Question for Mule Deer and others

In your (MD) recent article on PD shooting. Quite a bit was said about the 17 HMR as a PD round. A picture of a CZ rifle was shown. But little was said about the rifle used.

Looking over the availability of 17 HMR rifles it seems the competition is on entry level, cheap 17's. The CZ is perhaps the best looking rifle -- in my estimation, and definitely not "Cheap".

What rifle do you use? Was it that CZ? What's your opinion on the rifles on the market?

Thanks for your reply.

MIne is indeed a CZ 452 purchased the year after the cartridge appeared, and shoots very well. In fact during its in initial range session it's very first 3-shot group at 100 yards measured a little under 1/4 inch, and 5-shot groups with various kinds of ammo went 1/2" to 3/4". That said, I've never encountered a .17 HMR that didn't shoot accurately enough for prairie dogs out to 200 yards, which is about the outer edge of its range in average PD conditions. (In real calm, rare on the high plains, it's taken a number of dogs from 200-300 yards.)

All the Rugers I've seen have been accurate as well. In fact a friend in Oklahoma called a couple years ago, asking if the RAR's were actually as accurate as people were claiming, because he was thinking about getting one as a truck gun for his ranch. Now, he can afford really nice rifles, but isn't against "cheap" rifles if they work. I told him he should try one and see. Didn't hear anything for a couple of months, so called him. Turned out that by then he'd purchased several RAR's. He liked the first one so well he bought one for each of his kids too.

Have also shot ground squirrels and rodents with friends who had .17 HMR's from Anschutz to Savage. They all shot very well too. The Anschutz might have shot a little better than the others on paper, but on rodents there really hasn't been a noticeable difference between any of the .17 HMR's I've seen used in the field.

I have a CZ 452 in 17 HMR which, over the years, has recieved the full custom treatment. It has been very accurate with a few different brands of ammo, especially since I installed a tuner.

I have been shooting a bit of centerfire benchrest this year and, when reloading, look fondly at my 17 HMR ammo which needs none of that.

It's really a delightful little gun to shoot.

Mine is the later version 455, Have not found a better round for semi-urban chuck shooting. The .17HMR picks up where the .22lr leaves off. Shots in the 75-150 yard range are right in it's wheelhouse. That little 17gr round hits like a hammer. Big old chucks hardly quiver - maybe a tail flip or two and it's over.

Is there a BDC or dot type scope that is a good match for the HMR? I know it is a bit redundant as around 300 would still be the maximum range at least for me.

I use a Leupold Varmint Hunters reticle for my HMR. It seems tailor made for it in my opinions, especially when spotting your own shots.

I have a 4.5-14 Windplex recticle Leupold with adjustable elevation turret on mine.

I know a couple of guys in PENN that use 17HMRs for gray squirrels and love them, head shots only of course, and I dont think they use hollow points. They both use Leupold variables on them.

That Ballistic Plex reticle found in Burris Fullfield II scopes works perfectly with the 17VMax loads, within 1" of the hashmarks out to 250 yards. I've used it on prairie dogs out to 250 yards, myself, and made first-round hits. While not too heavy on power, it's very good for hunting purposes, not so great for target shooting.

Thanks I am shooting a Stevens favorite now that currently wears a vintage Weaver that I may trade out for a more modern option. But then again I like the retro look. Detachable mounts maybe?

I have been toying with the idea of doing a Nutria control hunt with one of the 17HMR rifles. Gotta be able to get the tail and hope the 17 will stop them much better then the 22 rimfire.

I'm thinking of getting a Ruger American Predator .17 HMR and throwing the TBAC 223CB on it. Anyone shooting their HMR suppressed?

Got my son a cheap Savage with a plastic stock. Dang thing will shoot under an inch. Came with the Accura trigger. It looks cheap ,but doesn't shoot that way.

I personally don't care for BDC's with the .17 HMR. They shoot so flat for the ranges that they are truly capable that BDC really is useless. Sighted at 100 yards the .17HMR is within an inch from 25 to 125 yards and at 150 you are only dropping 2". They drop about 8" @ 200 but somewhere between 150 and 200 the shots go from sure things to maybes anyway.

I recently had a .17 HMR threaded. Shot it this weekend with an AAC Element suppressor attached. Found it to be very comfortable to shoot without ear protection. Far more pleasant than I expected.

Pride-Fowler used to have a 17 hmr rapid reticle scope. Spot on.......

Picked up one of the first Ruger 77/17s that came into the local area... about 15 minutes after they unboxed it..

at the time, brand new it was $459.00....

at one of our campfire get togethers in Arizona, Paladin borrowed mine on a competition shoot between those that wanted to
do so...He and Mudhen had about 4 shoot offs for first place...

