So here's the skinny, I've got a 80's Rem. Mtn. Rifle in 7x57 I started shooting it a few months ago as it came from the factory.It wouldn't group a variety of bullets and loads, factory or handloads. I then removed the speed bump from the forend and did some light bedding around the tang and maybe an inch and a half to two inches up the shank of the barrel. The trigger is crisp and breaks clean at 3 lbs.
It does not have a long throat or excess freebore, Max SAAMI COAL is 3.065", in my rifle, bullets are hard into the lands at 3.150" for about .085" jump. I have been seating the bullets out to having about a .030" jump. After shooting more handloads and such it still won't shoot less than a 3-4" group at 100 yds. I'm not shooting it hot either and I let the barrel cool down between shots. The groups are printing randomly, eg; 1st shot high and left, 2nd shot low and wide right, 3rd shot dead center with no consistency on where the first shot or the last shot will go. There is no noticeable vertical or horizontal stringing either but I do get an occasional pair of bullets almost landing into the same hole...go figure.
The scope is a Leupy VX3 2.5x8 and is a proven scope off another rifle and I've checked and rechecked the mounts.
What I'm wondering short of rebarrelling it is if any of you guys have run into the same sort of problems with these real lightweight barrels and what you might have done to correct the issue. I can't say with 100% certainty the barrel is the problem but, I'm leaning that way. I have tried the folded business card under the barrel trick also to try to see if some slight pressure may help it but,to no avail. I have also been considering beddding the barrel full length to see if it will calm the barrel down.
Any thoughts,ideas or suggestions? I like tackling difficult projects but I'm starting to run out of other things to do.
Thanks,
BD

Sure sounds like something is loose. Make sure ring base screws aren't bottomed out and action screws are tight. One of those might possibly be bottomed out also.

I thought about that too and checked both the mount bases and action screws...everything is tight.
Thanks for your suggestion

Have you checked to see if the recoil lug is bottoming out in the stock. That happened with a friend's rifle. He was lucky to get five shots in a six inch circle. After hogging out the stock under the lug it became a shooter.

use epoxy under the bases, if there is not a perfect fit between the bases and receiver the bases can shift no matter how tight you make them, and check the front of the scope bell and make sure there is plenty of space between the bell and barrel the light barrels can move more during firing than some people beleive.Don't allow anypart of the rifle or stock to touch anything except you, if you are using sand bags place your hand on the sand bag with the rifle on your hand.I know these are things most people do but I am not there to see what may be wrong.

All good suggestions.

My Remington mountain rifles usually exhibited those traits when the magazine box was pinched between the receiver and the floor plate. File or grind a bit off the bottom until the box is barely loose. It also helps to epoxy pillar the action screws. That will prevent the wood stock from compressing when tightening the screws.

BlackDog1;
A good friend of mine actually had what sounds like very similar issues with a Remington Mountain Rifle though as I recall his was a .280.

He called me for some ideas about bedding and while I did give him a couple, what finally worked on that rifle was to bed the action and lug recess area but to remove all the contact from the barrel entirely - that is to say 100% free floated.

Up until then I'd never had a rifle shoot after doing that, but for his it worked.

I did have a .308 Norma with a light contour barrel that gave me fits until I fabricated and installed a barrel band on it so it could be bedded similar to the way a pre-64 Model 70 was.

I should add that I bedded the first 2�" of the barrel with that rifle, as well as the barrel band to contact in such a way that it "really" dampened the barrel vibrations.

That idea came to me via an older article by Ross Seyfried where he related the issues he had with an octagon barreled Champlin that refused to shoot after being rebored. Instead of a barrel band though, he cut a dove tail in the under side of the barrel and installed a wedge with a threaded hole and then pillar bedded in the Model 70 like barrel dampening screw.

Anyway, there are a couple ideas to try, though the barrel band fix is pretty extreme as it requires a lot of stock modification as well - which if I'd not made the stock myself wouldn't be too desirable I'd think.

Good luck with your rifle whichever way you decide and all the best to you this weekend.

