So there is the book USE ENOUGH GUN. That phrase is usually interpreted as meaning “more is better” or “bigger is better”.

I have generally observed that there is a direct correlation between the distance travelled or the price of the trip and the size of the cartridge. Example: traveling to Africa the bwana needs a 300 RUM for the same game on which the locals use 243’s and 308’s.

Draw a desert sheep permit and the lucky hunter now “must have” a 26 Nosler rather than the 243AI which he has used to knock off many pronghorns and mule deer. It takes a big desert sheep to be as big as a mature mule deer.

At SCI and DSC and Wild Sheep there is a big demand for 28 Nosler’s and 300 PRC’s and 300 Ultra’s. These guys are not uninformed or dummies but the drive to get a bigger “enough” cartridge is substantial.

Your thoughts.

I'd rather have MORE than enuff than......

just not quite enuff, or almost enuff.


Jerry

I bought a .35 Whelen 29 years ago because I felt undergunned with a .308 Win in Montucky with ol’ griz wandering about. About a dozen years ago I bought my 7mm Weatherby to reach out a bit farther in open country. Eight or nine years ago I stumbled upon a like new .300 Weatherby Fibermark at an absolute steal while looking for a .257 Roy and never looked back. With the right load, those 3 will kill anything on the planet.

I've never travel far to hunt, so I can't reasonably respond. You need to hear what hunters who hunt near and far actually do.

I thot he DID :

Sometimes, and I probably would be in this group, but with a LOT of actual shooting and training under my belt, if I spent money especially on once in a lifetime trip kind of thing, I"ll take the best I can get and handle.

That might sure mean magnum of the flatter/faster etc... for that once in a lifetime shot, long shot, windy shot, walking away with the head down... might be for the drop or lack of, drift, or lack of, or simply power.

When around "normal" I grab whatever and can deal with passing shots, and I"ve passed more than a few because I grabbed a 150 yard gun and the pigs were at 350 plus.... with deer in the way and so on... no big deal.

When its a big deal, you come prepared IMHO. Or prepared to go home empty handed. Which doesn't bother me generally speaking, unless I was dumb enough to bring the 30-30 on a caribou hunt and only had a 400 yard shot.
Wait lets see, I took my recurve on what I figured might be my only caribou hunt, and so far it has been, but I did manage to borrow my buddies 338 when the only bull we got close to was a shade over 800 and all by himself...

I hunt local and travel...US and Canada anyways. I use a 270 for absolutely everything. I’ve come to this after owning and loading for tons of rifles. It just works. Shoots flat, kills everything and doesn’t punish with excessive recoil. Same could be said for a 280 or 7/08. 270 just happened to be the one that showed me the light. I sold everything else, built two and spend the time and money I would have waisted on the never ending parade of guns on hunting and shooting

I like that. Have come back home to my 30-06 in recent years and it has performed very well.

Regards, Guy

About 37 years ago, I decided that I wanted one rifle to do all of my big game hunting. Alaska, and Africa were on my bucket list, so I chose a rifle that would be at home for those purposes. I bought a Win. Model 70 in .375 H&H for my “do it all” rifle...the legal minimum for some African game. Though, most everyone thought it was unnecessary, even ridiculous for Whitetails in Louisiana. Truth being, at normal shooting distances....it created much less bloodshot meat with similar impact points than that of a 130 grain 270 Win. Too much rifle.....no such thing. More than what was needed...the obvious answer is yes.

Fast forward a few years, I’m living and hunting in Wyoming. I had the opportunity to meet and spend time with experienced hunters and a couple of good gunsmiths. I learned more about firearms, learned of custom and semi-custom firearms and wildcat cartridges. After a few years of climbing steep ridges, and putting many miles on my boots, I began to realize that my Wood stocked, factory Win. Model 70 375 H&H, quite heavy and somewhat range limited....wasn’t the most practical “do it all” rifle. So, with my recently befriended and energetic young gunsmith friend..... we designed my new rifle. It had to be within my budget (limited), so, it’s just a semi-custom, based on a Win. Model 70 action. We got a 24” SS Douglas Match grade barrel in the lightest contour practical, chambered it in a 375 AI, put on express sights, with a barrel mounted front sling swivel ( hand will not get “bit” during recoil, and the muzzle is much lower when shouldered) at set it in a McMillan full length bedded stock, presently wearing a Leupold 3.5-10 CDS. It’s much lighter than my previous rifle, at 9 pounds 1 ounce....scoped, loaded, and slung. It’s almost impervious to the elements, and easily good out to 600 yards....farther if I want to be irresponsible!

I never made it too Alaska, or Africa, but I’ve never regretted my decision. So far, it’s only been used for antelope, deer, elk, moose, and sheep, here in Wyoming. It is my “do it all” rifle, and it may get to those “bucket list” places yet! I think you will see that my signature reflects my opinion on hunting rifles! memtb



Today you can buy factory rifles that nearly duplicate my semi-custom rifle (Kimber Talkeetna comes to mind), for a reasonable price. And if you want a little more “pop”, a good gunsmith can run a chamber reamer in it, convert it to an AI or Weatherby....and add another couple hundred yards to your hunting area!

If you can afford a sheep hunt, I would take a 20 pound 50BMG and hire an additional guide to carry it. Better safe than sorry. Wouldn’t want to run into a 401 yard shot at a ram and have that 340Wby not be enough!

Seriously? I see this as similar to hunting with single shot rifles or 6X scopes. We’re all recoil proof never-miss stone killers on here. But when it’s time to get off the bench and head into the bush, you can’t fake being comfortable with my examples. If you have used a decent 6mm type cartridge with good bullets, you KNOW it’s plenty for any shot at a sheep. If you haven’t that confidence, we default to more horsepower to buy confidence.

Balance logistics with ballistics: if you travel by air, then get something chambered for a commonly available cartridge for when (not if) the airline loses your bag. I went with a 30-06, but 308, 270, 7mm RM, 300 WM, or 338 WM are also good choices depending on where you're headed.


Okie John

This is exactly why I chose a 270 over a 280 or 7x57. Equal performance...same same recoil, same same trajectory, need ammo in a pinch?

Good advice above imho

Similar to what some others have posted, maybe "enough" is whatever delivers enough bullet to kill and to make hitting easier farther out, yet still within your skill level. More gun, provided you know how to use it and have the skill to use it, doesn't just buy confidence. It buys real capability too. That said, there are still limits, as no one wants to haul a .50 BMG or probably not even a .338 Lapua very far.

For me this has become a real simple question.....after owning and shooting almost everything from .218 Bee to .404 Jeffery, the answer is resoundingly......a .30-06.

short of a very few critters on the planet it is enough......and if one finds that it's not......it's quite possible that one needs to learn to shoot.

RE comment about less bloodshot... I"ve shot deer with my 50 bmg, almost no blood shot at all.

Folks that comment on mags sometimes don't really have a clue. Now if I drove some kind of light super fast, like dumb enough to shoot 300 mags with 150s or such.. then I'll have bloodshot...

RE another post about 6mm and sheep, as long as you have the energy you think is required I've no issues, but is your 6mm good at 600 for a full length stem to stern shot if thats all you had? Or on a 25K dollar hunt are you willing to walk away from the only shot you might get? Some of us are and thats very cool with me. Of course 308 is overkill on deer but we keep using it. When we aren't using the 10mm Glock 20s. LOL

Quote-worthy.

I'm one that believes a guy can buy and use whatever he desires as long as it's legal. Based on what is seen nowadays, as well as the pics a guy can see on various forums, in a hunting situation, seems like most people are over-scoped, and over-rifled.

7x64 Brenneke is ADEQUATE for rabbits...anything smaller and you have to pick the bloody things up.

Agreed!

That came from Robert Ruark, on his first trip to Africa. IIRC he shot a wart hog with his .220 Swift..hit it in the ham, and finished the pig off with an 06. He never used the Swift again on that hunt.
IMHO, a poor choice on his part of bullets used in the Swift, plus poor bullet placement. No fault of the cartridge.
Got to be a lesson here, as I understand a lot of guys use the much smaller .223 on pigs in this country. You guys are not using enough gun..

If you are hunting in your backyard, you can pass shots because you have time and tomorrow. If you traveled 24 hours whether by truck or airplane or any combination of transport, you want to be able to make whatever shot is presented. Bring "enough" or risk going home empty handed.
That being said, you want total confidence in what you shoot. Lots of stories of nimrods showing up with a new magnum or something they are afraid of.

