I have a Redding 7x57 FL die that isn't responding to any fixes.

Using neck-sorted, once-fired Remington brass, the die itself sizes the brass very straight, so it's clearly the expander that's the problem.

Expanding as a separate step doesn't work, either with the die tight or loose in the press. In line with the advice on the case lube thread, I tried brushing the case necks with either RCBS case lube or Imperial sizing die wax, but neither seems to make a difference.

I've spun the decapping rod in my Casemaster and tried bending it slightly, but it looks as if the ball itself isn't concentric with the rod. With the working end of the Casemaster touching the top edge of the expander ball, I see about .003" runout. Is that likely to be the problem?

Johnny Buffalo might be chasing critters, so I'll drop in my take on this.

You might try one of Reddings tungsten/carbide floating sizing balls. For the 7X57, it would be Kit No. 49283. The t/c ball floats on the expander and centers itself on the case neck as it exits the die. Literally ALL of my Redding sizing dies are so-equipped.

Having shot prolly a million rounds, I can honestly say I've seen lots of relatively crooked ammunition shoot awfully straight.

Personally, I am a nut on case neck concentricity and sort every case I shoot to .001".

Ammo runout is something I chase only if I am having trouble getting the rifle to shoot and eliminated several other potential causes.

Schit like this can drive a normally-sane man crazy.

Steve

Ditto Steve's remarks on the Redding carbide sizing balls. -Al

Loose the expander. Get a seperate decap die and have the size die honed out by Redding to the amount you specify. Basically a custom "non" bushing. Makes great straight neck.

Alan

Thanks, all. I've ordered the carbide expander ball.

I also tried the expander ball from my Redding .280 Rem. FL die, which makes very straight cases. It pulled cases just as crooked as the one that came with the 7x57 die.

Then, while waiting for the 7mm expander ball to arrive, I decided to work on some .30-06 cases. My Redding .30-06 die also makes very straight cases, and I immediately noticed that the expander ball pulls through much more easily than the one in the 7x57.

This reminded me that several years ago, I had a similar problem with my .375 H&H, and sent the die back to Redding with some fired cases. Along the line of GSSP's suggestion, the folks at Redding said the die was sizing the necks more than necessary and reamed it out a little. It still uses the expander ball but works perfectly now. So if the carbide ball doesn't solve the problem, I guess I'll be going that route.

dogzapper or others,
Now this is not the same as a neck sizer bushing right?

"I also tried the expander ball from my Redding .280 Rem. FL die, which makes very straight cases. It pulled cases just as crooked as the one that came with the 7x57 die."

That would make me think that you might have cases with uneven neck wall thickness, because by switching the expander ball, you have eliminated any out-of-roundness.

It could also mean that the die is out of round or off-center where it is drilled and tapped for the de-capping rod.

If you only substituted the ball from the .280 die, and not the entire stem, the problem could be with an off center stem.

Try the entire stem and re-sizer ball from the .280 die and see if the cases come out straight.

I am not very familiar with Redding dies, having only owned one set. My experience is with RCBS dies, and I am assuming that the Redding and RCBS dies and stem operate about the same way. I did not say interchangable, but operate.

1234567,

That's a great point. I'll try the .280 stem tonight. (My cases are already sorted for neck thickness, so that shouldn't be the problem.)

Thank you!

I have a Redding FL die in 257 Wby that does the same thing. Redding sent a decap assembly with a diff dia exp, but it didn't help a bit. Same as you say, necks with concentric thickness, but terrible RO after the exp pulls through. Lube didn't help a bit. I put a 25-06 exp in a 270Wby die and use it to expand after I size with the FL 257Wby die. They come out straight this way. Redding asked me to send the die back for inspection. I have a feeling the tapped portion of the die is the culprit.

You'll run into a dud die once in a while. I've had 3 RCBS dies and one Forster that gave terrible RO as well despite adjustments.

It's hard to beat a Lee collet and Redding body die combo for straight cases.

loder

Uneven annealing causes really bad runout too. Did you anneal the cases? Even heating is critical.

Another idea is to raise the expander ball upward and close to the neck area of the sizing die as possible. The higher the expander ball, the more support the sizing die gives the case during expanding.

Hard case necks require a lot of tension to pull the case over the expander ball, which can cause or contribute to runout (stretching too). If you hear a sound like "Squawk!" when pulling a case over the expander ball, either the brass is too hard, or the inside of the neck improperly lubricated, or both. If yours pull hard, anneal them, then lubricate inside the necks with powdered graphite.

Big Redhead,

No, these were once-fired cases.

First of all a standard sizer squeezes the case neck down way below bullet size...