Regards,
Dwayne

I had a 788 that shot like that. Took it a apart, and saw a mark on the bottom of the barrel...the sling swivel stud would hit the barrel when the gun went bang. Backed it out a tenth of an inch, and got 3/4 inch or better groups. Sometimes it is something that stupid.

Leon:
I will check that out, thanks!!

Hubert:
Plenty of room between the bell and barrel, I haven't epoxied the bases to the receiver... I'm shooting off the same 20lb tripod rest and bags that I've been using for years without any troubles. You are absolutely correct, shooting form can hinder good groups.
Thanks!!

Thanks guys for all the ideas, suggestions and help, I can't type fast enough to respond individually but, it's much appreciated. Keep the ideas coming because I'm going to be looking at every one of the items all of you have mentioned.

Best ,
BD

Make sure the front base, front screw is not too long. I've had issues with this screw getting buried into the barrel threads that I now routinely shorten screws by .010. Screw them down, remove and check the threads again. If you see any bright spots and mashed threads shorten a bit more. This has helped on 4 or 5 rifles and greatly relieves the desire to jerk hair out of my head.

Check the front action screw length by looking at the right locking lug. If there are small scratches around the middle of it, shorten the screw a smidge. My Montana in .257 Roberts went from shooting consistent 1-1 1/4" groups to being all over the target. I had "wisely" taken it all apart and when tightening the screws decided to make sure they were farmer tight. Buried that front screw just enough that it touched the right lug when the bolt was closed. Had I not seen the scratch in such an odd place, I probably would've ended up pulling more hair out.

Check the mag box and make sure it's not "peenched".

Lastly, measure the runout. I have the same rifle and my dies were routinely loading absolutely crappy ammo. When I say crappy I mean runout from .005 to .020.... Here's how I solved that problem:

Loaded a bunch of dummy rounds and found one that was straight as I could get it. In the .001 range, all told I probably seated about 25 different dummies.

I then removed the seating stem and ground the inside of the stem/cup with a dremel tool. After that was completed, I placed the die in the press without the stem in place, then added a small amount of Acraglas into the "cup". Used Hornady One shot on the dummy round all along the bullet. Placed the dummy round in the shell holder, raised the ram, and THEN screwed the seating stem back down until it contacted the dummy round.

I let it sit overnight, lowered the ram and voila, perfect impression of the dummy round bullet nose in the "cup" with .001" runout. I then drilled a small hole in the epoxy since bullet tips on Hornady Interlocks in 139 grs have lead tips (which vary). Thereafter, the rifle shot great. Runout is now .005" or less. Course the die is only set up for Interlocks but what wrong with that?

7x57 neck diameters vary so much in factory rifles that between bad ammo, larger than "spec" diameters, thin brass and dies that resized necks so much it's a marvel a .284 bullet would seat, it's a wonder I could ever get any of them to shoot.

Remington brass has thicker necks than Winchester (for example).

Hope some of it helps.

If it doesn't, shoot me a PM. I have an extra toupee you can have for cheap.

Some more ideas:

Check the muzzle crown for dents;
Check the locking lugs for uneven contact;
Try different bullets;
Try a different scope;
Pray.

BlackDog1,

I often avoid these threads because, as I've noted before, it's almost impossible to tell what's wrong with a rifle without actually having it in your hands. Consequently on the Campfire you end up with a long list of what has worked on other rifles, which is almost endless.

However, after reading your original post I would hazard the guess that removing the "speed bump" has a lot to do with the problem. Yeah, I realize the rifle didn't shoot very well with the speed bump, but simply removing it doesn't help UNLESS the barrel is truly free-floated. Even then, I've found light barrels (like those on Mountain Rifles) often shoot better when totally bedded.

What you probably have right now is a barrel that taps the forend during firing in various places. This doesn't do accuracy any good, and the symptoms match the inaccuracy you describe.

Your description of the rest of the bedding you did isn't too helpful, but it might be a problem as well, but you might try "neutral" full-length epoxy bedding of the barrel and see what happens.

I completely agree with MD's post and diagnosis

Agree, I always bed the skinny's right to the end. You could also just remove the box and single fire...

