When I found 24 Hour Campfire, I was shickled titless to find a place where I could read the give and take of the likes of Mule Deer, Ken Howell, Phil Shoemaker and Steve Timm.
However, I am afraid 24 Hour Campfire is starting to deteriorate.
Itseems the forum is being taken over by a few "jackals" for lack of a better word, that lurk in one or more forums, and feel honor bound to post their opinions on every post, regardless of their level of expertise. If anyone dares to differ from their opinion by one iota, a most scathing personal rebuke is sure to follow. It seems as though as days go by, 24 Hour Campfire is dominated more by them, and less by the real deals.
Pareto, an old scholar, has been credited with the 80/20 rule that says something to the effect that 80% of any problem is caused by 20% of the people involved. That seems to apply here, I think 80% of us are here to be entertained and informed. The onanists that comprise the other 20% are here for no good.
My question to everyone, is, is it possible to create a forum like this, and somehow have it moderated well enough to exclude this 20% long before they p*** off all the gunwriters and everyone else? I would be willing to pay a modest amount to have access to a forum like that.
Also, if there are any gunwriters that haven't left in disgust, I'd like to know what three changes could be made so their experience here would be at least as pleasant as a root canal.
Thanks, all.

Royce

It's not just the 24 hour campfire. There are all sorts of arm-chair experts, on every forum on the internet.

Forums can be either tightly moderated, or just free-fire. Haven't seen much that would fall in between those two extremes.

Seems to be human nature.....

Great idea. Although I find the posts humerous at times, I'm finding a couple of posters very, very irritating. I too would like to see them banned in some manner and would pay a small fee to do so.

The gunwriters part of this forum is the ultimate portion of it that separates it from all the others.

Clearly, this "experts" abillity to assert himself has already diminished the flow of real information.

I am disappointed that progressive efforts to stiffle an obvious disturbance have not been taken, in lieu of losing the open-participation of true experts. As well as fine gentlemen.

Where's the principle???

How would you define what's allowed and what's not? Something that bugs the hell out of me may be entertaining to you and vice versa. I vote to leave it as is. Most can tell pretty quickly who the idiots are anyway.

I think that you bring up some good points. I have limited my reading and participation in many places for this very reason.

I would respectfully suggest that it's not the �Trolls� that are the problem it�s the ones who have to keep responding to them. They then get the attention they crave and keep at it, if you ignore them they go away.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! (I read that in another post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Just don't respond. Walk away. Ignore it. Change the subject. If you want to keep a troll or self proclaimed expert going, keep talking to them.

Some folks here are as much a problem as the original "problem poster". I can see them sitting at their keyboards fuming and sputtering, they just HAVE to respond to a post they disagree with like a junkie needs a fix. Well, just say no. Don't respond. It takes a lot of will power, I've had to force myself away from the keyboard many times, but it's the ONLY way.

ANY response - saying that ***You are ignoring this user*** is still a response, feeds them. NO response is the only way to handle it.

So just DFTFT and they will go away.

On banning:

1] This forum was founded and populated by a group of folks with very definite opinions on that. I have not forgotten the mistakes of others. The red button is to be used very, very judiciously.

2] I could never ban all the trolls in cyberspace. There's always another.

3] You'd be surprised at how regularly posters considered trolls by some are highly regarded by others. Put another way, almost everyone is a troll to someone. That said, yeah, some trolls are trolls no matter who thinks they're not.

4] DFTFT.

5] For those moving into expert status, the fishing seems to be good year-round, everywhere. If you're unsure, consult an expert.

6] DFTFT.

Rick

oh yea. I resemble that remark. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Beyond "trolls", there are some pretty large self inflated egos sitting around the Campfire. My observation is that the Campfire is a bit "clique" prone and a welcome isn't always extended to new or inexperienced posters.

+1.

Something we need to work on, for sure.

Rick

No way. Everyone gets their say.

If you consider it BS, just click your mouse.

I vote with Elk. The easiest way to turn off nitwits is to not listne to them, and for God's sake don't respond.

I tried to reason with a recent one here, but it was like reasoning with a 12-year-old meth addict. So I quit.

MD

I regularly read a variety of online forums: hunting/shooting, environmental/conservation issues, politics, antique tractors and assorted other topics that interest me.

