A popular gun magazine devoted this month's issue to the many virtues of the Mauser 98 rifle. The writer's and outfitters took the opportunity to strongly criticize the remington extractor. The military sniper rifles use the remington extractor and the Chandler Brothers who build sniper rifles for "Blackwater" and others say that they do not have a problem with the remington extractors and use them on their sniper rifles. Why are guides and outfitters having such a difficult time with the remington extractor and the military is able to use this extraction successfully? Also, would you recommend replacing the remingotn extractor with a sako or M 16 extractor?

Idiots frequently criticise the Remington extractor. The M-16 and Sako extractor conversions are very dangerous. No good gunsmith will do one.

If there's a weakness in the Remington extractor , it's more than made up for by the Three Rings of Steel and the safety it provides the shooter !

i have shot a lot of rounds in various cartriges in a 700 and have never seen one fail. but sako type extractors are common add ons in my circle of shooters

Commissioner,

Welcome to the Campfire.

You just made one basic mistake already, however: "The writers and outfitters took the opportunity to strongly criticize the remington extractor."

Sorry, but one of the things that ticks many gun writers off is any blanket statement such as "all the gun writers say the .270 isn't adequate for elk," or "gun magazines always say blah blah blah...."

Here's one gun writer who contributed to the Mauser 98 issue, and never mentioned the Remington 700 extractor in my article. In fact I have even hunted "dangerous game" with a Remington 700 and it worked slick as snot--and I've mentioned that in national print.

Just a mild warning.

I think the factory extractor is very safe, but to say no good smiths will install them is a very short sided statement! You need to do your homework before making a statement like that...you should be ashamed!

I have some issues with the 700 type rifle when it comes to important hunts. However, the extractor isn't one of the 'problems' that rates a high position on my list. I've torn rims off with them, though I never hunt with loads that are snug or hot enough to tempt that problem. A well tested M700/M7 can be a very trustworthy rifle for just about any type of use IMO.

Only a matter of time before the bolt handle pic arrives

I don't know that guides are having such a difficult time - lots of ringing endorsements by folks who can shoot anything they want see e.g. Midway for a Remington DG build for his own use by their lead gunsmith a
man named Potter.

Similar to others my own experience has been that a Remington extractor took a large firm grip on a case that I loaded imprudently - twice - and then I learned better. It worked for me so I see no reason to change it.

I've never thought I could engineer better than the factory, and if tempted to think I could or should I'd buy something else first. The world is full of people who are tempted to improve and more power to them; sometimes their cast-offs are my bargains.

But rumor has it that there were at some times QA issues as there often are with springs - maybe I got a good one? and maybe a proper gunsmith fit with QA helps? - - and certainly with the 742 series - maybe that tainted the whole brand. Maybe folks aren't testing and preparing their equipment for hunts where they don't sleep at home every night as rumor says some didn't keep the 742 chamber in the best of shape. This is not likely to be an issue with the military.

No need, I also have pictures of a Remington extractor that failed.

Seriously - the reason no one else has problems with Remington rifles is because I get all the bad ones. In this case the extractor wouldn't snap over the rim of a case. The bolt would not close just by normal pressure and lowering the handle, you had to really slam it home. When you opened the bolt the extractor would spin around in its slot and then leave the next case in the chamber. I would use a little screw driver to push the extractor back around into position, slam it home and extract the case.

This wasn't a situation where a sliver of brass had wedged itself in the extractor or anything, I cleaned it scrupulously. Never did find out why it wouldn't work properly. Oh, BTW - I have had a sliver of brass get down into the ejector pin hole on more than one occasion and jam the ejector in the retracted position. The case would extract but with the ejector held back it would not eject. At least with that condition you could manually pluck the case from the bolt face.

Had the bad extractor replaced and the replacement works fine. When you look at it outside the bolt it's a wonder that it does work so well on so many rifles. It's a little sheet metal looking C shaped piece that isn't as big as a dime.

We have an Anne Frank memorial in town that I drive by occasionally. On the memorial it has a quote from her, "In spite of all that has happened, I still believe that people are truly good at heart."

I am reminded of that now - "In spite of all that has happened, I still believe that Remingtons are truly good at heart."

For those who don't need the picture to see that problem, they'll never look at a 700 the same again. I don't trust the ones I haven't tested thoroughly.

Jim, the heart is good....it's the LAD that can go bad, and w/o it the heart dies.......

So it is if one has a Rem bolt handle go bad, the heart of the action, all 3 rings dies ...as that's all it is then - 3 Rings of cold dead steel.

If there is a 'Test' to weed out the bad ones, then why do some go bad after they leave the Factory? Does Rem not 'test' them?

It's Murphy's Law as far as I am concerned. A small chance, but one I won't take on an expensive important hunt, or one where failure in my rifle might mean my inability to defend myself against an animal that can do bodily harm

I cannot understand why Rem refuses to fix their design flaw, when other mfg. HAVE one piece bolt handles. Whatever the # of beans extra it costs in true mfg. costs, can always be tacked on......yet I can always buy a Howa for the same or less money, or others.

Rem's might be 99% or 99.5 or 99.9% reliable on NOT having a bolt handle come off, but so long as they continue the same brazed design, some WILL fall off. It's Murphy's Law and it strikes w/o warning.

Hopefully none of you have that happen when you REALLY need that rifle to cycle.

The academics always pooh-pooh personal experiences like this as "anecdotal." Whatever their opinions doesn't change matters for those of us who have actually experienced quality failures in Remington products. I did.

In my case, I had a custom 375 H&H LH on a 700 action fail in a DG situation in Zambia. The bolt seized after the first shot on a cape buffalo. Thankfully, he took off in a different direction. I hammered the bolt open with the hilt of my Randall. The extractor held and later shots functioned properly, but I totally lost confidence in it as a DG rifle.

Yes, you could say that the high heat might have swelled the chamber, or that the custom barrel was a bit too tight, but I was using factory ammo. We tracked that buff for more than 12 hours over two days before losing its tracks in a herd. Thorn bushes, over 100 degree heat, walking forever, tsetse flies, yes it was a great experience, but one I do not plan to repeat. As soon as I got back I had a Model 70 controlled feed extractor and ejector installed.

I do not disagree that 700s tend to be accurate, but for DG use, I would never again use one.

Norm
_____

I never could see how brazed on bolt handles were a "design" flaw.

Especially given how the BARRELS on some of the finest and most expensive guns every built- British side by sides -are SOLDERED together and many of them have last over 100 years and many many cartridges.

If a good joint is achieved with brazing, you darn near have to destroy the two parts to get them apart.

Another interesting thing about the rem 700 action is the fact that most of the more expensive m700 clone actions still use the same bolt handle attachment system.

