compared to the parent rounds. This is painting with a broad brush, but I think the relationship is a true one.

This is especially true in the .223 Remington versus the .223 Ackley. I seemingly cannot get low extreme spreads in the .223 Rem. Yeah, I can get superb accuracy with the standard .223, but the high ES/SD figures bug me.

I've heard folks say that Ackley cartridges give finer accuracy than standard rounds and I believe this is total BS. In my opinion, accuracy is a function of the 4B's. Accuracy comes from a great barrel, superb bedding, excellent brass and a perfect bullet...........I would add a "C"---Chamber. If the chamber is perfectly aligned to the bore and cut as it should be, it adds a lot.

Actually, what I think such folks are seeing is the effect of a custom chamber versus a factory hack-job.

More later, I have to attend my bride of FORTY YEARS. She's still as lovely as the lass I married on July 11, 1964. She's a better shot now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll try to attach a photo of the lady to this post. Photo was taken about seven months ago.

Steve

Congrats on the 40 years. Now go have fun with the Misses...

Hey DZ;
Congrats on the forty year milestone!! My wife & I will celebrate ours on Aug. first. Who would have thought any woman could put up with the likes of me this long.
Enjoy!
Jerry

Congratulations Steve! Marg and I just celebrated our 37th!



.........and thanks again for your encouragement a while back on my 223 Ackley project; 40 gr Ballistic Tips are going just under 4000 ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Yukoner,

Congratulations yourself!! Isn't it amazing how few folks stay together and how wonderful it is when you do.

I'm delighted the .223 Ackley project worked out so well for you. It is just a super-excellent round.

By the way, Karen and I went jack rabbit hunting on our honeymoon. 1964 was about the peak of the rabbit cycle in Central Oregon and the ranchers were pleading for hunters to kill the dang things. We killed several hundred each per day and had a blast.

Thanks again,

Steve

Man do I feel inadequate. I am coming up on 5 this October.

Congrats to all.

Oh, another thought before Killer Karen and I get dinner ready.

In big game Ackley cartridges, a lot of folks simply treat them as a slightly-super version of the parent cartridge, with the added reloading benefit of lessened trimming.

For instance, Nosler's last handloading manual quotes a super-hot .280 Remington load (with RL-19) that launches a 140-grain bullet at 3,152 fps. Undoubtedly, the pressure is pretty spiffy and it is just about all the steam a fella is likely to get out of the .280.

My most-used big game load in the .280 Ackley gets 3,170 fps out of the 140 Ballistic Tip and it is devistating on anything from antelope to elk. The load is more than adequate, cases last forever and primer pockets stay tight forever. It's all I need and could ever want.

Yes, I can (and used to) shoot the same bullet at 3,250+ fps. At the higher velocity level, the accuracy is still superb, but case life (especially primer pockets) is shorter and extraction feels very, very slightly sticky when temperatures are unexpectedly high. Yeah, it shoots a bit flatter, not that I'd notice it at game ranges, but the extra oomph just doesn't seen worth it.

Basically, at 3,170 fps I'm shooting the hottest mother of a .280 Remington, only I'm enjoying the benefits of much lower pressure by using the larger .280 Ackley case configuration. There is a large safety factor built into the case, when used in this fashion.

Oh, I might mention that when I finally settle on a new big game load, whether Ackley or not, I fire the load in a single case ten times.

I handload at the range and it is easy to do this test. Anyway, I figger that if a single cartridge case can be loaded with the new load and still have a tight primer pocket , the load is of low enough pressure to be safe. Yeah, it's kind of Cowboy Ballistics, but it is a sure-fire emperical test of a new load.

Off to dinner. Water buffalo tenderloin; yum, yum. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Congats to your and your lovely lady DZ. Babe and I hit the 38 year mark in April, and yes, she is a better shot than when we got married also. Matter of fact, somedays she is a better shot than I am!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My experience with Ackley cartridges is about like most everyone else. I think it is something everyone should try at least once in their lifetime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I have had a 257 AI and a 30-06 AI. I came a stones throw from making a 338-06 AI but ended up with a 338 Win Mag instead. My 30-06 AI was an enjoyable experience, but I finally realized that about all I was trying to do was get 300 Mag velocities from a 30-06 case. I managed to push the 200 grain Nosler Partition to a bit past 2900 with good accuracy and perhaps more pressure than made sense. I finally ended backing off to 2850 and used this load and rifle for a couple of years on most everything when I lived in North Idaho. Trouble was, I still pushed the same bullet some faster in a 300 Win Mag with less strain on the brass and no doubt on the rifle also. Finally someone thought they couldn't live without it and ended up taking it home with them. As far as I know they still have it and use it every year. The 257 AI has a similair story, but not nearly as happy an ending. The barrel was replaced with a 25-06 tube and it also has found a new home. I don't know where that rifle is anymore.

