I'm a little baffled on the subject, specifically in regards to the .284 BT hunting bullets. From the advice and experience of several here, I understand the 7mm 150 BT's to be pretty darn tough, but the 140's not so much. I also understand the 120 BT to be very tough. I would have thought there would be a cutoff point of, say, anything over an "x" grain bullet is tougher than the one's under this point. How does one know which BT's in the same caliber are tougher than another of the same caliber?

All you need is a vice and a grinder or file. There's a bunch of sectioned bullets along with testing photos on the Nosler reloading forum. IMO with the new design of the BT's having the tapered jacket ala Accubond, there won't be a toughness issue.

The way I understand it is that the same jacket blank was used for the 120 and 140 BT.

Since the 140 must be stretched further, it ends up thinner than the 120.

The 150 got it's own jacket, because they acknowledged that they already were thinning out the jacket at the 140's, and couldn't take it even further to make the 150's.

At least that's the word on the street....

JG the 120gr was originally a thin jacketed hunting bullet like the 140gr but the sillouhette boys couldn't knock down the targets(metal goats,chikens, hogs)with it as it was so they beefed it up. So now instead of a progression of thin,thicker,thickest you have thick,thin.thickest jacket progression. That's the main reason for the hunting popularity of the 120's...especially in 280's. powdr

This is my understanding as well...

Swiped this from the "innerweb".



L-R, 120 gr BT, 150 gr BT, 140 gr Accubond, .308" 168 gr, and .308" 180 gr

Aside from the jackets, the cores of Ballistic Tips were made of harder lead alloys after the original versions proved too tender. So even though the jackets can vary on certain models, they all are tougher than the originals.

I've shot a pile of deer and antelope with 140 Ballistic Tips from various 7mm rifles since the early 1990's and the only bullet I've recovered was from a pronghorn buck shot with the 7mm STW. He was quartering away at around 200 yards and I put the bullet in the rear of the rib cage. It was recovered from under the skin on the far shoulder, after breaking the shoulder.

To tag on here, I've never recovered a 140 Ballistic Tip, from my 7mm-08, shooting PA whitetails.

With that said, I started loading 120's for this year.

Why? Why not...?

Yep, why not?

That's one way to tell if you're a rifle loony. If you weren't, you wouldn't bother changing from something already proven to work!

Thanks for the help guys. After I publicly made the remark here a while back that I'd tried the BT's back in the late '80s in a 7mag and hated them, said I'd never use another, blah, blah, blah.........I've become intrigued with the .284 150 BST in my 7mag and 120 BT in my -08. Mainly for deer sized stuff and aoudad......especially after the way they shoot ! Can't wait to whack something with them. My daughter wanted to start shooting some ( was never interested before), so a lightened version of the 120 bt in the 7-08 seems perfect to get her started.

Never seen a 7mm Ballistic Tip of any weight caught by a critter....

I'm gonna try 150 BTs in my Ackley after seeing how perfectly great the 120s shot and killed in my 08.

SO, do we still need to keep the BTs below 3000 fps ??

Dogshooter,

I've seen a few caught by animals, but mostly by animals bigger than deer. Have a couple from gemsbok, which weigh 400-500 pounds and are built VERY soldily, with inch-thick skin on their front end.

And all the BT's retrieved from seer-sized animals were from angling shots, usually involving bone. Shot a Montana whitetail doe last year with a 100-grain BT from a .257 Roberts. She was quartering to me at about 50 yards, so I aimed right for the near shoulder joint and hit it. Found the bullet under the hide at the rear of the ribs on the far side.

Seen a few of them caught by pigs, but they all died.

I had some trouble with the earlier 140 BT's out of a 7-08. I haven't used them on Whitetails or hogs since.

Nothing against the newer ones, just found other stuff that works well and see no reason to change.

JM

From the looks of hte cut-away photos, they got the 150 gr. weight by using more lead and less jacket.

The 150 shown also looks like the thinner, older version.

