Hi John

Do .270 Win bullets really drift like dandelion seeds in the wind? Who made this observation on this forum? I've used the .270 Win for 56 years(I'm now age 66) and never noticed this. What are your observations with longer range shots with the .270? I've never used any factory ammo in my different .270 rifles.

roanmtn

I'm not John, but please define "longer range shots".

Hi StudDuck

To me longer shots are 400 yds and up. Here in Tennnesse where I live I've never had a shot in East Tennessee over 300 yds. In other states my longest shot with a .270 was around 450 long paces and this worked nicely with a range finder that is now fifteen years old.

I do not know if the .270 bullets will drift much different than other bullets. Maybe at EXTENDED Range(1000 yds and up). My Sierra ballistics
program shows the .270 does well up to 1000 yds.

Do you hqve experience with the .270 and longer ranges?

Glenn

All I have to look at is Federal's ballistic comparison table and based upon a quick check comparing a 270/130gr/NPT, 7mm Mag/160gr/NPT and 300WM/180gr/NPT, if a 270 Win drifts like dandelion seeds in the wind, they all do or at least looking at distances out to 500 yards.

Perhaps someone with some long range (>500 yards) shooting experience will educate the both of us.

Roanmtn: M.D. Has a great article in this month’s Rifleman magazine that speaks to your questions.

I have been using 270s (mostly with 150 grain bullets) since 1968.

I have never seen any problems----- and in fact, they seem to drift a lot less than many other rifles I have used.

I am on my 3rd 270 barrel in one of my rifles, so I think I can say without reservation, I have learned a bit about how 270 bullet fly in the last 50 years.

Who ever said that those bullet drift "excessively" has an ax to grind and/or an agenda to promote.

ALL bullets drift in a wind. So what is "excessive"?

From 22 cal round balls to guided missiles fired from F22 fighters, all drift that is enough to cause a miss has to be adjusted for.

If you have to dial a scope, or hold into the wind to hit your target, it's just as easy to hold 18" into a wind as it is to hold 14" into a wind,..... or 9" .......or 6". You still have to hold!

If you can't hold a reasonably sized wobble pattern, you should not fire ----- no matter how many inches into the wind you would have to hold it.

It's just as easy to click a scope 8 clicks as it is to click it 5 clicks.
Or 10.
Or 2
Or 30

If you have the skill to make a hit at X range, you have the skill.

If you don't you don't, and you should not shoot. That's easy. It's true. And it's universal. But it doesn't sell new rifles and scopes very well.

Unvarnished truth is the enemy of most marketing.

Half truths sell things quite well. The whole truth usually has the opposite effect. That same human phenomenon is what is being sold in schools all over the nation and the world. It's what causes students to embrace socialism and "new math" and "sight reading" and all manor of "new" learning. Theories are promoted over truth all the time. And if truth will lead to a different conclusion, it's attacked and censored if at all possible, by every means possible.

You see, if solid truth is established, and if it's simple, you need not pay high salaries to "teachers" to teach you the "new knowledge". But that would be very bad for the collage system. So they give the students "new truth". In many (if not most) cases, NEW TRUTH really means lies in the collages today.

Unfortunately, it's done in the gun magazines too. In our industry it's not to a point of being outright lies, but partial truths are rampant.

When theories and facts disagree, it's easy to guess which one is wrong. But only if you have the honesty within yourself to agree that actions should follow truth and that truth will not follow actions.

If humans would do that, the Dem/Coms and LibTards would all disappear in about 1 week.

But that is a different subject, >>>>>>> just based on the same psychological trend.

If you check the BC between .277 and .284 150 grains and less, the 270 come out on top. I know this is going to be hard for some to handle.

It's all good, take care.

I'd say the above quote pretty much addresses the question.

But what do I know, I've only been shooting the .270 Winchester for 40 years and grew up in Wyoming.

Hi antelope_sniper. Thanks for the reply! My experience with the .270 Win has always been excellent with a great number of one shot kills, flat trajectory, and great accuracy at the ranges that I have taken shots at targets and game. I've shot the .270 for 56 years.

I just kept seeing the quote at the bottom of each reply and wondered what in the heck was going on.

ripshinmtn

I'll second this recommendation.

My take is that although bullets with high BC's have technical advantages at all distances, these differences don't have much practical effect in hunting until shots start getting past 400-500 yards. There don't seem to be as many high BC .277 bullets available as there are in 6.5mm and 7mm. This is probably related to the fact that commonly available twist rates for barrels in 6.5mm and 7mm tend to be faster, thus enabling them to stabilize long bullets with high BC's.

bowmanh

I agree with you 100%. One of the great disappointments of my life is no 1:8 twist for the .270 Winchester. This would allow my beloved .270 to shoot higher ballistic coefficient bullets and heavier bullets. However, the Berger Hunting Bullets have very good ballistics and I think I will use them for more of my hunting.

ripshin

antelope_sniper

Growing up in Wyoming and hunting there for 40 years is a great resume for any hunter. Most of us will not ever hunt for elk in Wyoming, ever.
Using the .270 there is a great 40 years of experience.