Have always been more of a reader than a poster on most of them, 'cause my Pappy told me you'll learn more with your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut, than the other way around. He was seldom wrong about such things.

Every site I've ever participated in has its share of self-proclaimed experts and/or attention-seeking trolls, that like to make a commotion whenever the opportunity presents itself. I actually feel sympathy for some of them and the miserable lives they must lead.

Some ignore them, others like to bait' em on and enjoy the predictable tussles. It's a matter of personal choice, although if there ain't nuffin much good to read or entertaining on TV, some that normally ignore such idjuts, might decide to have some fun themselves.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

People are funny, seldom matters where they are or what they're doing. Some are just funnier than others.

Have to agree wth you and Elk. That's why my posting has become less frequent. I've run out of stuff to say and experience to back it up, and responding to trolls is self-defeating. I remember the one you were responding to, and thought you exhibited admirable restraint in the face of ignorance. Glad you guys are with us.
Mike

I don't see the problem. Unlike some other forums, 24-H has an "Ignore this user" capability; click on the guy's handle, press the button, and all you see of their posts is, "*** You are ignoring this user ***." The problem is solved, and your stress level drops.

There are several folks in 24-H - not necessarily the ones most recently mentioned - that I've banished because they add nothing to any discussion but irritation or pointless wisecracks. My life is improved by a small but measurable amount...

Jaywalker

Anytime a large herd moves through a civilized area there is generaly a lot of s**t to clean up... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure how this would work, but I'd love it if the "ignore" feature didn't even change the message body to ***** YOU ARE IGNORING THIS USE ***** .... I'd rather see NOTHING ... meaning, on MY computer, I'd not even know they existed on the forum, other than possibly seeing someone else's post that is responding to theirs ... I want ignore to mean ignore, and allow me the most opportunity to forget that they are even a member here ... and the reason is, I have a morbid curiosity about things, and seeing that the user has posted a message aggravates me because I can't see it ... Like I said, I'd rather not even know they posted ... Seeing that message under their name saying thate you're ignoring them is like a big blinking light reminding me of them ...

but all that is just wishful thinking, and it's probably not even possible to do ... just thought I'd throw it out though, .... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I really wish I knew what the rest of you are writing.

All I see are my own posts and page after page after page of *** You are ignoring this user ***.

See, I just put EVERYONE on ignore. With that and my recently increased dosage of lithium, life is good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WTH ever happened to that Jim In Idaho guy that once posted here?

I thought it was Jim Ignore?? But seriously the diversity here is great. I'm with dubePA in the "shut up and listen" club. Grandfather and father both taught me alot with that philosophy. If some folks tend to be know it alls I can just as easily shut up and NOT listen. It is funny at times to see some folks play Mr. Maytag and agitate. Mostly though it's a good lesson in human nature just reading what others have to say...

11,534 members...11,534 unique personalities...11,534 opinions. Yet we suffer not much more than a pizzin' match once in a while.

What makes this place unique to anywhere I've seen so far is that all 11,534 members are allowed to voice whatever opinion they want to...or they don't, for whatever reason. Would be just another very boring place that resembles a crappy gun rag without that...and probably far fewer members as well.

What happens here is what folks want or they wouldn't join and post...you just need a thick skin some of the time...more often than not, folks make up and come to an understanding and all is well.

Take my very post here now for example with regards to the sentiment expressed so far in this thread...I don't visit "gun writers" much to make posts here cause I'm not a gun writer...and to be honest some of the topics discussed don't interest me at all. I cruz through and read a thread once in a while but in general I just go to what interests me elsewhere...

Yet, I post here now risking getting flamed for my opinion...so be it. I'm allowed to post here...no sign on the door saying I can't. But it does happen occasionally, to me and to others. I make my mistake by defending my opinion when that happens as others here feel they need to do also. Sometimes it gets ugly. If everyone here that posts is supposed to be an expert and the non posters just readers...then this place will die.

This continent we live on is a big place...the Campfire is a diverse cross section of it ALL. From wealthy professional hunter traveling far and away to the poor local guy who is lucky to hunt in his backyard let alone lucky enough to own a gun to hunt with. We got it all here...and it's a good thing. I know my turf and you know yours, sometimes the two views can't coincide due to geographical or social barriers even though we talk about the same thing. What works here might not work there and folks need to understand that and not flame a guy for wanting to voice an opinion on it.

