Some of you older guys will remember Jack. I always respected his no nonsense, straight forward, based on real experience opinions.

Recently, I read through several of his old writings and came across some of his pet loads for the 30-06 which according to my reloading manuals are considerably "hotter" than their max loads.

Examples;
150 grain bullet-55 grains of 4320
180 grain bullet-50 grains of 4064.... I quote-"velocity in a 22-inch barrel is about 2,700"..."I have a somewhat remodeled Winchester Model 70 "Mannlicher" with a 19-inch barrel. Much to my surprise this load turns up a velocity of 2,630 in the short barrel. No. 4064 gives no great muzzle flash and a fairly light report. It is much more pleasant in a short barrel than slow-burning powder."
220 grain bullet-54 grains 4350 (doesn't mention whether IMR or H)

For the .270, in "the most remarkable rifle I ever had" (a M70 Featherweight, remodeled by Alvin Biesen)
62 grains of H4831 and the 130 grain Nosler...quote- " the velocity averages 3,140 in the 22-inch barrel. If I am having a good day, let the barrel cool a bit between shots, and take pains to hold the rifle the same for each shot, it will keep five shots in an inch or slightly over"....

Now O'Connor was the practical sort and I get the impression there was no BS in his writings...I am tempted to try these loads in some bolt guns but don't know if the properties of these smokeless powders have change significantly over the years....any opinions/advice would be appreciated.

H-4831 that Jack used was surplus power that ran out years ago. The new manufactured H-4831 is but in burn rate but not exactly the same.
The 4350 That O’Conner used was IMR, the only one availabile at the time.

T M -

First and most importantly --- the 62 gr charge of "H" 4831 was NOT the powder we have today. That was "military" Surplus powder and that supply sold out @ 1970. That date is NOT exact. In the older loading manuals there was NO H designation, it was simply 4831.

That said, There have been diff manufacturers of H 4831 for Hodgdon SO it's definitely NOT the same powder.
I would NOT automatically load that max charge. AS ALWAYS start lower and work up. I would not be surprised to find '60' grs to be closer to max with today's powder (H 4831).

Another of JOC's pet loads was 52 1/2 hrs. IMR 4064 for 150 gr bullets ( 30-06 ) I have used that load over the years with complete success. The velocity is +/- 2900 fps and very good accuracy.

Your mention of "220 gr. bullets & 4350 (doesn't mention whether IMR or H )" >>>> then there was NO H 4350. It definitely was IMR 4350.

Another of his favorite cartridges is the 7X57. Since I've had 270s, I never traveled the road LESS traveled.
So I don't have any suggestions for that.

There are many other loaders out there and I'm sure they'll have things to add to help you.

Good Luck

Jerry

Mornin JWP. Hope all is well with you & yours.

Jerry

After I got my 270 back in the late 70's, I read an O'Connor article where he gave 60 grains of H4831 as his load for the 270 with 130 grain bullets. That's where I started out, and what I still use today.

By the way, I remember an article on the 7X57 by Jim Carmichael where he gave his favorite load for it. It was 51 grains of IMR4350 with a 140 grain bullet. That is way more powder than the manuals show today. Those guys must have believed in living dangerously. But, I have loaded and shot Carmichael's load in my 7X57, and it didn't show any signs of pressure.

I used 49.5 4064 130 grain I think this also was one of his pet loads

Morning! Hope all is well with you and yours as well

I suspect that todays 7828 is nearly identical with the 4831 that O"Connor used in his 270. It does work very well.
That said, I have used H4831, and continue to use kegs of H4831SC, under a 130gr Partiton, at 60-62 grains in my 270's.

That load, with Remington brass and a Federal 210 primer, gives me 3100 FPS out of the 22" barrel of my Ottmar stocked .270, as measured by my LabRadar.

Happily it is wonderfully accurate as well.

Always use data current for the powder you have, and always work up.

I've got a few odds and ends of older powder, and some older manuals from the same time frame. I might use the powder up for practice loads, using the old data, but I'll keep the charges modest. Or, since I don't have a whole bunch, I might just pour it on my grass.

I have a few pounds of vintage H-4831; it came in paper bags back in the '60's.

When the paper bags started breaking down, I transfered the powder to empty powder containers, appropriately labeled with a Magic Marker.

It smells good, no brown dust, shoots great. I think it may be a tad slower than current H-4831.

DF

I love to play around with other cartridges, and in doing so, I have sadly neglected my 270. I have a ton of powder, brass, and bullets for my reloading purposes. To be honest about it, I could get rid of most all of it, except for a few pounds of H4831, a few boxes of 130 grain bullets, and never look back. JOC was right about the 270. It will do everything I need a centerfire cartridge to do.