I've only been on one expensive trip(Africa) that I saved for during my entire life. The .270 killed every thing with one shot each from tiny Dik Dik
to Kudu to Giant Eland. The only screw up was when I placed my first shot a wee bit too far back on a Waterbuk. Let's not talk about these embarrassing moments, especially when the tracking job was a long and very hot one.

I hope that I will be able to hunt Wyoming elk before I die.

ripshin

Hard to handle, because it's false.

Haven't seen a widely available .277" 150gr or less bullet that tops the 7mm 150gr ELD-X at 0.574 G1.

Hammerdown

I totally agree. I've studied the ballistics of .270 vs .284 bullets and have noticed that the .270 always equals(for all practical purposes) 7mm
bullets of 10 grains heavier weight and sectional density of the 10 grain lighter bullet is almost the same to within a very few grains. For example,
the 150 gr .270 bullet is .279 sectional density vs 160 gr 7mm bullet is .283 sectional density.

Also, as John(MuleDeer) has pointed out, the .277 bullet is a 7mm bullet of 7.04 mm vs the .284(7mm) bullet is 7.21 mm. Not enough difference to make any difference.

I suppose that the .270 is the American home grown 7mm.

Most hunters will never know the difference between .277" bullets and others. But the stronger the wind blows and the more perpendicular to the flight path, and the farther one shoots (especially beyond 500 yards), the more one notices the difference between the higher BC bullets and the rest. I've seen noticeable flight differences between .277" and .284" bullets at under 300 yards when the wind was really honking.

What 150gr .277" bullet has a BC equal to the 7mm 162gr ELD-M?

The 145 ELD-X pushed by R26 in a .270 levels the field considerably (and its what I mostly shoot)....but on the whole Jordan is correct.

When the wind starts blowing, pass me the 7mag and the 168s/180s please.

Jordan Smith

You're right concerning the new 7mm bullets. I should have said traditional bullets such as Hornady and Sierra bullets of cup and core design. AS has been pointed out the twist rate of .270 rifles is not fast enough to stabilize longer and flatter shooting 7mm bullets with the 1:8 twist barrels.

ripshin

The family .270 resume predates me by 2 generations. Granddad bought his model 54 Winchester back in the 1930's. With his Lyman peep sight it gave him a big advantage feeding the family during the depression years. I've never broke an inch with it, but I've shot many 1 1/8" groups with it. For iron sights on a 90 year old gun, I'll take it.

In high school the 4x on my Winchester model 70a was sighted in for 300 yards for big game hunting. During the summers I shot prairie dogs every day, about half the time with it and 90gr Sierra hollow points. Nothing launches a prairie dogs like those Sierra's.

On one hunt, probably my junior or senior year, I took a big bodies mule deer at 300 yards. It was the closest we'd been to a deer all day. We saw some real monsters, but this was not their first season, and we couldn't get closer than 600-800 yards. That's the day I decided I was going to learn how to shoot real distance.

Since then I've taken a good number of mostly antelope between 400 and 700 yards, with one kill at 1000 yards.

The Wyoming plains are a great place to learn the ways of the rifle.

Yes Jordan. Sorry about that one. I was thinking, Nosler for Nosler B/T and Partitions.
Take care

Just a few comments:

Wind drift is controlled by three factors: wind (duh!), ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity.

For shooting at "normal" ranges, most .270 bullets don't drift any more than most standard hunting bullets, because they have BC's in the same range as most other bullets.

While a very few .270 bullets have pretty high BC's, most aren't nearly as high as the highest-BC 6.5mm and 7mm bullets. So yeah, they will drift more than many other bullets these days.

The 170-grain Berger .270 bullet will stabilize in a 1-10 inch twist in most conditions. As an example, it shoots fine around where I live, because the lowest elevation is 4000 feet above sea level.

The biggest problem with the 270 boils down to excessive headspace. That has nothing to do with the rifle, it is excessive space in the heads of those that think the 270 isn't capable of performing exceptionally well with all kinds of bullets and loads.

What's missing here is the fact that holding or dialing is not the issue with compensating for wind, the issue(s) with compensating for wind are:

1) An individual's ability to judge wind; and

2) Wind speed/direction are not constants between the shooter and target.

So there's a certain margin of error inherent in judging and compensating for wind drift.

And the higher the BC, the less the error matters.

