Okay experts/writers.....I think I have worn out the search function on this site, and figure I may as well post the question. I am putting together a BP hunting rifle in 308 Win. I have been searching components with elk as the targeted game. The 150/165 Partition, 150 TTSX, 150 E-tip, and Hornady 165 BTSP are being considered.

All things considered, if you were an Eastern hunter who only gets to make one trip West for big game each year, what ONE bullet would you trust most for shots out to 300 yds at 308 Win velocities?

165 Accubond or 168 TTSX would be my frontrunners.

You might PM Brad. He's killed some elk with the .308.

I shot a cow elk with a 308 Win using 180 Nosler Solid Base at 297 yards. It went thru an onside rib, thru the vitals, smashed the off side front leg bone and stopped under the offside skin with 100 grains left in one piece.
Since those bullets are no longer made, I would suggest 180 NP or 180 AB.
My son used a 165NP successfully in a 308 on a cow elk also.
No reason not to use any of these on a bull or cow, but I have only shot bulls with 270 Win or 284 Win with 150 and 160 grainers.

I use 150s here in MI.
jmho
Tim

165 Partition

150gr E Tip

165 Horn or the 165 Sierra HPBT along with Varget

Dober

I'd roll with the 165gr Partition...

Thanks for the quick answers thus far. The Partition is supposed to never be the wrong answer, and where I was leaning.

I like the TTSX concept but am am not super comfortable at 308 speeds. I emailed Barnes the they said the 150 TTSX would open up down to 1600 fps....I am a little skeptical.

That 165 BTSP Horn sure seems to be popular...I almost wish it cost more to feel like I am paying "enough".

I'd love to hear further opinions.

I settled on the 165 BTSP in my '06, & likely would in a .308, too, providing it shot well. It just seems to do all that it ought to, reliably, predictably, yadda yadda yadda. Sort of the "Correctol" of sub-magnum velocity .30' cal bullets.

However, I'm intrigued about the accounts of the 130 TSX in .30 cal. Maybe some .308 guys can chime-in on that one .

FC

My first choice wouild be the 180 gr. Nosler Partition. At 2500-2600 fps. out of a .308, it should open quite well out to 300 yds. or more. That's because the similar 7mm 160 gr. versions have for me at similar velocities.
My second choice would be the same bullet in the 165 gr. weight.
In factory loaded ammo, I'd go for the Federal Throphy Bonded Tipped ammo. E

Took this bull last fall at a skosh over 400 yds with the 165 Horn out of my Mom's 06



Dober

I am facing the same question and problem. I have killed 7 elk with a 270/150 partition, so for my 308 I am leaning torward a 165 gr partition to get the best combo of speed and penetration out ot 300 yards.

The beauty of the .308 is you aren't dealing with warp speed velocities, so I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a 165-168 gr bullet that wouldn't be flawless in the .308.

+1 and followed by a 165 Horn BTSP or a 165 Sierra HPBT.

The truth is that most any 165 -168 gr bullet will do.

I would pick the bullet that was the most accurate in my rifle.

The 168 NBT would be another good one

Dober

I've never used Black Powder in the 308. What's yer charge?

Chucklin'

Pete

Say what?

Dober

Just funnin'. The OP said he was putting together a BP hunting rifle.......

I knew what he meant, but it never ceases to amaze how easily we fall into "textspeak".

Pete

Gotcha, thought I was being my normal slow self..grin

Dober

I'd probably start with the 165/8 TTSX, and if shot well enough, stop there. If not I would move on to the 165 Partition and see if it shot. Then I would go to an accubond, probably.

Some people might be surprised that my top choices are the TTSX and the Partition, since they have very different performance profiles, particularly in terms of weight retention. But I have confidence in both, and that is what matters to me.

I have used the 165 Partition w/ 308 win on elk and would do so again, or AB or Horn BTSP (just picked up a bunch actually).

All good answers here though - see what shoots well in your gun.

Been playing around with the 30 150GR NBT.Shoots good. If I can a find a good buck this fall will try them on game.

Out of a 308 any weight of Nosler Partition out to 350 - 400 yards placed in the heart and lungs will kill an elk. If bullet weight is adequate then your left with placing the bullet into the kill zone.

I hate you!!!!!

take a number and get in line Huntz...grin

Dober

That was just mean.

I don't know what is better the big grin(s) or rack(s).

I'm just a rookie on the pond when it comes to killin elk, now Brad, Greenie and Scenar are the elk killing machines! Hmm, all boyz from Montana who would of thunk that..grin

Dober

My experience working up loads for three different 308s has been that I could get nearly the same velocity with a 180 as I could with a 165. The energy with the 180 therefore was higher and my choice for elk.
Guns refereded to -- Ruger 77RL, Rem 788 and custom Mauser. Barrels 20"-22"
jmho
Tim

Dang ,if I would ever kill one like that, I could die a happy man!!!!Congrats.

My pet load for .308 uses the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core and W-760 powder, not the most likely combo out there but my Ruger M77 RSI is a one trick pony. It's the only load the gun likes.
You cam PM or E-mail for details as it's a bit over max in most rifles. The load only does 2550 FPS from the 18.5" barrel and the bullet hit a deer in the chest as it faced me and the bullet passed through the deer and I'm thinking would have exited had a back leg bone not got in the way. That same load in a 22" barreled rifle does 2610 FPS, no barn burner but the load kills der dead. If I had to hunt elk with my .308, I most likely would use that load and never look back.
Paul B.

