"Proper length of pull is critical for optimal offhand shooting. It should be about an inch less than the distance from the inside crook of the elbow on your shooting arm to the first joint of your trigger finger." This distance for me is 14& 1/8s inches... has anyone ever set up a rifle with that much LOP?

Yes, mine is 15 1/4 inches. I have three rifles at that length.

Yes, an FAL has about a 14in LOP. That is why I sold one and ordered a Para FAL so I could shorten the damn stock.

Jeff Cooper was over 6ft and liked a 12 3/4in LOP. He could hit rising clay targets with a 308.

WHAT?? I just measured mine for S&G's, 16 1/2" Nobody has anything close to that.. Perhaps I measured wrong. I took the crook of the elbow as the fold in my arm at the elbow when bent 90 degrees to my body. The first joint as the one nearest to my trigger finger pad. I will admit that I have Gorilla arms, very long and long fingers etc. But whoo 16 1/2" - 1" 15 1/2"..

Interesting topic. My buddy is 6 ft 5 with a girafe neck and gorilla arms. The Weatehrby Vanguard is as close as a good fit as we could find in a mass produced rifle. The current LOP on the rifle is almost 13.75". When he holds it in the crook of his arm as explained above, it is about 2" short.

My rifles are not an inch short of the crook but closer to 1/2-3/4". My LOP is 12 3/8 with hunting attire.

Ahh, bwinters actually scored the "X". If one lives and hunts in the Northern climes, it would be a good move to fit your rifle WITH your standard hunting coat etc. ON! Saves a passle of PITA.

It also depends a lot on how you shoot. Do you crawl the stock? Do you place the butt in your shoulder pocket or out on the shoulder/top of arm? Do you have a long neck? Do you shoot prone/sitting/offhsnd, etc. Lots and lots of variables to take into account.

I'm 6'-4" with gorilla arms and shoot about 14 1/4" the most consistently with heavy clothes on and add about an inch without the heavy clothes for both shotgunning and rifle.

I'm 6'3, with a 37 inch sleeve. Long neck. Worst of all a stock crawler. At 53 years of age, I've at last realized that I need at least 13 3/4 LOP for anything past .308 in recoil. 14 inches is even better.

My favorite length for bolt action, scoped riflesis 14" on my .338 WM. I have 16" on my Shiloh Sharps and that was only because I plan on using it for hunting, other wise 17" actually fits better.

When will people learn.Length of your arm or placement of elbow, etc.has nothing to do with corect LOP. Correct length for you is that when mounted, the firearm should be such that your thumb when overlayed on the wrist or neck of the stock should be about 1-1&1/2" away from your nose. Thne it will depend on how much clothing you have one.

Example.That dove shooting shotgun that is used in early Sept will probaly need more LOP than the elk rifle you use in late Oct, early Nov.

Spend a few dollars and buy some educationon the proper way to fit a stock. Best $30 you will ever spend.

Yep, the old elbow trick is pretty much worthless.

There are some other rules-of-thumb that will get you closer. One is to add or subtract 1/8" of LOP to 13-1/2" for each inch the shooter is over or under 5'10". A 5'4" shooter would thus need about a 12-3/4" LOP, and a 6'4" shooter a 14-1/4" LOP.

This will generally be pretty close, but might need to be adjusted a little for other stuff, such as neck and arm length, shooting style, normal amount of clothing, etc.

I just remeasured using the "elbow trick", and got 14 and 1/4". Using JB's method (I am 6'3") I get 13.5" + 1/8" x 5 = 14&1/8"... the same as my original post...

Shucks, what do I do with these factory stocks that are 13&3/8" to 13.5"???

JOC always said people want their rifle stocks too long and their shotgun stocks too short...

As Saddlesore pointed out the arm length has nothing to do with the right LOP. Rilfe and shotgun fit are two different beasts, too.

It's always easier to shoot accurately with a stock that is slightly too short than one that is too long...

So let me ask you guys this: On a M700, from the center of the rear screw hole to the back of the pad, what length are you running?