I believe it was an article written by Bob Jourdan years ago, that suggested to choose a well constructed bullet, suitable for the non-dangerous big game (deer and such) intended, of at least .25 sectional density, and pushed as fast as the cartridge will allow, with the recoil you can tolerate. The 270 with a 130 grain bullet has an sd of .242 and hits all the other parameters. But i went with a .280 because the 140 grainer has an sd of .248 a little closer to .25, with a little bit more diameter and weight. I can't fathom how a partition in either would fail if i did my part.

the 28 Nosler seems too much of a good thing. A hunting buddy has a 7mm Weatherby and swears by it. It is his lightning stick.

Seems to me we will have better success with training with what we now have and know.

This^^^^^ memtb

This^^^^^ memtb

Memtb...isn`t the quote you use by Bob Hagel exactly the answer the OP was looking for?

Thanks CGPaul, That was my interpretation! My novel was merely stating that I chose one rifle to “do it all”, and so far it’s worked for me. Is it necessary for any NA game short of Coastal Browns, as stated ....an emphatic “NO”! Within reason, there’s no such thing as too much gun.....for big game. However, it may be,too much gun....for the shooter! This is a decision that the hunter must make. memtb

memtb,

Which is why some gun writer published a book a while back with a chapter titled, "Just Enough Gun."

long time ago, with little money, i wanted to buy a new left handed rifle. i was hanging around wolf publishing, and asked Dave and some of the writers what i should get. The consensus was a remington 700bdl in left hand bolt, in 30.06. They told me it wasn't the best for many situations, but would work okay in almost all situations. I bought that rifle, used it a few times, then being a loonie bought a lot of other rifles including a number of magnums. I could never get their advice tho out of my mind.
so a few years ago i loaded some barnes 180's for the 30.06, and went and shot an elk. I was quite impressive what that barnes bullet did.
it only took me about 40 years to find out they were right all along.
That might not be true all around the world, but for what i was to go after, it was good advice.
the issue that does come into play tho, is if you don't get a perfect shot. I have seen people using 25.06 on an elk. Yeah it will kill them, but what if elk is moving, quartering, and you don't get that perfect shot. A little more horsepower is comfortable.

A ton of overkill beats an ounce of underkill.

Been there on both sides, and prefer some margin.

Do you think loonies ponder this question so we can convince ourselves we need to purchase another one?

To me there is a difference between "enough' and "overkill'. Maybe a better way to ask the question is to name the game and the terrain conditions, then apply a rifle and caliber to the task.

More likely to explain the newest purchases to she-who-must-be-obeyed-or-else-no-supper.

Correct for whilst a 7x64 is adequate for rabbits a 458 is bordering on overkill...costs more.

I like simple rules.
I look for a SD of .275 or better.
I pay attention to bullet construction. I like exit wounds. I hope to be able to take shots at poor angles, through some bone if necessary.
If I can get more than 3000 fps, I consider a heavier bullet as opposed to more velocity.
If I'm worried about adequacy of a high SD bullet at 3000 to do the above, I look for more bore diameter.

There are sometimes reasons to deviate from the above, but it is a good place to start. I have a friend who hunts deer in Louisiana swamp country, where tracking is not easy. He really wants "dead right there." He prefers quick opening 150 grain bullets from a .300 WSM, and sticks to broadside shots (or at least says he does.)

Mule Deer, I have no qualms with that! I merely went with the concept, of using one rifle for “any” game that I may “ever” encounter! I certainly do not look down upon those that have a firearm specialized for a specific job, I simply chose a different direction. We have the capability to be “more game specific” in firearm selection....but chose not too. I’ll “not” be convinced that we’re wrong.....just different! memtb

Great statement.... should be someone’s signature line! memtb

My experience is that an ounce of over-gunned is far worse. Have seen it many times, probably because my job has allowed me to observe many other hunters in action.

In "Just Enough Gun" I describe one of those other hunters, a guy from Lichtenstein who was one of the other hunters in camp on a multi-species horsepack hunt in northern British Columbia. He'd hunted with the outfitter before for Stone sheep using a rifle in 7x64 Brenneke, essentially a .280 Remington, taking his ram with one shot. But this time he was after caribou, elk and moose. He somehow believed a bigger gun was necessary for the elk and moose, so left the 7x64 at home and brought a brand-new .300 Winchester Magnum. His first 3-shot group at 100 yards from the camp benchrest measured around 18 inches, and while things improved slightly after that, he took over 20 shots to kill his caribou, elk and moose.

Quite a few hunters start to flinch at .300 magnum lever recoil. This is not just my experience but that of several outfitters and guides I've encountered. One is John Stuver of Broadus, Montana, who says about 20% of his mule deer hunters who show up with a .300 magnum can't consistently kill a buck at 200 yards. Often the .300 is new, like the Lichtenstein hunter's, because they somehow think the .243., 270 or .308 they usually hunt whitetails with back home isn't enough for mule deer in open country. Another long-time African PH I knew, Finn Aaagard, was a little more generous, saying 2/3 of clients who brought a .300 magnum didn't shoot their rifle well.

On that BC hunt I brought a .300 Winchester Magnum and a 9.3x62 Mauser. Killed my moose with one shot from the 9.3, and a 6x6 elk with one shot from the .300. (Never saw a caribou I wanted.) But since then all my elk have been shot with smaller cartridges, and they killed just as well, and another western Canadian moose taken with the 7x57 went about five more yards than the 9.3x62 bull.

Hunters should use whatever rifle they feel confident with, but my experience is that "confidence" in a larger, harder-kicking cartridge is often misplaced--especially when a hunter headed on his first Big Trip away from home takes the advice of his buddies, who often have never hunted elk or African plains game, but have heard about how tough they are.

I have yet to see a vast difference in how most big game cartridges kill such game, as long as the shot's put in the right place, both in North America and Africa, and with today's bullets angling shots aren't a problem either, or breaking shoulders. In fact, the longer I observe other hunters, the more I'm convinced most don't differentiate between shoulder and behind-the-shoulder shots when describing the effects of various cartridges, and tend to choose examples of shoulder shots when describing the terrific killing power of their favorite round.

I also know RinB very well, and wonder about the intent of his question, partly because I know he's killed considerable BIG game with the .270 Winchester.

Great post. That has been my experience, and what I have observed, exactly.

I am beginning to understand the nuances of this question as you professional people are trying to communicate.

Personally I would not consider hunting with a rifle I couldn't shoot well or was timid about.

But my observation of people hunting with bows, it is easy for me to see those that are " over bowed" and can't handle the weapon reliably. And there are a lot of them!

So I guess there would be a percentage of the population that hunt " overgunned."

Thanks, Jordan.

Might also mention that the common notion of a larger cartridge killing better with off-center hits is also iffy. Finn Aagaard guessed it might help if the shot is only off a couple inches, but not otherwise.

A good example might be blue wildebeest in Africa, often considered the toughest of all the plains game. Have seen quite a few shot over the years with cartridges from the .270 Winchester and 7mm-08 Remington to .375 H&H and .375 Ruger. The only two I've seen lost were both shot with that pair of .375's, because both shots were well off center. The first was a frontal shot with the .375 H&H, which didn't go where aimed at around 150 yards because (it turned out) the scope had gone bonkers. From the blood trail, it looked like the bullet landed in one shoulder, instead of the center of the chest. The other was gut-shot with the .375 Ruger, standing broadside at around 250 yards. The bullets used were both well-proven premium soft-points of over 250 grains.

With the .270 and 7mm-08 the bullets weighed 150 and 140 grains, and again were proven lead-core softpoints. Both bulls were shot at the rear edge of the shoulder, more or less broadside, and went about 50 yards before keeling over.

Angus,

Quite a few hunters are over-gunned, especially going on Big Trips. I once spent a month in Africa on a big meat-hunt, where a dozen other hunters participated; plenty of trophies were also taken. All but one of the other hunters had never been to Africa before, and several brought two rifles, one chambered for a lighter cartridge like the .270, 7mm-08 or 7x57 for shooting "deer-sized" animals, and a bigger rifle chambered for anything from the .300 Winchester Magum to the .375 H&H. Since they were all doing a lot more shooting than they were used to back home, several developed a flinch with their big rifle after the first week or so. They then wisely switched to their smaller rifle, which worked just fine on the bigger-than-deer game, because they put the bullet in the right place. In fact, that's the hunt where I saw blue wildebeest taken with the .270 and 7-08.