We all need to take into account that the recommended loading data for old military cartridges typically has a lower pressure ceiling due to the wide range of quality of materials and workmanship found in old military rifles and, in some cases, because of the strength/design of the actions. A load that is safe 24/7/365 in a commercial bolt action might be a potential bomb in an old military rifle due to design flaws, questionable metallurgy of some rifles that were made under sub-optimal war time conditions, or in rifles that were poorly maintained.

I'm thinking in terms of a hot 7x57 load fired from a Remington rolling block or an equally hot 6.5x55 load fired from a Norwegian Krag.

A solid 60K psi, sometimes a tad over, was a big boon for the .270.

When Rem rolled out their .280, they loaded it down for their 742 semi auto, thus it never ran neck and neck with the .270. IMO, just another long list of Rem blunders.

Oh well.

And no one from the Fire was there to tell ole Jack that his fav. round was "gay". Back then, "gay" was still in the closet, hadn't been "outed", wasn't
a code term, just meant what it always had meant, "lighthearted and carefree"...

DF

I agree with you. I neglected the 270 because it was too common, too easy, and I wanted to do things differently. I was shooting the 256 Newton and 7x57 in lieu of the 270 because they were different and I had to reload in order to maximize those cartridges' potentials while my friends could just shoot factory ammo.

I was reading the book "Letters From Elmer Keith" the other day and EK was, as usual, totally negative toward the 270 as a cartridge for shooting elk. I was amazed by the rude language that he used when writing about JOC and other writers whose views were in conflict with his views.

D F

I have 'almost' 10 lbs of Surplus 4831. It came in a Military Powder Can --IN paper & plastic bag. I'm using it in my 284 Win with great results.

You are correct according to my Oehler - it is a tad slower 'burning' than current H 4831.


Jerry

A few comments on this thread in general:

Actually, O'Connor originally suggested 62.0 grains of H4831 with 130's in the .270, but toned it down to 60.0 in later writings. These days, bullets vary far more in how much pressure they'll produce with the same powder charge, but Hornady's past several manuals (including the present 10th edition, published in 2016) lists 62.0 grains of H4831 as maximum for the .270 with 130's, for 3100 fps from a 24" barrel. However, Hornady bullets don't result in as much pressure as many other brands.

A couple of years ago I tried 61.0 grains of two kinds of H4831 with 130-grain Hornady Spire Points in my 22" barreled Model 70 Featherweight Classic. One was original mil-surp from a can I just opened, which smelled and looked "normal," and the other recent production Hodgdon, made in Australia. The military powder got 3118 fps and the recent powder 3029, indicating the original powder was "hotter." However, that's an example of one batch of each.

Somebody mentioned Jim Carmichel using 51.0 grains of IMR4350 with 140's in the 7x57. Most data for the 7x57 is very low-pressure, though some is a little hotter "for modern rifles," but even then the throat length of 7x57's is all over the place, varying from the original very long throats of military rifles designed to shoot 173-grain roundnoses, and some (not all) modern rifles with much shorter throats. SAAMI's 7x57 throat is much shorter than the original military. This results in a spread of around 3 grains of powder even at the same test-pressure.

Back when O'Connor was experimenting with .270 handloads, the data in many loading manuals was still worked up the same way some handloaders still do today, by looking for "pressure signs," then backing the charge down a little when they appeared. In fact, that's how all the Speer data was worked up into at least the 1960's, even though Vernon Speer had purchased copper-crusher test equipment in the 1950's, apparently because nobody at Speer could figure out how to use the test equipment.

Many pressure signs, such as loose primer pockets and ejector-hole marks on case heads, often don't appear until around 70,000 PSI, which is one reason early published data was often hotter than todays, and the big reason wildcatters often get higher velocities out of cases that don't hold much, if any, more powder than factory rounds. As an example, it's why most 7mm STW handloaders got 3600+ fps with 140-grain bullets when the round was still a wildcat, but after Remington made it a factory round the hottest factory ammo was listed at 3400.

I ended up with Major Charles Askins Sr's personal Superposed, did a good bit of research on the Askins and, of course, JOC and EK were players in that saga. It seems that the Major helped get EK started as a gun writer, they were close, lifelong friends.

Col. Askins, the Major's devoted son, hated JOC. The Major was one of the preeminant gun writers, reportedly the highest paid of that era. As he aged, he started showing signs of dementia, actually died in the Waco VA, which I found out is a psych type facility consistent with treating dementia patients.

It is rumored that the Col helped his Dad with some of his later articles and work. It's also rumored that JOC found out, blew the whistle, ended up with the Major's job. The Col, not the forgiving type to begin with, never forgave JOC. There was ongoing bad blood for his remaining years.

