Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Just 1 bullet for the 308 Win and elk sized game....

Brad,

What can't you kill with that that should be hunted with a 308? Not to criticize, but a few dozen fps is not really an issue in the game fields, is it?

Never said or even implied that... just having a discussion about speed in various 308's. Harmless chatter, that's it... after all, that's what handloaders do... or so I thought.

I am cheating with a 26" barrel. It seems to run everything pretty quick! Not very fun to carry around the hills though. (I have a 22' barreled, 6lb 338 Fed for the hills)

That makes sense! 4" add's another 100 fps +/-

Wow, Brad interesting pic. I have been away a few days and the UPS guy just delivered 200 pieces of RP brass and some 150 Horn BTSP and �� 150 TTSX to start playing with yesterday. Damn!

I'm still and going to load them up and have some 'tests' in mind to see for myself. A read a decent article recently about 150's in the '06 and JB seems to like them too. BUT, a pic is worth 1000 words.

Looking at those cursed loading manuals the 30�06 and 308 really are pretty close with 150�s. It seems that heavier than 150 is where the �06 really starts to pull ahead. It�s hard to believe comparing the �06 case with that stubby little 308.

It is also interesting how much �bigger� a bullet the TTSX is compared to the BTSP Horn. I actually mic�d and weighed each bullet to make sure one of the boxes wasn�t labeled wrong.

Brad,

The load using N203 is a charge weight of 48gr. The average velocity is 2880fps - 2905fps, depending on which month you chrony the load

djb,

I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. I believe that Brad had a bad experience with that bullet in his pic, but every bullet has a bad day every now and then

I could dig up pics of failed Partitions, too, but you don't hear people worrying about whether or not the PT will work. TTSX failures, much like PT failures, are very rare from what I've seen and read.

Go ahead and use those 150TTSX bullets on targets/game/whatever, and I doubt you'll be disappointed...

My own choice is the 150 grain Barnes MRX with some expectation that it will punch above its weight and of course the ever fashionable plastic tip looks nice. This is actually based on a one load for anything with hair on it for the particular rifle. It's a complex design and may not do well in every rifle from what I hear but I don't know that everybody who says that has spent the money to try them extensively.

That said my preferred bullet when I'm setting out to harvest an elk is a .375 - 260 grain Accubond - doesn't have to punch above its weight. But half of that is romanticism.

Not one mention of my favorite...hmmm. More for me.....grin!

My advice is find one that shoots and make it go where it needs to go.

djb - Re. 06 & 308 loads for 150 grs AND LOADING MANUALS.

Don't you LOVE the picture they paint? How can a long 06 case NOT
exceed the SHORT 308 case SINCE the powder capacity is SO DIFF. w/the same cal. bore.

Part of the reason is the pressure limit that is put on the good ole 06. I can't dig in my records RIGHT NOW but I can ASSURE you that if you get the RIGHT powder and load it to = pressures of the 270, with a MODERN 06, you can leave the 308 BEHIND, even w/150 gr bullets.

I am aware of some newer powders improving the 308's vel. but the 06 has CONSIDERABLY more capacity for other powders. IIRC --IMR 4320 was one powder to start experimenting with, & don't forget IMR 4350 or H 4350.

I probably will make some MAD by this post, but I've had 308s & 06s and a chrono for yrs. FWIW an Oehler 33.

HAVE FUN experimenting...IT CAN BE DONE

Your post makes a lot of sense. I know my chrony is now an invaluable tool for loading.

Reexamining Brad's bullet it looks like it had to have been tumbling when it hit the elk. The way it is bent with the tip apparently ripped out from the side. It just looks to me like it may have caught some brush or grass before the animal. Brad did say that �nothing was hit on the way�, and I respect his opinions from reading his posts. Maybe the bullet just �failed�.

On the other hand I know I have missed a deer this year with my muzzleloader at about 60 yds that appeared to be a wide open shot. As the smoke cleared this doe just stood there looking around. I watched and waited for it to fall but it finally wagged its tail and trotted off. I looked everywhere for blood and the found where the bullet had harmlessly skidded into the dirt well behind the deer. I went back to my shooting position and carefully walked the 60 yds to where the deer was standing. Then I came upon the green wood of a cleanly severed grape vine no thicker than my pinky. This was about 10-15 yds from where the deer had been standing. I was both amazed at the deflection and happy that I didn�t wound the deer. I guess �stuff� just happens sometimes.

If the 150�s shoot well�. I have friends at the local meat shop. I have some ideas for bullet testing that involve real hide and bone.

I used a 22" barreled .30-06 for years and loaded 150 grain Hornady flat base spire points to 2,850 fps (.308 velocity). I killed over 20 mule deer bucks and 4 elk with this bullet. Perfect results every time and bang flops. I only recovered a couple of bullets. One went through the hams and 10 inches of back bone as the buck ran straight away from me at 50 yards. The bullet was a mess, but did the job. The other went 20 inches through a bulls sternum and was found against the stomach. Shot was about 25 yards...DRT.