When the dust settles though, there is collective knowledge which someone will learn from.

I've never been west of the Mississippi...never hunted elk or mule deer or big bears...but, I do as well as anyone in my environment. There are players and non players right here in my local...the Game Played though might not be on the same level as it is 3000 miles away. Doesn't mean I need to be ashamed or in awe...and it doesn't mean I need to be put down for it either.

Rifles...is where I do fall in awe...this place is full of toys I drool over. But, like many here of the 11,534 members...I've never had the ability to build custom gun after custom gun for the sake of custom guns. The cookies just don't fall right for some folks. So I/we do as best we can and learn how to get some darn good things going with stock gear...does that make us the Network Idiots?

No amount of Guru speak from the experts is gonna change the amount of cash flow it takes to build big dollar guns, but don't fault anyone for wanting to be part of the Game Played with basic tools. I kinda snicker a bit at reading what the expensive customs will do and know I got tweaked factory rigs that'll do the same thing. That's a concept a few here can't grasp, and I've been flamed for voicing that...but oh well.....

This place is all about hunting and guns...two things I hold dear to my being. I'd not be without any of it and greatly enjoy the ability to talk to others of like mind. The Campfire is a good place and the 11,534 members list is what makes it so.

Since a bunch of the hotheads have taken my advice an set a up little bitch session for themselves, here's some advice on how to stay out of trouble"

* Expertise is relative. You may be an expert on shooting at the local pool hall, but when you post on a national website, you may encounter someone who has done and knows a whole lot more than you do about some particular subjects. Some of us like to meet those people. Some of you are threatened by it. Grow up.

* If you don't like the opinion of someone else, try to bring some factual information to back up your opinion on the subject.

* Keep your opinion on the subject, not your imagination about the other person.

* Recognize that if your facts are a few hunting incidents, and the other evidence is an extensive set of laboratory and field uses by ballistic engineers, forensic law enforcement, or the military, that your opinion doesn't carry near the value that you might think it does.

* If all you can do is engage in insults and fantasizing that the other person is a poor shot, never hunted, never held a job, or some other lame delusional crutch, don't bother to post.

* If you do post trash talk, don't be surprised if your bullying doesn't have the intended effect of making them leave for fresh air. They may just call your bluff. If you acted like that in public, someone would beat your butt three times a week until you straightened up. Just because you are hiding behind 1,000 miles of telephone line is no reason to expect to get away with it here.

I really like that suggestion to only bring factual information to the discussion - how about we amend that a bit, and require some photographic evidence before we accept new information?

Naturally, published writers would already be covered.....

Whadda ya think?

I agree, and as soon as I find willing twins you will have photographic evidence..........grin

I sense the presence of a fragile ego in our midst...the big question is is it being ignored???

Steelhead-Finding twins may not be so hard but photogenic ones???There may lie the rub...

Lee I haven't read everything you've posted, just enough to let me know where you are coming from. (hint, it ain't a good place)

Steelhead photogenic is anything that don't make me puke or break your camera, post those pics and let the good times roll.

Roy, that was a damn fine post.

Could not have said it any better myself!

* When your experience killing an animal says nothing to dispute the greater experience and more careful observations of experts, realize that posting a picture of it does nothing to make it relevant.

I think a lot of the animosity arises from people who simply do not understand the difference between opinion and fact. Having no formal training in the gathering and evaluation of field data, and no practice in it, they also mistakenly believe that their limited experience with the exceptional can be extrapolated as the norm. Even worse, they dismiss the engineers at bullet companies, law enforcement laboratories, and military weapons testing facilities, simply because they don't understand or don't like the evidence gathered by those tests and autopsies.

As a new member, I've found I spend more time reading than posting. Think I'm on the right track?

You're doing better than me. I need to re-focus.

[color:"blue"] "If you acted like that in public, someone would beat your butt three times a week until you straightened up. Just because you are hiding behind 1,000 miles of telephone line is no reason to expect to get away with it here." [/color]

Think about your quote there. Spewing your "expertise" would probably earn you the same treatment over a real campfire.