THEN...dragging an expander ball through a small neck ALWAYS squirrels things up no matter WHAT you do unless you start with measuring your chamber neck and chamber...then match the sizer to fit with a minimum amount of squish and take that expander ball and use it for a fishing weight. The only expander balls I use are NOT BALLS, they are elliptical shaped or tapered rods...and unless you clean/polish the inside of EACH case neck with a bit of steel wool on a brush running in a drill motor AND use Imperial wax on another brush to slick up the neck inside, or dry lube, you will keep spinning your tires...FOREVER.

The BEST thing you can do is to buy a Redding or Wilson FL bushing type die...measure a fired case OR better yet have a chamber cast made so you know, exactly, the neck OD...THEN buy a bushing that reduces the neck ID 2-3 thou smaller.

Go to a benchrest forum and read how those boys do their case and follow suit. You don't have a benchrester but what they do to their cases is part and parcle of those small groups they shoot.

You are already working with a factory chamber unless you had the rifle custon built and can get the dimensions from the reamer that was used to cut the chamber...which means you're chasing after butterfly's...no diss or flame intended...I did the very same things 50-60 years ago.

You need to FL size your cases with the sizer screwed down 1.5 turns past where it hits the top of the shell holder at full stroke...NO BREAK OVER...a solid stop against the die bottom at the top of the stroke. This will center the case and(most of the time) remove any case runout. If it doesn't then you have problems in the dies or press.

I would also put away the brass you are messing with right now, buy some Lapua, Norma or RWS brass and the Redding FL sizer die at least and start fresh and right to begin with.

You can also toss the expander ball or grind it down, use the "dummy" primer pin holder that usually comes with the bushing dies or buy one from Redding or use a 6.5 expander or smaller so you DON'T touch the neck, THEN use a Sinclair expander rod to open up the neck...Hornady uses an elliptical expander and Lee sizers have a very nice taper to the expander rod...but for gosh sakes if you are going nutz over case neck runout get rid of the "button" and use one or a combination of the others...I do it all the time when I run into difficulties with a particular rifle or set of dies.

I have a set of Hornady, Lee, RCBS and Redding standard and bushing dies for many of my shooters...AND a Wilson straight line seater...plus sliding chambers for my Forster Ultra seater...each is used for it's particular strong points. I like Hornaday sizers and elliptical expanders but the seater sucks...Redding always has excellent sizers but you see the problems with their expanders, the seaters are OK for hunting expectations and even their high dollar, custom micrometer seater isn't all it's cracked up to be...I have 3 sets and the seater stays in the box while I use a Wilson straight line seater...same with RCBS. Lee's sizers and expanders work great without causing major runout problems but the seaters suck also...and I really like the Collet dies for some calibers.

I've been at this game many years and usually start out with the cheaper sets of dies, then get more expensive if needed, so I have ALL the standards covered several times over. I also use Lee dies for case forming when doing some of my wildcats...Totally much cheaper than RCBS forming dies.

Expander balls have been the bain of reloaders from the start and for some reason people get all pig headed thinking they HAVE to use them when there are simple well known workarounds being used for as long as I've been doing this and I learned it from old timers who learned it when THEY were young.

Measure the neck ID of a fired case sized WITHOUT the expander button and see just how much the neck is reduced and what the ID of the neck is...depending on where the tolerances for the chamber reamer and the sizer reamer fall, you might just be able to put a nice bevel on the neck mouth inside with your deburring tool and just seat your bullets without bothering with an "expander"...I've done that on several hunting rifles without any problems, and worked up loads that hit the top end of the velocity spectrum AND 3/4" or slightly less 3-5 shot groups...plenty good enough for deer, sage goats, elk AND sage ratz for practice.

Luck

Nope, this is a little t/c ball that actually floats on the Decapping Rod. Normally, I lightly lubricate the inside/outside of the case neck and run the case through the die.

Neck Sizing Bushings, as BR guys use in Wilson arbor dies and Redding Type-S dies are heavy-walled hardened steel tubes and they size the OUTSIDE of the neck and are graduated in .001". The t/c ball expands the INSIDE of the case neck.

I'm a little surprised that the "Throw the Danged Expander Ball and Rod Away" gang hasn't arrived. The fly in the ointment on that one is that most guys don't sort their case necks for concentricity and regular dies also over-size the case neck down. You need the expander ball to expand the neck to a consistent inside dimension, so that the BULLET PULL is constant.

Handloading is simply plumbing. Open your mind, dealing with easy problems and easy solutions will arrive.

Steve

I don't want to get a brouhaha going, but it doesn't matter whether you do the inside sizing with a expander OR outside sizing with a bushing...as long as the neck wall is uniform the bullet release will be uniform as close as can be expected. You can adjust bullet release in both methods by changing bushings or polishing the button.

I like the outside better as the case is center at the top and bottom of the case at the top of the stroke but the case is left flopping around at the bottom when the expander button is pulled through even if the case is still supported at the neck.