My all time favorite is the 165 grain Nosler ballistic tip at 2,800 fps. I have killed about 15 deer, 5 elk and a moose with this bullet. I have only recovered two bullets. All others were pass through shots. The elk were from 75-400 yards. All are text book mushrooms. One was recovered from just under the skin of a rag horn bull I shot at 75 yards broad side. The bullet broke both shoulders and the bull was DRT.

I recovered another one against the stomach of a frontal shot on a spike bull at 80 yards. He jumped sideways and was DRT.

The broadside shot on big bull moose at 20 yards exited with a golf ball sized exit hole. All critters were dead right now, except the spike bull that lunged sideways and dropped. Flinch

Those are some nice Elk, Dober...but I'm afraid the 160 Horn out of your Mama's '06 may be overkill.

It didn't leave enough of that bull to feed a buzzard. You just barely had enough head and cape left to put him on the wall!

DJ

The loading manuals load the .308 to proper pressures max pressures. They also keep .30-06 loads down...way down in some manuals and factory loads. Some are so low that they make the .308 look superior in velocity. When loaded to equal pressures, the .30-06 will ALWAYS be 150+ fps above the .308.

I get asked a lot from guys buying new rifles what round they should buy, a .308 or .30-06. If they have NO intention of reloading, I recommend the .308.

Factory .30-06 factory ammo runs neck and neck with .308 factory ammo. I have chronographed a lot of factory ammo and have found this to be true. If they plan on hand loading, then I recommend the .30-06 over the .308. Both are more than enough for everything the world has to offer, other than cape buffalo and elephant. Flinch

What do you usually see for speeds out of the factory ammo for the two Flinch?

Last box of factory I clocked was Rem 150's for the 06 and they were a bit over 2900 if I recall right. And I did some clock work with the Fushions and it seems to me in the 06 they ran 2800 with the 165 and 2700 or so with the 180's.

Thx
Dober

Does no one shoot elk with 165 TBs out of a .308? I haven't, but they seem to ragdoll Tennessee whitetail every time, with exits that don't look nearly big as 150 Cup n Core make

150 gr E-tip or TTSX

Dober, older (6-15 years old) .30-06 ammo loaded by Remington and Winchester has normally been up to specs (150 grain bullets at 2,900ish fps). With all the lawyers giving ammo makers troubles and the high government regulations on propellant, the ammo makers have REALLY lowered the pressures and velocities of factory ammo. I have seen Federal loads in the 2,750-2,800 fps for 150 grain bullets in .30-06 (mirrors most loading manuals). I have found that Federal is the most conservative ammo maker on the market, especially in .30-06 and 7mm mag.

I have chronographed many Federal 160 grain 7mm mag factory loads that were 2,850 fps. in 26" barrels. That is HORRIBLE velocity. I have chronographed 140 grain 7mm mag loads that won't top 3,000 fps. in 26" barrels. I don't know why Federal is so scared to put powder in their ammo. People buy magnums in order to get more velocity. It is kind of a bait and switch.

On the flip side, I have some 20 year old Remington 140 grain ammo that cooks along at over 3,300 fps in 7mm mags with 26" barrels. I have even called Remington about it and they are VERY tight lipped about what the put in the hulls. It is a very LONG extruded powder.

I have found the Winchester, Remington and Federal loads in 150 grain .308 to hover right around 2850 fps. 165's hover around 2,750 fps, very close to factory .30-06 ammo.

So for a factory ammo shooter that shoot 150-165 grain bullets, the .308 and .30-06 run neck and neck. The .30-06 factory ammo pulls away once the 180's come into the mix. Not by much, but by a reasonable amount, in my experience. I'm sure there are exceptions and I haven't chronographed every load out there, but others have mirrored my experiences.

The old Federal High Energy 180 grain TBBC bullet in .30-06 was amazing stuff. In two factory 24" barrels, I averaged 2,940 fps. (same as Mule Deer has experienced). I shot it for a season in a 27.5" .30-06 and got an average of 3,040 fps. It was a hammer on critters. I don't know why they stopped loading it. It was fairly accurate and really crunched critters. Flinch

Did you get good accuracy with the HE stuff? I only shot it a bit, and it and the Horn HE whatever they called it never was a rock star when it came to accuracy. But, I didn't work with it much either..

Thx
Dober

In my custom rifle it would shoot just over an inch, so no, it wasn't super accurate. I think the new TTBC bullet made by Federal looks MUCH better. They look cleaner and more balanced, especially with the plastic tip.

The old TBBC bullets had a really blunt nose and the lead tip/jacket didn't look very concentric. For 300 yard shots and closer, it was good stuff. Beyond that, it dropped like a stone. Flinch