This is going to be fun;

An excerpt from:
Rifle Lessons Learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam





Remington 700. The 700 may be a very fine hunting rifle. I don't know because I've never used one, but I do know that it is a piss poor dangerous game rifle especially in .416 Rem caliber. Apart from the odd inexplicable misfire, a broken extractor cost us an elephant wounded and lost at Rifa. This is not the first year that I've seen a broken extractor on a Remington 700 in .416 either. In addition they are just about the hardest rifle to refill the magazine in a hurry. My memories this year of students and candidates using them is that of youngsters frantically trying to thrust cartridges into the mag, only to have a double feed, the rounds pop straight back out or many other problems. A two round reload took on average, twice as long with the Model 700's as it did with just about any other make of rifle. The difference between the Remington and the Weatherby is that the latter can be downloaded a little so as to operate flawlessly and the safety fixed, whilst I do not know that anything can be done with the Remingtons except to re-barrel them to a plains game cartridge and leave them at home when out after the dangerous stuff. To be fair though, all of the extraction problems seem to be confined to rifles in .416 and .375. and they seem reasonably reliable in .458 provided you are prepared to tolerate the awkwardness of the reload.

Fire away

You guys must be bored. This has been hashed and rehashed many many times through numerous posts and threads. Ain't changing anybody's mind.
Butch

When I was working for a gunsmith, the only Remington bolt handles I saw that broke off were on that butt ugly M788.
As far as the extractors go, I have four Remington rifles, three M700's and an M660. The M660 finally wore the extractor out in roughly 5,000 rounds, most of those round being fired at the range over a very long period of time. I had it replaced and it's still going strong. The new one will probably outlast me.
Paul B.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling.........

I stand by my well researched statement.

I fixed it.

Idiot you are just for saying what you did. If it is so dangerous as an idiot like you say than why do so many well respected smithes do the conversions. Or are you the true troll that everyone accurately acuses you of being.

You can stand by your statement, but your to lazy to prove it...or maybe you cant prove anything....I'm guessing the latter!

A sako extractor on a RH Remington is in the RH raceway. One of our infrequent members had one come down the RH raceway and out the loading port. He was lucky being a RH shooter in that it only blistered his face with powder residue. He was wearing shooting glasses. The sako extractor went through a sheet metal trim on his door on his rear porch. His girlfriend is left handed and shoots a lot. It may have blinded her or lodged in her brain. This ain't a BS story. I'm not gonna preach on it. Do as you wish.
Butch

I take it this was a case rupture that you're referring to ?

If they do the Sako conversion that removes them from the good gunsmiths list. It's very dangerous.

This same thing has happened many times to others.

You can do better than that. Funny though

Only problem I have had with a Remington extractor was with
a M722 in 222, wasnt a problem all the time and it was a pretty
accurate rifle so I lived with it.

I just finished reading my "Rifle" magazine and although most or all of the writers touted the effectiveness of the Mauser controlled round feeding (CRF) and extractor, I THINK Phil Shoemaker was the only one who specifically criticized rifles without a Mauser type extractor (Remington 700 in .17 Rem and or push feed Model 70-pgs 87 and 88). John Haviland, on the other hand, went out of his way to relate that the only rifle he'd had jam while hunting game (pg 61) was a Mauser. I think they both told it the way they saw it and we can take whatever lesson we want from their and our experiences.

do you think the M700 extractor/ejector caused that?

you would have had to pound M70 open too, given a similar situation.

You'll probably never hear that story repeated here though.

A Mauser can "jam" if the round jumps out of the feed ramp before the bolt has captured the round. Unless the extractor has been specifically modified to jump the cartridge rim it's a no go.

I've seen more CRFs fail to extract than I have Remington 700. In fact I've never seen a Remington extractor fail.

Anything can jam .....it's a percentage game.

I agree with Shoemaker..... since I can only carry one of the damn things at a time,it'll be a CRF.

Mauser or M70.....the rest be hanged

I like the noise they make...

But of course you agree with Shoemaker......his preference mirrors yours.

Yup!

Bob,
How true, there's something about that click - clack that just sounds cool.

Prwlr: "Snick/snick".....

Butch I'm not going to argue the point, I realize they aren't perfect,and I prefer to use a rem extractor, but there are alot of people runnin them with no issues, and some people shouldn't be allowed to reload either and more time than not the person reloading was pushing the limits when something bad happened!

There you go snickering again

Pulls in mature whitetails like a magnet...

Good "rattling" gun.

They come runnin'....sounds like antlers rattling...

Maybe you could tape a grunt tube to the stock and make it a package deal.

......only if it's blue.

Yes, this has been pounded to death already, but I'll add a few more comments:

I've fired a pile of rounds from Rem. 700's (and 722's and 721's), well over 100,000 and possibly twice that many. Some of the ammo was vastly overloaded, especially when I was younger and dumber. I've had to pound a few 700 bolt handles open, and none of them broke off, and the extractors always brought the round out of the chamber. Sometimes I had to pry the case out of the face of the bolt, but the case alwways came out. I have also never seen a 700's bolt handle come off or an extractor break.

Of course, this doesn't mean 700 bolt handles don't come off, or extractors break, but apparently it is a rare occurence.

When somebody has to pound a bolt-handle open, something else is wrong than the type of action or extractor. The things that can go wrong vary from basic maintenance to over-pressure ammo, and the ammo can be over-pressure from handloading or heat. A lot of factory ammo uses powders that are pretty heat-sensitive. But if the bolt handle has to be pounded open, and the bolt handle stays on and the case comes out of the chamber, I fail to see what is "wrong" with the action.

Also, if a bolt-action magazine fails to hold the ammo in place, then it's the fault of something other than the type of action.

I cannot comprehend how a 700's magazine is harder to re-stuff with cartridges than any other bolt action, since I have done it myself with a bunch of 700's over the years, sometimes in a hurry and under some stress. Again, if that happens then something basic is wrong with the cartridge/magazine match-up, not with the action itself. I have seen the same thing happen with a number of CRF actions over the years, some of them Mausers.

For three years I also helped run a practical-hunting course in Texas each winter. My specialty was the charging Cape buffalo target, which involved shooting up to three rounds at a target coming at the shooter in 6-7 seconds. I saw both push-feed and controlled-round feed rifles jammed frequently, almost always by short-stroking the bolt. (Yes, a CRF action will jam when short-stroked.)

Does all this mean I prefer a Remington 700 when hunting dangerous game? No, but I have used a 700 to do just that, putting two shots (both fatal) into a grizzly that was less than 75 yards away to start with. I didn't plan to take the 700 grizzly hunting, but was in Alaska to hunt black bears and the opportunity came up to hunt grizzly, through a cancelled hunt. I went ahead and dared the fates, and killed a good grizzly dead. But I knew the rifle well and had shot it a lot. It had never "sprayed" cartridges from the magazine, or anything else.