The elk load for my Kimber Montana in 308 Win uses the 150 grain Hordaddy GMX and Re 15. It works great on elk.

I just loaded up a few 150 grain TSX and TTSX to try at the range.

I tried the 130 GMX in my 270 Win and it 'sprayed' groups. It was one long bullet. I'd be interested in your TTSX/TSX results from when you get to the range. The Barnes sure shoot well in my 223 and 270 but I'm pushing them at ~3200 fps which should help ensure expansion.

I'd still like to hear what JB and others think, but understand that they may not be able to 'endorse' one bullet in their line of work. dogzapper spoke very highly of the Horn 165 and 150; I imagine at this velocity window I may be over analyzing things.

I suggest (and have used) the 165 gr. Nosler Partitian. Worked well and did the job.

In the late 1960's, I used a 180 gr. factory load in a 30-06 and it worked well also.

I won't call the the results from one rifle/load combination and its use in taking one bull elk as being conclusive and meaningful evidence, but perhaps it is a starting point. After trying many .30 caliber bullets in the 150-180 grain range, I found the 168 grain Barnes TSX BT with a maximum charge of H4895 (muzzle velocity=2,700) to be the most consistently accurate so far in a New Ultra Light Arms .308. Without referring to range notes, it seems there were two or three other bullets that were close contenders. At slightly over three hundred yards, the Barnes performed humanely well, entering the vital area just behind a shoulder and breaking the opposite shoulder on exit.

Making a good shot sure does help That sounds like good performance. As primarily a bow hunter for deer, I habitually aim for the shot you described - aim for the off side shoulder exit about 1/2 way up. This pretty much guarantees heart/lung and running gear damage.

Which particular Hornaday 165gr BTSP are you guys referring to? I looked at Midway's listings and there are several different variations.

I haven't had a 308 in awhile but recently picked up a beauty of a Rem 760 Gamemaster and I want to build a kind of 'do-everything' load for it.

djb,

300yds is a chip shot for a 308 as long as it's placed well.
Of the bullets you listed any of them will work just fine for your intended use.

I'd just let your rifle tell you which was the most accurate in it and go hunting without a second thought.

Good luck,
Ted

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.308-165-gr-BTSP/

It is a great all arounder for the 30cals IME - especially in 308win.

Dogzapper says the 150 Hornady Interlock in .308 caliber is the fastest killing bullet for him even above the 165 on Elk.. That's a pretty good recommendation.

Oly Wa: I see the link to Hornady and I'm not trying to be a SMART A...

If you look close at the Midway site, there is ONLY ONE Hornady 30 cal. 165 Spire Point Boat Tail.

1. WE often say BTSP but Midway lists it SPBT
2. There are other Hornady's that are boat tails and POINTED but are NOT spire point boat tail.

Not having shot an elk with the combo.... so I can't say for sure but I've sure seen X bullets expand at speeds slower than advertised.... So I"m still sold on them.

150 or 168 tsx or if you are afraid of non expansion, ttsx. My choice of course is 168 since I've driven many thousands of them in BTHP bullets out of the 308 and would pick my shot and have zero qualms with a 300 yard shot for sure.

Partitions have let me down on Nilgai in the past. Dead nilgai, but not the performance I was looking for.

If you are a speed nut and a bang flop nut, I'd look hard at the 130 version in ttsx, if you were to shoot a 165 partition, you'll probably not retain more than 130 anyway and the barnes usually retains 100% or close to it unless they loose a petal but thats not all that common IMHO.

Not to offend anybody on this Hornady issue,but as I have shot and used both on game the 165 gr SPBT and the 165 gr. SP. IMHO the 165 gr SP Interlock holds together much better than the BT version. I've only used them on Whitetail and Mule deer at 30-06 and 300 Win Mag velocities. Magnum man

For me, the "One 308 Win Bullet" involves a 165/68 of some sort.

Whatever shoots best in your rifle is the one I'd go with.

Standouts to me are the 165 Partition, 165 Accubond, 165/68 Ballistic Tip, 165 Speer Hotcore, 165 Sierra Pro Hunter, 165 Hornaday. Roughly in that order.

Good news is the 308 is pretty easy on bullets and I really don't think there are any bad ones at 2,750 fps.

Dober,

I don't "hate you" but posting pictures with big bags full of meat, hands full of antlers, and a big smile on your face, all on a little ridge in really pretty country, do make me a tad jealous. And using your "mom's 06" might be the best part. Congratulations on your continued success. I would offer to be your new best friend and hunting buddy, but anything I have to contribute to the relationship pales by comparison.

Thanks again everyone.

Brad, glad you chimed in. Have you recovered an Accubond in game? I have recovered just one; a 9.3 250 that retained about 70% of its weight. I understand it is basically just a bonded Ballistic Tip. What is the major difference between the two that you have experienced in performance on "meat" in the .308.

I think we all want something different when selecting a bullet. Some want speed, some penetration..accuracy...high BC...weight retention....expansion.... all the above Really I just want the damn thing to be consistently lethal.

djb, this year I shot four animals with the 308/165 NAB... ranges were 179 for a cow elk, 300 for a 5pt bull, 401 for an antelope and 200 for a mule deer buck.