Some of the hunters could shoot bigger guns well, so also did fine.

^^^^^
JB knows a thing or two because he's seen a thing or two!

I started this discussion to hear the various points of view. The responses mirror thoughts that I have had at different times in my “career”. Over the last few years my views have changed a lot. I have also had to review my own prejudices. Remember, a prejudice is but a thought that has gotten “hard” based on experience or knowledge or, dare I say, ignorance. We humans tend to defend our own point of view “just because”.

I have used a 270 with 130 bullets on a large number of critters with reputations for being tough. I have watched lots of guys use big 30’s and larger on the same animals. The single biggest variable was marksmanship. I used something that either helped me or at least didn’t hinder me.

I used to have a strong preference for monolithic bullets but that has changed. I still pick them for hunting African plains game because the conditions there favor full penetration (herd animals and hard ground and thick cover). Today I have proven to myself that lead core bullets are more likely to produce DRT.

I used to want lots of velocity but now I will “give up” some velocity for very high bc bullets. I used to want 3100 but today, with the right bullet, I am good with 2700. Humm...who wrote something about the magic of 2700?

Marksmanship (ie shot placement) rules all else if combined with a reasonably designed bullet. As a bonus, as muzzle velocities drop, more bullets meet the “reasonably designed” standard. Start a bullet slower and it performs better and if it has a very high bc, that better performance window is extended over a long range.

So the primary question is: does my combination of cartridge, rifle, and bullet help my marksmanship?

Two other thoughts:

1. Jeff Cooper said “load a handgun for power, load a rifle for accuracy “.

2. Even a 300 Savage is flat enough to 300 yards.

John, I couldn’t agree more with your observations and conclusions, which is my reasoning behind my decision. If, I use this rifle exclusively, for everything (including the occasional coyote calling)....I will quickly learn “when” it is too much rifle! We that day comes, I will re-evaluate my rifle/cartridge choice. My choice is certainly not “a one size fits all” recommendation! memtb

Rick, For rifles, I like both...velocity and accuracy. With 250 TTSX’s @ 3130 and sub 2” groups (3 shots), at 300 yards....I’ve got both. I can’t do sub 2” every time, but often enough to be pretty confident. memtb

2700 fps and good bullets screams 30-06 (grin)

Good stuff!

Memtb, thank you.

Fun thread. Nuances is right!

I would add the corollary “use enough bullet”. As has been said on this forum many times, a good bullet designed for the task is usually more important than bore size.

In my use of words, overkill means more energy/destruction of tissue/penetration than the minimum needed to kill an animal within a reasonable time.

Over gunned is an excellent term for using a gun with greater recoil/muzzle blast or other factors that the shooter cannot fire without physical disruption of the shot. Over gunned diminishes the shooter's ability to hit what he wants to hit.

Underkill to me means not enough energy/tissue destruction/penetration to kill the animal in a reasonable time and within a findable distance. Rather than seek the lowest powered cartridge and bullet that will just barely do the job, I like to have some extra, i.e. overkill. I'll define my desired extras as deeper penetration than essential to kill, exit for a better chance of blood trail if needed, larger wound channel and tissue damage than the minimum needed to kill, and likely a few more if I think about it.

I have no problem with skilled hunters using centerfire 22's on big game and hunt with some of those as close and long time hunting partners. In coastal Alaska or Vancouver island I might well go to a 223 for blacktail deer, which has considerable margin on deer when using the right bullets. One friend of mine shoots everything with his 220 Swift, including moose and big bears. He has plenty of margin due to his skill.

I am a little bothered when it appears that a hunter is seeking the smallest lowest powered means to kill a big game animal, much like fishermen trying to set a record for biggest fish on lightest line-- except that the result is a lot harder on a lost animal than it is on a lost fish. Maybe no one does that with big game, and it is not my place to judge.

But my one-load-kills-all 180 grain Swift A-frame that I used for all big game hunting for a few years did a fine job on a small blacktail buck at 12 yards. You may rag on me at will! It also did a fine job on moose, elk, etc. during a time when I was too busy/lazy to work up multiple loads for my 30-06.

Okanagan, Good post.....well written! If I were still hunting the thickets of Louisiana, I may have to “tone it down” a bit, and maybe change bullets!! memtb

As to the .223 on pigs. I've shot a good many with a .223 with pretty good results, but it seems inadequate for the job on the big ones although in truth I've never failed to kill one that I've hit with it. They sometimes hike off a pretty fair distance and don't bleed much on the ground. I prefer .30-06 or .270W but when it comes to large groups of hogs when quick follow up is needed it is hard to beat the low to non existent recoil and the semi auto AR15 for acquiring subsequent targets on animals you don't need to retrieve. I suspect a lot of .223 users hunting hogs aren't worried about the hog dropping dead real quick. Most big game hunters aren't wanting a tracking job with no blood. As to being over gunned, I go to church with a girl that may weigh 130 and her husband has outfitted her with a 7MM STW for whitetail deer. She does shoot it pretty well but doesn't practice much.

I also think what metb said is very important.

If I am hunting near housing etc, I am Leary of screaming fast light bullets...richochet.

If I am stalking or bugling elk and may have some point blank work on a bigger critter bullet construction and durability would be a consideration.

The long range stuff.....I bring my 300 savage. That solves that deal, I don't shoot it much past 300...... period. Problem solved.

Guess my .460 is "overkill" and "too much gun" when I take it rabbit hunting. I see it this way,practice,practice and practice. When (if) I ever get to go hunt cape buffalo or (hopefully) elephant I will be familiar with the rifle and will be able to make a killing shot. I can load it up to where I can handle it,for instance the 500 grain Hornady DGX at 2300 fps. No cape buffalo is going to miss the 300 or 400 fps more that the .460 is capable of achieving.

If someone wants to get a bigger caliber/cartridge IMO get it 2-3 years before the big hunt and practice with it. If that person hand loads,start with "wimpy" loads and over time work up to more powerful loads.

An observation made while smiling.

There are two times that the terms “energy” and “sectional density” come into the conversation. One, in this conversation. The other? Is a 223 large enough to kill a deer.

Put a suitable bullet in the right place… it expands, penetrates. And doesn’t kersplode. Animal dies.

Sectional density is meaningless. Energy same.

Ken, I’ve always liked your style. I’d say you were adequately armed for “jacks”. Killed quite a few with my AI, but wasn’t smart enough to get photographic evidence. My philosophy exactly, practice with...what you will hunt with! memtb

Exactly! Practice,practice,practice....

When I'm getting ready for a hunt in the fall,I choose the rifle I want to use and go rabbit hunting. I start in September and go until the fall hunt. I also use the same load I'm going to use for that hunt on rabbits.

Ken, I think it was Col. Jeff Cooper that said....”train the way you will fight”! I may be wrong about who said that, getting old! memtb

Should have a book about “hitting the target while in the field.” Far more important than the cartridge.

There are a lot of them, books on hitting. Problem is people that believe shooting before season is just a waste of good ammo.
I personall know two guys this season that shot deer over bait at 65-70 yrds with their 06`s. Both found blood, but not the deer. What the he-- do you call that?

I witnessed a broadside shot on an Impala with a 300 WM where the Impala was not recovered. “Enough gun” only gets you so far.

Good, repeatable, instinctive technique counts for a lot. Pressure, fleeting opportunities, poor support (compared to bench), and excessive recoil all lead to poor shooting.

Took a .250 Savage 700 Classic with a 6x scope on my first pronghorn hunt. My buddies said I needed "more gun" to "reach out there". I can practice to 300 meters, so how much gun do I need? The shot was 187yds. My second trip was for pronghorn and mule deer. A 6.5x257AI made the longest shot I've ever taken on a game animal. 270yds. One and done. If I ever go for elk, the '06 will get the nod.

Clearly they need bigger guns to increase the margin for less than perfect shots, right?

Solid gold stuff here, and in my much more limited experience (50 African animals, a few hundred head of big game here in the US, guiding maybe 150 hunters over the past 15 years), I could not agree more. I will admit I've changed my tune over the past 6-8 years too, migrating from a 7mag to predominately using a 7-08 and lately the 6.5CM.

Amen... Rick nailed it.

Don’t look for us to give you an excuse RickD, we all know you’re going to do it and think “what was all the fuss about”

I thought the 6.5 Creedmoor solved that situation.

I wondered how long it would take for that. (Although I expected it not to be tongue-in-cheek.)