If the Askins, especially the Col, hated JOC, EK as a close Askins ally would tend to have taken their side. Plus, EK didn't like "pest guns" for BG. I think the development of modern bullets nullify a lot of EK's observations and conclusions.

Although their ages weren't that different, EK and JOC seemed to be from different eras, JOC moving into the modern firearm era, EK sticking with the old ways, with what had worked for him. I guess in a way, both were right.

Interesting stuff, a collection of fact and rumor left for us to sort out.

DF

JOC was an educated man, earning both bachelors and masters degrees before WW2, when very few people had the opportunity to earn either degree or any degree at all.

EK was much the opposite and if you read between the lines, he seems jealous of JOC's opportunities and success. In any case, there seemed to be a lot of petty BS. That said, the book that I was reading is a compilation of private letters written by EK and it is probable that when he wrote them, he never expected or intended for them to be published and made public.

Possibly not meant for widespread publicatioin...

I can appreciate that.

Elmer, however, never seemed bashful when it came to expressing himself....

DF

I grew up reading Outdoor Life, and therefore O'Connor. I suppose that's what made me a fan of his more than anything, that in addition to reading about every book of his. Keith always did too much bragging and bellyaching for me. There's nothing wrong with giving your opinion, as I do that every day, but opinions are just that.......and not the be all, end all of a particular subject. I don't recall JOC ever really running a particular cartridge down, but EK did it on a regular basis.

With all that being said, it is somewhat of a shame that the time period that both of those men lived in, and the other writers of that time period, is gone and never to return. If you wanted to read about the latest fad, you had to buy a magazine, and you waited faithfully each month for your favorite one to be delivered. Today, you just log on to a forum, and you get the latest news. I doubt we ever see anything like that again.

The only cartridge that I recall JOC running down was the 244 Remington. He thought that Winchester got the 243 right and Remington got the 244 wrong. Wrong rifle, the 722, and wrong ROT, 1-12". Time has, yet again, proven him to be correct.

"It is rumored that the Col helped his Dad with some of his later articles and work. It's also rumored that JOC found out, blew the whistle, ended up with the Major's job. The Col, not the forgiving type to begin with, never forgave JOC. There was ongoing bad blood for his remaining years."

Well, apparently it's true as Askins did admit to as much about covering for his dad in his book "Unrepentant Sinner". He did say something about O'Connor taking his father's job but IIRC didn't go into great detail other than it happened.
Paul B.

JOC was on the money, right again about Rem and the .244.

Altough if they'd had the 6CM with 8 twist in the 722, that would have worked...

DF

What's right is right. I don't think O'Connor had patience for dishonesty...typical JOC-from a chapter on Medicine for Elk and Moose goes "If an elk hunter is filled with euphoria by going after the big deer with a .458 I am all for him. If he wants to make a reasonably honest dollar by knocking off an inspirational essay on elk rifles, I can understand his problem as i have felt the cruel pinch of want myself. I draw the line only if he expects me to take the stuff seriously"....from his book- "The Art of HUNTING BIG GAME in North America"

With all due respect, to me, Elmer was what we call on sports teams an "I" PERSON...Too much I this and I that, if you know what I mean.

It's very interesting to read that info about the 7mm STW. That caliber was responsible for a severe injury I saw in my ER about 1997, might have been 1998, and it changed the way I reload metallic cartridges.

The fellow I treated had a Remington 700 chambered in this caliber. He was using load data from magazine articles (internet reloading info was nonexistent, or at least very difficult to find in those pre-Google days), and was doing load development at his home rifle range. His rifle blew up on the bench, and according to him it was the third load in a string of 3 shots with that powder charge, which he stated was the max charge listed. He was adamant that the previous 2 bullets had exited the barrel, as he was marking the POI of each shot in his load notes with his spotting scope. The rifle blew open just forward of the chamber and all the way to 3-4" from the muzzle. My patient told me there had been ZERO "pressure signs"... no flattened primers, no case bulge, no difficulty lifting the bolt.

The fellow told me he had been using the published data from Shooting Times magazine, so I presume this may have been the original Layne Simpson data, which as you point out was quite a bit hotter than the manuals later came out with. Anyway, it blew up his left hand pretty badly. His thumb was ok but all four fingers were blown open and fractured. Tendon damage was severe. I numbed him up, cleaned him up, and sent him on to a hand surgeon. He wrote me a thank you note a few months later and told me he'd got back pretty much full use of the hand, but it still hurt all the time.