Only recovered one bullet, and that was a finisher on the bull elk I stuck in his brisket as he lay dying... that one entered his sternum and was lodged against his spine. Shot was from 15'... bullet held together nicely I'd say



I would have used the 168 NBT last year (my rifle really likes them) but I couldn't locate any after my supply got shot up, so I went with the 165 NAB. Doesn't shoot as well in my rifle, but is good enough for out to 550 yards, or so I've found.

I don't think you can go wrong with the Ballsitic Tip and to me the 165/68 weight in the 308 is a great compromise between weight, speed, BC and a host of other ballistic gack

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.

A 165 Accubond/Ballistic tip combo would make a convenient pairing. They should shoot very similar (if not identical) for hunting vs practice loads.

There are just too many stories about the TTSX/TSX problems that make me hesitant. Velocity seems to really help the mono 'work'. The Partition on the other hand just always seems like the safe bet. It's kind of the Swiss Army knife of the bullet world....not the best at any task but functional for everything.

I like that.

If my 308 liked 165 NP's that would have been my first choice. Unfortunately, it doesn't group them well.

Brad what is the difference between the 165 NBT and the 168 NBT besides 3 grs? Are they configured different? Much difference in the BC? Magnum Man

A bonded or monolithic bullet in 150-200 grains range. My choice this autumn will be Norma Oryx 200 grains (hunting moose and bear).

Apparently it's the shape of the ogive... BC isn't that different.

My rifle far and away prefers the 168 NBT to the 165 version. Go figure.

For elk with a 308 Winchester I would go with a Swift 165gr A-Frame.

I'd say 165-gr. in a bonded bullet or the Partition, and 150-gr. in a monometal. As others have said, it'd be hard to make a bad bullet choice, given 308 velocities.

All that being said, the no-longer-available 180 NPT Federal High Energy load (advertized @ 2740 fps) has been the cat's a$$ for me on a number of elk and moose. I still have four boxes and save them for elks and mooses, using more mundane stuff on deer.

This is the only recommendation for the Swift A-frame I have found in this thread so far. Why is that? Don't many guys like them or use them? I suppose the mediocre BC might have something to do with that. I often wonder why Swift doesn't put a big hollow cavity in the front of the A-frame and fill it with a plastic tip. The tip would increase BC and the hollow cavity would tend to make it expand at lower velocity, and it seems that plastic tips help sell bullets these days.

I've found the Swift-A-Frames are harder to get to shoot well than either the Barnes TSX, or the Nosler Partition. They also have a tendency to make a wider wound channel rather than a deeper, narrower one. That, their price, and their less than great BC tends to limit my selection of them.
Like others have said. At .308 velocities alot of bullets will work well. E

150gr TTSX at 2900fps...

My recommendation, 165gr.Nos.Partition. Hunt hard, shoot straight, eat elk steak, be happy.

Jordan, can you share first hand results on game with this combo?

Unfortunately I can't. I've been limited to the 130gr TTSX and 150gr TSX, but no 150gr TTSX out of the .308 on game thus far. The 130gr TTSX and 150 TSX have been stellar, with the little 130 penetrating over 3' of deer and exiting, leaving immediate and immense damage upon entry. I would just feel a bit more comfortable stepping up to the 150gr if elk were the primary quarry, and I'd use the TTSX over the TSX if given the choice (why not?)...

That is nearly exactly what I was going to write. Some time back I settled on the 165-168 gr. for hunting everything with my .308.

Redhead: You would think they don't do all that well at distance because of the profile.....and for sure they are not dedicated LR bullet that some others are today.

But I have shot the 130 gr Aframe in the 270 at 3100 fps; it's trajectory to 400 yards is the same as a 130 Nosler Partition;and ditto 165's from any 30 cal cartridge.They are in fact a lot like Bitterroots, with which I've killed out to 400 yards or so on several occaissions,and shot side by side with Partitions as well.

I think you are right though....Aframes are a great bullet but guys like plastic tips.

Frankly, I see a lot of obsessing over high BC but you start a thread on here asking about shot distances,and you'll search high and low for shots on game at an honest 300 yards,and almost none will show up routinely past that distance.Out that far, there is no handicap to an Aframe.

24" barrel?

BobNH - I'm very glad you gave us this info. I've wondered about
some of these things and haven't seen them discussed.

Now I'm one that isn't interested in plastic tips. I'm not convinced that they have the balance right between BC & proper expansion. There seems to be MORE expansion than penetration.

I, for one, am glad to know the A Frames trajectory is very similar to N Ps. That gives me a viable alternative. Thanks again.

Here's a 150 TTSX I pulled from a cow elk launched by a 308 Win:

Brad - How did the wound channel look? This seems to me a perfect example of no expansion, ultra penetration.

I guess I'm old fashioned, I know I'm old, I like BOTH, controlled exp. & penetration.

I'm hearing & understanding using lighter for caliber at higher velocities, IF tissue destruction is sufficient.

Thanks for the pic.

I'm a TSX guy and have never shot an elk. I have shot a lot of other stuff, some pretty tough, with 165grn BT's at 2750 and can't imagine it not performing perfectly, unless ubber-close.

Kimber MT 308 Win 1/12 twist.

MV, 2850-ish

Shot was 200-ish yards (IIRC around 230 yards).

Shot was down hill. Nothing was hit on the way. Bullet apparently hit the shoulder and immediately tumbled (ala FMJ) after not opening... wound channel showed it indeed swapped ends, and was found facing backwards on the off side.