In keeping with the "enough gun" theory (and I think MD is familiar with what I am about to relate), Craig Boddington wrote he missed a chance at the biggest kudu in his life (and keep in mind the man has over 150(!) safaris under his belt), because at the last minute, the animal only gave him a straight going away shot (AKA Texas heart shot) and he was "only" toting an 06. He goes onto say, had he been carrying a 375, the shot would have been a "no brainer." Maybe he was using "old" bullets, for certainly a 180 TTSX would in my opinion done the job, but there it is... I still stand by my opinion that a 300 is better suited for elk than a 6.5. It's an OPINION folks...

JG, you mean to tell me you CAN teach an old dog new tricks??

Shiny New Big Guns are for duffers on Big Hunts. Real hunters shoot light cartridges and are deadly with them.

More than enough for me is:

30-06, 200gr partitions, conus.
338 WM, 250gr partitions, Alaska.
375 H&H, 300gr Partitions, Africa.

Definition of looney: I purchased a 358 Norma Mag because I have no need for it and it was a great deal.

IIRC, he wanted the title to be “2,700 or bust!”

MORE'S LAW...

If some's good, and more's better, then Too Much is Just Enough.

I believe the old saying went something like "Beware the man with one gun, etc". In the past 30 some years I've done the bulk of my hunting with a 300mag. Prior to that I tried about everything from the 243 clear thru the 375 H&H to hunt deer, elk, antelope and varmints.When I finally got around to getting a 300 Win mag things changed, it shot great and didn't belt me into tomorrow, and boy did it put things on the ground right now! About this time I started hunting a lot, and that 300 came along on virtually every trip. Killed my share of most everything on license and never once had a 300 in my hands and wished for something different. For me, it's proven to be the single best cartridge I've ever used and one I have the utmost confidence in. I never had to try it but my old buddy Allen Day even shot 2 cape buffalo with his 300 after his 458 developed problems while on safari. I used larger calibers on dangerous game where mandated by law or the stern advice from the outfitter but except for those species I've killed virtually everything with the 300s. Many deer, elk and antelope have fallen to smaller calibers as well, in particular the 270, but when the chips are down or the big money has been spent on a far away hunt, there's no question which rifle I'll reach for. I don't care if others want to shoot 30/06s or 270s or any other cartridge, they all work in the right hands. I just never bonded with any of them like I did with the 300.

FYI, I had one for a while and Big Game was all I ended up using for bullets from the 200 gr TTSX all the way up to the 275 gr Woodleigh.

Great thread so far.

These days the biggest round I use is my 35 Whelen for big stuff and backing up bear hunters. I use mostly 200-225 gr bullets now and rarely ever use 250's anymore. My experience with the 270 Win in the last 4 years or so since getting my first one is it isn't that much different than the Whelen on bears so far. It works great. I was going to get a 300 WSM for a light mountain gun the more I think about it it's going to be a 270 WSM or even a 6.5 PRC instead. If someone comes out with a left hand gun in the 6.5 PRC that's what it will end up being.. Either of those two will be able to kill anything from small deer up to moose and do it with mild recoil.

I'm living proof, in spite of my stubborn, hardheadedness. I still use my 7mags, just not near as much.

I've read ALL this thread.

There's more to it than 'confidence'..... being COMFORTABLE with you rifle/cartridge mean a lot too.

IF as MD says "an ounce of over-gunned is far worse" (P 4), it would seem "to me" the hunters were NOT comfortable with their combo.

It doesn't matter to me AT ALL if a fellow hunts all his game with a .223, that's fine and dandy.

I am confident and COMFORTABLE with my rifles/cartridges.


I will never go hunting with ALMOST ENUFF gun.
I choose to be over gunned. My sig line hasn't changed in quite a while.


Jerry

Jerry,

What sort of big game have you seen taken, with what cartridges?

In other words, how do you know what is "ALMOST ENUFF" gun?

I own a 308 Norma mag in a light Springfield 1903 action. The bolt on recoil hits my hand so I can't get comfortable with it. It groups but it hurts.

I don't hunt with it because I am askeerd of it.

Don't hunt with a gun you are timid about.

But if you are green or inexperienced, follow common sense rules about sectional density in cup and core bullets, and velocity on impact with monolithics IMO

And Col. Whelen said “only accurate rifles are interesting”.

I’ve always thought that way and weeded out all the rifles that weren’t what I consider accurate. But the level of accuracy I want is based on what a rifle is intended to be used for. What is accurate enough for elephant or buffalo at 25-50 yards might not be nearly good enough for Grant’s gazelle or springbok at 200! Because of that I can’t completely agree with Cooper in this quote as there are hunts for extra large and dangerous game where I’ll take power over supreme accuracy every time.

You need to have “enough” stability in your shooting position, to create a rock-solid rest for your rifle, which will allow the rifle to perform the work it was designed to perform, regardless of the cartridge size.

Bad rifle rest stability brings out bad execution, regardless of cartridge size.

Is it “enough” cartridge or is it really, is it “enough” stability in your shooting position that leads to bullet placement success, regardless of cartridge size?

The bad thing about using “enough” is that while searching for the one that’s enough....you will invariably find the one that’s “not enough”! memtb

I hunt and I guide.

As a hunter I have been up the 300Wby-8x68S road, and then down to the 6XC-6,5x57R-.270 and it is for a reason: I shoot better, and enjoy more, shooting smaller, lower recoiling cartridges.

As a guide I have never had a problem with a client shooting 243-270-30-06 class of cartridges, but have had a problem or two with a couple of guys' 300 Wbies, 300RUMs and once, a real nightmare with a client shooting a 30-378. I have also had extremely proficient shooters shooting this line of cartridges so I am not saying it is not possible, I am only saying it is more difficult and requires an amount of training that not everybody is ready to dedicate themselves to.

It is quite common to think that by buying the best gear you become the best sportsman, like if buying the best boots would be a substitute to physical fitness, or that a super gun would make it up for poor marksmanship, And it just ain´t true.

At the opposite end, like somebody mentioned here, occasionally you will ifnd the guy who will come with barely enough gun just to prove it can be done which, depending on what kind of hunt you are on, may not seem like a sound chance to take,

Interesting post and opinions, thank you RinB and thanks to the contributors too.

I've seen enough lost game in the field by those shooting light rifles to know that either the rifles were inadequate or the hunter was an inadequate marksman, or maybe both since animals were lost. Anymore, I won't waste 10 minutes of time helping anyone track a wounded animal all over hell's half acre because they were too stupid to use adequate cartridges. Call me when you find it and I'll be happy to help get it out. Happy Trails

308 Norma Mag on an 03 Springfield was all the rage back in the day. Most 308 NM guns are just that. It's what the 300 Win Mag might have been.

Well I'm sure even the OP isn't going back to the 30-30 and plain-jane bullets or chaining up the 1963 Impala, despite both being pretty successful and commonplace at one time.

I'm not recoil sensitive. That said, like chamois, I enjoy the lower recoiling rounds more. One of the MAJOR factors in my shooting the smaller/lower recoiling rounds it cost...it adds up quick (even reloading). No matter how well I can shoot a "big" gun, 10 practice rounds with it aren't the same as 100 with a smaller round. Of course there's carry over from shooting quantity with smaller rounds then switching to larger rounds but it's still a change. Trigger time matters.

A "WINNER POST" from someone who's been there and done that. FACT.

The 30-06 is "Enough".

WAM,

In the context of this thread, your post would be far more informative if you'd list some of the inadequate cartridge/game disasters you mention.

"Enough" in one man's hands may not be enough in another's. Headstamps and BC's don't kill, shot placement does.

Let's here some stories of lost game shot with "not enough", that wasn't because they were hit in the wrong spot or that the wrong bullet was used.

My guess is there aren't many stories like this.

I've shot my share of larger guns, but these days I'm happiest with a 7-08, 7X57 or .308.

I find two bookends set the boundaries for me, on any hunt and with any person:

The largest possible gun is that with which one is COMFORTABLE shooting.
The smallest possible gun is that with which one is CONFIDENT in killing power.

You got> TUIT <before I got here this AM. grin




Wow, is that ever a loaded question or questions. The simplest answer I have is :

Among other rifle/cartridge combos I have, I also have the renown, reputable, venerable 30-06. Earlier someone said in words to this effect,
no other rounds are more American than the 270 W and 30-06.

I know I will not ever hunt outside of the U.S. and it has been demonstrated multiple times the 30-06 is dependable for all North American game including Brown Bear. So IF a hunter is 'confident' and 'comfortable' with their 06, it is more than 'almost enuff'.
We have members here who've said the 30-06 kicked too much for them....so they aren't comfortable with it.