Thanks,
Casey

Until that scope comes back and smacks you between the eyes.

Like I said, slightly too short, is better than slightly too long

A lot too short or a lot too long will still screw you up pretty good.

when dressed in a t-shirt, the thumb of my trigger hand is about 3/4" away from my nose... when holding the rifle as if i were shooting offhand... this being an M700.

I will ASSUME that to measure LOP one goes from the stock to the trigger. Seems most of mine are a bit short. Suppose I could add a recoil pad as see if things really do get better. Never really had any issues except for shotguns, but then I'm kinda screwed anyway as I am left eye dominant and right handed. Never did learn to shot left handed.

LOP is measured from the inside curve of the trigger to the back of the pad parallel to the bore...

According to Wesbrook, and he knows a thing of two about stocks: To mearsure the shooter. Grasp a rifle by the pistol grip. Measure from the center of the trigger's curve to the inside bend of ones 90 degree elbow. Go a little longer for big boomers in case one is a stock crawler.

On a firearm - front of trigger bend to rear center of butte plate or recoil pad. I measure 14" and that's what I build my stocks to. When I die, someone is welcome to cut them down.

Then there is drop at heel and comb, cast off, pitch, and toe out. A well fitted stock is a joy to handle and I wish I had taken up carving about 30 years ago. Working up a 6.5 x 55 right now, and might have it picture ready in a month of two. The finsh probably won't be done till around August.

If Wesbrook says that he is dead wrong, period. It has been kicked around as a rule of thumb for years and is a long way from accurate in a large percentage of folks. In my case at 6'4" with nearly 7' of wingspan tip to tip and narrowish shoulders. It reads over 16" on the arm. 14" is what I like for warm weather.

Is Wesbrook where you got the wrong skinny on measuring LOP, too?

Art, have you really considered whether you are the exception or the rule? Methinks you have a lot longer forarms than average.

Is the best way to achieve perfect fit a try stock? If so how many are willing to pay a fair price to be properly fitted? My experience has been that not that many are really that interested in having a properly fitted stock made for them.

From what I've seen, though the elbow to first finger pad method may not be perfect, but It is closer to what people usually end up with than naught..............dj

Hardly... While my arms are longer than average the guess provided by forearm length is no more valuable than the color of your eyes in stock fit. Just because it happens to work for some does not mean it is useful, even for the ones where measuremnets coincide because other means must be used to determine whether they are correct or not anyway.

If you believe in self-fulfilling prophecy go ahead and measure that forearm, and multipy by the eye color while dividing by the shooter's age... Might as well, they will be every bit as accurate that way. Or just say 13 1/2" is the right LOP for everyone.

I believe it was Saddlesore that pointed out the thumb should be about 1 1/2" in front of your nose... That is far better than a guess.

And concerns about scope eye are taken away by mounting the scope in relation to the shooter's eye... Amazing concept...

Are we adjusting the LOP as a means of getting our eye closer to or further away from the scope? I think the first step is to get the LOP so you can mount the rifle quickly with hunting clothes on and to keep your thumb from hitting you in the nose under recoil. Step two would be to use various mounts and maybe different scopes with different eye relief to get the scope the proper distance from the eye. In other words, move the scope to adjust to the eye rather than moving the eye (by changing the LOP) to accomodate to the position of the scope. If using iron sights that couldn't be moved, then it makes sense to adjust the stock to put the eye in the best place to use the iron sights.

Is there anywhere I can find a list of people who could "properly" fit a stock for me? I'm mainly concerned with geographic location.

Hmmm... it appears that proper fit is more art than science, and includes a number of variables... no, a bunch of variables... some of which are very subjective on the part of the shooter.

Radius of the pistol grip has big effect on length of pull, tighter radius= shorter LOP.

Shorter (than "ideal") length of pull allows the shooter to compensate for lack of cast-off and toe out i.e. stock crawling.

A 1/4" of toe out is a beautiful thing

Buy, trade and shoot a lot of rifles.

After a time, you'll find the right LOP.