A finisher in the neck dropped the elk.

I've used the X/TSX/TTSX/Failsafe successfully, but have also seen enough failures exactly like the above that make me a bit suspect of the expanding monolithic (X) type bullets, especially if not launched at warp speed. I've pretty well quit them.

Obviously death will be the end of a bullet punching the vitals, even one that didn't expand, but I don't pay $35 per 50 for something that looks like the above. But that's just me.

At the end of the day, I'm a Partition guy

10/4- - -That's the way I see it too !

THANKS

I ain't no expert or a writer but I like Nosler partitions. Partitions are also the only thing that I've killed elk with(or shot at them with). Farthest was a 4-point bull at approx. 325yds; it exited. Bull dropped at the shot.

My rifle( Win. 70, 30.06)shoots 165gr Partitions and 165gr Accubonds into itty-bitty groups at 2,870fps. My experience so far with Accubonds has only been on deer(both whitetail and muleys) but of those experiences a 160gr Accubond out of a 7mm Rem Mag penetrated 40+ inches of mule deer hitting bone going in and coming out(sharp quartering toward shot, shoulder to opposite ham). Obviously, no bullet recovered. That to me is a testament to the toughness of the accubond.

Either of those in 165gr would be my choice for elk if I were shooting a 308.

Good luck, Leftybolt

22"

Everybody is a product of their experiences. I've killed and seen killed up around 75+ head of big game with Barnes X/TSX/TTSX bullets by now, and I have yet to witness a failure. Hence my great faith in them.

I've only recovered a few bullets, and all have expanded perfectly. Most bullets exit the animal, so there is a chance that an unexpanded bullet or two exited without me knowing, but I couldn't tell by the terminal effects. About 85-90% of the game I've shot and seen shot with these bullets have gone down within a few feet. Then again, I typically shoot for the shoulder... The last animal I shot with a TTSX was a MD buck last fall that I hit through the lungs, behind the shoulder. No bone hit this time. He dropped at the shot, got up and stumbled 15 feet, and then crashed for good.

Curious to know your load...

It's an old load of N203. I can't remember the charge weight right now, but I'll dig it up and let you know.

Brad Im running the 150ttsx over 47gr of Varget in Federal match cases for about 2925fps. Been using that load for the last few years and have never had a problem in any weather. Seating to mag length at about 2.820"

Checking the Barnes site they are still loading a load of BlC2 getting 2980fps from a 24" barrel!!

2900ish seems reasonable. 46gn of Varget behind a 165 AB gets low to mid 2800s.

Thanks Jordan.

Various 22" 308's I've used over the years wouldn't get to 2,900 but I've seen enough 2,900/150 loads in various manuals that I've always assumed it's doable, I've just never gotten there comfortably.

Years ago I used WW748, then moved to RL15 and lately Varget. I've found Varget more temp stable than RL15.

I've got a can of the new Power Pro 2000MR and plan on giving it a try... have heard great things about it.

Wow. That exact load/bullet goes 2,740 in my rifle. Again, 22" bbl. Rifles are all individuals for sure...

VI, 24" bbl? That bullet at that speed will get most anything done for sure.

For me though, I don't think the 308 has enough juice to open that bullet properly past, say, 425-ish yards. But that's pretty far away for shooting game.

I have Barnes No.1... some of the data there is what I call spooky!

Here's the new Alliant 2000MR data for the 308... several 150 loads at 2,950, and one at 3,060 (all 24" bbl):

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=31&cartridge=80

Isn't Varget great! I've had nothing but excellent results with it in several calibers. Love the stuff!

Brad,

What can't you kill with that that should be hunted with a 308? Not to criticize, but a few dozen fps is not really an issue in the game fields, is it?

Never said or even implied that... just having a discussion about speed in various 308's. Harmless chatter, that's it... after all, that's what handloaders do... or so I thought.

I am cheating with a 26" barrel. It seems to run everything pretty quick! Not very fun to carry around the hills though. (I have a 22' barreled, 6lb 338 Fed for the hills)

That makes sense! 4" add's another 100 fps +/-

Wow, Brad interesting pic. I have been away a few days and the UPS guy just delivered 200 pieces of RP brass and some 150 Horn BTSP and �� 150 TTSX to start playing with yesterday. Damn!

I'm still and going to load them up and have some 'tests' in mind to see for myself. A read a decent article recently about 150's in the '06 and JB seems to like them too. BUT, a pic is worth 1000 words.

Looking at those cursed loading manuals the 30�06 and 308 really are pretty close with 150�s. It seems that heavier than 150 is where the �06 really starts to pull ahead. It�s hard to believe comparing the �06 case with that stubby little 308.

It is also interesting how much �bigger� a bullet the TTSX is compared to the BTSP Horn. I actually mic�d and weighed each bullet to make sure one of the boxes wasn�t labeled wrong.

Brad,

The load using N203 is a charge weight of 48gr. The average velocity is 2880fps - 2905fps, depending on which month you chrony the load

djb,

I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. I believe that Brad had a bad experience with that bullet in his pic, but every bullet has a bad day every now and then

I could dig up pics of failed Partitions, too, but you don't hear people worrying about whether or not the PT will work. TTSX failures, much like PT failures, are very rare from what I've seen and read.

Go ahead and use those 150TTSX bullets on targets/game/whatever, and I doubt you'll be disappointed...