AND enuff in one man's hands may be too much in another's.


Jerry

Dakota, +1 on the confidence post. Applies to shooter skill, as well as their choice in gear.

Never felt handicapped when deer hunting with a 6BR...killed out to 400 yds......"I" had the confidence. Others w/o experience with one, might scoff. FWIW.

Not judging others gear/choices....but I sat next to a guy at a local range years ago, he had 2 custom Jarrrett built 300J's with 3K plus optics aboard. He shot MOA or so groups and hunted in the South for deer. I commented, nice rifles, you must get some long shots. He replied, yeah, shot one at about 285 yards.

Meanwhile I reflected on dropping deer with the rifle I was using. A 6BR on a Ruger No.1, Kepplinger trigger (cost about 1k when built) with a $300 B&L scope, which I had shot groups sub-half inch....once at 330 yds, and taken deer at 400. I smiled at his comment........he enjoyed his gear, and I enjoyed mine. I did not enjoy the blast out of the braked rifles he was using............

Many ways to skin a cat they say. On Dangerous Game, shoot enough gun....that you can shoot well, using good bullets and placement. On non-dangerous game when not in DG territory........many folks could enjoy less blast and recoil. Perhaps something many 6.5 Creedmoor fans came to realize which helped it grow, on top of the accuracy and ammo prices.

It's just what you want to do....and how you want to do it. My choices follow my experience.......other's choices might include other rationale.

There are many tools for a job, no doubt the '06 and 300 WM get much play, especially in NA for the one gun hunter. I've yet to NEED more than modest 6-7mm's for the bulk of what I do, but once enjoyed a 338-06.....but have shot 338 WM, 375, and 416 RM at paper. All great rounds, for their intended purposes.

So to answer enough...it's Subjective....and in some cases "it depends"

Most of us use what we enjoy using and don't restrict ourselves to what we have to use.

We leave that to those who cannot aford choice or whose employer insists that they use what is provided.

One such incident was a couple of yahoos chasing a wounded bull over onto the private land we were hunting. I watched them hit the bull 3 times with a .243 and they finally killed it. It had been initially hit over the ridge on BLM land before they came trespassing onto the ranch. When they traipsed down the hillside to where the landowner and I were standing, their sheepish comment was “Guess we need bigger rifles”. Said perps had a .243 and .308 Win with Lord only knows what ammo. Another hunter in our party brought his son one year and he managed to cripple several deer with a .243 Win. Both he and dad are banned from the ranch these days. I have bumped into other such situations huntin here in WA on public land. Happy Trails

With the right bullet placement ,a 30/30 will kill anything on this planet.

Shot placement on the wounding hits? That’s a far bigger factor than caliber or powder capacity. Bullets also matter far more than headstamp. A .243 with 55gr varmint bullets into the humerus of an elk would not be an ideal application of said bullet.

Without identifying those factors (which bullets and where they were placed), it’s erroneous to jump to the conclusion that the chambering is to blame.

I'd wager that had a lot more to do with deficiencies in shooting and/or bullet selection than it did the cartridge.

The North American version of "Small Bore vs. Big Bore."

WDM Bell "made it clear in a magazine article published in American Rifleman in 1954 what he would use if he returned to Africa. With his vast experience ivory hunting, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose, which he felt was the .318 Westley Richards, or the 8x57mm Mauser. However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight."

Maybe it's the shooter and not the rifle? Plenty of people in Idaho killing elk with the 22-250, and plenty in WA, where I live, killing them with the 243 or 308.

Bullets matter more than head stamps, and all that...

Such a question must be stated in context or it's a frivolous question and any answers thereof will be frivolous too. Cross canyon shots at mule deer "out west", shots taken at buffalo across a grassy veldt, or deer in a thickly wooded patch of the Appalachians? Each will demand a different tool. What one man's "enough" in a given environment is another man's snickerdoodle in his.

seems you need to get acquainted with a .30-06

Yes, he does need to get acquainted with " Enough ".

.30-06 has been "enough" gun for me all of my adult life. Six of the buggers on my rack (and a 7th on the way) attests to that. Truth be told a .45 patched round ball has been enough for a goodly percentage of the deer I killed running the ridges of Maryland and Pennsylvania. .30-30 a close second to the '06, and is reached for more often than not anymore.

I guess this thread has lasted “long enough”! memtb

I was speech- less. I do know that if you want to see a circus, go to a local range the day before the opener. Doesn`t matter the gun...most don`t have enough respect for the game to sight it correctly.

You're still not saying where the elk was hit, with "Lord only knows what ammo." And you apparently have no idea how the deer were crippled. Can you provide such details on the "other such situations"?

Am asking because I have quite a bit of experience with various big game animals and the same or similar cartridges that contradicts your experience--and unlike you, actually KNOW what bullets were used and where the animals were hit.

Hi David, In my OP I stated : “that either the rifles were inadequate or the hunter was an inadequate marksman, or maybe both since animals were lost.” Obviously I did not have the opportunity to do an autopsy on said animals. Everyone who states that marksmanship is more important than headstamps is absolutely correct. But in my opinion there is not nearly enough marksmanship anywhere to make up for inadequate bullets and cartridges too light for the job. Our little campfire is apparently filled with experts of all flavors but they are likely to be 0.0001% of the nimrods afield. I’m sure you have seen plenty of goobers in the Yakima/Ellensburg area. Happy Trails

I have only came across one wounded deer that was shot with not enough.. I don't know what it was shot with, but I suspect a .223 with a varmint type bullet. 6 point buck hit square on the shoulder. Blew a hole about the size of a tennis ball and broke the bone. Buck was three legging it when I came over a ridge. I put it down. It had to have been the same day as the wound was fresh. I did actually tag it. For myself a 30-06 is about the recoil level I am comfortable with nowadays, the magnums have found new homes. I still have a 9.3X62 and that is fine for a bench session but I do start flinching after about 15 rounds. As always shot placement with the right bullet is always "enough" even a .223.

Probably not coincidence, Mule Deer provided me with some brass and recommended the same powder....

I will share this, though, it was “not” my finest moment. Many years ago, in a general hunt elk area, when I was younger and maybe a bit impulsive....I made a shot on a spike elk, that I had just jumped from his bed, at less than 20 yards. This was to be my second elk, and meat for the following year. I was still hunting, in timber, on wet ground cover....very quiet. I walked right up on a sleeping elk before I saw him...I was looking for standing elk, not sleeping elk.I was taking aim to place the bullet where the neck joined the head. He awoke, and went from sleeping ....to the speed of blur in an instant. I had a low power scope (2x), and while I had him in the scope, it was obvious that he was moving right to left, faster than I was. Knowing I was behind the ribs, and losing ground....I touched the trigger. Yes, he was definitely “gut shot”! Again ....not my finest moment! He only went about 30 or 40 yards, slowed greatly, obviously “very” sick! Another round, and the was elk for the freezer. The shot placement was behind the diaphragm, and behind the liver....definitely nothing but gut. Yet.....this little bull quickly slowed, for an easy follow-up shot. While many contend that a gut shot from any caliber is still a gut shot.... I question, would a lesser caliber have slowed this adrenaline pumped elk, that was fleeing a human predator spoked at 20 yards or less. I’ll “not” try to convince any one differently, but I was there, I know the circumstances, I know the location of the shot ( broadside guts) and I know the results! Do I advocate making “gut-shots”, absolutely not! However, not all of us are perfect....sometimes $#|t happens. Maybe, in certain situations..... “ too much” is “just enough”! Let the insults begin! “He that is without sin....let him cast the first stone”! memtb

memtb - you make me want to use my 375 more often...

"Enough" is dependent on circumstances.

Deer at modest range require little. They die pretty easy.

Bigger, tougher game may require more. More penetration. Good bullets help a lot. Shot placement rules supreme.

My son has a pretty doggone good track record on mule deer with a mere 6mm Rem, and on black bear with his 30-06 rifle. He's had lightning like instant kills with his little 6mm Rem & 95 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. I've had similar results with my 25-06 & 115's.

About 50 years ago Dad told me that the 30-06 was "enough gun" for anything in North America. All these years later, yup, he was right. Elk, bear, pronghorn, deer, etc... The ol' 30-06 just gets the job done, right along with a lot of other cartridges of similar power level.