I want a 270 GAP to shoot the 170 Berger or a 7.04 mm WSM. With a G1 BC of .663 I think it would take more than a sneeze to blow it off course.

The Headspace thing started with the Gun writers especially Elmer. OK for coyotes and Eagles, not good enough for Elk and on and on ad nauseum.

Then there is Ingwe getting his leopard print thong in a knot over the 270 all the time.

Hi Mule Deer

Thanks for the comments! I've always lamented the fact that the .270 Win does not have faster rates of twist than 1 in 10 inches. Your observations are right on. The high BC's of the 7 mm and 6.5 mm bullets are more than the .270 Win because of the faster 1 in 8 twist
of the two calibers available today. Normal ranges are the only distances that I've ever shot at.

Wellllll....! I see that at longer ranges the .270 bullets will drift more. LIFE IS NOT PERFECT! This just says one must hold into the wind more and pray the estimation is right.


ripshin

The phrase in question, about drifting in the wind, was made to me during a discussion Mule Deer and I were engaged in regarding the merits of the 6.5 CM. John knows me very well and knows that I have done lots of hunting with various 270’s. He was gently making a point and teasing me.
In the words of Boxer/Big Stick, it is all about bullets. The high performance developments are taking place in 6.5 and 7. Certainly companies could build high BC 277’s but they don’t. So, accept things as they are or complain or do your best with what you have.

Hi RinB

Thanks for the where the quote came from(and very funny). Yeah, you're right about the 6.5 mm and 7 mm bullets! All is not lost in my situation.
About 15 years ago I purchased a CZ 550 in 6.5 Swede and used it only for my East Tennessee Ground Hog Zapper. It worked/works very well
with 100 gr. Sierra bullets. Velocity is 3,000 fps and is flat shooting and accurate( many 1/2 inch groups). One pound of Rl15 powder gives me about 7 1/2 boxes of ammo.

My Sierra 6 Infinity Program shows me all the advantages of the 6.5 caliber. Soooooo..... I guess I will start using the 6.5 x 55 for all of my long range hunting and varmint shooting. But, I've noticed that most of my .270 Win shots on big game have produced one shot kills with four hooves sticking up into the air.

Thanks for the info.

ripshin

I began using the 270 in 1970. Have taken about 95% of my big game with that cartridge using a 130 grain bullet. The count is substantial and need not be recited but I promise it is significant. Any problems were the result of operator error. Second was a 280/140.

I see a lot of merit in a 6.5/~140 (bc.625) @ 2850-2900 or so. I don’t see the any reason for much more speed. I want a case a little larger than the 6.5 CM so I can use a 22” bbl and get to the velocity I want. Some rifles shoot better at less than max so, for me, a little more engine makes sense.

When I started there weren’t high bc hunting bullets. Bullets available today have changed the formula for BG hunting performance.

Still the majority of shots are inside 300 so much of this is about preparing for the least likely scenario. I enjoy getting closer. More interesting to me.

a 6.5 140 at 2900 ... that screams 6.5x284 but the ammo is so expensive, and the 6.5 Rem mag is no where to be seen

I guess that's why I use a 6.5 CM with 140's at 2825 It is pretty economical

Dogger,

Which is why new 6.5 cartridges a little more powerful than the Creedmoor are appearing. The 6.5 PRC, recently introduced by Hornady, is very close to the 6.5/.284 and 6.5 Remington Magnum in case capacity, but is better suited to working through a short action, due to being based on the beltless Ruger Compact Magnum case.
Factory and pressure-tested handloads are 2900+ with bullets in the 140-grain class. It's not a big boomer like the .264 Winchester, 26 Nosler and 6.5/.300 Weatherby, but is right between them and the 6.5 Creedmoor.

The Sauer 100 XT chambered in 6.5 PRC is showing on the web page at Euro Optic... not in stock... yet... i am sorely tempted...