Finally someone produced a digital Micrometer out of their truck...

They were competing at 150 yds with them....Dave Bell ( Paladin) ended up winning over Ben ( Mudhen) who was shooting a Savage... the winning group was about 30 thousandths over the other... Savage vs the Ruger...

The Savage had a lot better scope.... the Ruger had a Tasco 4 x 16 on top...

but then again, both Ben and Dave are hell of a shot...

but it certainly showed the accuracy both the rifles and the cartridge could yield...

centershot,

I actually like a turret scope with a .17 HMR, especially for ground squirrel shooting. It helps with hitting tiny targets.

By the way, have you tried A17 ammo in your rifle? I've been using it for a couple of years on prairie dogs, because it gets around 2850 in my CZ, and the difference in trajectory and power is noticeable over the standard-velocity stuff--which I still use on ground squirrels.

Have not tried the A17 stuff, been burning through a couple bricks of standard Hornady 17 gr V-Max's. We don't have many gophers around here anymore (used to be lots of them?) so most of my shooting is stalking rock chucks on the canyon rim. Shots vary from 25 yards to 200 yards and could be that from one shot to the next. Wiley old rock chucks are about as smart as any critter I have ever hunted and they often don't give you much time. With my 17 I can hold middle and put the hurt on them unless they are out there a ways - then I can hit them with the range finder and hold over. Spinning turret would work, but I kind of like the old fashioned way - it's quick and I'm used to it.

Yep, chucks can be pretty nervous! They're also big enough to not require as much precision as smaller rodents.

The A17 ammo shoots to exactly the same place at 100 yards in my rifle as the standard, and last week a friend and I tried some I had on hand in his Ruger while shooting prairie dogs and it did the same. He soon found, however, that it was noticeably flatter at longer ranges.

I picked up on your A17 experience awhile back and have been shooting it in my Marlin 917s, Savage 93R17s, and the rebarreled Savage-Anschutz 141M. Around here, Wal-Mart has the best every day retail price, just under $50 for the 200 round box, while Cabela's regularly has the 50 round boxes priced around $13.

Have seen some consistently good prices on A17 ammo since the election! Before then it was often $60 or more for the 200-round packs.

This is taped to the objective bell of the Leupold 3.5-10X40 B&C on my 17HMR. This is only as complicated as you make it.

Any trajectory program will get you close, then it's a simple matter of verifying and tweaking drops. Same as for a BG rifle.



P.S. Sorry it is so large.

I have the Pride Fowler mounted on my CZ452 Varmint. After I did the trigger and free floated the barrel; it's a hammer. I have made first shot hits on gophers at 225 yards. As you say, the reticle is dead on. I am quite pleased with this rig.

Annie 1717 is a good one. I just put this vintage B&L scope on mine. One of these days, may look into a scope with a dedicated .17 HMR reticle. Unfortumately, I don't get a chance at PD's like you guys. Wish I did.

Some years ago, I was Pronghorn hunting in NM, drove into a PD town. WOW! I could have spent the evening there, forgot about Speed Goats...

DF



This one likes CCI, TNT's. Does good with tipped bullets, but not quite like this.

I have been looking at the Savage A17`s.I need to have something to shoot the Hornady 17 ammo I bought for 9.99 for fifty.Got 1000 of them.

The Savage A17 won't reliably function with standard Hornady .17 HMR ammo--the reason for the hotter A17 ammo.

You do realize you are forcing me to buy two 17HMR`s now.

Huntz,

And the problem with that is?

Did not know that about the A17 ammo.

A-17 ammo at Sportsmans is 16.99 / box, .17 HMR is 12.99, not sure if that is typical but 12.99 is already pretty expensive.

Was out shooting Sage rats yesterday over near KFalls...

With the 17HMR

Several shots... bang/flop.

Took several shots with one of the 223s, with 40 grain V Maxes....
Bang/KaBlooEy! Sage rats parts all over the place....

I put the 17 HMR up and had fun the rest of the afternoon...

seagulls came in and started to eat hardy...

17 HMR suck when you've become addicted to red mist, and exploding varmints...

post mortum pics available if you need to see the difference...

Evaporating more fun than just killing....

DF

They are not being evaporated.... its more along the lines of what democRATS describe as redistribution...

the carcass flying 8 or 10 feet also adds to the rewards....

after seeing that, bang flop is just so boring...

But, the less noisy 17 HMR can function in situations where a louder rifle may raise eyebrows.

Redistribution of vermin parts sounds about right. I like the analogy.

Vaporization more the work of a Swift or .22-250 with light bullets. Red mist, even smaller and more numerous redistributed parts.