But that is the major point: If we're going to hunt dangerous game (as I will be doing next week, with two CRF rifles) we should damn well know that the rifle is going to work correctly, and the only way to do that is to shoot it a lot beforehand, in all sorts of ways, and to keep it clean and well-maintained.

Well there you have it. I like what that Barsness guy writes...............

RD - + 1, there's no substitute for personal experience.

Good post JB, and congrats on the Grizz - maybe that was your 9.3 B-S rifle.

Jim - I respect your opinion. Fact is - I am color blind, I see colors, but not all the same as others.

Point being, we all perceive differently.

My .02 is that the 700 is a design flaw in that -

1) Albeit rare, 700 handles do break - fall off, and those which NEVER have been 'beat on' etc. Mine was never beat on once, and had about 200 to no more than 300 rounds fired since leaving the factory.

2) A high volume mass production item like 700s - simply cannot be perfect in brazing - not when you have bean counters putting the squeeze on the assembly line.

3) I DO trust a custom mfg. of a 'CLONE' to do a much more attentive job in putting their actions together. One needs to simply handle a good custom action to witness the quality of workmanship and attention to detail.

On that note, when my 338-06 failed, I examined EVERY 700 in my possession. One - a BDL/SS in 338 WM had a large VOID of brazing material that SHOULD have been in place, but was not, as compared to all others - SO - back to Remington to get it re-done, PRIOR to ever firing it.

As I have posted before, it's rare, and yes a GOOD properly built and accurate reliable Remington - IS worthy of field use, yet personally 'I' will never risk using one again where should that hunt end due to my rifle action failing, I will wish I had brought a better engineered and built rifle.

It's possible some sort of 'stress test' could be used to 'weed out' prone to failure brazed handles, but then again, would one CREATE a pre-mature failure by embarking on said test - tis the question.

It's plausible one would have less to 'risk' using a 700 on an important hunt, if you had a PH behind you backing you up on DG, or if you could borrow a rifle in a pinch.

In the meantime, I always felt very confident in my one-shooter #1 Rugers - ejecting, extracting, etc. Never had a bolt handle fall off one or heard of one doing so - LOL.

Key to using a #1 - make sure the first shot is GTG.

As Butch says, the debate will go on

Maybe Larry can chime in - hey 'Boxer' you gonna give us your .02 ???

65BR,

I've generally found that MOST (not all) defects in manufacturing tend to fail relatively early in use, one reason I test scopes by putting them on a hard-kicking rifle (usually a light .338 Winchester Magnum) and firing it at least 40-50 times. That rifle has broken an awful lot of new and supposedly tough scopes.

Similarly, when testing any DG rifle I shoot it quite a bit (and the chosen load) in the conditions which it might be used in, whether real cold or real heat. And I slam-bang the action, not babying it at all, and use the safety a lot too.

Both heat and cold are one reason I tend to prefer heat-resistant powders these days, rather than taking pot-luck on whatever the factories decide to stuff inside. That said, I have tried to reproduce the sticky extraction many people have reported with factory .416 Remington ammo, especially when it first came out. I've tested both early and recent ammo at temps up to 110 degrees and could always open the bolt of my .416 Remington with one finger--though admittedly it was a well-maintained custom job, with perhaps a little smoother chamber than some factory rifles, since Charlie Sisk did the job.

But I never saw any indication of any real problem on the chronograph, either, which suggests that some of what I've heard from a few PH's about .416 Remingtons and hot-weather extraction problems might be due to a lack of rifle maintenance.

On the 'silver lining' side of things, the 700 design is a great reason to own more than one rifle. How can that be bad?

I am taking these two Remington 700's bear hunting this week. If I thought they were going to fail I have other rifles I could take instead. It's a non-issue with me.
whelennut (Model 700 Classic)

What is the dangerous part about this conversion? I have never had it done but know some that have and there has been no problems at all.

Just curious.

All extractors can fail. The Remington being a small piece of wire, almost, can for sure. AND unlike the Mauser action, where you can probably replace the extractor in a few minutes, if you have another extractor, you can't just replace the Remington one. Two years ago, I was about to leave on a hunting trip to Namibia. I was at the range shooting, and suddenly, the rifle would not extract. Had to push the case out with a ram rod. I borrowed a friends bolt (same caliber) and had a gunsmith check the headspace and used his bolt in my rifle, on the trip. when I got back, I sent my bolt back to Remington, and was told that though they were able to replace it this time, they don't make that extractor any longer (had to do with when the rifle was made, mine being made in the 60s), and the newer ones would NOT work in my bolt. I also had the extractor go on a 721 Remington, which was replaced with a Sako extractor, which btw, several gunsmiths endorsed, as there definitely are now no more extractors made for the 721. Even if you have one on hand and it's the correct one, is a lot more difficult to replace than a Mauser extractor. I'm not sure how the Sako extractor would weaken the Remington bolt or make it dangerous. Sounds like BS from someone who's heard it from someone, who..

There's a big difference between a military sniping team, which has the time, and personnel available to replace an extractor, or the whole bolt, if necessary, and you're being out in the middle of no where, hunting, and have one break. Do I worry myself about the extractor breaking on my 700? Not really. The two that have were 50-60 years old, and probably fatigued to some extent. If it does, however, you aren't going to be able to replace it easily, like you can, with a Mauser extractor.

Rem 700s can have an improperly adjusted extractor from the factory. Tune it right and it will drag the most stubborn of stuck cases from the chamber.

Some as they come from the factory are prone to slipping. One of the most important checks if you are buying a 700 is to check the extractor for flex.

The M-16 and Sako Extractor can work well and Dave Kiff has the HP White destructive testing data to prove such mods are every bit as safe as the factory if the chamber is set up right. Open the counter bore and bad things can happen with the modification.

No need for either in most cases but Remington will occasionally send one out that cannot be tuned and needs a fix. Having done a few I would guess 1 out of 5 needs an extractor tune and 1 out of 30 will need a Sako/ M-16 to be stone cold reliable.

RD: Well sure...me too.

Personally,I have never had a lick of problem(personally)with a Remington action, either feeding or functioning....but I have seen issues crop up with them,the same as I have with Mausers that were not properly tuned;and M70 Classics that had sloppy extractors fit to them,or would not close into battery whether feeding cartridges or dry running;or Mausers not properly adjusted,etc, etc.

So like I said,anything can fail,and what John says about proper tuning and maintenance applies equally to any rifle you put to a particular use,PF or CRF.

Discussions about which is "best" are a dead end with no resolution.....ever....because experiences are so varied,and if you see enough Remingtons crap (or Winchesters or Mausers)or if it never happened to "you",or never seen it happen,then the experience is outside our realm;if, on the other hand,if you see or experience a problem,it makes you think...