I've been reading these forums for quite a while but this is the first time that I've taken part in a discussion. This is a subject that hits close to home as I have my first Montana Mule Deer hunt coming up this fall. The hunt is on an active ranch and the outfitter said to practice out to 400+ as the smarter old boys like to bed up in the middle of the alfalfa pivots surrounded by does with no way to sneak in closer. I gotta confess that while I regularly practice out to 300 at the local range, I've never taken a shot on game past 285, which was on a South Dakota whitetail. Last year I passed up a 450yd shot on about a 150+ class WT deer in Montana because I just wasn't comfortable at that range. So for the last 7 months, I've spent several hours nearly every weekend at a 1000 yd range. I have been reloading for over 30 yrs now and read all the articles on the ability of the seemingly magical Creedmoor to buck the wind and put bullets on target way farther than 99% of us should be shooting at game (myself included). I picked up a Savage long range hunter in the 6.5CM and I do absolutely love shooting it. It shoots the 143 ELD-X into nice tight little bughole groups with minimal recoil at around 2700 (through the chrono). I also have a Tikka 270 that shoots the Superformance 130 SST through the chrono right at the advertised 3200fps and consistently prints 3/4" groups at 100 and consistently centerpunches the 10" plate at 400, and I have a Fierce Fury 300wm that absolutely loves 180 Accubonds or 180 TTSX. One thing I have noticed at the range is that whether I was shooting the 6.5 CM, the 270 or even the 300 win, the difference in wind drift between the 3 out to 400yds wasn't nearly what I expected. Even at 500 and 600 there really wasn't a lot of difference between the 6.5 and the 270, but I notice that my 300 wm shooting the 180 Accubonds at 3190fps seemed easier to hold my groups as the wind picks up. I get that the heavier 180 AB with a decent BC would buck the wind pretty well but I was surprised that the .620 BC 6.5 wasn't holding up considerably better than the 130 grainer from the 270. Maybe some of you guys with more long range experience can help me with this. I'm assuming that the raw speed of the 270 (shooting nearly 500fps faster than the 6.5) makes up most of the difference in BC's at 400yds? I've been debating which gun to use on this hunt since up til now I've never really had to worry about wind much when all my shots have been under 300. I've never killed anything with the CM and I don't feel like experimenting on a paid hunt. Meanwhile, I've taken several deer each with the 270 and 300, both tried and true rounds for me. I like that the 180 accubonds buck the wind better and the 300wm shoots amazingly accurate (the paint splatters on the ram at 400 nearly all touch when my 50+ yr old eyes have a good day), but the 270 Tikka T3 lite is wonderful to carry in the field. Sorry to get so long winded, but is there any real life advantage of the 300wm or 6.5CM over the 270 out to 500 yds?

708man
Mule Deer answered your question in a recent article about the 270. Out to 500 there isn’t much difference. You are handling the biggest challenge...your shooting ability. I would leave the 300 at home.
Practice and your physical conditioning will make the biggest difference.

What?

Your range experience will rock the boat of some, not mine.

Since you shoot the 300 WM ( WELL was omitted, i thot it but it didn’t make it to my fingers) I would not automatically leave it at home. I shoot mine well too.

ATST I really like my T 3 Lite 270 & T3x Lite 7 RM.

If it were me, I would take the TWO I wanted to hunt most. The second would be my backup. (stuff happens)!!
Good Luck


Jerry

Thanks jwall. Like I said, I'm new to what I consider "long distance hunting". I've taken my share of whitetails, a few fallow deer, an elk and even a red stag but have always tried to get closer than 300 yds. I do plan on taking both the 270 and 300 with the 270 being my choice just because it's so easy to handle and still holds groups around 5" or so at 500.

I actually plan on using the 140 SST's rather than the 130's as they group a little better for me past 300 and not that much difference in drop. It's topped with a Zeiss HD5 3-15 with the RZ800 reticle. With a 200yd zero at 13x the crosshairs are pretty much dead on out to 800. That being said, I already told the outfitter that even though I have practiced a good bit and gotten pretty comfortable shooting 400, 500 and 600, if he can get me in close enough to hit the buck in the head with a rock there would be something extra in it for him. I'd rather prove my long distance skills on steel and shoot the buck at 50 ;-)

If the weather is a little more breezy I'll probably break out the 300. I have that set up a little different. Topped with a Vortex Razor HD, the Fierce Fury is one of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned and with the 180 accubonds running through the chrono at nearly 3200, the ballistic reticle doesn't really work well so I went back old school with a 300yd zero. It only prints about 6" - 7" low at 400 and about 18" at 500 at the range, which turned out to be a touch flatter than my ballistics calculator says it should shoot. Even though the Fury is fairly light (for a 300) it's still a pound or so heavier than the 270 and since the 300 has the 26" barrel plus 2" muzzle brake, the Tikka just handles and balances better.

I planned on using the 270 in the beginning but between the outfitter telling me he uses a 300wm with partitions on everything, the fact that almost nobody else at the range was shooting their 270's past 300 and the load of articles out their saying the 270 can't handle the wind had me second guessing my old faithful 270. The vast majority of my deer hunting is done with either the 25-06 or my 7mm08, both Steyr's and both shoot better than I can. For this longer range hunt, I wanted a little more bullet weight than my 25 with the 115 partitions and a little flatter trajectory than my 7-08 140 accubonds.

Besides, if I only use the '06 and 7-08 all the time, it's hard to justify to my wife that I need the 270 for the 195-213lb deer and the 300 for the 245-270lb deer!