W

Something way easier also may be to swap the stock for a sporter if you have one on another gun or lying around and fling a few. Never know. If the thing starts to shoot even remotely ok then you just eliminated everything else...

W

What I was thinking too.

Thanks a lot guys for the ideas and suggestions!!

JB,
After shooting the first couple of rounds in the rifle prior to any bedding changes I ran my hand down the barrel near the end of the forearm to see how warm it was getting. I heard and felt a slight, small "pop" sound and noticed the barrel shift very slightly over to one side in the channel. I figured that with the barrel warming up the pressure point had shifted slightly and was causing some uneven upward pressure that would later change back and forth, day to day, between cold barrel and warm barrel shots.
This is why I removed the speed bump. Interestingly, the POI dropped just over a foot at 100yds. after rebedding, I was expecting some but not quite that much.
In your estimation, would it be worth the time to remove the bedding under and around the sides of the barrel shank and see how it shoots first or, just move forward and neutral bed the rest of the forearm? It sounds from your post that more Remington mountain rifles shoot better full length bedded than not. I have heard of other guys in the past neutral bedding "pencil" barrel Brownings to calm them down and IIRC, Mel does this on his NULAS thats why I was asking about it in my OP.

I will be re-checking to see if the the box mag is slightly pinched or if there is some pressure against it i haven't found yet. The crown is fine, I've shot a variety of bullets and loads, factory and handloads, all with the same results.
I will be pulling the mounts off to recheck and see if any of the screws are bottoming out. I've got a brand new set of Redding dies coming to update the vintage 70's set of RCBS's that I have, though the RCBS's still produce fine loads.
Switching stocks first to see if it changes anything is a good idea, unfortunately I don't have another one here to do that with at the moment...

Again, thanks a lot for the help its much appreciated.

BD

Bob, do like jb suggested and im sure you will have a much more consistent shooter. After you do that youll just have to worry about working up a good load for it. If you are to the point where you are tired of messing with it, let me take it for a while with your die set and i could try to whip it into shape ........

JB is right on the money about modifying the forearm to float the barrel. If you're gonna free-float the barrel, then FREE-FLOAT THE BARREL. Don't leave it close anywhere because the barrel will vibrate and make contact with the stock on firing. When you put that dollar bill in there to check the clearance, pinch the barrel and stock with one hand and move the dollar fore and aft with the other. If you can pinch that dollar anywhere along the forend, you have a tight spot(s) and the barrel is probably slapping the stock when the rifle is fired. Look at the way a Kimber 84M barrel is floated. There is a good gap on both sides and the bottom of the barrel all the way to the bedding. I consider that gap on the Kimbers to be absolute minimum, and some of them close up the gap on one side or the other after leaving the factory due to stock warpage (possibly from the rifle resting on it's side in the box). I know the gap is not pretty like the fine fit between stock and barrel on a pre-64 M70 or an FN Browning Safari. In fact, one of the things I hear touted as an ugly part of the post-64 M70s is the wide gap between barrel and stock on some of the earlier post-64s, but there is sound reasoning behind a good gap. The absolute worst situation is a partially free-floated barrel that slaps the stock on firing. The barrel should be absolutely free-floated, or soundly bedded in one of several manners described here, but definitely not something inbetween.

Sorry to pound on that point, but it cannot be overemphasized. That horse is kicked completely to death now and if the point isn't understood by now, it never will be.

We are good at kicking the chit out of that dead horse around here.....

BlackDog1,

I'd just go ahead and full-length bed the barrel. My guess is it will make far more difference than anything else suggested so far, and if there are other problems (and there may be), it will make them easier to diagnose.

One thing about full-length bedding: The channel must be bedded ALL the way to the end. Otherwise it can still dance around a little, though accuracy will still probably be a lot better than it is right now. I've rebedded the tip of the forend on a few stocks just to make sure of this.

+1.........

Great post. Could not have come at a better time for me. I have a new Winchester model 70 7-08 Featherweight, and pretty much have been going down the exact same raod with it. Hell, you could substitute win ftw for rem mtn rfl and have same post verbatim. I am leaning hard to the full length barrel bedding now.