There isn't a rifle I pick up that I am not leary of until it is pretty thoroughly "proven",because I am mistrustful of mechanical things that do not work,or could break....the reason my 375H&H is at the smiths having a spare extractor fitted....this will go with my little "kit",along with the tools I have carried for 30+ years to do a quick repair to a M70 trigger...in that time I have had to use it once,and on someone else's rifle.

In evaluating this stuff, we have to remember that pro's like John and Phil Shoemaker are exposed to far more rifles, and see far more snafu's, than the average Joe...it's their job as writers and professional hunters.

It is not mine; my "job" is to go hunting,pay for my hunts, and be intimately familiar with what I am using,from rifle, to load, scope,bullet,etc........not to evaluate every rifle known to mankind to determine which is "best";so long as I know, based on my experiences,what has worked for me,and what I have found reliable, I am not interested in the nuances of other rifles except from an intellectual standpoint.

The last thing on my mind,on a hunt,is whether the rifle will "work" as it is supposed to....

Part of the problem, too, in evaluating these things,and seldom mentioned, is that not all CRF's are created equal....there are lots of actions out there called "CRF" that vary in small ways from the original Mauser design,with ill fitted extractors, rails set up in stamped magazine boxes instead of being machined into receivers,generic mag boxes not tuned to the cartridges or converted improperly to cartridges for which they were not intended (handle a M98 Argentine converted to 300 Win Mag by Tom Burgess, or equivilent,and compare it to (say)a M70 Classic) and you'll get my drift....it's like night and day.There are CRF actions that I wouldn't trust on a bet,and would take a Rem 700 over them any old day.

In theory , it should be impossible to jam a properly tuned CRF by short stroking,because if the bolt is not withdrawn far enough to kick out the empty cartridge, it is not far enough back to pick up the next round either....conversely,if it is far enough back to pick up the next round, the ejector should have kicked out the empty......so when I hear of this happening, my first thought is that the ejector was not "timed" correctly, or the magazine box was not properly fitted to the cartridge....and if you think all mag boxes are the same,and all CRF's are equal, we all have another thing coming...the very reason why, in building my 7mm Mashburn, I used a Darcy Echols magazine box and follower, designed specifically for belted cases...it was an expensive option, but the rifle functions without a hitch,so was worth it.

So, when these discussions come up, I always cock a skeptical eyebrow about "which CRF or PF action",tuned up by whom, made buy whom,and operated by whom, under what conditions (dirty, clean,well maintained and properly tuned), etc.

Generic answers and lumping into general categories is a mindless brain twister...

Just my thoughts on the matter...

You may want to check this out with Bob Hart. Not only is he considered one of the premier gunsmiths in the country, he positively endorses the Sako extractor mod and does a ton of them.

JB, thanks for the post/reply - good to know.

On extractors, one bad experience that stands out in MY experience, was using a 221 FB that was built by SG&Y/Speedy G.

The rifle was 2nd hand, but as new, little wear shown on bolt, put together w/an ADL Matte 223 action.

The rifle was not extracting rounds 100%...every so often after firing I would pull the bolt back, and the case never came w/it. At the end of a range session, I had a round hung up in the chamber - and my usual MO is to stick my finger up in the action on a 308 or similar diameter chamber and check it before closing the bolt and dropping firing pin tension.

Needless to say, I racked the bolt a few times, ASSUMED it was empty - pointed the rifle up and 'LIVE fired' what I thought was going to be a 'DRY fire'....so the result was a hole in the tin roof at the range. I was the only person there that day, but it darned sure got my attention, even in the dinky little 221 Fireball. I should have visually inspected the chamber before dropping the pin but at least I used 'muzzle control.'

Never did source the issue, had wondered if the shorter FB round was not for some compatible w/the 223 action but I cannot understand why it would matter if the head diamter was the same. Using RP brass of course, proper headstamp.

Anyone have a clue what happened there, or just a case where the extractor needed replaced?

They blow out. That cut even when done "right" greatly weakens the action. You're courting disaster if you have it done. A good gunsmith won't do it.

That makes him a bad gunsmith.

Not to mention practically the entire African Professional Hunter community who like Phil have to deal with dangerous game for a living. jorge

Well there you have it! Bob Hart, ak Robert W Hart & Son, builder of countless competition winning custom rifles and one of the premier gunsmiths in this country, if not the world, is a bad gunsmith and obviously knows nothing of Sako extractor modifications, of which he has done thousands. Folks - You heard it here first!! Swampy has spoken!

Swampy has been brain washed!

Swampy did you know driving a car can be dangerous?

Just like I posted earlier, nobody gonna change their mind. You might as well close the thread as the post get more ridiculous.
Butch

I thought most of those guys carried double rifles.

They sure don't RD. In fact they are in the minority and a few carry PF bolts, just not 700s, at least I've never seen or heard of one that does but I'm sure there are. Anyhow, that article is a pretty good read.

There are guys who shoot Model 700's at the National Championships at Camp Perry Ohio. There is a lot at stake there
(not your life obviously) and they wouldn't shot them unless they were confident that they would function properly in the rapid fire stages.
whelennut

I wouldn't doubt that the original owner tried to make a 223 out of the 221 Fire Ball and had a overload event that damaged the extractor. Upon learning the 221 FB wasn't a 223 he tripped the rifle.

Being second hand you never know.

Could of been defective from the factory. Not an issue I've heard of from 221 FB owners or the one I have.

Jorge,

I've known at least three African PH's who carry PF rifles: Finn Aagaard (PF M70 .458, one of his two four-five-eights), Ross Seyfried (700 .416 Remington), and another guy none of you have ever hard of who used a Weatherby Mark V .378 in Tanzania.

That said, most of the PH's I know won't even use a 700 for plains game, mostly because Remington has never tried very hard to sell them over there--and they would be very expensive. Most of the South African PH's I know buy used rifles, because that's what they can afford.

Double rifles are becoming fairly common again, partly because some clients will give one away as a tip for a big-dollar dangerous game hunt. I know one Zim PH who has TWO .470 NE doubles, and that's how he got both of 'em.

John Sharp, the PH I hunt with carries a PF Mod 70 and a Rigby Double 470. A few others I know also carry 460 Weatherbys. Still, the article I quoted written by Don Heath is pretty much the conventinal wisdom of the PH community as a whole.

your an idiot azzhole

FVA, no doubt, hard to say, could not tell anything damaged, but suffice to say, the rifle was not made in the factory for 221, so not sure if there are any changes for a FB vs. 223 re: extractor specs.

