Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ackley pros and cons

Now that I have a .223 sporter on the way, and chatted a while with a guy at the range Sunday about his Dakota lightweight .280 AI, I am becoming curious about these "improvements."

I'm trying to think of all the advantages and disadvantages of having one -- perhaps if my new factory barrel won't shoot, or if I shoot it out.

Pros:

A bit higher velocity.
Longer case life.
Less case trimming.
Weird/unusual/esoteric.


Cons:

Fire forming
More expensive dies
Need to anneal cases?
Weird/unusual/esoteric. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What am I missing? So far I don't see any pluses or minuses that would actually make up my mind for me, but since I know there are many "AI" fans as well as some skeptics on this board, I am very interested to hear what people have to say.

From what I have read I don't know if anealing is necessary.

I also have heard it said that AI-ing a round is really only worth it on a few calibers but almost all of them have had it done.

The ones I hear being the best to AI are the 7x57 and 257 roberts. Those are the two I have heard really seem to respond to AI and are worth doing. I am sure there are more but I am not aware of them (that is pure ignorance not a comment on the value of AI).

As you are talking the 223 i am sure Stick is gonna come in and help out and i am gonna bet he is gonna say DO IT as the 223AI is a pet favorite of his.

I would shoot the crap out of it and when the throat starts to go set it back and punch her out to AI - lots of use outta that factory tube. YMMV...

Doing an AI conversion will not appreciably resovle a worn throat since only a reaming of the chamber and very slight setback of the barrel occurs.

JMO, one of the merits of the AI wildcat approach is more practical than other alternatives. If properly executed you get to shoot factory ammo with little loss of performance, and fireform brass in the process. I am unaware of any that require annealing to form, see the previous sentence. Whether or not you join in wildcat endeavor is a personal choice. To a large degree you will find that there are commercial cartridges that deliver similar performance so the benefits are not always that great, particularly with case designs that leave small latitude for enhancing case capacity, such as the .308 Win. Where the rewards seem to grow however is the world of varmint hunting. There are no commercial cartridges out there that will drive .224 and 6mm bullets to 4400 fps or faster, so if speed is your game have at it.

Another aspect of this is that when Ackley developed the myriad of his improved 'cats he did not have the array of powders that we have today, especially in regards to slow burners, and subsequently was not terribly impressed with some of his creations, several of which are relatively popular today such as the .243/6mm AI. the 6mm-06 is probably another one, and based on performance reported by users today it is a fine round.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ackleying a cartridge is a polarizing subject. The very experienced Mule Deer recently wrote an article on the "Bob" in which he mentioned that he did not think too much of the AI version. Yet, the equally experienced Dogzapper, thinks that the 280 AI is the greatest thing going.

When you boil it down, it seems that the often quoted 4-1 rule (increase powder capacity by 4%......gain 1% in velocity) is pretty much inviolate. Most AI's increase case capacity by 8% - 12% so you can do the math. There are some who might report greater increases, but it's a fair bet that they are loading to higher pressures in order to get there. (remember how unreliable "normal" pressure signs really are)

I have done an '06 AI but don't think I'd bother to do it again. The one exception is on a varmint rifle where I might shoot it a lot. Then the case life and less trimming makes a lot of sense. If one is just seeking a tad more velocity, there are easier ways to get there.

JimF

fwiw,
According to Gordy Gritters and Darrell Holland the .223 AI does not feed as well as the standard case. Not leading to feed jams so much but requiring that you "jiggle" the bolt a bit until the case slips into the chamber. It's not a big deal, however, it's one of the small reasons I'm sticking to the .223 in factory form... fwiw & ymmv.

Regards, Matt.

To clarify my question on annealing -- doesn't the added case life and reduced trimming, come at the price of work-hardening the neck like any other case, thus requiring annealing to get the maximum use out of the cases you had to fireform?

I guess what I'm pondering is the tradeoff -- is the added case life worth the other hassles, when new cases for most standard cartridges cost maybe 30-35 cents apiece? (And in some cartridges like .223, the 30 cents also gets you a primer, some powder and a bullet.)

John

Another take on the so called improved cartridges is that it's good clean fun. So maybe everyone who wants one should try one.

In general they are no improvement at all in any way but if the chambering is done right so that factory rounds can be fired with the headspace set right then the rifle is not going to be as big a hassle as a true wildcat.

The improved cartridges based on rimless cases work well in this regard and those on rimmed or belted cases don't due to the fact that they suffer head separations.

So if you don't have one and have a couple of hundred bucks to spare for entertainment then get one.

If you have to ask then AI'ing is probably not for you. I do it because I can and I don't sweat the small stuff. It's fun and that is what I'm looking for in a hobby. I'm not looking for big performance gains. Just looking to do something different after owning just about everything else. To me AI'd cases look way cool and that adds to the "customness" of my custom rifles. For me that is what it's about but your mileage may vary, and that's fine with me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

X-VERMINATOR

Doing the Ackley in 30-30 gives that cartridge a big boost, makes it more in line with the 300 savage. If the rechambering is done correctly then factory cartridges can be fired with no ill effects. I've yet to have a seperated case in the 30-30ai and some cases have been fired over a dozen times. The ai case don't stretch as much as the regular 30-30 cases do.
There are some cartidges that will give definte improvement in ballistics and some that won't. But they are fun to mess with.