My own choice is the 150 grain Barnes MRX with some expectation that it will punch above its weight and of course the ever fashionable plastic tip looks nice. This is actually based on a one load for anything with hair on it for the particular rifle. It's a complex design and may not do well in every rifle from what I hear but I don't know that everybody who says that has spent the money to try them extensively.

That said my preferred bullet when I'm setting out to harvest an elk is a .375 - 260 grain Accubond - doesn't have to punch above its weight. But half of that is romanticism.

Not one mention of my favorite...hmmm. More for me.....grin!

My advice is find one that shoots and make it go where it needs to go.

djb - Re. 06 & 308 loads for 150 grs AND LOADING MANUALS.

Don't you LOVE the picture they paint? How can a long 06 case NOT
exceed the SHORT 308 case SINCE the powder capacity is SO DIFF. w/the same cal. bore.

Part of the reason is the pressure limit that is put on the good ole 06. I can't dig in my records RIGHT NOW but I can ASSURE you that if you get the RIGHT powder and load it to = pressures of the 270, with a MODERN 06, you can leave the 308 BEHIND, even w/150 gr bullets.

I am aware of some newer powders improving the 308's vel. but the 06 has CONSIDERABLY more capacity for other powders. IIRC --IMR 4320 was one powder to start experimenting with, & don't forget IMR 4350 or H 4350.

I probably will make some MAD by this post, but I've had 308s & 06s and a chrono for yrs. FWIW an Oehler 33.

HAVE FUN experimenting...IT CAN BE DONE

Your post makes a lot of sense. I know my chrony is now an invaluable tool for loading.

Reexamining Brad's bullet it looks like it had to have been tumbling when it hit the elk. The way it is bent with the tip apparently ripped out from the side. It just looks to me like it may have caught some brush or grass before the animal. Brad did say that �nothing was hit on the way�, and I respect his opinions from reading his posts. Maybe the bullet just �failed�.

On the other hand I know I have missed a deer this year with my muzzleloader at about 60 yds that appeared to be a wide open shot. As the smoke cleared this doe just stood there looking around. I watched and waited for it to fall but it finally wagged its tail and trotted off. I looked everywhere for blood and the found where the bullet had harmlessly skidded into the dirt well behind the deer. I went back to my shooting position and carefully walked the 60 yds to where the deer was standing. Then I came upon the green wood of a cleanly severed grape vine no thicker than my pinky. This was about 10-15 yds from where the deer had been standing. I was both amazed at the deflection and happy that I didn�t wound the deer. I guess �stuff� just happens sometimes.

If the 150�s shoot well�. I have friends at the local meat shop. I have some ideas for bullet testing that involve real hide and bone.

I used a 22" barreled .30-06 for years and loaded 150 grain Hornady flat base spire points to 2,850 fps (.308 velocity). I killed over 20 mule deer bucks and 4 elk with this bullet. Perfect results every time and bang flops. I only recovered a couple of bullets. One went through the hams and 10 inches of back bone as the buck ran straight away from me at 50 yards. The bullet was a mess, but did the job. The other went 20 inches through a bulls sternum and was found against the stomach. Shot was about 25 yards...DRT.

My all time favorite is the 165 grain Nosler ballistic tip at 2,800 fps. I have killed about 15 deer, 5 elk and a moose with this bullet. I have only recovered two bullets. All others were pass through shots. The elk were from 75-400 yards. All are text book mushrooms. One was recovered from just under the skin of a rag horn bull I shot at 75 yards broad side. The bullet broke both shoulders and the bull was DRT.

I recovered another one against the stomach of a frontal shot on a spike bull at 80 yards. He jumped sideways and was DRT.

The broadside shot on big bull moose at 20 yards exited with a golf ball sized exit hole. All critters were dead right now, except the spike bull that lunged sideways and dropped. Flinch

Those are some nice Elk, Dober...but I'm afraid the 160 Horn out of your Mama's '06 may be overkill.

It didn't leave enough of that bull to feed a buzzard. You just barely had enough head and cape left to put him on the wall!

DJ

The loading manuals load the .308 to proper pressures max pressures. They also keep .30-06 loads down...way down in some manuals and factory loads. Some are so low that they make the .308 look superior in velocity. When loaded to equal pressures, the .30-06 will ALWAYS be 150+ fps above the .308.

I get asked a lot from guys buying new rifles what round they should buy, a .308 or .30-06. If they have NO intention of reloading, I recommend the .308.

Factory .30-06 factory ammo runs neck and neck with .308 factory ammo. I have chronographed a lot of factory ammo and have found this to be true. If they plan on hand loading, then I recommend the .30-06 over the .308. Both are more than enough for everything the world has to offer, other than cape buffalo and elephant. Flinch

What do you usually see for speeds out of the factory ammo for the two Flinch?

Last box of factory I clocked was Rem 150's for the 06 and they were a bit over 2900 if I recall right. And I did some clock work with the Fushions and it seems to me in the 06 they ran 2800 with the 165 and 2700 or so with the 180's.