That said, I have had a moment when I was glad I had a 375 in hand, and another moment when I wished I had my 375 in hand.

Guy,

I have killed quite a few big game animals with the .375 H&H from 100 up to around 1500 pounds in weight, and have been next to other hunters who shot almost as many animals. Most went down pretty quickly, but have seen a few that would be considered by most hunters to be hit "perfectly" through both lungs go 100-200 yards before falling, and they were not all larger than deer. One was a springbok that might have weighed 100 pounds on the hoof. The bullets were lead-core controlled-expansion brands with excellent reputations, and did considerable damage.

Have also seen some big game lost when hit around the edges with the .375. Both were blue wildebeest, one shot right behind the ribcage (we could see the leaking hole) and one shot a right of center on a frontal shot, which from the evidence hit the shoulder bone. Could not tell whether the bullet went into the chest cavity.

Another animal that went a LONG way was a gemsbok shot right behind the ribcage. It went two miles (by Land Cruiser odometer) before the hunter caught up with it again and finished the job. The bullet in that instance was a 270-grain Barnes TSX.

In another instance that I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't been there, a 300-grain bonded bullet rated as among the best in the world hit a Cape buffalo bull in the shoulder joint as it stood broadside at just about 100 yards, one of a herd of maybe 40 buffalo with at least 3 bulls. The bull then bucked into nearby brush before the hunter could shoot again and, after almost an hour of waiting without hearing a death bellow, four of us followed up, the guy who shot, two PH's and me, who went along as photographer and extra back-up. We spread out in thornbrush where visibility was around 50 years, and by chance I jumped the bull but could not see any blood so didn't shoot, unsure if it was the right bull. The others gathered around me and we followed the tracks, finding a little blood. Soon the cover got too thick for four people to be safe, so the hunter and I were told to stay behind while the two PH's followed up. They jumped the bull several more times, eventually putting 11 solids from a .416 Rigby and .458 Express (a slightly longer version of the .458 Lott) into it before the buffalo died.

The autopsy found the initial. .375 bullet on the SAME side it went in. Apparently when it hit the heavy shoulder bone and expanded, it started spinning, whirling through the near lung behind the shoulder before ending up under the hide at the rear of the ribs.

The .375 is a fine cartridge, but it isn't magic enough to always stop mishit animals from going a long way.

Mule deer ....

Please do not take this as being a troll.

Autopsy only pertains to humans.

Necropsy, or upon post mortum examination are the correct terms for examination of dead animals.

Just trying to help with perceived items by the public.

John

Angus,

That's very interesting. I am obviously interested in language, but had never heard that autopsy applies only to humans before, so decided to look it up in various dictionaries, including the two big paper editions we have on hand, Webster's Unabridged and the Oxfor dictionary of the English Language. Neither mentions that autopsy only means humans.

However, most dictionaries have gone to the Internet to keep with with stuff, since English is a living language. I also consulted several on-line dictionaries, but none of them mentioned your definition either, and in fact one said autopsy means a post-mortem examination of "someone or something." More than one listed "necropsy" as a synonym.

What’s wrong with buying a new gun?

Thanks for the response Mule Deer!

In veterinary school if we said autopsy it was big trouble, and I have always tried to clarify that.

As a side note we could not use the term symptoms.......animals only exhibit signs.

So my suggestion is one to help credibility and possible butt hurtedness by haters who gonna hate.

Not by me, you have taught me a ton, and I am thankful to communicate with you.

If it's new species or opportunity for me, it's an excuse to acquire new calibers or cartridges. Don't even really have to use it, but it's a great reason for new acquisitions.

There's no way one of my mule deer rifles would be adequate for white tail.

Eggs-xactly 1 minute!!!!!!!


Most brilliant!

I've been following this discussion and wow, a lot of great experience offered. Maybe a good question would be is there a animal where you HAVE felt under gunned or is particularly harder to kill than others?

Oh, I daresay it would be adequate. Whether it were ideal would be up for debate, again dependent upon definition of debate parameters.

You guys are making me want a .470 NE for next deer season. Loaded with soft cast bullets at .32-40 velocity it would be enough gun for little old Eastern whitetails, soft point express loads and a scope for those "high wide and lonesome" shots, and the Real McCoys for pissedoff brown bears/cape buffalo/elephants that want to turn me into worm food. Hmmmmm....

I'm sure that's where I got the idea to try Big Game and it works. I do think though it can do well with a wide variety of different powders but if you have Big Game you might just end up using it in the end. The 358 Norma is a real thumper and should have been much more popular than it was. Hope you have fun with it........

Yessir our WT are TUFFER than them mullies !
Always tryin to help a fellow hunter.


Many years ago a friend and hunter told me that the Mule Deer were called that because they had..........
mule tails !

Jerry

Why absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as it’s MORE than enuff gun.


Jerry

Thanks! I've only shot a few black bears with my (your) 375, and it did a fine job, but honestly the black bear I shot with my 30-06 died very quickly as well.

It's that "plumbing" stuff inside that needs to get disrupted. Lots of different ways to do that I suppose.

One time that I kinda wanted a 375 in hand was when the grizzly showed at modest range. The 30-06 did fine, but I've wondered a few times if that first hit would have been more decisive with another 100 grains of bullet. Who knows?

Good discussion all. I'm enjoying.

Regards

Not trying to be a smartazz but it was a bit hard to necropsy a dead bull being dragged by a couple of trespassers and even harder to examine crippled deer that went over onto the adjacent private land. I believe the bull was hit in the ribs twice and in the hindquarters twice before it dropped. The .243 was shooting Win Power Points I believe. The deer crippler was shooting 80 grain Core Lokts. Not sure what the other guy shooting at the bull with the .308 was using. The .308 is certainly adequate for elk as I have taken several with that cartridge. I know you are a fan of light rifles and can appreciate that. I, however, am not. Happy Trails

Mule Deer,
In my 11th Ed. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary the first definition of necropsy was: AUTOPSY 1; esp: an autopsy performed on an animal.

I can also confirm what Angus said is taught in veterinary school. You would quickly be corrected if you referred to a postmortem exam of an animal as an autopsy.

My advice (since nobody asked for it) would be that if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about, use necropsy in reference to animals and autopsy in reference to humans.

Oh, and instead of "use enough gun" maybe the saying should be "use enough marksmanship."

Yes. I passed up shooting a big Russian Boar at 300+ yards the other day because all I had was a .223. Tried to move closer but he vamoosed. If I had been holding my .30-06 he would have been toast. Also I was sort of disinvited on a Nilgai hunt because I proposed bringing my .308W. Didn't want to take my .30-06 on a trip to South Texas and lose it (lots of stealing down there I've heard). It was told to me that I needed something on order of .338WM. Personally I thought the .308W would have been fine.

I don't think anybody else noticed an inaccuracy with the use of "autopsy" in referring to the postmortem examination of fatal wounds of animals. But I wish you would school folks on the use of the words too versus to. I would do it but I know that correcting people's grammar irritates them, therefore you can handle it.

Clearly we must blame the hunter, not the cartridge, for failing to shoot it in the ear.

Some times the unexpected happens, this animal was shot at about 75 yards with a 45-70 400 gr. hornady soft flat nose, bottom bullet hole, top bullet hole is a .270 130 gr. Nosler AB, running very fast at about 50 yards, the 45-70 round never entered the chest cavity, the 270 round killed it.

How did that happen? Rio7

Do you mean the 400 grain 45-70 bullet blew up?

I think it must’ve been a Speer. I’m not aware of any 400 grain Hornady?

I use the 400 grain Speer in my .460 for schits and giggles. The muzzle velocity is 2500 fps,much faster than the .45/70 and I would not not use this bullet for big game in the .460.

Shot this bunny about 75 yards away.

While I have never had the fortune to hunt Africa or either Canada. I have hunted out west and felt the need for the big 30's. I have had persuasions of most of them. I have come into my old age of just enough and settled upon the 708. It will humanly kill anything I will get a chance to shoot. And will not bust my body in the process

Interesting reading here. This argument is one that will continue forever and has never been solved, as their really is no specific answer.

I hunted for many years exclusively with 7 mags and have taken lots of deer, a couple dozen elk, a moose and three Oryx with said rifles shooting good bullets. I never once felt under-gunned and have never been recoil sensitive. For the hunting that I do, I never felt the need for a 30 magnum, or anything any bigger. The 7 mags were easy to shoot on the range and not terribly expensive to load, but were more than enough for elk out past 400 yards. If I was headed to Africa-which I don't care to do, because I cannot bring the meat home-I may be inclined to get a big bigger medicine.