So.... help us out here, Lee..... are 'facts' that are made up as good as regular facts, or do we rank them somewhere between facts and opinions? Or maybe they're better than regular facts?

Naturally, when a picture or other physical evidence disputes a 'fact,' then we are to ignore that evidence.... correct?

While we're at it.... let's rank members too. How about this:

1. Members who claim to be engineers are at the top.

2. Members who can prove to be engineers aren't as good, obviously, since they have to prove themeselves.

3. Members who have killed something are down below that.... since if they were claiming to be engineers they wouldn't have to actually do anything to be knowledgable.

4. Members who are labeled as 'non-technical' by members who are claiming to be engineers ....

5. and finally, writers, because they clearly don't have a technical education, and actually might do something and then write about it and provide evidence to the public which contradicts known 'facts' and we can see what a pile of problems that is going to cause.

Sound about right?

Only thing I know is that I am damned glad that my hunting camps aren't anywhere as contentious as this forum. For whatever reason there seems to be some pretty grumpy folks with a hair trigger lurking. Maybe the middle of July just ain't a good time for us. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The only time I have seen a hunting camp get as frisky as this forum is when we decided to play hearts instead of poker one time. Spent the whole night breaking up fights and the whole morning making peace. Never again!

Will

If I only want to talk to engineers and scientists, I can do that at work. There are a lot of self-taught hobbyists who know more than PhDs on a subject. There are a lot more who don't know how little they know. I find it amusing when those who have no respect for genuine techical knowledge act insulted for being labeled "nontechnical", when they were acting so proud of it.

Even this discussion is heading south.

the folks on www.tacticalforums.com run a really tight ship. when you register on the forum they screen your submission for a couple days, and don't grant membership to everyone. Just for grins I registered with as little personal info as possible, and sure enough I was denied a logon. Newbies get bounced very quickly if they say something stupid, or particularly if they ask a question that has been answered numerous times before. The moderators expect you to go heavy on the search function before you ask a question. personally, I think they have gone too far the other way, but they do run a mighty tight ship and their posts are informative. they will toss a troll in less than a heartbeat.

"Onanists"............perfect diagnosis/classification. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My feeling about these concerns that have been raised is that I believe that most posts are offered as well intended answer's to someone's question(s) or comments. What seems to happen many times is that someone takes exception to those responses because they either don't understand the replies very well or they just pick out a sentence or two that they can find fault with. They then, oftentimes, take it personally for whatever reason and decide to run with it as if it was a personal affront.

If they didn't understand the question, all they would need to do would be to ask for clarification. If the initial poster takes exception to your question (asked in a non-confrontational manner) for whatever reason....just end your part of the involvement with that particular post. If clarification is offered and there are still comments to be made, state your opinion without disrespecting theirs and move on.

There are many members here that have far fewer posts than the more "senior" members. Senior meaning "time-in", not age or experience wise. There have been many senior members that have been quite helpful, constructive and just plain courteous to less senior members. A profound and encouraging # of senior members, actually. This says alot about these particular forum members as people and as team players. They set a very good example for the junior and/or younger members. Other's, well, not so....respectful. Getting your feet wet is never an easy thing to do, much less so when YOU THINK that all the other's in the pool are much more experienced swimmers than you are. If I were drowning, the last thing I'd do when a person extended himself to help me would be to ask how much experience he has in saving people before I allowed him to help me. I would like to think that he/she feels they have what it takes to assist me in a way that is going to benefit me and for no other reason.

There are probably many members here (seniors and juniors) that have a great deal more experience than I do concerning certain aspects of our shooting sports. I'm also fairly sure that just as many do not. When someone asks a question that I feel I am qualified to answer, I will attempt to assist them. If they choose to not read my comments because I don't have 1000+ posts, I haven't killed 10 elephants, 3 zebras, 9 polar bears, 4 liberals or for whatever other reason, so be it. There is no need to assume that posts made, are being made for any other reason than to be helpful.

I am just as guilty as the next member of "taking the bait" when it has been offered, jumping clean out of the water to engulf a few, actually. All the while, knowing better than to engage in that type of behavior. Many of us here are just competitive, opinionated SOB's that find it hard to resist those type of temptations or challenges. If we all made an effort to do so, I don't believe it would even be necessary to entertain any changes in the way we do business on this forum.