Thx
Dober

Does no one shoot elk with 165 TBs out of a .308? I haven't, but they seem to ragdoll Tennessee whitetail every time, with exits that don't look nearly big as 150 Cup n Core make

150 gr E-tip or TTSX

Dober, older (6-15 years old) .30-06 ammo loaded by Remington and Winchester has normally been up to specs (150 grain bullets at 2,900ish fps). With all the lawyers giving ammo makers troubles and the high government regulations on propellant, the ammo makers have REALLY lowered the pressures and velocities of factory ammo. I have seen Federal loads in the 2,750-2,800 fps for 150 grain bullets in .30-06 (mirrors most loading manuals). I have found that Federal is the most conservative ammo maker on the market, especially in .30-06 and 7mm mag.

I have chronographed many Federal 160 grain 7mm mag factory loads that were 2,850 fps. in 26" barrels. That is HORRIBLE velocity. I have chronographed 140 grain 7mm mag loads that won't top 3,000 fps. in 26" barrels. I don't know why Federal is so scared to put powder in their ammo. People buy magnums in order to get more velocity. It is kind of a bait and switch.

On the flip side, I have some 20 year old Remington 140 grain ammo that cooks along at over 3,300 fps in 7mm mags with 26" barrels. I have even called Remington about it and they are VERY tight lipped about what the put in the hulls. It is a very LONG extruded powder.

I have found the Winchester, Remington and Federal loads in 150 grain .308 to hover right around 2850 fps. 165's hover around 2,750 fps, very close to factory .30-06 ammo.

So for a factory ammo shooter that shoot 150-165 grain bullets, the .308 and .30-06 run neck and neck. The .30-06 factory ammo pulls away once the 180's come into the mix. Not by much, but by a reasonable amount, in my experience. I'm sure there are exceptions and I haven't chronographed every load out there, but others have mirrored my experiences.

The old Federal High Energy 180 grain TBBC bullet in .30-06 was amazing stuff. In two factory 24" barrels, I averaged 2,940 fps. (same as Mule Deer has experienced). I shot it for a season in a 27.5" .30-06 and got an average of 3,040 fps. It was a hammer on critters. I don't know why they stopped loading it. It was fairly accurate and really crunched critters. Flinch

Did you get good accuracy with the HE stuff? I only shot it a bit, and it and the Horn HE whatever they called it never was a rock star when it came to accuracy. But, I didn't work with it much either..

Thx
Dober

In my custom rifle it would shoot just over an inch, so no, it wasn't super accurate. I think the new TTBC bullet made by Federal looks MUCH better. They look cleaner and more balanced, especially with the plastic tip.

The old TBBC bullets had a really blunt nose and the lead tip/jacket didn't look very concentric. For 300 yard shots and closer, it was good stuff. Beyond that, it dropped like a stone. Flinch

Flinch- Sorry I didn't notice your response to me yesterday, till now.

You & I have observed the same thing re 06/308 ammo.

I agree w/your recommend for non hand loaders toward the 308.

Re: answer to Dober @ factory ammo. Things have changed in past yrs.
Back when I chronod factory ammo more, a long time ago Federal was
much closer to adv. velocity.

Based on my past experience I'm SURPRISED to hear Rem is close to claimed vel.

I'm not arguing, just noticing new developments.

Excuse typing from my phone.

Edited from home p c.

I recently chrony'd 150 gr Rem Corelokts factory in my 308 tikka (20 in bbl) and velocity was 2730'ish. Out of my 19 inch bbl 7600 308 the same rounds were running 2630'ish. My 7600 30-06 18.5 inch bbl shoots rem 150 factories at 2650 fps. I was shocked to say the least. I use my chrono and factory loads to compare the velocities to my handloads.

A few notes on the recent posts:

When I first started loading in the mid-1960's the first manual I bought was the #6 Speer. It had a list of factory loads they'd chronographed, and at that time Federal ammo did generally get more velocity than Remington or Winchester, though there were some exceptions. (Some people suggested that this was because Federal didn't make rifles as well as ammo....)

When affordable chronographs started becoming more available in the 1980's, many shooters discovered just how anemic some factory ammo could be. I found, for instance, that Remington .270 ammo with 130 Core-Lokts got under 2700 fps from the 22" barrel of my wife's rifle. When shooters started complaining, the factories started loading ammo closer to specs.

However, I would bet that since then the factories have noticed that the vast majority of people who buy factory ammo don't own chronographs. (In fact, I am constantly astounded by how many handloaders don't, but that's another subject.)

When the 7mm Remington Magnum was introduced, Remington factory ammo was loaded with IMR7828, a powder DuPont developed specifically for the cartridge. The ammo was really stout listed at over 3000 fps for the 175-grain bullet, though that was from a 26" barrel--and according to Speer, got there.

Eventually, as piezo pressure equipment became more commonly used in the industry, it was found that the 7mm RM produced wider velocity and pressure variations than most other rounds, something not all that apparent with the copper-crusher equipment used to develop the round. Consequently SAAMI reduced the maxiumum average pressure a few thousand PSI, but even that reduction doesn't account for some of today's wimpy 7mm RM factory ammo.

On the other hand, a friend of mine started loading the 7mm RM long before he or any of his friends owned a chronograph, using 160-grain bullets and a powder charge that the bullet-maker's manual said would get around 3000 fps. He used the load for years, killing lots of deer, black bear and elk. They all dropped nicely, and he was very pleased with his 7mm bolt of lightning.

Then he bought his fist chronograph, and found the load was getting around 2700 fps, about what's possible from a warmly loaded 7x57. Of course, he had to change the load.