I had used "pressure signs" in load workup up to that point, but after that 7mm STW injury case, I resolved to stick to data published in manuals, and to strongly distrust the so-called warning signs. Haven't blown up a rifle yet, following that rule.

In 1940, Jack O'Connor probably did not have the juice to get anyone fired from their job. He was a relative unknown.

Askins Jr. did get canned from OL in the late 1940's for freeloading on his expense account. O'Connor discusses this in "The Last Book", although he doesn't refer to Charlie by name.

Like Elmer Keith, Charlie Askins was a bitter, jealous individual when it came to J.O'C. Both felt that OL should have hired one of them instead of "that English Professor".

O'Connor liked Elmer, and thought that Askins Sr. was an excellent shotgun writer. He didn't have much use for Askins Jr. Referred to him as "psychotic", and was probably correct.

The J O'C - EK "feuds" sold magazines. While perhaps not the whole story, it's a big part of it.

JOC was also a fan of the 7x57 for elk - particularly of a load producing about 2650 fps with a 160gr bullet - saying it was an overlooked gem for those looking for a soft kicking, very effective elk killer.

Pretty much reflects today's success with the 7mm-08 in 140gr and 160gr bullets - another "got it right" for JOC!

I enjoyed JOC for his acerbic wit and ability to string five words together and make a complete sentence. The cartridges and rifles he wrote about have stood the test of time, and his stories regarding their use reflect the thoughts of a reasonable man. Elmer, on the other hand, always left me with a sense of having just read the work of a bombastic hick. A knowledgeable hick, but bombastic nonetheless.

I remember that one, he was most upset that the article, which featured "best elk calibers" did not list the 30-06, which O'Connor believed to be one its best suites.

We should do a poll, If JOC were hunting today, how many synthetic stock rifles would he own?

3-5
1-3
Zero, he had Beisen's

He did seem to appreciate a stable stock but really had a penchant for the simple lines of good (not fancy) wood.

Given today's skiddishness about pressure & with the testing equipment available today, I'd be very surprised if O'Connor's loads, like some of Hagel's & Keith's, wouldn't be considered "over-pressure".

MM

It seems (in the clutter that is my brain) that I recall reading somewhere that someone took a look at JOC's powder scale and found that it was reading low by a grain.

And a small boy said, "But, the emperor ..... "

HERESEY ! I say, HERESEY! I say.


From personal experience I use & used 3 of JOCs loads w/o any problems at all.
A. 62 gs Surplus 4831 with 130 HSP = 3100 fps. 270 Win obviously

B. 49 gs IMR 4064 with 130 HSP = 2900 @ fps 270 Win

C. 52 1/2 gs IMR 4064 with 150 HSP or SSP = 2900 @ fps 30-06


I had my own Oehler 33 before I found Hagel's book, "Game Loads & Practical Ballistics........."

I also used 'many' of Bob Hagel's loads in diff cartridges. By many I mean loads for 243 Win, 270 Win, 7 mm RM, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 W M, ETC. I can honestly say, NONE of his loads **that I used** produced expanded primer pockets, blown primers OR excessive short case life.

I AM aware that he was KNOWN for excessive pressure use & destroying some rifles. I can't explain why NONE of his loads caused me any trouble. MAYBE, he had toned things down a bit before publishing that book ? ? ?


ALSO, I wish we had individual pressure testing equipment that was LESS technical & less complicated to use. I have a Pressure Trace system but it is old enuff that it is NOT compatible with TWO computers I have tried.

Jerry

With respect to the comments about 54 gr. of I4350 being hot with a 220 grain bullet I have used this load in two different 30/06s with absolutely no problem. In one of his early articles J.O.C. wrote that users would be surprised at the accuracy of 51 gr. of I4350 with the 220 grain bullet. A few years ago I tried it and found him to be right. It shot like a target load. Being a curious type I went up one grain at a time to 54 grains and still found good accuracy (although not as good as the 51 grain load). Originally it was used in a Remington 700 and then later in my Sako Model 85. The bullet used in case anyone is interested was the Hornady 220. Yet another instance of Jack being right on the money with his comments.

Jim

In 1940, the biggest difference between O'Connor, Askins the Younger, and Keith was that O'Connor was actually a good writer. He had been a reporter and had taught English and journalism in college back when you actually had to know what you were doing to get a university teaching job.

Keith had experience and was a great storyteller, but his work was notorious for requiring a LOT of editing. Hell, I Was There didn't get the same amount of editing as Sixguns or his other works, and it shows. Editors and publishers live by deadlines, the less work an article or book galley requires before it can be sent to print, the better.