CZ550 FS lists 13.75" as LOP. A few of their other 550 models are the same. A little longer than the 13.5" that seems to be 'nominal'. The FS model feels OK to me, except the comb is low with medium rings, and OK with the iron sights. IIRC, some of the CZ 550 rifles had 14" LOP, couple years ago, anyway. They felt long and heavy.

Wayne van Zwoll in his book 'The Hunter's Guide to Accurate Shooting' said he wants the rifle's center of gravity as close to his center of gravity as possible. I think that usually translates to as short a stock as is manageable. I recall seeing an NFL line player for the Chargers. About 7 feet tall athletic build. He would probably need a longer stock to get the CG closer to his CG for offhand with rifle across his body.

With very little thought, one can easily recognize the variables which will impact measurement of the length-of-pull and the feel of said length. If the trigger is located forward in the guard and the grip is open, the stock will measue long but feel short. A stock that is very straight with little drop at the heel will force the shooter to lower his head and place his face forward. Without meaning to do so, he might find himself in close proximity to his thumb and risk what professionals call " a solid digital/nasal connection".
I am about 6'1" and have long arms in combination with shoulders like a trout. I'm comfortable with about 13 3/4 to 14". On my prone rifles, I like about 14 and a quarter.
I have had some fairly short customers who insisted on a longer pull than I would have recommended. They ended up shooting with the butt out on the point of their shoulder. All wrong, but they were insistent and happy with it. GD

An old gunsmith looked at me one time, looked at my Sako 75, and recommended a LOP that was shorter than I was used to. 13.25"

Took a chance and I was happy with how it turned out.

Ever notice that the Ruger Compact Rifle fits just about everyone that shoulders it. Just an observation from letting folks shoot mine.

Wesbrook does indeed mention that there may be some variation in personal preferences.


But what if we're fitting Barbara Streisand?

Sorry, but it works for me. Given that the world is not populated with clones, there are exceptions to near every rule, and one just might be an exception.

Typically, it's only those that are extremely proficient (like world class shooters) or the extremely rich (that can afford Holland and Holland doubles) that worry about such issues and go the tailor made route. Wish I could afford a couple trips to the UK for fittings. I'm one of those rare poor folks that's taken to fabricating much of my own stuff (fly rods, stocks, and bows), and while I'm at it, I make it to fit.

Likely the best route is for folks to get around one of the competition Anschutz units that's adjustable 6 ways from hell. Tune it up to feel good specs, take the measurements and do the build.

Pretty much...

I will say that JB's notion of the +/- 1/8" for each each deviation from 5'10" is pretty much spot-on for me. I'm 5'8" and a 13.25" LOP on a rifle generally feels right, with 13 1/8" or even a 13" LOP being good for winter clothes if the gun is not a big kicker.

I like the LOP on my rifle to fit me when I'm wearing my Winter Clothes and like nothing longer than 13 inch's . This is one reason i love the AR with the 6 position stock instance LOP to fit me regardless of what I'm wearing . My CZ 204 is a pain in the Ass when calling with the 14 inch LOP . I'm getting ready to cut the stock and refit the pad to 13 inch's even.

Surprising how many guys I know will absolutely refuse to shorten a stock. Ask them why and they'll say they don't want to reduce the resale value.

Never bought a rifle as an investment, myself.

This thread is good example of why I quit measuring LOP using any of the traditional/standard methods. Dependant on stock I measure mine from center of rear screw hole to the end of where the recoil pad will be. I'm 6'1" and my wingspan is 6'1" too. On my serious big game rifles, I shoot a stock that is an 1/8" longer than a M700 youth stock.

And that's why if I order a stock, I tell them to let the length "run wild"--scope, grip, and it's use are all variables that can change the LOP.


Casey

Interesting decision to simply ignore the way the rest of the World... or at least the part with a clue... measures LOP to establish your own system which does not even carry over from brand to brand... Some would even be unmeasurable by your "system."

Do not worry about it though, it is at least as useful as measuring the forearm...

A try rifle is the best way to properly fit a rifle, along with a couple fittings made while the stock is in progress.