Re: M70 PFs - never had a bobble out of the 2 7/08s I ran, nor a CRF ss/fwt in 6.5x55. Did have a Coyote in 223 that shot horrible - 2-3moa, had defective lands 'chatter marks or something' about 3" from muzzle and I elected to trade it off in lieu of waiting for Win to fix it.

I guess my patience has grown thin w/rifles that are not built/finished properly, don't shoot reliably and accurately from the factory, no matter brand name.

There is one sure way to cause a CRF Mauser to fail.

Have someone come up while you are shooting and want to try your rifle. Hand him the rifle and a cartridge, and this person, used to PF rifles, drops the cartridge into the chamber and attemps to close the bolt, all the while you are yelling, 'don't do that, don't do that.'

Your M98 is locked up but good. Ever try to find a perfectly straight stick in 7 MM caliber?

Could a mistake like this be blamed on PF, because the shooter, having only used PF rifles, did not know about CRF?

In two military K-98�s my father brought back from Germany after WWII the follower blocked the bolt from moving forward. I always thought that was a neat idea � it told you very tacitly that your magazine was empty and it almost forced you to load a round(s) into the magazine to feed them. Not that you couldn�t stick a cartridge halfway in the chamber and use your thumb to push the follower down and override this feature if you were deliberately trying to jam it, but it was just one more feature that shows how Herr Mauser�s child was designed as a completely integrated system.

With a jam such as you are describing, squeezing the spring part of the extractor against the bolt body with the off hand and closing the bolt with the other hand will allow the claw to snap over the rim on some Mausers. Works on all of my Mausers but I suspect that there are some that this technique will not work.

A few people remember using a nickel in a 1917 and also sometimes pushing the back of a Mauser style extractor behind the retainer to spring it over a cartridge rim. There are enough Mauser style extractors that will spring to encourage what are perhaps bad habits.

I have no issues with a tested and examined Remington but I do very much suspect the Remington would be more vulnerable to snow and ice in the action than a Mauser?

Yup. The snap over trick works well.

You can also push in on the extractor after firing and pull the bolt back leaving the fired round in the chamber. This causes a nice jam in a hunting situation when you are more concerned about saving your precious Lapua 9.3X62 brass (and adrenaline has caused superhuman strength and five thumbs on each hand) than ensuring the second round chambers! Luckily a follow-up wasn't needed

I am convinced "Mr." Murphy is actually a an old maid and goes by Ms.

You can also press on the front end of a Mauser extractor to get a stuck case out of the chamber. (Of course, this means that sometimes empty cases stick in Mauser chambers--which has been known to happen.)

I bevel the front edge of all my Mauser extractors so they'll hop over the cartridge rim, just like in the Model 70 Winchester, allowing a cartridge to be loaded into the chamber without having to push it down into the magazine.

It sounds like the rifle caught something like "buck fever" in the presence of dangerous game, it functioned OK before and after the encounter, amazing things can happen.

I've owned 2 700s. Still have one. The extractor broke on it (6mm). Mark Penrod had done the action/barrel work. These were starting loads and the empty fell out of the chamber when I pulled the bolt back and elevated the muzzle. Mark replaced the extractor.

It does happen. We've been over this before and I've shared this story before. The funny part is all the 700 fans who say this never happens never have a good response.

I'm also a 700 fan, but this is a coyote rifle. If it fails on a coyote, oh well. On big game hunts I use either a customized FN or 70.

My new 700's extractor has never worked from the beginning. I called Rem service twice and am still waiting (3 weeks now) for the new extractor they are sending. I am sure the new one will work fine but I wonder what blind, 125 YO [bleep] firearms companies hire for quality control. 4 of my last 5 purchases have had issues: Rem 870 Express (bad chamber), Rem 700 (extractor), Marlin 1894 (canted front sight), Savage 220F (failure to fire - firing pin extrusion). My SC Model 70 is a gem!

There you have it!

We have a concensus - Everyone has different experiences and opinions

I have and have used many Remingtons. Have had Sako's, Winchester and other push feed rifles (bolt) Really have never had an issue with any of them. I also have a few Mauser 98 and the moderen updates. Never have an issue with either. Looking at the design and possible issues, I am surprised that the Remington extractor works as well as it does. If I had to pick a go to rifle it would be a Mauser 98. One with a stuck shell ripped the rim off the brass. Got the shell out and it was still working fine. Not sure the Remington extractor is as long lived. Bottom line take care of the rifle it will take care of you.

Like I said, it ain't gonna end here with people agreeing and it didn't when it was brought up many many times in the past.
Butch

If there was a glaring inadequacy with the Remington extractor, I�d think after 40+ years, they would have picked up on that by now. It works, works well. The only time you�re likely to have problems with it is with heavy use, and poor maintenance. I�ve noticed that the 700 extractor is rather sharp, and it will shave off itty-bitt bits of brass with use. If you shoot a lot, and don�t clean your bolt head, and under the extractor, and have a dirty chamber; you can legitimately run into some issues.

So, at best, the Remington extractor doesn�t make for a great choice for a bolt action battle rifle; but it was never intended to be that. With reasonable to poor maintenance, you should never have problems. With horrible to no maintenance, then you can expect problems.

We certainly hear of problems with the 700 for PH�s. Again, I tend to think that a PH�s gun will get very heavy use and very little maintenance. As for the bolt handle issue, if it�s going to keep you up at night, a tack weld on two sides would make that problem permanently a non-issue.

I�m not sure I�d choose one if I were a PH, but there are those who have and have had no issues at all (Seyfried comes to mind); but of course, we only hear of those who have. I wonder how many issues there are with other types of bolt guns that we never hear about?

One thing I WOULDN�T want in a dangerous game rifle is a uber-tight chamber on a custom barrel. In fact, I�d want my chamber just a smidge oversized; that system worked very well for the Brits on their military rifles, so I think I�d tend to emulate their success. As a dangerous game rifle, I always thought it would be interesting to build up a DGR on a late model Ross in .416 Rigby; always liked the Ross.

Good post...!

Kevin, here is the link, all rifles are mentioned by the PHs with the 700 at the bottom of same:
PH RESULTS

In the early days of the internet, on a USENET bulletin board(remember those?) Gail McMillan posted of a test he either observed are carried out where by a steel rod machined to mimic a case head on both ends was fasten to a Pre 64 style model 70 action on one end and a model 700 on the other. One of the action was rigidly mounted to a beam and the other mounted on a carriage of sorts that was hooked to a hydraulic cylinder. The cylinder was activated and the force actually stretched the rod before an extractor failed. Ultimately the model 70 extractor gave way before the model 700. I could be a little off on this story slightly as its been years since I read it, but the crux of it is correct.
FWIW My dad did an immense amount of African hunting in multiple countries during the mid 80's-mid90's. I could give you his total head of game shot on those trips, but would be called a liar, so I wont. He carried two heavy rifles. One Rem 700 458 and one Rem 700 375. I believe both had Brown or H&S stocks and that was it. The were so worn from use that neither has any finish on the barrel and when I asked him if he had one ever goof up he said never. He also said that anyone that didn't think the .458 was a good stopper was out of their mind, but that's best left for a different post.