It's all good.

DF

John,

Sorry about the dumb question... What is A17 ammo? Who makes it? Never heard of it.

Thanks,

Dick

CCI makes the A17 ammo. It was developed because the A17 Savage rifle did not cycle properly with regular ammo. CCI hopped the ammo up by 100 fps and the Savage cycles properly. The side effect of the A17 ammo is that it develops more than 100 extra fps in a bolt .17 HMR. Mule Deer reports velocity of 2800 fps or higher. It is also as accurate as the standard ammo and normally shoots to or close to the same zero as standard ammo.

I wonder if .17 HMR ammo may one day reflect A17 performance.

If A17 is as accurate as std. ammo and shoots 200 fps faster, why not make all .17 HMR ammo to that standard.

Just asking...

DF

Goes for $49.95 for a 200 round box at Walmart and a few other stores where I'm at.

D F

I honestly don't have hardly any opportunities to use a 17 HMR, 204, et.al. There aren't very many varmints round here.

I have friends in/on 3-4 deer leases where 'shooting' is NO problem BUT it's all timber land (piney woods of varying stages). More of the 'crop' is too large for visibility. Clearcuts are great but there aren't that many of them and good shooting only last 4-5 yrs each.

That's one thing I really MISS about living in La. I had access to 1000S of acres of timber land, not leased. There were lots of opportunities for varminting. I don't have that any more.

Jerry

That's a little better but I usually get regular .17HMR's for ~$10 per box. Will have to keep an eye out.

I got 200-round A17's for $44.95/200 recently at a local store.

It's pretty amazing what a .17 HMR or a .22 WMR will do to a hog if you use FMJ bullets.

A good bud educated me.

You can buy really good, cheap guns in both chamberings. Those make great truck/tractor knock around guns. Don't have to worry about skinning them up; they shoot a lot better than they look, are utility tools that can do the job.

IMO.

DF

Absolutely. I have a 22 WMR - 94 M Win Cam stock that I love and have/can use. Then I have a 6mm Rem. Those 2 cover all the varminting I have now.

I'd love to hunt hogs, problem is I don't KNOW of any huntable hogs anywhere close to me. I have family & friends spread around and NO ONE knows of hog population here.

If I could USE one, I'd enjoy either a 17 HMR or 204 but I don't have any use for one right now. Since I have the 22 mag & 6mm I can't see buying something I don't use.

Thanks

Jerry

I have a great .204, PacNor on a vintage .222 M-700 ADL. It shoots factory ammo so well, I bought a good supply. I've never reloaded for the .204, although I'm set up for it. Like you, no PD's or such to use it on. And like most Loonies, I have a safe full of choices for targets of opportunity.

My .17 HMR is such a nice rifle, I don't take it in the truck. I have other options.

Maybe one of these days.

DF

My .17 HMR is a CZ 455 Varmint with a Leupold 3-9x AO.

Nice, good wood.

How are you posting pictures, which web host are you using.

DF

I'm using imgur.com.

Been studying PB alternatives, Imgur seems highly regarded.

PB really handled all this in an unprofessional manner. Old threads are now defunct. I have an old thread on shotgunworld.com. 600+ posts, 72,000 hits since 2007, about Major Charles Askins Sr's personal 1932 Browning Superposed. It's now showing blanks instead of pictures. No way am I gonna repost all that. Would take way too long. I did print hard copies, so I still have a record. A notice or phase in would beat a ransom ware, hostage type scenario. Sucks.

DF

Yup,hopefully PB will go out of business.

Amen, they aren't getting any of my money..

Mule Deer,

Our local shop was selling bulk packs of that stuff. 1,000 rounds for $137 if memory serves. It's freakin' awesome.

ingwe sold me a 77/17 with the bull barrel and laminated stock not long ago. That thing is wicked. Feeds great. Shoots tight.



Travis

Did you get a "stunt shooters" license thrown in with the gun...?

Or was it extra?

DF

$137 per 1,000 rounds is a killer deal! That is only $6.85 per 50 rounds, the least expensive retail 17 HMR ammo that I've heard of. You should buy all you can get at that price!

No.

But he did give me a great deal on it. Threw in some mags and ammo also.

It made me feel bad for telling people how old he is.




Dave

I did.

They also had 1,000 packs of Stingers for $90. Great gopher killahs.




Dave

Glad you are loving' it!

I just had a birthday, and now everyone knows how old I am. I don't want you to feel bad.

I'd tell you the hit vs miss ratio from a couple weeks ago. But you'd think I were a liar...




Dave

No worries! I love a high shot-to-kill ratio!