The point could either be that a chronograph is the only way to know the real speed of our ammo, or that the 7x57 really is the finest 7mm ever invented. Maybe Ingwe can enlighten us further on that point.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the seething masses cannot be enlightened to the merits of the consummate, ultimate cartridge....

Or to ice in whiskey....

I concur on the 7RM point. Used the 7mag for over 10 years, always handloaded. Got a Chronograph and tried a factory Rem core-lockt in the green and yellow box and with the 175gr bullet it went 2730fps, my wifes 280 with 175gr Hornaday handloads runs 2680fps with 51.5gr of IMR 4350.
The 7mag is long gone but today we load 54gr of R-22 with a 160gr AccuBond at 2800fps..........a nice load for the 280.

Thanks Mule Deer. One other note, my 7600 carbine 06 shoots winchester 180 gr power point factory loads at around 2600-2625 fps. An entirely reasonable velocity out of an 18.5 in bbl.

Yep, that's about right in a short barrel. The bullets should work perfectly at that speed!

Sweet Geezus is nothin' sacred!

Ingwe I caught you taking JB's statement out of context....tsk, tsk....I know friendcship permits literary license but geez that is so unfair......LOL!

There is not a bad one in the 7mm bunch and I luv them all....but with deference to the worthy opinions expressed herein...gimme my chronograph,a few pounds of RL25 or H1000...and I'll boot the 7 Mag gently in the arse for 3000-3100 with a 160 and be happy....but dats just me

I would imagine that putting ice in whiskey, like not getting full velocity from one's handloads, is far more common than internet banter would lead us to believe.

Edited to add: I say that as a 7x57 owner who did put ice in his Famous Grouse recently...

Figures,

you either is class or you ain't.

If you ain't, nothing helps - not even owning a 7x57.

Appears the philistines are taking over the marketing dep. for the destilleries anyways -

http://www.thefamousgrouse.com/behind-the-label/serving-suggestions

Such goings on - anything to make a sale...

Fascinating the way these threads sometimes veer off course to factory ammo, whiskey, and ladies....

JB if you are still around, do you care to weigh in on my initial question? What 308 Win. bullets do you like?

The .308 is one of the mid-velocity rounds that works very well on a wide variety of game with just about any big game bullet on the market. I tend to prefer premium 150's in the .308, but with standard cup-and-cores I might choose a 165, just because it's going a little slower and has a little more mass. There's also nothing wrong with a 180 at 2650 or so, since it pretty much duplicates the .30-06 load that's been killing big game reliably since the 1920's. (Before then the 180-grain .30-06 load got more like 2500 fps--and also worked very well.)

My present .308 is a Merkel single-shot, and the only load I've used from it is the 150-grain Nosler AccuBond and 46.5 grains of Varget for right at 2900 fps in the Merkel's 24" barrel. So far it has accounted for game from 40 to 400 pounds with no problems.

On her last safari my wife used the 150-grain Nosler E-Tip with the same powder charge, for about 2800 fps from the 21" barrel of her custom Serengeti .308. It worked extremely well on a pile of animals from pronghorn-sized springbok to elk-sized zebra. But she has also used the 150-grain Remington Core-Lokt Ultra and Nosler Partition to take North American game in the 300-pound range, and both worked fine. In fact the 150 Partition broke both shoulders of a big Texas pig and exited, dropping the pig right there.

Thanks. I appreciate the answer.

I've got some 150 Horn BTSP and 150 TTSX's loaded waiting for the rifle to be finished I was going to try the 150/165 Partitions next if needed. Reading these forums can make choosing a bullet seem tougher than choosing a spouse.....It seems a lot of the 30 cal bullets will get it done at mid velocity.

Yep.

It also isn't a bad idea to find two bullets, one softer and more affordable, and one costlier and tougher, and see if they will shoot together with the same load. You can then use the more affordable one for sighting-in, practice and hunting deer-sized game, and the other for those special occasions when something bigger is the primary game. The Hornady and TTSX would be pretty good in those roles.

Thanks, that was exactly what I had in mind for these two selections. Hopefully, accuracy will be there and they will have a similar POI. It will be interesting, as the TTSX is almost twice as long as the BTSP.

I like the 150 grain Hornaday flat base spire points for just about everything. I did shoot an elk last year at 350 yards with the 150 grain Barnes TTSX in the front shoulder. It performed perfectly. I don't shoot a lot of premiums in the slower rounds, but this one really surprised me. The bullet definitely expanded, crunched bone and exited. The big cow elk went a few yards and tipped over on her nose. Flinch

djb et al: What you are about to hear is AS earth shattering as the Grand Canyon closing its chasm.

For 40 PLUS yrs I NEVER considered the 308 Win & Elk hunting in the same THOUGHT much less a discussion.

I guess I've been a victim of 'publicity' or HYPE. I haven't owned any 308 W for many yrs. I am NOT enamored by 'short actions'. They just don't do anything for me, I don't have any problem with LONG ACTIONS. Even today the only s a I have is a 6mm & 243 W.

I am PROVING that I can have an open mind. I have learned and admit that a 308 is an ELK ADEQUATE cartridge even past short range. That's quite a statement from me, from where I've been.

Now I'm not looking for a 308 SINCE I already own 7 Mags,06, 300 Win. & 8mm RM.

From this thread & others, I've learned form EXPERIENCED hunters, that even tho Elk are BIG, they aren't BULLET PROOF.