Askins the Younger had knowledge and experience, but a glance at his work reveals that his writing was lazy to the point of being sloppy. He had also pissed off a lot of people by gaming the rules to win a national pistol title at Camp Perry (back when sportsmanship mattered), and he had earned a reputation for dozens of unjustified killings during his Border Patrol years.

So if it's 1940 and you're the publisher of one of the most popular magazines of your day, and if your candidate pool for a newly opened editor position includes a barely literate cowboy, a reputed serial killer who cheated his way to a win at Camp Perry, and a polished journalism professor, then it's not a hard decision to make.


Okie John

Here's a great old article in which JOC not only discusses the 7x57, but also gives a few of his favorite loads. His wife seems to have been pretty settled on 160-grain bullets at about 2600 fps. There is also a 'fire discussion from years ago that is pretty interesting.

https://gundigest.com/more/classic-guns/forty-years-little-7mm

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/702276/1

RM

Thanks, for the links.

Charlie did go out of his way to game the pistol competition. He took a .22LR Colt Woodsman, had it chambered for an altered .22 Velodog French centerfire round. He found and bought a stock of the ammo, pulled the bullets, shortened the case, loaded suitable ammo.

They nit picked his gun (of course), found the sighting radius to be too long. Charlie found a welder to reposition and braze the sight for the allowable radius. He won the match,.

Rex Applegate ended up with the gun, had it engraved with the championship data. According to Bill Askins, Charlie's son, the Col. would have never done that, thought such embellishments weren't Kosher. Anyway, here are some photos. Gotta give him credit for innovation...

After that fiasco, match rules were changed to prevent such in the future.

DF









,22LR, .22 WMR, Velodog.

I thought he shortened the Velodogs and turned them rimless too. Am I mis-remembering?

Yet another reason for choosing O'Connor as gun columnist at OL was the fact that he'd been freelancing for the magazine for a number of years, and had not only proven reliable in producing readable copy but likable to the readers, who often wrote to the editor to tell him so.

One way NOT to get a regular work in the hunting/gun writing business is to whine to magazine editors they're dumb for not publishing your work, instead of the writers they're using. I know of at least two instances of this happening during the past decade or so, and neither writer ever appeared in those magazines again.

I read somewhere that Jacks powder scale was found to be out of whack by a couple grains, cant remember where I read that, the scale was sold at auction ???

In addition to pissing people off (something that Charlie apparently relished in) Askins was banned from the NRA for 30 years because of that stunt.

Shortened the case, for sure.

I'm not sure if he cut the rim down, or if so, how much. He obviously altered the Woodsman accordingly.

Now, he went to a lot of trouble just to make a point and stick his finger in the eye of the rules folks.

Ole Charlie just loved doing stuff like that...

He was an ornery cuss, no doubt about that...

DF

I wonder how many Millennials are following this thread. I daresay when we grey-headed fellas are gone there won't be much said about JOC, EK, Askins, et al.

Sad to say, you are probably correct in your assessment. We are a dying breed.

I daresay John Barsness has done a pretty fair job of keeping literacy in the genre of gun writing- much in the spirit of JOC in my opinion. Perhaps that is why I enjoy reading his stuff...

I am reminded (yet again) of the eulogy I wrote for Big Stick back in 2007 before I knew he'd just been kicked off the forum instead of just dying. I quote it in part:



I'm not a millenial, I'm a baby boomer that started reading Outdoor life in 1965. Although I knew O'Connor's writings, I was not all that taken with him or Keith or Askins. Truthfully? I get so much more from y'all than I ever did from reading magazines. You all may be a bunch of loons, but you are a good lot and you mostly mean well, and you're not trying to sell me anything.

+1

DF

I offended wondered about Keith/O'Conners feud. It seems that once in a while they might have shared a hunt together. I started to read all the gun writers back in the late fifty's early sixties and found O'Conner wordy. I liked Keith because he wrote of his experiences along with his opinions which I mostly agreed with. Especially heavy for caliber bullets at more modest velocity. Other writers I liked that you don't heat about anymore that I liked is John Jobson, Pete Brown (both Sports Afield), Townsend Whelen and Bert Poposki.
Imagine those two standing side by side smiling.

I don't have to imagine !

Jerry

I saw Charlie, EK and JOC at the 1970 NRA meeting in New Orleans. Elmer wore his big hat, wandered into the Ruger booth, examined the then new Security Six. He handled it, told Mr. Vogel to "wrap it up", in essence they had his OK to produce it. Mr. Vogel was very cordial to him. I learned later that he was Bill Ruge's SIL, and a high ranking executive in the company. Very nice man.

JOC had a regal bearing, was friendly visiting with his fans.

I watched as Charlie headed from the hotel to the French Quarter, at night and by himself. I had the thought, wondering if he knew that wasn't the best part of town and I sure wouldn't head in that direction at night and alone.