B: I recall that test although was unaware it showed up on the Internet....it is a good deal older than that I believe.

I remember not being too surprised at the results,but also remember thinking that I had never seen a Rem 700 extractor break....those very few times I had seen a problem, the extractor had torn through the case rim.

Now I have seen PF M70's and Savage 110 extractors break...they are pretty similar in the way they work.

Bob, I seem to remember the test had something to do with an Army contract for sniper rifles during the Vietnam war, but I could be off base.

B: Could be....can't recall the context,but do recall that test.

BTW, I have some Rem 700's, but am a Win model 70 guy at heart. The one thing I detest about the 700 is the ejector. It simply doesn't work as well as a model 70 or Mauser IMO and I have had them fail after being fouled with brass shavings.

Jim Carmichel talks of seeing this test done, 700 vs. 98. The 98 was the first to give way. The only issue he had was if the rod had been bronze, instead of steel, the 700 would have been the first to rip through the rim. Either way, he allowed the 700 extractor was plenty strong. Him personally never having an issue with one.

I wonder if they had pulled the bolts apart by holding them at the bolt handles which would have given way first?

The Remington extractor, the Mauser (or M70 extractor) or the Remington bolt handle...?

if there was no barrels in the actions, the bolt handles would be the 'stop' to keep the bolts from getting pulled out of the actions.

Just what does "A piss poor dangerous rifle" mean?

See the link I posted. Synonymous with 700s

pretty much every time i set foot out of the truck, i'm on griz turf, and i travel alone on foot for miles in griz infested backcountry with whatever rifle is handy that day. some days it's a M700 and i don't sweat it. my biggest blackie, a 450 pounder fell to a push feed Winchester Ranger in .243 at about 10 feet.

Of course, Winchester post-64 rifles of both push and controlled feed also lose their bolt handles from time to time as well. Is no one concerned about that?

The only poor feeding rifle which I've had was a controlled feed 223. It was lucky to get the cartridge all the way to the chamber, on its good days. Obviously, it wasn't tuned correctly, but I've never had a problem with a Remington.

Just my .02...I read a lot here but don't post much. Anyway, I worked my way through high school and college in the late '70's and '80's working for a pretty well-known gunshop and parts distributor in California (sorry). I didn't and don't call my self a gunsmith because our machinest did rebarreling and trickier parts manufacturing, I just did general repairs. We were a warranty station for about nine companies, including Remington,Colt, Browning, USRA, Marlin, Ithaca, Charter (I think)and 1-2 others. Anyway, as I recall, Remington changed the design of their extactors at least three times...sometimes they needed a little tiny rivit to hold them in, other designs were spring-fit. We replaced extractors on 700's, 760's, 742's pretty regularly, probably one at least monthly. In the seven years, I distinctly recall having to send two new 700's back for their bolt handles coming off.

The problem wasn't so much the tensile strangth of the extractor themselves, it was that they would come out of the bolt face. Yeah, I know that's supposed to be impossible, and yeah, I know the harder you pull on a case, the tighter the extractor is supposed to expand and hold in the bolt face, but it obviously didn't always work. Sort of like the Sako scope rings...why some of those would immediately come off under recoil, I dunno.

No doubt if it can break, it will, and I'm sure the repair departments of every manufacturer stays busy. But, the 700 bolts handles definitely can and do come off occasionally.

I have a model 700 from the early 1980s. Wondering if I should have a backup extractor on hand. I am not expecting it to break but what does it take to replace one (tools)?

PAndy I don't know what tools it takes for a Rem700..

A M70 or Mauser is pretty easy.

Remington has a long going problem with 223 bolt face extractors. They know its a problem and have chosen to ignore it rather than correct it.
I bought a nib 700 XCR compact tactical, from the box it would not chamber a round. Remove bolt, clip a round and feed it manually and it would feed like a dream. Called them up and they sent me a new one, well guess what? Same [bleep] problem......
Ended up fixing it myself with a Dremel .
What pissed me off was they played completely dumb but do a quick google search on Remington extractor problems.

I find it interesting that something that has been said to me many times by bench rest shooters and gunsmiths is never mentioned here in the US.

That being that it is not uncommon to see extractors fall out in 2 pieces when being removed which was a common practice when Sako extractors were substituted.

The interesting aspect being that it was surmised that these extractors actually broke during original fitting with the lock pin holdig the two parts together.

Any 'smiths note that here?

John

I'm a few posts late but here's Jim Carmiacheals narrative of the extractor test from his "Book of the Rifle":

"Let�s look at extractors another way. When a traditional Mauser-type extractor lets go and fails to pull a stuck case out of the chamber, it�s usually because it springs outward and slips over the case rim. Of course, this seldom happens, but I�ve experienced it several times with virtually every existing action type having an external leaf-type extractor. Fortunately, this never happened at a critical time. It always occurred when I had faulty ammo or when I was fooling around with some overly hot handloads at the test bench. By comparision, the Remington 700 extractor and similar systems can�t easily override the cartridge rim. Being supported by the steel wall formed by the countersink, it can�t spring away from the case. The Remington extractor doesn�t need to be any stronger because it is supported by the tremendous strength of the bolt itself. Because the extractor can�t back over the case rim, it has no choice but to hang on.
Tiring of all the amateur complaints they were getting about their miniature extractor, some engineers at Remington Arms concocted an empirical tug-of-war test between a standard Model 98 Mauser extractor and their Model 700. A steel rod was lathe-turned to cartridge diameter, with rims turned on each end. These rims were fitted into each bolt under the extractor in the way a cartridge rim fits. The bolts were fixtured into a giant laboratory instrument used to measure tensile strength. In a simple tug of war, the machine ran the pressure on each extractor up to hundreds and then thousands of pounds. Even the steel rod connecting the two extractor systems began to stretch, but then the Mauser extractor let go. The Remington extractor was victorious.
I didn�t witness the test, but I did see movies of the event, and it was certainly impressive. While it left no doubt about the strength of the Remington system, the test may have been somewhat misleading. Had a brass rather than a steel rod connected the two bolts, the softer brass rim probably would have been torn away. Since the Remington extractor claw grasps less brass than the Mauser system, the rim in the Remington bolt might have failed first. In any event, there is no reason to doubt the strength of the Remington system. My own experience with Remington rifles bears this out because I�ve never had a failure. I have, however, had cases stuck so tight that I couldn�t open the bolt; even after pounding on the bolt handle, the extractor did not let go."

excellent post Rogue1.