Sitka's insistance that measuring from the crook of your arm or forearm doesn't matter at all is nothing more than persistant bull headed silly stubborness. There are so many renowned makers that use the measure as a starting point that it's really pointless to argue, he simply disagrees with a lot of makers vastly more experienced.........................dj

After reading this thread, a days session fitting a shotgun suddenly seems very simple and matter of fact. It seems individual rifle fitting is all over the map in comparison.

Best

14" for rifles, both scoped and iron/peep sights as well as shotguns works for me.

Gunner

Read closer closer what I wrote Art. I wait until I try the stock with the chosen scope, and the rifle's use. Besides, my serious rifles now all have stocks that replicate very closely, or are the genuine article, of the Remington synthetic ADL with the "shadowline" cheekepiece.

I know what works for me and don't mess with the rest.


Casey

I think greydog's example PROVES there is no ONE ONLY way to measure LOP for everyone.

I'm 5'10" and the 'elbow measurement' works great for me. Everyone does not have the same body ergonomics. Long/short necks; thick/thin shoulders and varying arm lengths.

It's an individual - subjective thing.

Yes, there is. If you can stand with your shoulders nearly square to a ten inch pie plate at 25yd, and hit it 8 out of ten times, in UNDER one second each shot, from low or high ready, then your stock is short enough.

Then, go prone at 100yd, sling up (Ching or loop) and shoot a group. If you don't get scoped then your stock is long enough.

You'll likely have to take about a half-inch off of Mule Deer's formula to pass the first test.

Fortunately LOP is about the easiest stock measurement to adjust. Simply change the thickness of your recoil pad and/or spacers............dj

Sorry but I've never had to shoot 8-10 Xs to find out if the LOP is correct for me. I can tell the FIRST time I shoulder a rifle, as far as too long or too short is concerned.
Maybe 50 + yrs of experience is some advantage.

I'm convinced the real test is in how it works out for the individual, rather than a prescription (although Mule Deer's works out along with my thinking).

Another old rule of thumb, for what it's worth, is that when in doubt, make a rifle shorter and a shotgun longer.

I stand 5'9" on a good day, have a 34" sleeve, fairly broad and square shoulders, and find 13 1/2" LOP on a pistol gripped rifle stock about right. Much more than an eighth longer, and I don't like it. As much as 3/8" shorter, and I find I'm still happy. My pet .375 is 13 3/8", and I think it's perfect and I shoot it from all positions as well as any rifle I've ever owned.

On a shotgun, with pistol grip, I find myself fitted right with a 14 1/4" LOP, and am OK with as long as 14 1/2".

With a straight grip and double triggers, I find 15 1/2" to the front trigger just right, and 15 3/4" is almost as good. Less than 15 1/4" on this sort of gun is definitely cramping my up, and less than 15" positively awful.

I also find, in the larger context of gun fit in general, that there's more art than science to it. Surveying my paltry rack, there are shotguns whose dimensions vary quite a bit, yet for reasons I can't devine or explain, they hit in the same place for me.

No science with these notes...just what works for me, after decades of playing around trying to find nirvana.

You and I are built prety dang close and have similar dimensions in a stock. I like 3/4 to 1" drop at the heel, 13 3/8 measured to the inside curve of the trigger. I've shot all my rifles set up this way - all but 2 serious hunting rifles have McM Edges. Much shorter and with thin clothes, my thumb becomes part of my nose. To correct, I've gone to wearing a shooting vest with padded recoil pocket when I'm shooting my hunting guns in the summer. It makes the LOP better plus helps cut down on recoil. I've never had issues with scope burn - except one incident with a bear and a wierd shot angle.

At the end of the day, I've shot enough rifles to know what I like, what fits and what doesn't. I will say when I pick up one of my Dad's guns and do the arm crook test, it doesn't fit in the crook of my arm. Shouldering the gun proves it doesn't. Shooting it removes all doubt - especially his 416.