For the more "mature" members among us -- remember when we had "relations" in our younger years. Some were very memorable events while other's we would rather forget. Posts are like that. Some we learn from and will probably always remember. Other's we could care less about. But we sure never passed on or complained about the latter. Posts should be like that.

My .02's worth.

Royce,

Regarding your original post. You really surprised me, my friend. I thought that no one in the world even remembered Vilfredo Pareto, much less understood his work.

I wrote a term paper on Pareto in a graduate-level Sociology seminar about forty years ago and have seldom thought of him since. Thanks for bringing him up.

Personally, I just ignore the occasional person that feels the need to interrupt an otherwise logical and sane discussion. We have two members who can be counted on to do this; one has an incredible high number of posts and one is fairly new. Anyway, it's best to just consider the source, ignore the intrusion and hope that the interloper just goes away.

Works for me.

Steve

Steve,

For whatever it's worth, I've always found your down to earth and fundamental advice and experiences to be some of the most valuable and informative contributions offered on the campfire. I only wish you were around a bit more often but that's out of pure selfishness. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks

Of course, having said that, don't let any of it go to your head. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I was �old enough,� my beloved grandfather Fountain started taking me along on fox-hunts. But my mother insisted that he bring me back to the house not too late that night. Eventually, when I was four or five, she consented to let me stay out all night. I was in Hawg Heaven!

Many are the memories, of course � all cherished � from the odors of Doc�s old home-made soogans and the smells of his old �dog wagon,� to many other "little" details. This thread stirs-up some of 'em.

� We usually didn�t have a fire � just sat around in the dark of some pasture or country road and listened to the dogs� reports of their chase. Seldom any comment other than something like �They�re passing Thompkins�s grist mill� or �Sounds like Patterson�s old Belle wants Patterson to turn her loose so she can get-in on the fun.�

� When nonhunters came along and had to have a fire, there was a fire,of course � if we stayed in that spot long enough. But the conversation was sparse.

� Whenever someone felt that conversation was in order, there was conversation as long as it made sense � never any quarreling or nastiness.

� Inanity was ignored � not answered � and allowed to die.

Hicks and rednecks can be the finest of gentlemen.

Educated folk � especially those who�ve been educated beyond their intelligence or humility � can be awfully hard to tolerate.

We hicks and rednecks � including us who�ve been educated beyond our intelligence � know (a) how to ignore inanity and verbal animosity, and (b) how to have thoughts and even opinions without obsessively voicing them. As someone said long ago, it�s better to keep your mouth shut and be considered a fool than it is to speak and remove all doubt.

.

Mr. Ken - I couldn't agree more...

Yup, what Ken said.

Steve

Gee, wonder which 2 guys you could be referring to...or perhaps more correctly: wonder to which two guys you could be referring.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ken,

I love reading your posts. Always a voice of reason backed by knowledge.

Thanks

Gee, I wonder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Vilfredo Pareto, now that was COOL.

Steve

The fire mention reminded me of an early 'coon hunting foray about 40 years ago along the NY/PA border, with my king of the ridgerunners cousin.

Wasn't hard to keep warm while we were after the hounds, but when they got fond of a hollow and stayed there for awhile, I decided a fire might feel ok. Cuz and I were just sitting up in the woods above them, listening, while I rested my aching feet.

About the time I started assembling the fixin's, the dogs took off again. Cuz said go ahead and make a fire, it'll make it easier for me to find your gimpy arse if I don't get back over here before sun up.

Some of our kin have commented that he and I, (both only children), are more like brothers than cousins. Often gets mentioned at family reunions, that one of us hardly ever speaks, the other scarcely ever shuts up. I must be the one with the goose's ass for a mouth, 'cause I've been known to poke him with a stick to get a response.

Attribute his reticence to 50 years spent staring at the rear ends of far too many Holsteins, but he will occasionally divulge the whereabouts of a good buck, if poked enough.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

When I told my pal how my grandfather and a mule scared each other so bad that they both whirled and fell, he stopped the patrol car, put his head onto the steering wheel, and shook with laughter. When he'd recovered his composure enough to talk, he said that he'd walked so many miles through mules' [exhausts] (behind a plow on the farm), he could identify with the mule.