Might that have something to do with Remingtons outselling Winchesters by at least 100 to 1 ?

kenjs1....

I'm guessing your opinion will not be universally held.

I admire Carmichaels objectivity....that and his great experience,his technical knowledge, make him one of our best gunwriters.

I note in passing that his 4 favorite hunting rifles(from what his writings seem to indicate)were/are a 280 Remington built on a pre 64 M70 built by Clayton Nelson( rifle retired after many worldwide hunts),a 458 Win Mag he built himself on a Mauser 98, a David Miller 338 on a Mauser action, and a 7x57 on a Mauser 98 built by Al Biesen, if memory serves.Things may have changed...I don't know....

What gunwriters "say",and what they "do",are sometimes completely different things.

Just an observation...

Not to mention REAL observations made by men whose lives depend on their rifles and with no commercial endorsements to protect. The article that I posted a link to is about as close to ground truth as it gets. Still, people read what they want and believe what they want, just as long as it agrees with their pre-conceived notions. Facts just get in the way of that practice.

I'm gonna go out on a limb on this one and guess that the majority of folks the majority of time don't hunt dangerous game with a PH in Zimbabwe. I'm also gonna guess the majority of guys don't hunt dangerous game on a regular basis in the states.

I'm certain if all my hunts were paid hunts I'd make damn sure to use a CF so as to impress my third world PH.

Class warfare notwithstanding, I insult them by using PF Weatherbys and I'll be on the other limb and say again the PH that wrote that article didn't need to impress anybody but instead make other PHs wary of using product ill prepared for the job..

This thread reminds me again why I come here,some very bright and funny people who can even beat a dead horse in worthwhile fashion.

+1 Ruraldoc

Not sure if it's a favorite, but I saw him write that he retired his original .280 for a NULA .280 years ago. Not a 700, but a dreaded PF...

Lou

you mean men like U.S. military snipers? and most of the U.S. LEO snipers?



i'll give you that one...

Lou you could be right about the NULA......I have no idea.

Maybe he wanted a lighter rifle! Like all of us,he ain't as young as he used to be....

Had a problem with the extractor on my 700, which made it extremely hard to close the bolt on a loaded factory, handload, or even once-fired case. Cycled it enough times to wear it down and help resolve that issue though.

Jorge, a brief overview of the article in question goes something like this: Weatherby's Mark v's suck,Remington 700's suck, Rugers suck, pre 64 Winchester's suck, most mausers suck, old BRNO's that are no longer made are good and Borwning A bolts are OK, but its too early to tell for certain.
I have know two PH's via my dad, and lived with one in Durban, SA for almost two months. IME they certainly have some weird ideas. Like one that advocated using a 30-06 with 220gr RN bullets downloaded to 2300fps for plains game. Point being these guys are hunters and not gun nuts. Many have limited knowledge of ballistics and gun mechanics and are by nature very hard on equipment. I wouldnt have any problem taking a 700 to Africa as my dad did. Just as you didn't have a problem taking your Mark V, which is a big POS,lol.

There is ZERO correlation between snipers and Dangerous Game hunting. Zero. But why continue to flog the messenger? did you read the article I posted?

Vlaid points you make but I think a bit of a broad-brushed assessment. The issue with Weatherbys was the hot loads and if I remember correctly, some of the initial German made ones had a safety problem (you know almost like the one Remington's been sued over a bunch of times). The author whilst mentioning issues with indeed all rifles (I didnt see any A bolts in there?) he specifically singled out Remingtons. And yes a LOT of PHs are still living in the past when it comes to bullet and velocity and that is because they still judge everything by old cup and core bullets that broke up and failed to penetrate, that is why the over reliance on solids.

That is changing. Today, you'd be hard pressed to find a PH recommending solids for anything except elephant, rhino and hippo on land.

No game is dangerous if shot properly, and that's more likely to happen with a Remington.

Bullsh-t X 2 on that one Swampy.

Gunner

I'd say that both a DG rifle and a Sniper's rifle need to be accurate and reliable. They at least have those two attributes in common

you don't think lives may be saved or lost depending on the function of a sniper's rifle? you don't think they demand 100% out of their weapons? you don't think they cycle round in as soon as they make a shot?

the one difference is the mil/LEO boys undoubtedly take better care of their guns and they don't need to impress the masses.

your rabid attacks on the 700 are almost as laughable as Swampy's defense of them. sure, i have Mausers, M70s, Rugers, a Springfield, ect.. but i'll be leaving in the morning for a solo backpack hunt in an area lousy with griz and i'll be carrying a M700, despite the third world wisdom.

rabid? you mean like your defense of same comparing apples and oranges? Sniping and DG hunting are two entirely different issues and if you can't see the differences, well we have a fundamental difference of opinion. But please do direct me towards a "rabid" post, unless you consider a link to an article rabid, oh wait apparently you do, given the "third world wisdom" comment. I have no issues with PFs, none, but the facts on the flimsy construct of 700 extractors is there. Good luck on your hunt/

Bwalker�

Now that you have pointed out that Mr. Heath not only trashed the 700, but all things American, I�ll pass on an �evaluation� of Mr. Heath.

I have read this article before and I recall some print commentary on it by someone who knows Mr. Heath. In said commentary, he is described as being notoriously anti-American, and I think I remember not just in his gun views. Unfortunately, I do not recall the name of the commentator but he called bias/prejudice on Mr. Heath. That seems reasonable to me, especially when the tone was set at opening with the Greener quote:

"In no country are better sportsmen to be found than in the United States of America, nor does any country posses keener buyers or better men of business, yet in no country is so much worthless rubbish of the (mass production) gun-factories offered for sale. The Boers are a race of sportsmen, but it is of no use to offer them rubbish at any price, and the author can hardly believe that the astute American will sacrifice everything to cheapness". That fortnight in the Zambezi valley showed that not a lot has changed in the last 90 years except that nasty rather than purely cheap describes most of America's offerings in the dangerous rifle field.�

I pose the question - how do the alleged results in this screed square with the reports read in these pages and others, of Americans venturing forth to the Dark Continent carrying their cheap American DG guns, 700�s included?

I've met Mr Heath a couple of times and if he was {sic} notoriously anti-American, he did not appear that way to me. I'll tell you what he is not ashamed of showing his outward disdain for our Foreign Policy regarding the former Rhodesia and much of his vitriol is aimed at of course Jimmy Carter and his UN ambassador Andrew Young. His article was indeed very critical of mass produced rifles and he cautions at venturing forth in DG country with an untested rifle and that is his intent. Still, unless he is just lying, the issue of the 700 extractor is common knowledge is it not?

Sure there are differing opinions but it is hard to argue against scientific testing from a respected source. The fact he may get paid didn't seem to lesson the quality of his study in my book. Regardless of opinion your post is a great addition to this thread.