That being said, I have to laugh when someone states that deer were lost due to shooting them with a .243. I have shot somewhere above 150 deer doing depredation work, using a 6 mm Remington and 100-grain Interlocks. I never had any more problem with killing them, than when using my 7 mag, or .308. I also know people that have been successful on elk, using a .243, although I never would.

I was on an Oryx hunt near Las Cruces, NM, and was riding around with a range rider on the base. He said that he had a guy with him one time that could not hit anything with his big rifle, due possibly to a failed optic, but he was not sure. They rolled up on an Oryx at relatively close range and the range rider loaned the guy his .243, loaded with 90-grain Speer bullets that he used for coyotes. The guy smoked the Oryx with one shot and the bullet gave complete penetration.

I have shot 7 mags, .308s, an -06, 6 mm and now .260 and Creed. I have noticed virtually no difference in killing power between any of them on deer-sized game. I have not and will not hunt elk with the smaller calibers, not because I think that they are too light, but having two 7 mags, it just does not make sense to me to use the smaller calibers. I, now, use the 6.5s for virtually all of my deer/antelope stuff, but still drag out the others once in a while, just because they are there!

The bottom line, is that if a rifle is too big to do lots of practice with, then get one that you can handle and can practice with a lot. With correct bullets, smaller calibers leave a pretty big footprint in the hunting world. The 6.5s have become extremely popular for that exact reason. They recoil is nil, the ammo is cheap-even if you do not reload-and in my opinion they kill far beyond what paper ballistics say they should. I would much rather see someone hunting elk with a 6.5, that can shoot it, than a guy that thinks he needs a monster rifle, just because some article said so.

Bullet construction and marksmanship trump caliber nearly every time and a bad hit is a bad hit.

My thoughts? 90 percent of the posters on this thread make stuff way to complicated. The larger cartridges you cited are not because people think they need more gun, it's for extending maximum range, not because they need to use enough gun up close....

A lot of this stuff uncomplicates itself hunting a lot and seeing lots of animals killed. It would render this discussion humorous...

WAM,

Thanks for the additional info.

I am NOT "a fan of light rifles." Have shot LOTS of big game with various .300 magnums (in fact have killed bull elk with three different .300 magnums),and several larger-caliber cartridges, and have seen the same rounds used quite a bit by hunting partners. In particular I am very well acquainted with the .338 Winchester Magnum, 9.3x62 Mauser and .375 H&H, but a few others in the same class have been in the mix as well. On my last African safari I took a 9.3x62 and .416 Rigby, and on my last Alaskan hunt a 9.3 Barsness-Sisk, the short-action equivalent of the 9.3x62.

What I am a fan of is analyzing what happens when different animals are shot with different bullets and cartridges. This has been going on for a few decades now, in various places around the world. I started out being pretty well convinced (because so many hunters said so) that certain cartridges were indeed the minimum for certain kinds of game. The minimum suggested, however, varied over the years. At first, the most common minimum here in Montana was at least 180-grain bullets in the .30-06 for elk.

Eventually that was modified to the 7mm Remington Magnum with heavier bullets, because so many hunters started believing in "The Big Seven," as it was frequently called. One was a friend who handloaded 160-grain bullets to what he believed was over 3000 fps, because the loading manual he owned said so. This was, of course, before hunters had chronographs. He killed a pile of animals with that load, including plenty of elk and some very big black bears, and often bragged about his Big Seven. Eventually he bought a chronograph and discovered his "magnum" handload was getting around 2700 fps, about like a warmly loaded 7mm-08 or 7x57.

I bought a chronograph a little before he did, back when they were rare, and at the local range somebody almost always asked if they could shoot a few rounds over it, to see what their load did. They were almost universally disappointed, and some even got angry, when their magic load didn't clock anywhere near what they'd believed.

Perhaps because of that, somewhere in there the The Big Seven got demoted a little, and .300 magnums (and especially the .300 Winchester Magnum) became the widely regarded minimum for elk, with plenty of believers. I suspect this also happened because before the .300 Winchester appeared, the only available factory .300 magnum was the .300 H&H, pretty rare in the U.S.

I got into a conversation with one of these believers a few years ago. He'd started hunting elk relatively late in life, when he came into some money and booked at least one trophy elk hunt every year. He said he'd started with the .30-06, but every bull he shot went at least 100 yards before falling. So he switched to the .300 Winchester Magnum, and bulls started falling quickly. (He also said he'd killed "almost 10 elk." I never found out what almost 10 meant.)

I said that was interesting, because I'd killed more elk with the .30-06 than any other single cartridge (probably due to my early indoctrination) and not one had traveled more than 50 yards before falling. In fact, I'd recently used one to take my biggest bull, in both body and antler, which went all of 20 feet after being shot through the lungs with a 180-grain bullet.

Part of the problem with the testimonies of people like Almost 10 is quite often they're not very analytical about shot placement. Many don't differentiate between lung and shoulder shots, and in general shoulder shots will put animals down quicker--and quite a few advocates of bigger cartridges use shoulder shots, which skews the results.

Eventually I saw plenty of big game shot with cartridges smaller than .300 magnums, and not just the .30-06 but some much smaller. This was partly because in the decade from 2000-2010 I deliberately went on a bunch of "cull hunts" in various places around North America and the rest of the world, in order to analyze how various bullets and cartridges worked. And I did NOT judge the results by hearsay, or the size of entrance and exit holes, but by seeing exactly what happened inside the animal--and by recording, as closely as possible, how far it traveled after the shot, and the exact placement and bullet path. Plus, the animals included not just those I shot, but those taken by many companions, on some hunts at least a dozen other hunters. The cartridges ranged from .22 to .45 caliber, bullet weights from 50 to 500 grains, and the bullets from Berger VLD's to various monometals.

Eventually I concluded that if the shot was aimed correctly and the bullet expanded and penetrated the vitals, there wasn't very much difference in killing power--except, perhaps, in favor of bullets that fragmented more. Again, this does not mean I'm "a fan of light rifles." (Instead I'm a fan of all rifles.) What it does mean is that anytime I hear somebody talking about absolute minimum cartridges for such-and-such an animal, or animals wounded by "inadequate" cartridges, my BS detector automatically flips on, and I start asking questions.

Much of the time the hunter I question turns out to have started with the assumption (as I did many years ago) that bigger cartridges automatically kill better, and in fact they're often so convinced they've never used what they consider inadequate cartridges. Much of the time they make no differentiation in bullet placement, as long as the bullet lands somewhere in front of the diaphragm. Often they make a big deal out of "examples of one." In other words, they're about as rationally analytical as the average guy is about women: They already know what they like, and hence aren't all that interested in other details.

There isn’t an Amina’s on earth that a properly loaded 30/06cant take adequately with proper bullet placement.

JayJunem,

Thanks for your additional information.

However, English dictionaries (whether British or American) are based on "common usage," which is why meanings often shift as the language continues to evolve. This is as opposed to some European countries that actually have language police, usually geezers, who make sure commoners don't corrupt their language.

I would suggest that meaning of "necrospsy" and "autopsy" used in veterinary schools are not common usage, and in fact are what is often called jargon, the specialized language of certain professions, which sometimes runs so densely among practitioners that it helps to have somebody edit their writing--sometimes essentially translating it so people outside the profession can understand what they're saying. I know this from partly supporting myself before becoming a full-time writer by editing professional papers, including graduate dissertations and theses.

Since saying "autopsy" in reference to animal post-mortems will only get me laughed at by veterinarians, I am not going to bother, partly because if I wrote "necropsy" in some article about tracing the path and damage of big game bullets, many readers would be puzzled.

beretzs, Went back and checked you are right it was a Speer 400 gr. Sorry my mistake hope Hornady will forgive me. I'm not trying to make the case for big or small bore's, I've always thought that was a interesting result of 2 good shots. Rio7

This always gets lots of response. For me, as an elk/ Bighorn hunter the .270 wcf is /was and will be ideal. Reloaded 26 and other newer powders have even made it better. This rifle must be light, short and capable-a 22" barrel or shorter. I have one with a 20" barrel, still put up great numbers, still hits hard. I always pick it over the others( including other .270's) It is "enough" for my hunting purposes.

