With the trend of fast twist barrels and high BC bullets are some calibers eventually going to get on board or become a thing of the past ? I'm thinking particularly .257 or .270

My opinion though I've never seen figures is we have to be deep enough into the new hype now that sales are beginning to plummet for some of the less desirable calibers according to paper.

What do you all think?


Trystan

I grew up shooting cartridges that were introduced in the early 60s and before, and I skipped most of the new stuff, besides a 270 WSM briefly. But I like the new trend. The shoulder pounders had their day in the sun. Let’s move on

From the standpoint of the firearms and ammo manufacturers, I see the faster twist options primarily coming about in new chamberings, so as to not confuse the consumer with twist rates for their existing firearms. The 6.5 and 6mm Creedmoor come to mind, along with the new Valkyrie .22 centerfire. There are so many 1-10" twist .257 and .277 caliber rifles out there that I cannot see rifle manufacturers skipping over the existing faster-twist commonality of the adjoining .244, .264 and .284 offerings to start creating specialized versions of the .257 and .277 just for the heck of it. I bet 90% of the bajillion existing .270WCF shooters out there have no idea what twist rate their rifles are, so if the rifle/ammo sellers want to push the fast-twist and high-BC trend on those people, it is easier to do it with a new rifle in a whole new chambering, shooting new ammo. And when that is the case, the typical consumer could probably care less if the bullet diameter mikes .007" different than their beloved Ol' Betsy.

Exactly. 95% of the rifle buying public have no idea what their rifles' twist rate is. They'll keep scarfin' up 270s 'til the cows come home.

Calibers get on board?? As already pointed out it's the manufacturers that would have to get on board, and they're driven by demand.

this forum is not an accuray reflection of the hunting public.

most want to buy the cheapest rifle they can find with X characteristic (says remington, stainless, wood stock, has magnum in the name, etc.) and then go buy the cheapest box of ammo they can find slap on the cheapest scope they can find with X characteristic (24x magnification, illuminated reticle, 50mm objective etc.) in the cheapest ass rings they can find and then pay someone else to mount and boresight it, and then shoot 2-3 shot groups of remington core-lokts or whatever ammo they can find at walmart the cheapest and they will keep shooting for however long it takes them to get one round within 1" of the "bullseye" and then call it good, and go shoot one deer a year with it from then on.

the big mass producing manufacturers know this and keep pumping out guns with old twist rates because they know it will work best with the cheap ammo. The only way to get stuff in anything else is custom, through semi custom makers like Barrett, or in rifle forum looney group buys =]

It's far easier to start off right than to try to update an existing cartridge with new twist rates and slick bullets (or even higher pressure limits). As proof, I offer the .244/6mm Remington and the .260, both hobbled by corporate blundering. There are others.

The .25s and .27s are doing just fine as what they were dedsigned for, and the new kids, mostly 6.5s, are selling well because they are good hunting rounds too, but also because they excel for new, trendy, shooting activities. I don't think they're cutting into sales of othe stuff much, but rather creating their own market.

The 7mm rounds were pretty well-endowed from the getgo by their designers, but there doesn't seem to be all that much interest in them for the long-range games, possibly because of recoil. They're still excellent game cartridges as always, and maybe the best compromise as their fans have claimed for decades.

I like 270’s. I have a 270WCF, a 270 WSM, and a 270 Wby. I like them all. Hard hitting, little recoil!!

Average people with average guns will keep on killing all the game this country can produce.

It's shooters, not hunters, that are driving the new wave of gun-selling.

I agree w/ Dakota.

IMO, unless you are hunting or shooing PAST 500 yds, fast twist and high BC don't mean much.

Jerry

The 270 is getting a boost with the various 150 to 170 grain VLDs the 25s do well with the 110 to 125 offerings. Custom bullet makers will make 25s up to 160 grains if you have a 1 in 5 or 6 barrel for it. I think the elimination or reduction in the Hunter class rifles has reduced the demand for the VLDs and other target bullets in 25 caliber. The 270 is just too close to the 6.5mm and 7mm to get much play as a 1000 yard rifle. But a few fast twist 270wsms have been built for this and other cartridges too I am sure such as the 270x300 Weatherby.

If I were a manufacturer, when time to update tooling, I’d quietly start producing 1:8 .257 and .277 barrels for those cartridges and move on. I’d also release VLD type ammo for same marked 1:8” twist only. Most would never know the difference, but those that do could take advantage of it. We’re starting to see that with .223 and even 22-250 from some manufacturers.

John

Interesting thread and good commentary.

I think what we have going on is a change in the demographics so to speak. In the last generation hunters drove the market and the guns produced.

Today shooters, not hunters are driving the market. I give you AR-15's as an example.

We also have the long range and sniper tactical crowd. They shoot way more ammo and spend way more on gear than your average hunter.

Hunting is getting harder and more expensive and youngsters aren't participating as much.

Video games, Hollywood etc..... promote tactical, military type of shooting disciplines and youngster follow that and thinks it makes them macho and cool.

I don't mean to sound critical of it, because I believe it is healthy for the 2nd amendment and the industry, it just is what it is.

This. I would really like to see 1:8 twists in .257 and .277 also. Dunno if it will ever happen, and I can certainly make due with the 6.5 cartridges.

With the PRS swinging the Creedmoor hammer, I can see the 25 Creedmoor becoming a thing.