Ross Seyfried used a lightweight M-700 in 416 toward the end of his PH career in Africa without a problem
Sam action that most Military Sniper rifles are based on, and they hunt the most "dangerous game in the world

The problem is"mass produced" rifles are not always in perfect spec and therefore do not perform optimally.

exactly

jorge1:

Your experience certainly opens the possibility that Mr. Heath harbors some anti-American sentiment but then he may have just been making the correct assessment of Jimmah Cahtah and the UN.

I do wish I could recall the author of the Heath critique but it just won�t come to me. If I could, you�d probably know the name. Shoot�.., you might even know the guy.

As to the Remington extractor and common knowledge, It�s obvious that different actions have different strengths and weaknesses. However my subjective impression is that the most common knock on the Remington is the jam that results from short-stroking, not broken extractors. Accusations of this �problem� are usually made of course, while ignoring the FUBAR that can result from short-stroking other actions.

I digress a bit here from the original 700 extractor topic, but to Mr. Heath�s assertion - conventional wisdom (common knowledge?) has it that the bolt rifle (CRF action?) is popular in Africa because of its design features and its effectiveness. The bolt rifle became popular in Africa because it was cheap!

Bottom line is give me a Remington to hunt ANYTHING and I'd do it without skipping a beat. I prefer other brands based on form, fit & function but that's just me. Check out my latest toy on the African thread

Well........yeah....you might say "cheaper"..... than a double, which is true of course....Let's just say the bolt was more "economical and affordable" by earlier settlers.

But it also clearly worked well, cause if it didn't, there'd have been a lot of Boers knocked flatter than road kill, I suspect.

BobinNH...

You are correct on all points. I wondered if I'd get called on saying cheap but I just had to take the shot.

And now.... Back to lurking!!!

All I know is I have fired several thousand rounds thru various 700's over the years with out a hitch. I have seen one failure to extract in the field in my years fooling around with guns and that was with a sporterized mauser that jumped the rim.It belonged to an acquaintance that was on a bear hunt in Canada. Of course he had no cleaning rod with him. It was bit-- getting the case out after that but I finally managed to get him back into service. Do I condemn all claw extractors? No but I am not as enamored of them as most as I find CRF to be more trouble than they are worth and a remedy for a problem I don't have and probably will never see. I have a couple but I don't chase sporting rifles because they are CRF. A 700 extractor is OK by me.

I have had 4 extractors fail. The first one was a Husqvarna. The whole front portion of the extractor broke off (the part that engages the case rim). This actually happened twice with the same rifle. It is a CFR Mauser type extractor. Oh no, a CFR failed, not once, but twice!~

The second one was a late model 70 in stainless steel .338 Win mag. The load was a bit robust (not my load) and the extractor was bent out away from the case rim on firing. On model 70's if the extractor groove is expanded, due to an overload, the extractor is pushed out of the extractor groove. Not a good design, since there is nothing holding the extractor in the extractor groove, but the "spring" of the long extractor. At least in a Mauser, the front part of the extractor is held by a machined groove. The model 70 extractor is a weak piece of flimsy steel, in my opinion.

On a 700, this could not have happened and the brass case around the rim would flow tightly around the extractor. The case would come out...period.

The fourth experience was again, a model 70 in .30-06. Trophy bull moose standing in front of me and the bolt won't open after the first shot. The extractor had bound up and wouldn't let go. This was not a hot load, but a basic factory load. After a bunch of fiddling around, the spent case came out and the bull was dead. I had the silly model 70 extractor bind up several more times and fail to extract. Several smiths looked at it and couldn't figure it out. So much for the hype on model 70's and it went down the road. It did feed nice though and I killed a lot of critters with it. I just didn't trust it.

I have had three overloaded rounds in model 700's. The bolts were frozen closed and nothing short of beating on them with a 2x4 would free them, which worked. I actually tore off the whole bolt nose trying to get the spent/melted case out from under the extractor on the .22-250. The extractor held and I had Remington replace the bolt at my expense.

I had two other overloads in the same .22-250, both times, the case rim was completely ripped off. Remington extractors are extremely stout and durable. I had a fly die in my powder measure and it threw 4 hot loads, which I discovered after pulling and measuring 200 loaded rounds.

I hear all the hype about Model 70's and CRF's in Africa, but in reality, are they any better???? Me thinks not. Model 700's feed upside down, sideways, fast slow, doesn't matter. Both can be short stroked and jammed. To say one is better than another is strictly opinion, just like Ford and Chevy. I will take a Toyota 10-1 any day:D Flinch

Perfect example of why I don't fire other peoples' handloads.

Flinch, how does a dead fly in your powder measure make it throw hot loads? I would have thought the space occupied by the fly would cause it to throw lighter loads.

I don't know the how, but I know it can happen. I suspect it can cause powder to hang-up/build up, and then fall arbitrarily. I also know a fly in a case can cause trouble with visual inspections of charged cases. Empty cases in loading blocks and open powder measures can be bad juju.

Flinch is right,and a M70 extractor is dependant on the spring steel of the extractor to hold it in place,while the undercut groove and tongue of a Mauser theoretically prevent the extractor from backing off the rim of the case.

...and I will bet a buck that Flinch's 338 was a Classic with an ill fitting MIM extractor,which will not spring back(the reason many get changed out for spring steel);the 30/06 may also have been a Classic from the factory as well...he doesn't say.

Any comparison between a M70 Classic as many of them (not all) came out of the factory,and a "good" CRF action, is laughable....

As is the notion that a Rem 700 extractor is the last word in that department...Just 3 years ago, I watched my buddie's rifle leave a fired case in the chamber during an episode with a 32" mule deer....not the first time I've seen it.....so.....

This is what happens when ill functioning rifles are compared with ill functioning rifles.....

I can't speak to what happens with overloads...i have blown two primers in my life;one with a M70 Classic 338...the case came out fine....with a big hole in the case.

Who knows?

I didn't shoot the other guys loads, he did. I was just a witness to the bent extractor.

All extractors fail, all rifles fail. I don't care what brand they are. Some are definitely better than others. I have only had the 3 overloads in my life as well, all the same rifle, all the same damnn fly...lol.

The model 70's that failed were all classics. They fed and functioned great, most of the time .

The fly blocked the powder a little on one load, then the next would have 2 grains more, which is huge in a small case. I think the fly allowed the powder (H4895) to "trickle" into the powder measure slowly, thus allowing the slight increase in variation, kind of like jiggling a case to settle the powder. I know it sounds strange, but that fly definitely was in the ointment. I wouldn't have believed it either, if I hadn't seen it and done it personally. I always check my powder measure now. Flinch

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't calling you a liar or anything. I would only do that behind your back.

Well yeah, that's just common decency