.

I have learned a great deal from the Campfire in the 2!/2 years I have been a member. There are know-it-alls every where involved in hunting, not just on the Campfire. My SCI chapter & hunt clubs have more than their share. I'm an engineer have hunted for over 55 years on 3 continents & have a lot of trophies & I am still learning. J. Barness is my favorite modern writer & Dwayne Adams my favorite guide. I learned more about glassing from Adams(over 15 years ago) than any other source.

DuWayne Adams of San Manuel is indeed a top-notch guide. Both he and his guide-buddy whom I hunted with in the early 1980s seemed down-right superhuman in their skill with their Zeisses.

.

I hope Lee24 reads this.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dogzapper
Thanks for the kind words.
Actually, I was being somewhat devious with my post. More than anything else, I was hoping if we cleared the air a bit, perhaps some people would be a little less pedantic and all of us could be a little more easy going.
It would be difficult for me to put a dollar value on this forum, for its immediate access to all of you gun writers that contribute your time, but it would be significant.
When ONE member can upset Mule Deer to the extent that he will no longer post on any thread that said member posts on, something has been taken away from me, and I resent that. That treatment of Mule Deer, or any other writer seems analagous to having a neighbor come over and change four flat tires, and then berating him for putting to much Never Seize on the lugs. It smacks of rudeness and ingratitude, both of which overshadow any real or perceived technical prowess.
By the way, I just dropped an '06 off at the local gunsmith to have opened up to Ackley Improved. Think it will kill an elk?

Royce

Royce, I don't recall my insulting Mule Deer.
Perhaps you are just hiding behind his skirt, crawfishing away from the fight you started.
Are you afraid your childish antics might run off more people than you intended?

Mule Deer already apologized for one of his insults. I accept.

I have certainly not let some of the punks here get away with their bullying, but I don't start fights. If you can point me to where you think I did, do it. If not, apologize.

Due to my take on the most recent posts, the realization that this subject was brought up to target one or two individuals makes the offering of my comments and suggestions seem useless, at best. My comments were shared with the belief that they might actually serve some purpose in helping to make this forum a bit more cohesive and/or respectful. It is obvious that mine and perhaps other's comments were just taking up space rather than being viewed as viable suggestions.

Appreciate the eventual honesty in stating that this post had ulterior motives from the get go, but that does very little in the way of mending fences, whether the concerned members care or not.

A bit of sour grapes....to be expected given the circumstances. Never much liked being an unwilling participant. Nothing that I can't overcome. More the point of being a waste of my time and energy, and other members perhaps, than anything else. Didn't expect the intent nor the outcome to be what it was.

Yeah, Royce's post was pretty specifically directed to certain individuals, but the problem is ongoing and evidently endemic to the Internet. So your comments were welcome.

MD

Appreciate the response Mule Deer. You seem to be just as much an unwilling participant in this thread as I. Your point about being on-going and endemic is well taken and unfortunately, quite true.

Personality issues as well as malcontents in general can't stay hidden for very long. I truly expect that they try, but essentially you are what you are and it gets the best of them. Being that these communications are via the internet just makes expressing their anger and frustrations that much easier. I would have to assume that bridges burned during their earlier years may have limited their access to those around them. The internet and more specifically, this forum, gave them the opportunity to, once again, find new hosts.

Not one to ride on others wagons, but I do look forward to each of your articles and posts as I seem to glean more useful information from yours than from all others. Just being yourself and sharing your experiences without regard to eggshells is, in itself, quite telling and seems to set you apart.

Thank you again Mule Deer and may you have continued success in all that you do.

It is truly amazing how many engineers think that just because they are engineers what they say is the absolute truth on the matter and they try to buffalo other folks into accepting whatever they say as being the gospel truth. THOSE kinds of engineers you can spot a mile away. Engineers are no better or worse than folks of any other profession.

To hold yourself out as an engineer, legally, you have to be registered with the state as a "registered professional engineer." You can go to most state technical board's website and see the disciplinary action taken against registered professional engineers (who have to pass two 8 hour test, have a 4-year engineering degree, and 4 years experience) how are just plain incompentent.