This is my 17 HMR. I bought a new CZ 452 American a few years ago and started modifying it. A friend offered me a really good chunk of walnut and this is what I ended up with. I've been shooting it in a few local rimfire matches recently with good results. Being an old benchrest competitor I made a tuner for it. It helps getting good groups.

This image is from Imgur. It's easy to use. I've been using PB but... $400.00... forget it.

I will stop at Jay's and see if they have A17's. If so, I will get a box and try them. The tuner helps a lot when I change ammo.

FWIW this is the CZ 17 HMR shortly after I got it. Note the small tuner on the end of the barrel. This was taken in my front yard. Fall is very nice up here.

At the time I was writing for Precision Shooting. I took this pic hoping to get it on the cover. Alas, they went out of business before I could get it in to the editor.

Another Imgur image... I'm starting to like them.

Nice photos, Dick! And very nice walnut as well.

I might have to add a tuner to my 452, even though it's shot accurately enough for 200-yard rodents since day one.

very very nice!
\
beautiful rifle!

John,

Have you done anything with the trigger? I used a Yo Dave kit and have it down to a dependable few oz. Since you get four shims and four springs (for twenty bucks) and only use one each I, then, did a couple of my buddy's guns.

Dick

I replaced mine with a Timney, which has a superb 2-pound pull. I sometimes use mine in the winter, when I prefer more pull-weight than on summer-only varmint rifles.

That is a beautiful piece of wood! During our hot/humid summers better quality blued CM firearms stay home in the climate control, while RAR-Ps and SS handguns and rifles get the nod when I go afield.

Don't tell anyone, but I sold off my Savage rimfires in recent years and replaced them with CZ 452's - a Lux in 22LR and an American in 17 HMR (apparently us lefties aren't worthy of the 455's yet). I also picked up one of the newer Browning T-Bolt Target/Varmint models in 22LR which is another great little rifle, and if they weren't so darn spendy I would probably grab one in .17 HMR as well.

I keep thinking about getting a .17 but I already have a good .22 mag so that's all the further it gets.

I've got a Ruger 77/17 that I've had ever since they first made them. It's been my truck-tractor-ATV-UTV rifle, and I've killed a bunch of stuff with it, including a number of coyotes. But, it's always had accuracy issues, with a lot of flyers. Still, I like it a lot.

I stopped at Jay's yesterday. They had a big box of A17 for about $70.00+. I didn't buy it. I want one box to see how it shoots in my gun before I spend more money. I bought one brand that shot 1" groups at 50 yds. I didn't even bother to try to adjust the tuner. Same brand, different bullet shot fine.

Most ammo will shoot 1/2" at 50 yds. and I can use the tuner to make some of them shoot half that size or better.

How do we feel about a 17HMR on a coyote at a max of 40-50 yards?

I've seen some very dead coyotes taken by the .17HMR at that range. A couple big time winter coyote hunters I know swear by it for their winter calling rifle. I've been tempted many times but my .22mag does fine for me. p

Dick,
that is just a beautiful job on the stock. Really makes that rifle stand out.
Not to send this off in another direction, but I just checked a PB hosted photo post I did in 2009. Its still up?
Any one send me to a link to whats going on with them. Have been thinking about Smug Mug as a pay option.

Warm and fuzzy.

I like that.

How big a box of A17 was it?

The only size boxes of A17 that I've seen are 50 count boxes, but only at Cabela's, and 200 count boxes everywhere else.

AFAICS, the primary advantage that the A17 ammo offers a shooter is the flatter trajectory due to the higher than advertised velocity. A useful advantage if the A17 shoots good groups in your rifle. Since it shoots good groups in my Marlin 917s, Savage-Anschutz 141M parts gun, and Savage 93R17BVSS, the increased velocity is useful to me.

From what I've seen the A17 ammo varies widely in price, even at stores in the same relatively small town. In our nearest "big" town, 30,000 or so, have seen the 200-round boxes at anything from $45 to $70 in the past months. Several carry both the 50 and 200-round boxes.

Years ago when the 17 HMR first came out I picked up a CZ452 Trainer in .17 HMR to compliment my .22 LR. I have used it extensively on PD in CO and WY. I found myself using it far more than my .223's even in and around Chugwater where the wind blows hard!

The funny thing is that the last several years when you couldn't find .22 LR or WMR, you could always find 17 HMR. Too bad it is too much for Rabbit and Squirrel.

Not too much if you shoot those rabbits and squirrels in the head.

It was a 200 count box and expensive enough to make me look for a smaller box to try. I've had one brand of ammo shoot 1" groups at 50 yds. That's too big to even try tuning. Interesting enough, the ammo that didn't shoot, shot very well indeed when I got the same brand with 20 gr. Gamepoint bullets.