After reading "Unrepentent Sinner", I think he was quite OK...
Don't think the natives would have bothered with him, not more than once...

DF

It appears this group of gun writers are holding Winchester model 50's likely attending a marketing trip for gunwriters hosted by Winchester a Nilo Farms.

OK, a challenge for the old guys, name the gun writers in the picture.

I think that they are as follows:

FRONT ROW from Left to Right:

Ray Ovington, Larry Koller, Tom Siatos, ???, ???

BACK ROW from Left to Right:

???, John Amber, Pete Kuhlhoff, Warren Page, JOC, EK

at one time it could be bought in a metal big cannister holding like 50pounds, pull down powder when hodgden started out.
I have smelled that WWII powder and if stored properly it still works.

[/u]

Originally Posted by 260Remguy

Originally Posted by doctor_Encore

Originally Posted by DocFoster

I offended wondered about Keith/O'Conners feud. It seems that once in a while they might have shared a hunt together. I started to read all the gun writers back in the late fifty's early sixties and found O'Conner wordy. I liked Keith because he wrote of his experiences along with his opinions which I mostly agreed with. Especially heavy for caliber bullets at more modest velocity. Other writers I liked that you don't heat about anymore that I liked is John Jobson, Pete Brown (both Sports Afield), Townsend Whelen and Bert Poposki.
Imagine those two standing side by side smiling.

It appears this group of gun writers are holding Winchester model 50's likely attending a marketing trip for gunwriters hosted by Winchester a Nilo Farms.

OK, a challenge for the old guys, name the gun writers in the picture.

I think that they are as follows:

FRONT ROW from Left to Right:

Ray Ovington, Larry Koller, Tom Siatos, ???, ???

BACK ROW from Left to Right:

???, John Amber, Pete Kuhlhoff, Warren Page, JOC, EK

According to [u]Hell, I Was There (and you weren't ) the back row is Bill Edwards, John Amber, Pete Kuhloff, Warren Page, Jack O'Connor, and Elmer Keith. The front row is Ray Ovington, Larry Kohler, Tom Siatos, Pete Brown, and Jack Seville. I am not familiar with all of them, and would appreciate if someone could provide their backgrounds.

Yes RoninPhx, you are correct.

Jerry

Very Interesting ! I have the book but don't remember that. Several of those I am not familiar with either.
Thanks for posting that.

Jerry

Ray Ovington wrote one of the great fly fishing for trout books, "Tactics On Trout".

Larry Koller wrote one of the great whitetail deer hunting books, "Shots At Whitetails".

I don't know what Bill Edwards or Jack Seville were known for.

I was giving this all some more thought overnight. I've been watching a lot of Youtubes in the evening. Particularly, I've been watching a lot of British comedy. In the middle of all of these, I watched some vintage American comedy-- stuff from the 50's mostly. Something hit me.

So much of comedy in America going back to the Depression seems to have been dominated by feuds. Hope had Crosby, Jack Benny had Fred Allen, and these were all somewhat mean-spirited in flavor-- if not in real life then at least they were portrayed that way. Hope and Crosby both hired writers to write zingers at each other. A classic Benny/Allen feud was Allen trying to get Jack fired from his show so he could grab the timeslot. It might or might not have been playacting, but it often broke out through the fourth wall and had the actors appealing to the audience-- even in the middle of a film.

That's something that the British comedy that I was watching didn't have. There was a lot of meaness going on, but it was all character to character and you never got the idea that Peter Cook despised Dudley Moore or Graham Chapman thought John Cleese was a git or any of that. I'm not criticising either comedy tradition here, I'm just making the observation. Obviously this animosity sold soap and cigarettes and rifle ammunition, so who cares?

Now we come to Keith vs. O'Connor. Look, I was a bit young to really appreciate the rivalry. As I said, my first exposure to all this was about 1965. However, looking back on it, I see this as a fairly common trope from those days. If you had two popular guys, you HAD to somehow make them rivals. Furthermore, there had to be a counter-plot where they were "really the best of friends and were just playacting." And third, there seemed to be a need to make the rivalry somehow spill out into real life. Being a child of the Sixties, I never got the joke. I was just seeing a bunch of old farts dissing on each other.

It did have a direct effect on my life, however. Being around all that feuding left that little kid in the barber shop certain that he had to take sides. To this day, I have a completely unreasonable and irrational dislike for the 270 Winchester.

Oh, and one other thing: I asked Angus' opinions on this. He was born in 1998, so he can give a representation of what a millennial thinks about all this:

Keith who? Jack what?
30-06? Best all all-around cartridge out there.
270 Winchester? Isn't that what women shoot?



