"My friend Jack Holliday used the .22 Varminter on a nice mean grizzly up in British Columbia and came back all n one piece. Using the 41 grain Sisk bullet loaded to a velocity of 4,500 feet a second he broke the animals shoulder on the first shot and put the next one in the chest cavity for a KO. These two bullets certainly didn't blow up on the surface as many claimed they would. Jack O'Connor, who was on the trip, opened up the bear for a firsthand look at the results and found that the lungs were well scrambled."
From The American Rifleman dated January 1950, authored by Carroll Lemon, " A Hotshot .22 on Game."
I have read of P O Ackley's experiments with tiny fast bullets, but this article was something new to me. Apparently the light, fast VS big, slow bullet argument is not new.

A 22 might do, a 338 will do.

It only works in Montaina

Tell you what. You get into shooting range with a 22 and shoot a grizzly. I'll stand back (with a 338 Win. Mag) and watch. I'll report to all on the forum how you did.

I reread your post. It seems that the cumulative IQ of mankind has risen over the past 74 years. Perhaps the dimwits that lowered mankind's IQ have been eliminated by the bears.

If someone wants to pick up the tab I'll volunteer right now to go prove a grizz can be taken with a .22 hornet.

Never having faced a grizzly in the wild, I will guess that at that moment whatever gun you are holding in your hand won't seem big enough. A typical eastern black bear at 150-300 pounds would be a fair target for anything that'll handily kill a deer, including .22CF's shooting a properly constructed bullet for the task.

They do and have for many years.

In 1960 (at age 18), I was treed by a grizzly in a national park (I was a park employee). The previous week, there had been a terrible mauling of a ranger, the 12 year old son of another ranger and, a park visitor. That weekend, I went into town and bought a Ruger 44 Magnum (flat top Blackhawk) and started carrying it in an old WW2 backpack.

We'd run into grizzlies every few weeks or so, so I wasn't alarmed until it came toward me; I was hiking solo checking out a trail at the treeline.

Once treed for a few minutes (was it 2 minutes or 20? - I don't know, time goes fast when you are having fun), I shot the grizzly (probably a 400 pound female) 5 times from a distance of about 4-5 feet. She dropped from a standing position to the ground and I reloaded and fired another 5 times (probably not necessary). Now, if you want to use a 22 Hornet on a grizzly, go right ahead. I now carry a heavier handgun than a 44 magnum for back country hikes.

I'll be back in the same park in 2014 for a Smokejumper trail crew project and I won't be carrying a 44 Magnum. I learned my lesson 50 some years ago.

Where in the body were you shooting her? Ammunition used?

I'm curious, how many rounds had you fired through said 44 Mag before the bear incident?

You .22CF on big game guys really need to get with it and move down to .17 cal.

The Ruger Flat Top Blackhawk was very light (aluminum grip) and I was shooting Norma loads (they apparently exceeded SAAMI pressure specs due to differences between US and European testing procedures - Norma later reduced the loads). When I got the pistol, I got a half box of the Norma loads (apparently the original owner only fired about 20 shots before trading it in).

I also bought a 50 round box of Remington loads that I shot in the St. Mary's (MT) dump that Sunday. They were stiff, but tolerable. The Norma loads were not very much fun to shoot.

So, I fired 50 rounds of the Remington loads in the dump and then loaded the Norma rounds of for carrying in my backpack. Certainly, 50 rounds do not constitute a large number, but from 4-5 feet, acceptable accuracy is not had to achieve, even if holding onto a tree limb with one hand! Remember, carrying a firearm in a national park was a felony (at the time) and killing any animal (regardless of reason) was also a felony.

I know of two other grizzlies that were killed in the park in 1960; one by rangers and the other by a trailcrew with dynamite - the Park Service didn't want to remove the bears from where the guys were camping in tents. This latter event (dynamiting the bear) resulted in the crew chief not being rehired in 1961.

In 1961, I had another encounter with a grizzly while fishing in a backcountry lake. I avoided it by wading into chest deep water of a lake just below a glacier and waiting until the other trailcrew members arrived - God, it was cold!!

I went on to be a Smokejumper in Idaho to get away from bear incidents.

I'll refrain from getting into this time honored winter debate except to say, "...there is a distinct difference between what is possible and what one should do."

Well said...

If I could hunt grizz from an armored vehicle, I'd go .22 short

I shot one of those Aluminum Frame Flattop .44 Magnums once - it was the most uncomfortable handgun I have ever encountered.

Where's Dober?

+1.

not many people here go hunting specifically for bear with a .22 CF.

what usually happens is someone is deer hunting with a .22 CF and the bear presents itself, either as a threat or a target of opportunity.

I'd be happy with a .22.....as long as it fires a 435 grain .458 Hardcast bullet at about 1750 fps.

I feel toad is right with his statement. And, in all honesty, I would feel sufficiently armed with my .243, being that it is the smallest caliber legal for deer hunting in Virginia.

Pretty much my feelings too.

Good Lord! That must have been a change of underwear experience!