I might add, that although Clay Harvey has drawn a bit of critiism on this forum, evidently rightfully so I might add, he made a statement that I do agree with. He mentioned that if a person was going to push Ackley Improved rounds to the limit he would suggest using Remington rifles. Both of the Ackleys I had were on 721 actions and they seemed more than able for anything I put through them, even some loads I'm not real proud of today. Older age has finally mellowed me out a bit and I look back at those times as a fun event in my life, but I myself will pass on future developements like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

There are definate advantages to some AI rounds, but I myself actually believe the hype some attain, not all though, are a bit of overworked imagination. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

THAT'S the information I was fishing for! I was just too ignorant to know the right question. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks.

I've found that the .222 isn't real consistant over a crony <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but the holes in the paper tell a diferent story.

Anyway, my .222 is showing signs that it's barrel is going belly up. And... I have this pretty blue and white swirly McMillan stock sitting around with nothing in it... So I'm thinking while I have expert advice avaliable I might as well twist one up.

I just got in from overworking my imagination via KS SUCKS based 25-06AI. Hadn't granted it any range time,since poking alloy Talley's and a "lowly" 6x42 leupie upon it.

That "overworked" sumbitch done as it usually does and profoundly influenced yet another pard,which will cause Redding share holders to rejoice(grin). The clusters printed would be scoffed by naysayers,so I won't bother,despite multi members of this Forum demonstrating likewise with the very rifle.

I tend to put much store in my personal findings and would rate more than a few Ackley offerings as SINISTER(dat's a good thing).................

Is any one here using a 30-30 AI ? Don't the ballistics come close to that of the 35 Remingtin ? It sure seems like you could load partitions or something of the sort and turn the old carbine into a heck of a two shooter.

Steve--

Congrats on the marriage milestone! Gonna celebrate by planning another hunting trip?

Now I get to log on with the other side of the Ackley question.
I have fooled around with several, and have quit. Here's why:

1) Despite seeing some increase on the chronograph, it was never significantly more than about 100 fps with the same barrel length. This revolves around the 1-4 rule, and turned out to be undetectable in the field, in either trajectory or killing power.

This relates to something else I have noticed over the years. In general, if a cartridge/bullet combination provides enough penetration for the game hunted, then I have a hard time telling any difference in how well it kills. In other words, I have never been able to tell the difference in killing power between a .30-06 and various .300 magnums, and I have hunted with a bunch of them.

I know this is contrary to what a lot og gun articles claim, wherein the .280 (for instance) is supposed to be noticeably better than the .270 because of some fractional differences in bore diameter or bullet weight. But none of the big game animals I've shot with either cartridge seemed to be able to tell what i shot 'em with.

Trajectory is a little different sory. Even the smallest .300's gain at least 200 fps over the .30-06, and some gain 400 fps. That starts to flatten things, especially out around 400 yards. But 100 fps (optimistic in most AI rounds) just doesn't do much.

2) I almost had a .223 AI built, because then I wouldn't have trim several hundred rounds of prairie dog brass, but then started to load my regular .223 with Redding match dies with the bushing neck-sized. I don't ever have to trim those either!

Choose a relatively steep-necked case in the first place, neck-size it carefully, and keep pressures sane, and you won't have to trim it either.

In big game rounds, it doesn't bother me to trim 40 cases once in a while.

3) Properly chambered AI rifles usually do shoot factory (or pre-fireform handloads) very well. Non-AI chambers also do this, if the rifle is of equal quality.

4) The original AI's were mostly developed before there was a cartridge to close any "gap" in the lineup. Nowadays we have a whole pile of new cartridges that fit almost any perceivable velocity gap. For instance, why build a .280 AI when we have the 7mm short mags? The 7mm SAUM's case capacity is just about identical to the .280, the 7mm WSM's just a little more. You don't have to fireform 'em, and they work just swell in a short action--especially a push-feed. Why bother with the AI?

The same goes for almost any other cartridge. The .250 Savage AI is just a slightly shorter version of the .257 Roberts, buit generally doesn't feed as well the .257. Both work very well in short actions. In long action .25's, why bother with the .25-06 AI when the .257 Weatherby is so user friendly, and with a lot more zip?

One real good AI round is the .300 H&H. Since the 1940's it's been known as the .300 Weatherby.

5) Fire-forming cases at first was fun. Shoot a regular and wham! Neat new round! But for me it got old pretty quickly. It's least painful with a prairie dog round, where you can shoot several hundred in a couple days. In a big game rifle, why bother? Just choose a hotter cartridge in the first place--if you feel the need.

If it all appeals to you, go right ahead. Shooting is supposed to be fun and games. Personally, I get more fun out of fooling with really weird cartridges, like the 9.3x74R or the .405 Winchester, or finding out how to maximize an older round like the .22 Hornet.

Put the Hornet in a 26" single-shot barrel, and seat a plastic-tip 40 well out, over the best of today's powders, and you can get well over 3000 fps--and have a very different cartridge. K-Horneting the average bolt gun doesn't make near as much difference.

But to each his own. Have fun, everyone!