Engineers can be odd. Just this week one shoot and killed another in Omaha. The deceased was a civil engineer who was murdered by a former employee, an electrical engineer.

So, just because you're an engineer (or claim to be) doesn't mean jack. It is what you say, what you do, your experiences, your first-hand knowledge and how you convey and communicate it to others that counts.

That being said, please don't lump all engineers in the same basket. Just like lawyers, were not all the same and if you look long and hard enough you might actually find one you like.

Bret

PS-I've been a registered professional engineer for over 20 years and I make my living correcting other engineers mistakes. Nope, don't use a pocket protector anymore and my the color of my socks match on most days.

Are you holding yourself out to be a firearms engineer, ammunition engineer, or ballistics armor engineer? What you actually know and do for a living does mean jack. If you want to discuss the engineer aspects of one of the topics here, do it, as a professional would.

People form opinions which they believe to be facts. One incident I vividly remember was a VERY experienced hunter friend who shot a spike mule deer buck with his old M721 30-06. The deer was less than a hundred yards away, standing broadside. He fired three times and the buck finally fell. Ammo used was the old CIL 180 gr KKSP RN. All three bullets went thru the lungs in about a 6 inch group. The most amazing part was that all three bullets were found at the hide on the off side, severely expanded but still intact. Did I conclude that the old 30-06 was no good for deer - no. In over 30 years using that rifle and load he killed well over a hundred amimals with excellent results. In fact after his deer fell he handed the rifle to me and I shot the bucks twin brother in the same place, this one fell like a sack of sand. Ya just never know

The tone/timbre of a response can speak ahead of the knowledge. People can read body language when talking face to face. On here we can only read the words. Adults seem to be annoyed most by other adults that act as if they know/own/and have experienced more than everyone else. Even if they truly have. Some say I don't care what others think. (Yes they do-thats why they talk the talk). Tone/Timbre. Choose your words wisely.

I usually dont reply to TROLLS but Lee why dont you take your OWN advice. You talk about expertise yet support it with no physical evidence. I have been on many forums but you just dont know when to shut the hell up, if you think anyone would be afraid of a do-it-all, wonder genius like yourself is laughable.Hiding behind telephone lines? I think people would line up to straighten your s**t out, like EVERYONE else i will no longer reply or listen to your B.S. and trolls like you bring the level of discussion to the toilet, do everyone a favor GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!

Being relatively new here, I like democracy, so I prefer to live with everyone's opinion.

When I have done ballistic seminars, I seldom got any detractors because the format was public. People also tended to hold back until they got to sound you out because the man with the microphone usually wins.

This format is a little different because you are not being gazed upon by the other viewers. You are not critizied if you stomp the wrong key and misspell. We have tollerance for opinion because we can click the mouse and leave.

If you disagree, my advise is to disagree. But... and there is always an argument to insert a "But" there is no excuse for cheap shots.

Our sport is opinionated. "But"...... no more than the car industry, ar any other. People are people, never set rules to silence another.

In this forum any man can be castigated by others and still be right because his level of knowledge and experience cannot be really known by his critics.

Many tone things down so they do not sound like a bag of wind.

Let me site 2 examples of superior expience that are hard to conceive by many others:

1. I was approached by a Texas outfitter to offer the members of the hunting club, for which I was president, discount hog hunts @ $250USD per animal. I was told that was cheap.

I responded that many of our members had killed thousands of pigs for nothing and regularly killed a couple of hundred in a matter of days. I had articles and supporting pics coming in from members for our magazine to prove it. Experience? Who knew more?

2. We have all heard the experts that kill an animal or two and know all. Geoff Mcdonald from Woodleigh Bullets hunts with a man who has 10,000 buffalo kills to his credit. Imaging what that level of intimate experience means in terms of bullet construction, calibers, shot polacement etc.

If you don't agree with someone, ask for more info or disagree. There is no need for cheap shots. A dope usually walks around with a neon sign over him anyway, sooner or later he will switch it on.

AGW

Well said as usual, Ken.

I have at times been drawn into pizzing matches but I think with old age, comes wisdom.

I now "consider the source", & most times reach the conclusion that its just not worth it, & move on to the next post.

Was it Yogi Berra who said the 90% of the world is below average? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

badger