Didn't he go after a 500 pound grizzly last week with a 22 CF? Has anyone seen him since?

Back in the day, Sisk made bullets specifically for use on big game in .22 CFs. I wouldn't voluntarily tackle a grizzly with them, but they did work well on Texas whitetails, even big south Texas bucks.

"Good Lord! That must have been a change of underwear experience!"


If you find a grizzly at peace with himself and the world, a marginal shot (say 22 CF) might be OK. But, if he is wounded, agitated, annoyed, angry, horny, aggressive, or otherwise in a bad mood, I think your insurance agent would prefer you to have a large caliber rifle. In my case, we'd see 3-4 grizzlies a summer when working in the back country (where trailcrews work). 99% of the time, they'd sense you and move along � no big deal.

In 1960, following a bad attack (ranger, 12 year old boy and female tourist), I bought a 44 Mag. Ruger and carried it with me. Each Monday, my job was to hike up to Grinnell Glacier (Glacier NP) ahead of the tourists, clear the trail of any fallen rocks and, check the outhouse near the Glacier. I�d descend via another trail and check it out for later work. I was going up toward Piegan Pass when I saw a bear 100 yards or so ahead; I stopped to wait for it to move when it started jogging (not running, but not walking) toward me. I was at the tree line and climbed the nearest tree (probably 9-10 inch diameter at the bottom and 4 inches 15 feet up). Long story short, I shot it as it was standing trying to reach me, climbed down, rolled it down the mountain and covered it with blowdown. I never reported it as carrying a firearm in a park was a felony as was killing any animal (2 felony convictions at age 18 would have probably jeopardized my employment outlook). Two other bears were killed that summer (one legal, one not).

In 1961, we were working at Lake Isabel and knocked off early to go fishing. I moved about 100 yards from he other guys and suddenly was overcome by a rotten smell (grizzlies do not bathe, use deodorant, nor brush their teeth; they can really smell foul!). I dropped my fish into the lake and walked out to waist deep water. I never actually saw the bear, but we found paw prints in the mud on the other side of a large brushy area � about 20 feet from where I was fishing.

In 1960, I was actually too busy to be scared (getting up the tree, shooting the bear, rolling it down the mountain and hightailing it back to my pick-up point about 6 miles away by 4PM). In 1961, I really did get scared, standing waist deep in very cold water just knowing the bear was going to get me.

I understand from some books that seeing a grizzly in the wild is a real privilege, and it can be. But, when you are alone, it�s a different story. I understand that the National Park Service no longer permits employees to work alone in grizzly country.

Busy lurking around his gun smiths shop anxiously awaiting his spring bruin rifle to have it's new tube finished.

Oy, it's a Swift Ai...

Dober

This one got me to thinking about a feesh named Jonah...

Dober

Dober, Tell Dan hi for me!

You got it, but this job is being done locally as I've been too busy to box the darn thing up and send it off...I spect I'll have it back within 10 days of drop off...just in time for some snow goph barrel break in time...

Dober

That feesh was a whale, not a bear. If JB is wondering where you are, it must be serious. Were you up on Brokeback Mountain again with your sheep?

OUCH

To me it a rifle one could get by with while humting a grizz might be a bit smaller than one I would want if I were being hunted BY grizz and you never know when old grizz could turn the table on you

Centerfires? We don't need no stinking centerfires...

I shot a black bear with a 22 long rifle once. I have also looked a grizzly in the eye and decided right then and there that they would require more gun than a 22. Black bears look at you; grizzlies look right through you.

No worries. I thought you may have snuck down here on a trip. Still working with Handwerk on getting our ducks lined up to take the boys on a bruin hunt. If you want to send a rig south with me, just let me know and I can drop it off.

Thx 30338 I'll keep that in mind.

Dober

That was a good response. I got a chuckle out of that one. Excellent.

With the right setup, I'd probably hunt them with a .22 CF. Something in the .22-250 class with a fast enough twist to stabilize a 60 grain partition, and deliver it broadside into the heart 'n' lungs, sure.

That's pretty darn different shot angle from what y' get with a "problem" bear. I've never seen a bear charge broadside.

.338 seems a wiser plan.

Yes, a .30 caliber or larger would definitely be a wiser plan, anyway.

Every bullet has limitations and shots need to be made according the limitations of the bullet. The key is knowing the limitations, making the shot required, and passing up those shots that the bullet is unsuitable for.

Most of us would be unwilling to live with the limitations of a 22cf when hunting bears, but that does not mean a 22cf is incapable of reliably killing a bear.

I just read a story in one of the latest gun Mags.by JB, about shooting game with a Swift.

Good story by the way.

Yes, I agree with the theoretic fact that a .22 centerfire (caliber) will kill a brown/grizzly bear. However, I question the choice, as opposed to the happenstance circumstance.

As someone whose (thus far) been responsible for the killing of more than 140 of the beasts, I would definitely question the choice of that caliber over something larger.

But, I would agree with the theory of its (.22 centerfire) capability on brown/grizzly bear when used in controlled (predictable) situations or possibly even a happenstance (sheer luck) chance.