But it really doesn't matter all that much except with the accuracy potential of a benchrest gun and each shooter has their own particular methods. When I was in the sport 40 years ago I used a Wilson seater fitted precisely to the chamber and cases neck turned to the nth degree and most chamber necks were so close NONE of the cases were sized...normal springback of the brass was all that was needed.

I have no idea what benchresters are doing now, but I still build my own rifles, stick to what is readily available, turn the necks on ALL my shooters from 17FB to 510 Makatak(50 cal blownout Rigby case) and manage to keep most well below half inch 3-5 shot groups.

Eveyone has their preferences and enjoy their own level of accuracy...if it works for you, keep doing it...or try something new to see if it works or not...

Luck

Yup, whatever works.

No prob with me; just trying to help, as is everyone else.

God Bless,

Steve

Here's what they look like:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/28-carbide-size-button-kits

Good shootin'. -Al

Forever Friend Al,

I REALLY MISS you, my brother.

Karen sends her love. She had a stroke last week, but she's doing really, really good and sends a HUG, too.

God Bless,

Your buddy Steve

Steve, best wishes to you and Karen.

Friend Steve: Tell 'Deadeye' she's in my thoughts and prayers...and that it's my honor to return the hug.

God bless you both! -Al

Update ...

The Redding carbide expander ball arrived yesterday. I promptly installed it and tried it on a few more once-fired cases.

While it pulled through the neck with noticeable ease compared to the regular ball, it still pulled the cases crooked, with about .004"-.005" average runout at the case mouth.

I switched over to resize some .30-06 cases, and the .30 cal. ball is still easier to pull through than the 7mm carbide ball.

I've got to think it's something about the die body now. Anyone?

John, I've been waiting for your update. This thread caused me to get a button resizer for the 270Win., 7x57 and 30-06. I haven't sat down with it yet though. Reading about your experience, I wonder if an improperly machined shell holder couldn't also be causing the problem? Maybe it is "presenting" the case slightly off angle? An experiment I am thinking is to measure runout for 10 cases and record it. Full length resize with the new button tool and measure the runout. BUT, index the cases position with a felt tip marker before removing them, re-size them again now only 180* rotated and measure. In that way the shell holder would be holder the case different. Something I am going to try as time permits.

That's an intriguing thought, but I'm using the same shellholder I use with my .30-06 dies. It's the Redding Competition +.010, and incidentally I used most of the rest of the set with the .30-06, trying to size cases from my old Mark X small enough to work in my NULA. (Can't be done, it turns out.) Anyway, all of those worked fine.

Ok. I have a shellholder in each of the Redding Deluxe Die Sets.
Maybe you have to sit straighter in your chair?

That's about the only thing I haven't tried!

I remove all the expander balls from my dies. Don't use them anymore.

I give virgin brass a one time push up a K&M mandrel, done.

Yeah, and hold your tongue STRAIGHT FORWARD in your mouth while running the case into and out of the die. No crooked tongue stuff, now

Steve

Eyes forward, feet together, hands still, butt clenched.

This thread made me re-examine a .308 die I've had fits with. Most other dies, sizing without the expander and then running the case back up onto the expander works well. With this particular die, it forced the neck out of alignment every time. I have another set of .308 dies that work fine, so it is not a big deal, but it is perplexing.

I gave up expander buttons back when i discoverd the Lee Collet die... The craziness ended that day. The whole idea of an expander button never did seem like a reasonable solution to me and for precision reloading it's comparable to surgery with a chain saw...

$bob$

John, try this to narrow down the possibilities:

-Put an 'o' ring between the die lock ring and top of the press, then check the concentricity.

Good shootin'. -Al

Al,

Thanks, tried that last night. No change.

I talked to Redding the other day and they suggested many of the same things. Unless someone comes up with a miracle this weekend, I'm sending the die to them on Monday.

John

Latest update - I sent the die to Redding (with the carbide ball installed, and with several neck-sorted, fired cases from my rifle) and they checked it out. They concluded the expander stem was crooked, replaced it, tested it and found it was making nice, straight cases. (They sent the cases back to prove it.)

But when I tried it for myself, I got the same runout as before. Now I'm really stumped. Clearly I'm doing something wrong, or at least different from what Redding did. But I'm not doing anything different with these dies than I do with any other dies, with perfectly OK results. Same press, same shellholders, same neck brush, same case lube.

Out of sheer curiosity, I also bought a Redding neck die, which gave about the same runout as the FL die.

Work has been crazy so I haven't had time to call them back, but does anyone have any possible theory that might explain this, just so I have something to kick around on the phone when I do have time to call?

Apparently the die is possessed by demons. I run into one of those once in a while.

One thing you might try: Size the cases with the decapper/expander stem removed. Then replace the stem and PUSH the expander ball into the necks of the resized cases. Often that will do the trick.