Rightttttt............ It is an old rule of thumb displaced by logic and simple testing. Yes, the number is close to correct, that is obvious and why they started using it... However, as a "Measure" to determine LOP it is absurd. Why bother to waste the time to "Measure" something which will not be used? Simply mount a stock, any stock, and actually measure the nose to thumb relationship and you have a valuable number. And that is every bit as fast as measuring the forearm and getting a number that will not be used.

I also disagree with those that say the grip changes the LOP much... If the grip is so unusual it changes the location of the thumb, or if the trigger is set way forward in the guard (great way to wear out a knuckle) forcing the hand forward it might make a slight difference, but the thumb to nose relationship remains.

Name a single "Name" maker that will support your contention that they use the number... any one...

It is obvious for the average person the number comes out close to the same, but to suggest it plays any part in determining or being worth measuring is ridiculous.

Then again, maybe it ain't much of an advantage. Can you zero rifles without shootin' them as well?

What you and most of the posters in this thread have yet to understand is "feel" ain't got a damn thing to do with anything except some imaginary [bleep] floating around in your heads. Hitting the target is what matters, and whatever facilitates obtaining a natural point-of-aim helps you get the hits.

T A K - You are welcome to your opinion.

I know what works for me.

Thank You Very Much.

No offense intended, but simple little rules like that are truly made for simple little minds. I have made stocks for 30 years and find it to be one of the biggest piles of Hoo hah ever foisted on the shooting public. It may be a good rough starting point but is sure as heck is not way to arrive a an accurate measurement.

A shooter's physique is made up of a hell of a lot more parts than his forearm. His total arm length, chest size, bicep circumference neck length and circumference as well as this/her personal shooting style all come into play.Then there are the clothes he will normally be shooting while using it as well as the shooting positions it will most often be deployed in.

So does stock design. A shooter will require less LOP for a Thumbhole stock than he will a classic or straight grip stock due the the placement of his hand being closer to the grip(further away from the butt). That makes the Thumbhole stock feel longer even though the LOP is the same as the more traditional stock.

I have three shotguns. All have different LOP depending on thier use. My levers 38-40 ,357, 44 mag are still some thing different. My 6.5 Swede pronghorn rifle is longer than my 30-06 elk rifle. My two muzzle loaders are again differnt from the others.
I'm 5'-5" but with longer arms and some of my stocks are a lot longer than the 13.5" quoted here.

All my long guns come up and have very natural point of aim. My scoped rifles get built so that I am looking straight down the scope tube when I mount them.

If you are only using stocks that came with the gun, you can make do with the elbow trick,or just mount them to see how they " feel", but it won't tell you much. However, if you are making a stock or having one made,why would you not have it made to fit you exactly, or why would you not add or subtract to a factory stock to do the same?
The gun manufactures have figured out what LOP best suits the average person.However, average usually means 50% of us.That means there are 50% of us out there that they don't fit.

When I buy a long gun, I usually end up taking off the factory stock and storing it away as new. Then I carve one to fit me.
If I make a stock for a friend or so,I get it close, have him/her shoot it as I observe them and modify accordingly. The LOP is the last thing I tweak in.

This always mystifies me.Guys will dwell on bullets,powders, primers, loads,cartridges, all types of gun gack, have 6-8 loading manuals, and spend countless hours on the deciding what is the best stock finis, but won't go out and buy one book on proper stock fitting. You need to learn what each feature on a stock does or does not for you.

Read an article where the subject was how accurately a shotgun can be pointed. Example given was stock fitting for a small bore rifle competitor named Stidworthy, IIRC. He would shoot with the rear sight removed. I guess the idea was to avoid compensating for inaccurate fit by aligning the sights. The idea, I think, is to get the rifle to shoot naturally for him w/o having to wiggle around, etc., to get lined up.

IIRC, he could shoot 5-inch groups at 50-yards w/o a rear sight. If so, that is about as well as anyone could point a shotgun using eye as rear sight. No details about how many shots, but most hits were probably much closer than the 5-inch edge diameter of the group.

The effective pattern of a shotgun at 50 yards is probably not many inches wide. Hitting moving targets consistently at 50 yards is demanding.