Nothing theoretical about it. I see it regularly. Among the "stunt" shooters is one huntress that has offed 7 of the beasts with her mini-14 (not happenstance and I suggest that 7 of them displays skill rather than luck) and she is confident more will succumb should the opportunity arise...........

You say that "she" killed seven brown/grizzly bears with a .22 centerfire? If so, where did "she" kill those?

I would think "she" has the opportunity, and wisdom, to choose her shots carefully.

Mark

SW Alaska.

Just so you know, that out in the bush, particularly with the natives, they tend to lean toward centerfire .22s and .30-30s. Just about every boat or sno-go (in winter)running up and down the Yukon or Koyukuk Rivers has a Mini-14 in it or strapped on it. The younger generation is more into the ARs and SKSs. But they see them and use them as general everyday utility guns for everything from mice to meese and sometimes when necessary, bears.

I've asked several of them over the years why the .22s and they acknowledge they may be small, but they carry a lot of ammo if needed. You almost never see them take a body shot either. They all aim for the head........wastes less meat that way.

Even out here on the AKPEN in big bear country you find most of the rifles being toted by locals are .270 Win or smaller. It's only the outsiders that carry the big boomers.

What would y'all say is about the minimum cartridge for making a frontal headshot on a griz? Would the bullet be prone to graze off the top of the skull rather than crush/penetrate?

You could hunt bear with a CF .22 , but it's overkill ! A .17 HMR is all anybody needs , of course you should use the 17 Gr. bullet too . The 20 Gr. ruins too much meat !

I wonder what the bullet was like that broke the bear's shoulder right there and put him on the ground. Sounds like it was a pretty tough bullet.

Yes, I'm very familiar with rural Alaska and rural weapons preference. I've been a resident - mostly rural - the past five decades.

Anyway, I certainly realize the need for .22 centerfires in rural Alaska, especially where caribou and wolves are available.

In reference to the woman "stunt shooter" who supposedly killed seven brown/grizzly bears with a .22 centerfire, I'll check with Jim Woolington and Bruce Dale and see what they know about that rumored feat.

Yu just saved me some money! I was going to buy some 17HMR 20grainers for hunting, but now I won't.

About 30 or so years ago a lady who had a ranch a little south of Bozeman heard a disturbance one night in her sheep corral. She grabbed her .22-250 and went out to see what was going on. There were 3 grizzlies killing her sheep, and she killed each with one shot apiece.

I have another friend in Bozeman that hunts and kills a black bear almost every year with his .22-250. Scenarshooter know who he is.

Speaking of Scenarshooter, how many bears have you shot with your .220 Swift Pat?

buffybr-when I moved to Boze in 78 I met Wild Bill, George Jr and Sr and Pat and they all wore off on me quickly in terms of Swifts and '250's.



I called this bruin in away from his lady friend. He turned to follow her 170 yds from me. I hit him with my '250 and a 63 Sierra about where his right love handle would be (probably about where the tallest weed in the picture is at). Bullet exited his Adams apple(about where my right hand under his chin). He ran about 30 and went to Croak City Wyo.

Dober

That's a pretty crazy story about the grizzlies! I didn't know they'd come down low and munch on ranch critters like that...

Dober, that bear is awesome man!

Tanner-it's a good one for sure, too bad the picture didn't do it justice. I suck @ self timed pics and this was b4 I got a digital.

It goes 20 3/16 and was 5.5 years old according to the tooth fairy.

About G-bears. I know a fella who routinely has them messing with his clothes on the laundry line...He also has monster whitey's on his place and a pond chalk full of tortuga's!

Dober

The country that pic is taken in is freakin' gorgeous my man. The pic is a pretty good one, by my standards!... grin

I may have to get a spring bear tag and follow you around for a day or three?

If'n I had a case of beer for every offer I've had like that I could easily keep Icebreaker 3 in suds for the weekend...

Dober

You'll love this one Tanman. This is from many many many moons ago....grins

I'm sure that Scenar and Buffy will recognize the hat.

Dober

Put my name on the list, even if it's at the bottom...

You got it my man...

Maybe you should build a Mash and get invited to the "D-dawg Invitational" bruin hunt. Members of the Smashburn society invited only...grin

Dober

I would never even consider it. If it were all I had at the time then yes. I am really not sure what else to say.

I moved to Boze in 78 I met Wild Bill, George Jr and Sr and Pat and they all wore off on me quickly in terms of Swifts and '250's. Me too.

In the book Wildcat Cartridges, page 20, there's an article that talks about a .17/223 that Vern O'Brien (gunsmith) took to Alaska. His guide bet him he (the guide) could shoot and kill a grizzly with it. 2 shots to the head with a thin jacketed bullet, and the 10' 7" grizzly won him Vern's .17 rifle.

When you talk to Jim find out how he gathers his data on the caliber/cartridge used for the harvest. He's sealed several of my bears, but never has he asked about my rifle or any of my hunting partners' rifles.............