......and I have to strongly dissagree with this post....Yours is not one of the new ones then. Every fwt I've shot, or have seen shot (at the range), have been extremely accurate....FN goes through great lengths to get these things to shoot, IE: proper bedding, freefloating the barrel, target crown, etc......You rarely hear of a poor shooting newer model 70 (made in SC by FN)....

JB,
I'm going to full length bed the barrel first as you suggested and see what happens from there. I strongly agree that if there are any other problems it should become easier to diagnose. I only like to do one thing at a time to try to correct a problem... I feel if I was doing 2 or 3 correction/modifications at a time without shooting the rifle at each step it would be more difficult to ascertain what exactly the problem may have been if corrected. I may also be unwittingly creating a problem.

Thank you and everyone else for your help.

BD

Don't want to steal BlackDog1 post, but mine is a Morgan, Utah model 70. From the factory, when you tightened/loosened the forward action screw, with your fingers gripping forearm and barrel, you could feel movement.Much-o stress on the action. Bedding corrected it, but groups still aren't where I want em to be. Ain't giving up on the beast yet.

Although bedding pressure on the barrel, only occasionally makes a gun shoot better. Rather than removing the wood putting pressure on the barrel, the first thing should be to shim the action with a couple thickness of a business card. Then if the gun shoots, remove the pressure on the barrel at the tip.

One problem I have had is the crown on a new Remington was faulty. Just another possibility to add to your list.

I had the same problem with my Rem 700 lss in 260 and as the stock was laminated I thought by free floating the barrel and with the stabilty of the laminated wood this would solve the problem, it still shot poorly. The thing that fixed it was rebedding the barrell about one inch back from the tip of the stock into a pad of accra glass gel about a full inch long and I bedded it tight like doing the action, now it shoots right around one inch groups with my nosler partitions and will do closer to .5 moa with sierra 120 match kings seated out. Both 3 shot groups, it seems to heat up after that but for a hunting rifle that all
i ask for. I think these pencil thin barrels need some upward pressure for stability but the pressure pad put there by the factory at least in this case allowed the barrel to move a little bit from side to side thus resulting in the barrel shooting from a slightly different spot on the wood each shot. All my other remington 700's have shot better free floated but they all had thicker barrels also.

I've suggested this before for detecting rather obvious bedding stresses. Install a gridded bore sighter in ones assembled rifle and note his crosshair coordinates. Leave the bore sighter installed and loosen ones tang and recoil lug screws. Recheck the boresighter. If there is any flexing of ones barrel or receiver, there should be some coordinate shifts. One can confirm by retightening the screws and checking again.

That method revealed a stressed receiver on a Weatherby Mk V 257 some years ago. I glassed the recoil lug and tang in a completely relaxed state (no screws installed or torqued down), and the rifle came around. Now with the bore sighter exercise, there is no movement what so ever as one assembles and torques the stock/action.

Also, removing the pressure point in that stock dropped point of impact about 7 inches at 100 yds. Good luck,

One other thing that I have seen many times is a bolt handle that is touching the stock. That makes for irregular lockup that can cause accuracy problems. I'm going to condense all these suggestions into a list because there are just too many good suggestions to not have recorded somewhere. Can't remember them all.

I always ask people if they are re-using mounts, I have fixed more problems by replacing used mounts than any other issue. If you eliminated that issue I didn't see you mention it in the posts.

I installed new Leupold dovetail mounts from the get-go. I have removed all of the bedding that I placed into the stock including the action area, and am I'm going to neutral full length bed the barrel and the action together. After I have had an opportunity around my work schedule to re-bed it and put together some more handloads and shoot it up at the club, I'll post up my results and let you know how it worked out. I'm very determined at this point to exorcise the demons out of it, come hell or high water.

BD

I am guessing that Leupold mounts are the "problem" mounts siskiyou6 is talking about. In my experience, that's the only the only mounting system where wear is a problem. They might be the most popular mount, but have a number of problems. Wear is one.

Have never had any problem with "wear" in other mounts.