My take on it is that some cartridges are greatly helped by the Ackley treatment and others are not. Having played with literally all of them, my opinion is that the best are the .223 Ackley, the .22-250 Ackley, the .250 Savage Ackley, the 6.5-'06 Ackley and the .280 Ackley.

As Ranch13 pointed out, the .30-30 Ackley is a fantastic cartridge. Actually, it also is a special case because the Improved case configuration lessens the bolt thrust on weak lever actions and adds to performance at the same time.

Over the years, I've owned, shot and killed with the .243 Win Ackley, the .260 Ackley and the 7-'08 Ackley. I still own the .260 Ackley and the 7-'08 Ackley and consider them meaningful cartridges. Basically, the .260 Ackley gives 6.5-'06 performance and the 7-08 Ackley gives the power of the standard .280 Remington, all in a short action.

My impression is that over-bore cartridges display less performance enhancement when given the Ackley tretment than somewhat smaller, less intense rounds. For instance, the increase in the .250 Ackley is impressive, while the .25-'06 Ackley shows only minimal gains over the parent cartridge.

I shoot an incredible amount of .223 rounds every year and I tend to wear out actions. The Ackley case configuration greatly lessens bolt thrust and I find that actions shot with barrels chambered for .223 Ackley tend to last a long, long time (actually I haven't worn out a Rem 700 with the .223 Ackley yet!!).

Case stretching? Cases just need minimal trimming every 7-10 rounds, where it is every 2-3 with standard cases. Being a lazy fella, I like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I fireform .223 Ackleys in the field. Accuracy is first-rate and the rifle kills just as well as the standard .223 (which is a really wonderful cartridge, anyway.)

For big game Ackleys; I have several barrels for my "fireform rifle" and it is easy to machine-gun fireform rounds at the range. I do not have barrels for a couple of my big game Ackley rifles, so I fireform slow and easy, so the barrel is not harmed.

No, annealing is not needed. New brass is a must because cases previously fired in a standard chamber is apparently work-hardened to the extent that it will not fireform properly to the Ackley configuration.

In the case of the .223. I have never had a single problem feeding .223 Ackley cases and my three rifles have an experimental absolute-minimum case taper. I've heard of the problem, particularly on Winchester M-70s (I hate M-70s), but I have never seen it with any of my Remington 700s. Actually, one of my Remington 700s that tended to feed poorly actually improved when barreled to the .223 Ackley. Go figger.

Fine gunsmiths, like Gordy Gritters (who is about as good as gunsmiths get), pay special attention to the feed ramp when working with Ackley chamber jobs. Gordy also polishes the chamber a bit more on Ackleys, so the cases fireform better.

More later, if there is an interest.

Best to all, Steve

The interest is ther - please feel free to drop a complete book in one post!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I knew the 280 AI was popular with the beanfield deer hunting crowd but the 7mm-08AI interrests me - what can you say more about it?

Thank you!

Count one more vote with Teals for more ackley info.

You would do yourself well to pick up a copy of P.O. Ackley's HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS. There are 2 volumes, Vol 1 deals mostly with the more common cartridges that have been improved and Vol 2 covers all the rest. Both have great articles about reloading, hunting and much more. He comes out and not only picks favorites but also tells you if the cartridge isn't worth improving. The loading data is a bit dated as these were first published in the 60's but at least you have insight straight from the horses mouth. Before the internet these were some of the best sources of loading data for his imporved cartridges.

DZ,

Thanks for the great rundown. I keep returning to the issue of brass life. In a cartridge such as .223 I'm not sure how much weight to give that issue in general, but will ask anyway -- how many loadings do you usually get out of an "improved" case?

I've also never shot any rifle case enough to start splitting necks, but from reading (e.g. John B's "Factors in Accuracy" piece on this site) have been under the impression that after several firings, work hardening will cause erratic bullet release, with annealing as the cure.

But, I expect the overwork would be reduced by firing in tight custom chambers and use of bushing-type dies, especially if you mostly neck-size -- am I getting that right?

Also, I have read Ackley's book, and while interesting I found it dwelled more on extreme increases in velocity, than in what may be more "real world" benefits. Would appreciate citations to any other writings in the area!

John

Actually the Ackley Improvement does not change the case head thrust at all. The portion of the chamber
that is modified holds the brass under pressure. It is furthue back that the brass will stretch and press
against the breech. Berore you scream do the trig calculations and see what difference in friction could be
possible. Ackley fired a 30/30 AI in an unlocked mod 94. A standard cartridge would have acted the same
in a dry chamber.
Good luck!

John,

Frankly, I've never lost an Ackley case from overworking. Occasionally, I get crazy with pressure and expand a bunch of primer pockets, but I've never worn them out.

I have a "lucky" box of .280 Ackley cases that have been fired something over 20 times; they still shoot exceptionally and are killers. They look kinda scruffy, but they have been my killer cases on many hunts.

Yes, literally all of my chambers are custom and obviously are minimum. Neck expansion not to exceed .003" does wonders for neck life. Also, bushing dies help case life because the necks are worked only as much as they need to be.

Karen and I are celebrating our 40th Anniversary today, so I may not be on the 24Hour Forum a lot today.

Best, Steve

Congrats on the anniversary, DZ. Forty years of marriage - that's awesome!

CONGRATS- now do something nice for yourself - buy another rifle!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Congratulation, 40 years - I'm admiring your wife

RD

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY 40 YEARS IS QUITE A MILESTONE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

HBB