Now, I have quit using the 6mm's for deer because I WANT a larger hole, IN & OUT. The 6mm's definitely are good deer killers, but WHERE I HUNT a deer can be terribly hard,if not IMPOSSIBLE, to find without a good blood trail.

Back to 308 & Elk. 30 Cal isn't a small hole and there is enough terminal damage to destroy the VITAL organs. Also we have SEVERAL terrific bullets to choose from that will do good jobs for the intended purposes.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU from this thread & others here and the Elk Hunting forum.

"When affordable chronographs started becoming more available in the 1980's, many shooters discovered just how anemic some factory ammo could be. I found, for instance, that Remington .270 ammo with 130 Core-Lokts got under 2700 fps from the 22" barrel of my wife's rifle. When shooters started complaining, the factories started loading ammo closer to specs."

My buddy got three boxes of the above ammo from his grandfather. We chronographed it and it averaged 2,670 fps. from his 22" barreled .270. I thought my chronograph was busted. We burned up a whole box of it, trying to get the chrono to read right...lol, but it kept reading very close to the same velocity. I tried a different chrono and got the same reading. Needless to say, we shot it at rabbits. That was the slowest factory ammo I have ever shot. I had forgotten about that experience until you brought it up. Flinch

Chrono's and LRF's have modified what we believe just a bit. One of my mentors in life and bestest friends likes to say he used to make a ton of 400 yd shots and thought his rig was shooting flatter than it was supposed to till he got a LRF and figured out that his 400 yarders were 250 yarders..grin

I won't even begin to tell you my GPS story...

Dober

Let me guess....your friend said he packed his elk 8 miles one way? It was really about 3/4th of a mile. Kind of like a lot of people on here claim

Either that or you got lost 300 yards from your truck Flinch

Hey be nice to this older man, it was 301 yds...

Dober

I heard you blowing that whistle like a scared little girl. Glad I was able to help you out and "point" the way back to your truck. Good thing you had the whistle Flinch

165 gr. Nosler Partitian will do it all.

I would avoid the traditional cup and core bullets from any maker for the once a year trip. My last stop with a cup and core 180 was from a .30-06 (Light Magnum.) Shot the large mule deer going away just before he went over the top @ about 200 yds. Believe it or not, there was no entrance wound-a true Texas heart shot. The pelvis was shattered and the deer was trying to crawl away. A quick neck shot finished the job. dressing/butchering showed not only the pelvis destroyed, but the bullet was also destroyed. Only small fragments were found. On the other hand, I have had decent results with the .308/150s on whitetails. Spend a few extra bucks and go for the Partitions in 165 grain. My .o2. good hunting, jt

Not speaking from experience; however, if I were to go hunting Elk with a 308 Win. I would use one of these:

1. Barnes 165 Triple Shock
2. Nosler 165 Partition

Same here, well actually Im speaking thru someone I loaded for who has killed many elk with:
165 Interbond will kill a lot of elk, along with 44grs RL15.

The team leaders for the Teddy Roosevelt Nat'l Park elk reduction project last year all used 308win/165TSX combo from Federal. The project killed 406 elk in 16wks last fall/winter.

By this time next year there'll be a report out regarding caliber, bullet, range, # of shots to confirm kill, etc from that project. You'll be able to read what worked and what didn't on 600-700 elk kills in 2 yrs.

I spent 3 days last Jan culling with the guy who's in charge of the entire project. Take that for whatever it might be worth.

I've put down a few elk with a 308 and a 165gr partition and none of them went more than a few steps. I felt like I'd like to have had a "bigger rifle" but my rifles had all been stolen when I first moved to Colorado and the 308 was sold to me by a friend for cheap so I could at least hunt until I could afford to get a 300 Winny (which I didn't get before I moved back to Florida and never shot at game much).

I guess the feeling of "rifle inadequacy" was all in my head...

Now my elk rifle is a 375H&H because I have never killed an elk with anything bigger than a 350 Win Mag and I want to do it just so I can say I have.... LOL

Many people say that the 180 is a better bullet for a 308 when after elk and I don't doubt that they're right but my experience with the 165 Partition was nothing short of satisfactory.

I worked for a guide for awhile and saw a lot of elk wounded by city slickers with their 7 Mags and became a big believer in shot placement. When I'd drag out my little ultra light 308 to track down and dispatch their elk they used to offer to loan me their magnums but I knew my rifle and it was "DEAD ON at a hunnert" and I knew the drop out to 300 and that was my choice.

Retreiving elk from deep draws and THICK cover ain't no fun and if it weren't for a horse that I got to use that had absolutely no fear of bloody elk I would have had a LOT less fun.

My latest cartridge for my current lightweight 308 is a Nosler Accubond but it's only dispatched a few whitetails with stellar results and elk are a bit bigger and a lot tougher...

John Barsness's latest article (that I've seen) is here...
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/August_2011.html
It's a good article and since I turned 60 this fall I'm starting to reach for my 243 more and more... Might kill a whitetail with one this year.

Some of the guys on my leases use them exclusively and they always seem to get their deer with one shot.

I know it's a tired old saying but shot placement is the most important part of the killing of game. I used to laugh at the guys that used 270's for elk but most of those guys could shoot and didn't have to deal with much recoil and they always seemed to have one or two shot kills and rarely had to track far.

Just one man's opinion....

$bob$

165 gr. Nosler Partition or any other premium 165 gr. bullet loaded to the max.