IMO both the 120 adn 150 BT pictured are the old style. The new BT's have the same shape core/jacket as the accubond. Any BT's purchased in the new slip out style boxes will have the new style core.

I'm sure it happens..... I've just never seen it...


All I know for sure is this: Nosler Ballistic Tips and Alyssa Milano will always be my first loves. Over the years I've heard... and even occasionally seen... reasons to change my mind... but it'll never happen. To this very day.... few have rivaled.... those that have, carry very similar lines....

I've caught darn few NBT's of any cal (never a 7 or a 27). That I can recall.

*55 out of a 22/250 on a monster carp doe @ 200 yds thru both fronts and almost exited

*55 out of my 6/06 on a average whitey doe @ 190 yds, thru both fronts and almost out

*180 out of a 30/378 on a cow elk

*200 NBT out of a 338/06 on a 5 pt bull @ 200 yds, bullet went thru the front, up thru the neck, and we found it about to exit by an ear

That's all I can recall

Dober

Well I didn't like the first generation of BT's and avoided shooting them, till the other day. I when to the range to check zero of my Blaser R-93 7mm RM, I forgot to take a box of ammo, so I bought some 150 gr BT federal loads. Long drive to the range. I didn't have to do much, and boy do they shoot out of my barrel. Was not off much. 4 shots did it. We will see on the white tails I hunt this fall. My guess not a problem.

Here's a fresh 30 125gr from an easy open package. For those seeking rapid expansion...

I would hope so. Would suck trying to recover one while the critter was still alive.

That was meant tongue n cheek.. Lol.

Glad someone caught it.

UUMM, I didn't get an answer to do we need to keep the BTs below 3000fps and IF the new BTs are built like the Accubonds.. is there a difference.... other than the bonding ?? Shooters pro shop has the 150 BT in 284 diameter as seconds right now. Anyone know if they are the old version or the Accubond want to be's ??

Old 150 NBT...... new 150 NBT..... it doesn't matter a frickin' lick.... you crash one of those suckers into fur, and you'll be needing a knife post haste.

I have bashed more than a few 3000+ fps NBTs into critters... some as fast as 4000 fps (6 Rem/55).... only caught one.

I've used NBT's on a lot of game and out of a lot of cals and most of them have a lot of speed to them. I sure don't wait till a critter gets to a point where the bullets going Sub 3K till I drop the hammer.

Close range, and a lot of speed then a lot of meat will get rearranged and that's fine with me cause I like my critters turfed quickly.

Bottom line, load em up and light the torch.

What kind of game are you taking and at what ranges on a yearly basis?

Thx
Dober

I love it.....and agree 100% !

I've said this b4, but the thing I love about my big 7 (Mashburn is my choice) along with the 150 NBT is that it pounds game at longer ranges akin to what it's like using a 9 iron on a field mouse.......

Don't ask the next Q....grin

Dober

I would have to concur.... though I prefer a long iron for vermin work... little more range.

I've seen more game definitively anchored via Big 7 (RM/Roy) + Ballistic Tip than any other combo I can think of.

Deer with a Big Seven/150 NBT..... is like coyotes with a Big Six/87 Vmax..... ohhhh how critters hate the high velocity exit wound....

I totally concur and I love my 6/06 for yotes with a 95 NBT

Dober

I hope to be able to put a .338 180gn BT through a deer this Fall.

Edit: pic from the web (unknown source). .338 180 BT on RT

I have been shooting BT's in various 7 mm Rem Mags and WSM's since 2004. I killed 13 deer with 140 gr and 11 with 150 gr. Muzzle velocities ranged from 3170-3300 fps with both bullets. Of course impact velocities varied as well as shot angles etc. Either bullet will kill a deer, in my limited experince I witnessed quicker kills with the 140's with no regard to muzzle velocity. I recently sectioned a 140 grain in the new box and it did not have a tapered jacket. The past couple of years I have been using 150's this year I'm going back to 140's for good...maybe.