It does require another step in reloading, but in a big game rifle where you're only loading a box or two at a time that's no biggie.

Do you mean push just enough to get the fat part of the expander ball through the length of the neck, without the "bump" of pulling it back through?

No, push it all the way through, then pull it back out again.

If that keeps the necks pretty straight, I'll tell you why it works--and the probable reason you're having troubles.

JB do you know if any manufacturer has tried putting the expander ball hanging from a chain or wire inside the sizing die? So long as the fired neck is large enough to let it in, it should have the effect of pulling the expander ball thru the neck manually and be self centering, yes?

Have you tried with the expander rod loose in the die?

Have you tried a different press? I can imagine that if it's out of center it could cause some wonky things...

Yes.

No, but this press works fine with all my other dies.

I'd tried that already, though maybe not with the carbide ball. Anyway, I just went and tried it with the carbide ball on the new stem, just to be sure. I got about .004" runout on both, about the same as I was getting before the die's road trip. Maybe a little less but I only did two cases -- my supply of once-fired 7x57 brass is dwindling!

Yeah, I saw you tried it already in the opening post, just wondered what would happen with the carbide expander ball.

The news doesn't sound good, but you might try it a little more. The badly-sized brass can be straightened out by running them into the sizing die (without the decapping stem) a couple of times, turning the case 1/2 turn between each sizing.

I'm beginning to wonder if the brass was unevenly annealed at the factory. If so, running it into the sizer a couple more times will work work-harden it somewhat, evening it out.

The other possibility is that the rim thickness is a little uneven. This would tilt the cases as little as they're being pulled over the expander ball. It's beginni9ng to sound more and more like a brass problem.

John F: I would not waste this much time, effort, and headache, when you can just buy a new set of dies for $30. Try some RCBS etc...

Hmmm ... I do have a small quantity of once-fired Winchester brass from factory loads I could try. Will report back.

At this point, I'm too curious to give up!

Remove the primer punch and expander ball. Size a few cases and check for runout.

If you still have runout, you have at least eliminated the stem and expander ball.

Perhaps try another brand of cases. That would rule out the brass being thicker on one side and also rule out hardness variations. Or rule it in, as the case may be.

1234567,

If you'd read the thread, you'd know he's already tried sizing cases without the stem and expander ball. The die sized the cases perfectly. And some other people have also already suggested another brand of cases.

I think we have a winner!

As I mentioned, I knew I had 20 rounds of once-fired brass from Winchester factory loads. When I dug them out to throw them in the tumbler, I discovered something I'd totally forgotten -- 20 once-fired and resized Winchester cases from another box of factory loads.

These were almost certainly fired and resized before I owned a concentricity gauge, and may have been sized on my previous press, on different shellholders, or both. But I know for sure that they were sized in the same die, because it's the only 7x57 die set I've ever owned.

So, I spun them on the Case Master. Out of 20 cases, one had about .004" runout, three or four were barely nudging .003", and the rest were .002" or less (mostly much less).

Out of curiosity, I also checked neck thickness. This proved they were fired and resized before I used the Case Master, because three or four cases were uneven by more than .0015", which would have gotten them put in a cull bag if I'd been measuring. (Interestingly, none of those were in the group with higher runout, but it's not a staggeringly huge sample.)

The next step will be to resize my other 20 Winchester cases in exactly the same way I've been doing with the Remington cases that prompted this whole thread, but that's a project for a night when I've gotten over the switch to Standard Time.

OK John.... Enough time off from this. My OCD is kicking in again and I simply have to know "the rest of the story".

How about an update?

$bob$

LDHunter,

Sorry, I haven't had time to try anything else due to work and family obligations.

I did happen to visit a gun store that actually sells reloading gear, and bought a set of RCBS FL dies just for grins.

Actually trying those, and working with the W-W cases, remain high on the list of things to do if I survive Thanksgiving.

John

C'mon Steve, how many "normal" guys are there on this board?? "Normal" people don't even know that this stuff exists let alone worry about it.

As my daughter used to say: "I think I would recognize "normal" if I saw it!"

Johnny $

Did'nt he say the die company sized some and they were straight??rules out the brass no????

That nags at me, too, but they only sized the 3-4 cases I sent them - not a huge sample.

When I have a problem like this I blame the cases and turn all the necks. if that fail chit can them and get new cases, not worth fretting over.

I just remembered something..I was forming 357 Harret cases from 30-30 brass. and had a box of winchester brass once fired. when I sized it it would spring back enough that cases could not be formed from them. even setting the dies all the way down then1/2 turn more the press would knuckle over and lock. when I would try to chamber a new made case the action would not close,that is how far back the case would spring.. that box of cases had something in the metal that made the cases too springy I finally dumped them as I only had one box of them.. maby you got a box of bad metal in the cases????