It seems at least some gun and ammo manufacturers are on-board with the high BC, fast twist rate trend. Checking ammo for the .308 Win, Federal offers ammo that users their Trophy Copper bullet. This 165 grain 0.503 BC solid copper ballistic tip bullet is 1.429 inches long and at 2700 mv it needs 1:10 twist rate to be stable. Hornady offers 30-06 Superfromance ammo loaded with their 180 grain 0.485 BC GMX copper ballistic tip bullet that's 1.579 inches long. This load at 2820 fps also needs a 1:10 twist to be stable. Looking at the Remington website I see their 700 has a 1:10 twist in both .308 Win and 30-06, so these old, but very popular calibers are up to date with what the ammo manufacturers are offering.

The Rem 700 in .270 Win has the same 1:10 twist rate, but Nosler offers a load using their 150 grain 0.623 BC Trophy Grade AccuBond LR bullet that's 1.421 inches long, and with a 2850 mv it's only marginally stable and could benefit from a 1:9 twist rate.

The streamlined shape needed to get higher BCs results in longer bullets, but part of the need for faster twist rates is the move to lead-free bullets for environmental reasons. Lead-free bullets are longer for the same weight and the longer a bullet is the faster the twist rate that's needed to stabilize it.

My Steyr Pro Hunter in .270 Win has a 1:8.6 twist. I don't handload, so I don't know how it does with bullets heavier than 150 gr.

You should be good up to the 170s but I haven't run it on the ballistic calculator that Berger and others have. Just fact checked myself and they recommend 1 in 8 with 1 in 9 marginal so you would be on the line twist wise. See twist table: http://www.bergerbullets.com/introducing-the-berger-270-caliber-170-grain-eol-elite-hunter/

Fast twist would be a good option. I think only Bench Rest and Varmint hunters would object but the people who pay attention to such things usually have custom barrels and loads so I do not know how much of a market there would be for this option. Some I am sure as proven by Barret, Tikka and Ruger.

Yep. A friend of mine bought his first CF this year, I advised him to get a 6.5 CM or 7mm-08. He came home from the store with a .270. I suppose it might work.

You are a young fella aren't ya? Old school will still be in session long after both of us are gone.

You may recall relics such as these? Can you name them? Didja know that brass is still available for all of them? And factory ammo as well with exception of #5 from the left and #9 from the left which is my own creation....based on a .357 case.



Youngest of the lot is 3d from the right and that was likely born before you. Far left? The dreaded BB cap, the one that started all this cartridge nonsense. Chances of ol' Bob disappearing are zero.

Dan, is there more than ONE in your classroom ?



Jerry

On occasion, yes. Problem I sometimes have is that most don't speak German.



Or Vietnamese.

Dan I have a GREAT appreciation for FINE firearms of all ages.
That is FINE-- SUPERB actually ! ! !

I just got over casting and reduced loads. I do like modern firearms and ammo.

Jerry

I do as well. Actually have a SS CF bolt gun and two Conterders with plastic stocks and red dot sights. It rains down this way from time to time. Drip-drip-pop-flop is one of my favorite tunes.

I guess my point is it isn't very productive to fix stuff that ain't broke. Some guns are for special applications and others blessed with cartridges of broad application can cover ground from Floriduh to the 49th state of this land called the USA. Fast twists and high BC bullets have a purpose and niche but it is somewhat narrow. That combination has ballistic baggage just like everything else.

And bean counters make good targets.

250/3000?

Sure ,you could even call it the 250AI!!!!!!

Yep, and if they really get into the over achievement thing they could call it the "LBR" (Laid Back Roberts).

jwall nailed it... If you do that kind of shooting you need a spotter... Guys who are into hunting and not long range shooting could give two hoots about fast twist.. I tried a fast twist ,22-250.. It shot best with 55 gr. bullets, so what was the point??? I hunt coyotes and other game, but never shoot at game any more at much over 400... Coyotes as far as I can see them, but mostly less than 400.. Fast twist is like the creed, new and fun, but for most shooters and hunters, really not that important..

DD, that is a beautiful rifle.. Just cool..

Thanks. I'm still learning with it. .38-55 with a 300 grain pill pushed by Lord Black. It is fun and a learning experience. This is about as good as I've done with it offhand at 100.

This is 100% spot-on.

Not likely. The winning PRS shooters are mostly using 6mm variants (Creed, Dasher, BR, etc) The aren't going to choose a larger bore and hence heavier bullets with higher recoil. If larger bores were the answer they'd be running the various 6.5's. Bullet manufacturers aren't going to be creating the tooling for vld 25's when their market, competitive shooters that fire thousands of bullets a year, aren't going to be using them.

25 Creedmoor? I doubt they'll reinvent a fast twist 250AI to change the shoulder angle a little bit.

Yeah, the .25 Creedmoor ain't happening.

Neither is the .270 Creedmoor, thanks in large part to Ingwe.

What do you old guys know anyway?

I would like a 17 Creedmoor and some high BC bullets.

What caliber has been neglected by the high BC/fast twist crowd for longer than the 17?

My .250AI has a 1:9 Pac-nor on it. Does well with the 115 Bergers and 117 SSTs, and lays 100gr NBTs on top of each other.

Thnx Mr. S Elliott

I'm just now catching up in this thread. Actually I forgot about it since F T & hi B C don't involve me.

Jerry