MD

STetson, I can easily push speers 150 gr flatpoint to a little over 2600 fps in my 30-30 ai, using 748 powder. I have been messing with some 170 gr bulletts and h414 and so far 2400 fps is doable.
The trick to getting the most from the 30-30 ai is to use slower powders than in the regular 30-30, the change in case shape changes the burn characteristics just a tad it seems to me.
Mule Deer has a good point on the cons of the Ackleys, but it still fun to use them. As someone else pointed out earlier its sort of comforting to use something that you can't buy at WAlmart.

Mule Deer makes a fine point in several areas. I have never been one to follow the pack for my home gun. When I travel that's another story. What fun would it be if we couldn't ponder projects like a Ruger #1 S chambered in a 308 x 1.5 Barnes ? On the other hand it doesn't make a lot of financial sense to tweak a 30-30 when you can just pick up a 35 remington. I was thinking there are a lot more bullet choices in the 30 cal so a two shot lever gun might be fun. I am always trying to find that perfect lever gun that gives a good group at 150 yards with out being brutal on the recoil. For me that excludes the 444 and the 45-70. The 30-30 is about as anemic as it gets to me although it's hard not to appreciate the history of that old gal. At home the more exotic the better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As to the supposed benfits of AI cartridges I don't buy DogZappers comments at all except his enthusiasm for it. If it get's gets you excited and makes you get up early in the morning then get one or more.



I have had "improved" cartridges since the early 1960's so how can I tell someone that they can't have them! MuleDeer has the practical take on it however.



I do take exception to MD's comment that the .300 Improved is a good idea. My experiance is from a .375 Improved as chambered by Douglas. There is no support for the shoulder on this case and it suffers head separations. If it had been chambered so as to headspace on the shoulder of the .375 H&H then it would be fine.



The 300 Weatherby is another story as the cases are formed at least somewhere near the shoulder. It's not that good a design as a rimless case however.



The K Hornet has an application as many Hornet chambers have sloppy headspace and it allows a smith to correct that.



I also agree with MD's comments on the killing power of bullets with the exception that around .35 caliber there seems to be an improvement over the smaller bores.

MD,

Thanks for the counterpoint.

Since I'm easily able to defer the decision (especially since the factory rifle that may or may not get modified isn't even here yet), I need some standard .223 dies to tide me over.

Sounds like the Redding bushing-type dies are the way to go. I'm thinking I'll get the FL bushing dies, to have the flexibility of partial sizing or bumping the shoulder back when needed -- does that make sense?

John

Savage 99--

All good points on your partm, though I'd like to make a couple more comments.

Actually I didn't quite say the .300 H&H AI (or Weatherby) was a good idea. By calling it "good" I meant that it was one of the AI cartridges that gained something over the original.

This gain isn't as much as most folks believe, however, as .300 H&H factory ammo is somewhat underloaded and .300 Weatherby factories are pretty hot. When loaded to the same pressures, the Wby. gains about 120 fps over the H&H case.

I have owned a couple of .300 Weatherbys but eventually got tired of fighting the freebore. One wildcat solution to this is the .300 Jarrett, which uses the 8mm Remington Mag case necked down. My personal solution, however, was the .300 Winchester Magnum in a 25" barrel, as per Charlie Sisk, which comes so close to the .300 Weatherby that it doesn't matter. (I also have a custom barreled Model 70 in .300 H&H and a Kimber 8400 in .300 WSM. Both will do anything I want a .300 magnum for, since both will push a 180 to 3000.)

I agree that something happens in the middle-.30's area with killing power. I like the 9.3mm and .375 bores a lot, mostly because of heavier bullets generally available than in .35. But the animals generally have to REALLY big for me to make the jump from the .270/7mm/.30 calibers, which have proven adequate for about any non-dangerous game on earth.

The only .375 "Improved" I ever fooled around with was my very first fire-forming experience, turning a .375 H&H case into a .375 Wby. It worked fine in that particular rifle, which was made by Dave Gentry, but might not in others. It gained about 100 fps over the .375 H&H, which I have stuck to ever since.

MD

John Frazer,

When I get a new cartridge I am now ordering the Lee Collet die set along with a Redding "S" type FL die. After loading some rounds measure the neck diameter per the instructions and order a bushing.

The FL "S" die comes with an expanding button and another decaping pin holder that is smaller than the neck ID and has no expanding button. The idea of all this is to work the necks as little as possible and it avoids lubricating the insides of the necks as well.

If one orders a standard die set then there are some good brands with RCBS being the best for my use. The Redding FL dies are good but they have no bleed hole like the RCBS does and they will dent shoulders faster.

As to seating dies I have some bench rest type ones but the standard dies seem to do just as well for me as long as everything else is right. On of those just rights is to chamfer the inside of a neck at a very gradual angle. I use an industrial 15 degree tool and Lyman makes a 22 degree one. I read that Sinclair sells one that's adjustable. I feel there is less runout and more consistancy when the bullet seats with a soft feel.