As The Buddha says:

"You too shall pass away. Knowing this, how can you quarrel?"

And holding SHOTGUNS ! ! !


Jerry

You beat me to Larry Kohler and "Shots At Whitetails", one of the best books on deer hunting I've ever read.

Growing up and reading the "big 3" hunting and fishing magazines.......Warren Page was the gun guru at Field and Stream, Pete Brown at Sports Afield, and of course Jack O'Connor for Outdoor Life. Being a JOC fan, and because my father took Outdoor Life, I didn't read other two magazines all that much. I do know that Page championed the 243 Winchester quite a bit.

I think that the time period following WW2, and lasting maybe until the 1970's, was what I would call the Golden Era of hunting and fishing, and the magazines. It didn't cost a lot to go on a hunting trip, and it was easy to get permission. That's not the case anymore with hunting leases, and the way it's changed things.

Yeah, and I don't like SLOW BULLETS ! ---<Sig Line>




Funny, looking back how some people/things have deep affects.

Jerry

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered a copy off ebay for $6.

Jack Seville was some sort of boating writer from Florida.

Edwards wrote at least one book on Antique Guns.

Very true and stated very well.

I'm sort of a double fan of Larry Koller, for his writing and for the fact that he was the most well known proponent of the Savage Model 1920. About 30 years ago I stumbled across a Model 1920 that Larry was reported to have owned and was later able to confirm that bit of history from his son, Paul. Paul and his wife, Karen, lived in Bozeman, MT, and operated Missoulian Angler at that time. Paul and Karen were as nice a couple as your could ever meet. Funny thing is that despite living in Montana for over 20 years, she never lost her NYC/northern New Jersey accent.

That ain't a 50 Keith is holding. Looks more like an 1895!! probly in 30-06. Be just like him to endorse it as being just about right for tame mallards using head shots.

Guessing a LOT of 7X57 data was kept at mid level to be safe in the thousands of Mauser 93 and 95 surplus rifles extant .....

PrimeBeef-
This sounds like an interesting story. Where can I read more about it? Just curious.

Was he banned from NRA competitions, or was his membership in the NRA suspended? Both?

I'm away from my library for a bit, but I do recall that he wrote almost monthly in the 70s and 80s for American Rifleman, which seems odd for a banned member.

Thanks.
--Bob

Good read.. I read them all.. Charlie had one heck of an interesting life.. Maybe not something most folks would want to try, but darn interesting. I read O"Connor , but realized he was a writer first and shooter second.. Someone said he made a career of telling the average guy how great the .257 R. 270. and .30-06 were.. He made few if any contributions to the shooting world other than writing.. Keith was a big bore man first, last and always.. To me he was the real McCoy.. He had been a shooter since he was in knee pants and made several lasting contributions to the shooting world.. My favorite of all during those years was a modest man named Bob Hagel..

Didn't Larry Koller do most of his deer shooting with the 250/3000??

The 250-3000 and 30-40 Krag were two of his favorites.

Paul told me that when Larry died, he had over 1,000 rifles, and both liked and shot a variety of rifles and cartridges.

I remember Larry writing the 30-40.. I may even have it some where.. I think he cut the loading box off the Krag and it limited it to 3 rounds, I am not sure of the other modifications, but I remember that.. Also he wrote of wanting a single shot .25 Stevens.. Pretty cool guy.. Another article of his was Magnum Mission in Montana.. I know I have that one.. Nice thinking about the greats of the past..

Paul gave Larry's custom mannlicher stocked Krag to the hunting club that Larry belonged to in southern NY, the Eden Falls Hunting and Fishing Club, that at one time had a clubhouse/hunting camp somewhere along the Neversink River in Sullivan County, NY. There are some good pictures of Larry and his Krag in the 3rd Edition of SAW.

Besides gun writing and gunsmithing, Larry also designed a series of bass flies that now sort of collectible by people who collect such things. They show up on eBay from time to time.

Here's some good stuff to read again.

Excellent post. I agree.

When I was a teenager in the late 50's, Dad bought one of those 50 pound boxes. We shot it up in about 2 years and he then bought another. It was wonderful to have that much powder, and it was priced for a song, even at that time!

I just reread this thread. Something I don't believe anyone mentioned is that Pete Brown was unique in that he commonly gave his shooting results at 200 yards. Most commonly to this day everyone else did and does report results at 100 yards. Today he would probably be revered for this practice.

Jim

Have to agree. The GG books will be looked at as heirlooms in the next generation. We’re pretty lucky that MD puts up with us.