FWIW

I've sectioned a bunch of bullets over the past 25 years--enough to learn not to come to any conclusions until some get shot into both "media" and animals.

Quite right. Sectioning can be fun to look at- haven't done it in a long, long time now, but it doesn't say anything about alloy properties or temper of metals.

Dober
Wasn't worried about stuff dieing of BT poisoning but was wondering about blast holes. I have been shooting the BTs awhile too and I don't think I have found one yet. But had a surface blast hole with my 250 3000 last year but that was with a 100 bt @ maybe 20 feel and it still went in to the dirt. Shooting my 280 AI this year on does in January and have some 162 gr Amax I have been shooting out to 611 yards { that is the last row of beans}. Have never shot a deer at long range { to me} but always wanted to shoot one at 500 yards + and this is going to be my year. I have some 140 gr accubonds I have yet to try in this gun but the way those Amaxs and accubonds shoot....WELL, I am sharpening my knives now. Come on down and I will fry you some fat Iowa white tail back straps for lunch.

Maybe it's just a waste of a 'good' bullet and precious time.

Would like to see more, specifically the 6mm 95 and .277 140.

Here's the oft-posted 7mm 140 and 120.

I can vouch for the "tender" characteristic of the first BTs. Shot both 130s and 150s from my 270 featherweight into deerses back in the '80s and never had an exit. Because I was strictly a ribcage shooter back then, the deerses died, but the versatility for placement in harder parts of the animal was just not there. I still have some of the old stuff around in their original boxes. Might have to give the "new" BTs a second look sometime. OTOH, I now have enough 7mm Hornady spirepoints in 154 and 175 grain weights to keep a couple loonies happy for quite some time - certainly enough to last the rest of my life. There isn't any controversy about the efficacy of those spire points and, as I understand it, there never was.

I shot the 150gr original,100 bullets to a box,in my 7mag in 1994.They were bloody messy on deer.Not too many years after that they went to 50 bullets to a box and sometime there after they started changing the design on the inside.I quit using the old style 150gr in 1995 after I shot a buck in the scapula at 250yds.He jumped straight up on impact and went quickly down.I could see blood on his mouth and nostrils,so I knew I made a good solid hit.Shortly there after the buck got up and made his way to the brush before I could get another shot off.I trailed him through the brush and found him lying down.I quickly put one in his neck and that was the end of story.When I was processing the deer this is what I recovered in the ridge of the scapula.



The bullet fragments never broke through the scapula and I would have lost that buck had I not went after it.If I was shooting a smaller caliber rifle,I most likely would have not recovered it,if the same thing would have happened.The only explanation I can give for the bloody mouth and nostrils is,he absorbed the full shock of the 7mag impact,causing hemorrhaging inside his lungs and that is what kept him from going to far,because none of the bullet made it past the scapula.
Since those days,Nosler has come along way in improving the design of that bullet and I would not be afraid to use them for any of my game shooting.

My friend, my brother and I used them in the 80's and very early 90's. Some very spectacular blowups and lack of penetration on Alberta deer, one even at long range. I have never been able to trust them since. But given MD tedimony about how the lead hardness and jacket thickness has cahnged so drastically, I may have to reconsider in some circumstances.

A question for those who believe that energy kills... Where did all that energy go? In what way was all that energy transfered to the deer that it did not even break the scapula,lessover kill it?
BBerg

I tell ya,when that bullet hit the shoulder,he went in a straight up jump that would have made Roy Roger's horse Trigger jealous!

No offense, but how 'bout let's stick with thoughts on the BT's made in this century if you don't mind. I'm well aware of how the BT's performed when they first came out, and I didn't care for them much either, but..........that was 30 freakin' years ago and lots has changed !

Well, they made it longer.

I used plenty of the old BT 7MM 140`s on Deer,Antelope.Never lost one or had to shoot twice.

Thx JG!

Dober

Ack-by surface blast do you mean you had what I call a "splash back" and yet the bullet continued on with penetration?