Edited to add that being born in the early 70’s I was late to the party but by then my Father & uncles had most of these books spread all over the ranch house. I most appreciated O’Connor, Hagel & under published Milek. Pretty much still have every book they each authored in my home library as I’m sure most of you guys too. I honestly haven’t read even a single sentence that Elmer Kieth ever wrote - nobody used rifles like he suggested where I grew up so I moved on. Probably should round out my knowledge base before I offer up an opinion on EK.

I read both O'Connor and Keith as a young man, found both to be knowledgeable authorities regarding what they wrote about. As for "Pet Loads" I've always found the late Ken Waters writings and load info to be interesting and useful. One of Ken's Pet Loads for .30-06 is what I have been using for whitetails the last several years, it consists of a Sierra Game King 165gr. over 56gr. of IMR 4350. This load is accurate and deadly on whitetails, 3 shot groups @ 100yds. are often tight cloverleafs and most deer have been DRT. In the late 1970's Ken would respond to questions sent to him by readers of Handloader magazine, my files contain several replies from Ken to questions I asked him. Most of my inquiries were regarding loading for Winchester lever actions, M/1886 in .33 WCF and M1895 in .30-06 and .35 WCF.

I did the whole workup process with both my 270s ( Pre-64 FWT & STD) and both shot superbly with the max load out of the Hornady book of 62gr of H4831. Empties slide right out and no ejector marks, flat primers, etc., so I hope I'm ok

I’ve always used 58.5 gr of H4831 (new stuff) and 130 gr Partitions

I recently did this in my pre 64 .270 with 130 NBT. I had the same results although best accuracy for me was 61g. 62g was a full inch larger. My velocity closely matched what the Hornady manual says. Interestingly the Nosler max load shows 59g of H4831 getting 3118, but it took 61g for my rifle to get there.

My father and his brother's were JOC followers, me not so much in my early years. I was more interested in what was happening in my age group. Give me speed and magnums. As I was phasing out of that part of my guns and hunting interest, I discovered the 7x57 and I borrowed all my father's JOC books and articles. I tried every load JOC published on the 7x57 right down to make sure they were fired in W-W cases.

The most fun I have had with a JOC load is the 130 gr Speer 50 grs IMR 4320 that goes across my chronograph 3100-3125 fps in a 22" bbl. I am spanking the hind ends of some of the 270 Win shooting boys down at the range.

Great thread, growing up as a poor-didn't know it-farm boy in the late 1950s I looked forward to reading JOCs articles in OL. I actually wrote him a letter when I was 11 asking him if It would be ok to shoot groundhogs with 215 grain bullets from my 303 British Enfield. He sent me a typed written letter stating he thought the 180s might be better because they shot flatter and he signed it. I still have the envelope and letter. Would JB do this? I think he would.

Mike

When I was a kid I wrote to Pete Brown asking his advice about a scope for my .22. Guess that was kind of silly. But he wrote back to me. Sadly, I don’t have the letter.

Ole Jack was fond of the 270 Win/150 gr. as well,

Have loaded 55 gr. of IMR 4831 for decades, which now reproduces the modern Federal Premium factory loads.

Truly a meat-gitter combination.




GR

My first handloaded cartridge was with one of JOC's loads, gleaned from "The Complete book of the Rifle and Shotgun." Got that as an introductory offer from the Outdoor Life Book Club, four books for a penny if I remember correctly. Read that thing till the covers fell off it and beyond; long and boring school bus rides will do that.

He mentioned in passing that a load that he had had good luck with in several rifles was 49 grains of 4064 and a 130. I loaded one cartridge at the kitchen table with an unmounted press and the closest of my newly acquired Lee scoops bought with muskrat money, stuck one arm and the rifle out the front door on the farm-house and pulled the trigger. I figured "why lose both hands?" The door served as safety equipment I guess. Nothing fell off, but case was very smoky. Didn't know that was sign of low pressure at the time; so relying heavily on the "nothing blew up" observation I consulted the cardboard slide rule and came up 2 scoops that theoretically added up to 49 grains and repeated the one arm out the door method. The black soot was gone, nothing broke and I used that load for several years.

I guess technically that makes JOC's load my second cartridge. Load development has progressed a bit since them.

"Keith had experience and was a great storyteller, but his work was notorious for requiring a LOT of editing. Hell, I Was There didn't get the same amount of editing as Sixguns or his other works, and it shows."

The story that I heard was Elmer was quite angry at the way they edited "Keith, an Autobiography" so when "Hell I Was There!" was in the works, they had Keith tell it on tape and they'd print it verbatim. I have both books so never really could figure out why Elmer got so upset.
Paul B.

There is a difference between these powders. It was also once said that JOC's scale may have been off by a grain as well.....