Thx

Dober

I am curious about this as well. Whenever these NBT threads come up it seems the terms: surface wound, splash wound, blow-up, etc. get used quite often. I've shot a lot of NBTs into animals, and I've never seen one 'blow-up' on the surface or 'splash on the shoulder/ribcage'..... not even 6mm/55s at 4100+, they typically exited coyote size critters... and a couple of does.

It was kinda' like shooting them with plastic tipped potatochips........pronghorns, deer, elk......didn't matter.....


Casey

Mark,

I've seen what many would call "splash-back" with a 140-grain TSX from a .270 on a coyote. Entrance hole (right behind shoulder) was 2-3" across. But the bullet did exit!

In my experience splash-back depends almost as much on what the bullet hits as the bullet. In this instance it hit soft tissue initially, but hit a rib after that. Maybe a piece of rib "splashed back"....

I have indeed witnessed the effect of "Splash-back" with a Ballistic Tip made in this century. I've posted this before so forgive. The killing involved a poor little doe whitetail maybe 110lbs or so (victim) and a roughneck heathen white boy (assassin) accustomed to hunting in the coastal jungle of South Carolina where "if they got out of the food plot shot they were probably lost". So he was up in the Piedmont area hunting with my then club with his drop-em-now rifle; a .340 Weatherby Mag with factory loaded Ballistic Tips. Seems he said they were 200gr but not sure. At 20 yds or so the bullet made an entry wound approximately the size of a small dinner plate but the exit was only about the size of a saucer. Deer still almost made it out of the greenfield but how I'll never know.

I too have seen some gnarly entrance wounds via NBT... but all were accompanied by exit wounds and fur in the dirt.

What I've seen that I would call a splash back I've normally seen on yotes. From a round that was sort of hyper (22/250, 6/06 you know) and pretty much on two different angles.

Angle one, a yote comes in and is taken quartering to me.

Angle two, a yote comes in and I take him head on, thus hitting what I call the breast bone.

Holes can be wide and narly looking, bullets go on thru and the yote hits the turf absolutely right now!

Dober

One thing I don't like about NBT's made in this century is the mess they leave behind.

For some it's not an issue, but I hate throwing away front shoulders. Seems like a waste to me.

For predators they're fine. On big game, they're other choices that don't do as much unneccesary damage.

YMMV

Cut the barrel on that puppy down to 18" and what a brush rifle you would have.

Who the [bleep] would use a 340 Roy for shooting deer in SC? Truly amazing, I'd rather hit them with a 223AI.

I guess lots of folks still buy into the the 'foot pounds' [bleep].

Its a Freudian thing....

No joke! People kill me....! You'll see bigger rifles back east from deer hunters than what you'll find out west. The 7 rem mag and 300 win being most popular...then I can think of one tool bag with pretty hair that likes to brag about his 30-378. Funny thing is the dork had to pay someone to zero his scope for him...lol

I guess I'm one of those Eastern tool bags, since I've primarily used 7MM cartridges to kill a couple of hundred hogs and deer.

Amazing the things you can learn on the Internet.

I've got a hunting pard who uses a .338 Rem Ultra Mag for whitetails. He use to hunt with a .280 Rem but had a few run on him after the shot.....

So none of y'all have ever taken a new or un-blooded rifle out chasing deer.... just because?

I've gone on more than one coyote hunt packing a .375 H&H.... reckon that makes me a tool bag too.....

If you read what I said I said the tool bag is the pretty hair guy with the 30-378.......but if the shoe fits???? Funny how someone says somethin and someone else replies to what they think was said...lol

I know they type. Had a 270 but want somethin to make them long shots with...like 3 or 400 yards...laffin

New since when? I have not been following the Ballistic Tip bullet lately. I like them, I just have not been reloading much. I would like to run them if they are becoming closer to the Accubond

Yea, I've hunted deer with several .350 Rem Mags, and one year hunted all season with a .376 Steyr. I generally change calibers every year just for the fun and new experiences.