MD,
Thanks for your thoughtful comeback. I’m sorry I caused your bullshit detector to go to full wail (smile). I have most of your books on rifles and big game hunting and enjoy GG immensely. I’m just a fan of bullets that can penetrate big critters through the vitals forward of the diaphragm and pass through, effectively letting the air out of them. They rarely go very far. My experience with near 100% pass through hits on deer and elk are with TTSX, TSX, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets in various 7mm, .30, and .35 caliber rifles. When I scientifically define “near 100%”, it means I can’t recall one that didn’t. I’m not claiming expert authority status, just relating my experiences and spouting my unsolicited, very biased opinion. Happy Trails

No problem. Was just wondering. That bullet has been pretty good in the 45-70 but I know things happen.

WAM,

Thanks again--and glad you like the books!

Will note that one 180-grain Tipped Trophy Bonded from a .30-06 did not exit a bull elk's chest--the big bull mentioned in the previous post that went 20 feet. Did not find the bullet, unfortunately, even though Eileen and I butchered the bull. The bull was quartering away at 250 yards, and assumed the bullet ended up in the far shoulder, so was really careful when taking it apart, but no luck....

I have also never recovered a 200-grain .30 caliber Partition, though again, one did stay inside a raghorn bull elk that was shot with what Elmer Keith called a "raking shot," essentially up the wazoo, at around 380 yards with a .300 Weatherby Magnum. The elk had been previously been shot in the chest, but wasn't tipping over, so got tipped over. Traced the path of the bullet into the chest, but could not find it. (Perhaps the most impressive penetration from the 200 Partition I've seen was on a 6x6 bull shot at 75 yards. It was standing quartering toward me, and the bullet split the left shoulder joint, then exited at the right rear of the ribcage.)

Did find a 168 TSX from a .300 Winchester Magnum in a Sonora mule deer I took with a not-quite-so-raking shot as it was running away around 200 yards. The bullet clipped the left hip, and was found that evening while the buck was being skinned, falling to the ground as the hide was peeled from the front of the chest. Another recovered TSX in my collection came from a companion's gemsbok in South Africa, a 180-grain from a .300 Winchester Magnum. It was found under the hide on the far side after breaking both shoulders, retaining 170.7 grains.

I have several other monolithics shot from .300 magnums, all recovered from animals weighing about 500 to 800 pounds, but in general they do go on through. In fact, during a cull hunt in Africa was field-testing the soon-to-be-released Nosler E-Tip, using 180's from a .300 Winchester, but after shooting around a dozen animals hadn't recovered one. The PH got so intrigued that he decided we needed to find a blue wildebeest quartering toward us, so I could shoot it in the shoulder joint. After a couple hours we did at about 100 yards, and we found that bullet at the rear of the ribs on the other side, retaining 180 grains--which it shouldn't have, since the plastic tip had disappeared, and in .30 caliber they generally weigh a couple grains. When I reported the results to Nosler after returning from the safari, they were slightly sheepish. Turned out they'd forgotten about the weight of the plastic tip, so the prototype bullets actually weighed 182 grains! (They changed that in the production bullets.)

30-06 is enough. ymmv

Better is the enemy of good enough

Eveidently not for the two guys mentioned in my post. But when you put humans in the mix, anything that could be perfect, is thrown out the window.

That is true.

"Enough" is the 30-06

"Good Enough" is something like a 25-06 or 270

So, Better = Enough = 30-06

And then there is "More Than Enough" which if I did what you do I may own one.

Any cartridge must be used within it’s capability parameters....to be an “ethical” hunter. Which includes the operator doing his/her part. Almost any animal in NA “can” be cleanly killed with a 22 LR, “BUT”, you have a “VERY” narrow parameter. Most of us “are not” willing or capable of operating within that narrow parameter. It’s a “very” personal call, your’s and your’s alone , to determine that what that parameter is! Anything less.....is irresponsible! The above opinions, are those of the author, and may or may not represent your “personal” guide lines! memtb

[/quote]
Shot placement on the wounding hits? That’s a far bigger factor than caliber or powder capacity. Bullets also matter far more than headstamp. A .243 with 55gr varmint bullets into the humerus of an elk would not be an ideal application of said bullet.

Without identifying those factors (which bullets and where they were placed), it’s erroneous to jump to the conclusion that the chambering is to blame.[/quote]

I strongly agree with Jordan.
The favorite three and loads I use are:
- 30-06 w 200 grain partitions
- 6.5x55 w 140 grain partitions
- 30-30 w 170 grain partitions

I shoot them all a lot, and am taking the 30-30 mule deer hunting this year. It will do fine.

I'm new here or i'm new at posting. I've been registered since 2012, but I haven't been around much because I got comfortable on another forum which I've been on for 12 years now. But it got boring. I'm more a long gun person. I have hand guns for protection. I don't shoot them anymore than enough to hit Mr. Bad Guy in the head coming through my front door or window. But I eat, breathe, and live rifles and shotguns. So I came back here on recommendation of a friend from that forum and have been very happy here the last month. I go back and forth. I still have friends on the other forum and when they have a thread on something that interests me I post. But I spend a majority of the time here now.

Anyway, back on subject, I am one who believes in enough gun for the job. I have never shot at anything bigger than a 250-300 pound hog. But I know enough about bullet performance and capability that i prefer to go bigger than smaller. Having said that, I will tell you I have shot at hogs with .223s. But hogs are easy to kill. They have, especially when chambered in an AR or other semi where you have a fast second shot.

But for something as majestic and beautiful as an elk I would want to kill one DRT. I really believe a .243 or any 6mm bullet is not enough for a sure thing kill. In fact, personally I would want something at least .30 caliber. I have a .243 Win. and I believe it's almost perfect for white tail deer. But never would I take one elk hunting. If I ever have the opportunity to go elk or moose or any really big game hunting I would take my Mark V Lazer Mark .300 Weatherby with a 200 grain Partition. I also have a 9.3x62 that I would be comfortable with. I shoot a Speer Hotcore 270 Grain Semi Spitzer in it now but I would consider tryng a Partition in it for elk. What do y'all think?

My two favorite bullet brands are Sierra and Nosler. For deer I love Sierra Game Kings and also Nosler Ballistics Tips. I use Combined Technologies Ballstic Tips in my .25 cals. Great bullets for medium size game. I've killed at least one hog with my .250 Savage and a 115 Grain CT BT and they work amazingly well on deer. My wife has taken deer with the .250 so stoked. It is vicious on deer inside 300 yards. But that's as far as it goes. I never would trust them for Elk or Moose or anything bigger. It's my opinion that if you're killing them with a .257 Bob or a .243, you're living on good luck and I prefer more of a sure thing. JMHO. However, I know I'm not the end all opinion. That's just what I feel comfortable with. If you are confident with a .22 short have at it.

Filaman, Glad that you joined us here at the fire. I’m suffering ( in more ways than one) from “cabin fever”.....so, I stir this “fire” pretty often! Again, Welcome ! memtb

Thank you Membth, I've been reading your posts and like a lot of what I see. And thanks for the warm welcome.

MD,

This is my 2018 Colorado bull. The blood spot behind the shoulder is the EXIT wound. Hit from left side very slightly quartering to me. He may have taken 2 steps before piling up. Not a spectacular bull but a spectacular performance by a 168 gr TTSX at 225 yards. Happy Trails

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/13618894#Post13618894

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/13618855/bull-2018

I also notice there are not many sub-.284 / .277 rifles in the mix: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...es-have-you-killed-elk-with#Post13618530

Have rather enjoyed this thread but assure you all I'm not a good source of insight into the question. Killing pigs with CB shorts is the other end, sorta like whacking ele with a well placed shot from a M16, or water buff with a 1911 Colt. CNS shots kinda take the shine off the question, hey?

People who have little to no experience killing said critters with a variety of cartridges often have a similar misconception

WAM,

Those are the cartridges I've personally killed elk with. Have been alongside several other hunters when they killed elk with smaller-caliber cartridges. One was my wife, who crumpled a cow with one 100-grain TTSX from a .257 Roberts. That was a good example of how very small differences in bullet placement might give an unobservant hunter the wrong impression. The cow was quartering away at 123 yards, and at the shot I expected it to run maybe 50 yards. Instead it went straight down. Discovered during the autopsy that the bullet had gone through both lungs, but because the cow was standing on a bit of an upslope, had cracked the bottom of the spine. If that hadn't happened, it probably would have gone a little ways before falling. Found the bullet under the hide of the opposite shoulder.

Another was 300-class 6x6 bull that a hunting partner killed with one 120-grain Nosler Partition from a .257 Weatherby. He put the bullet right behind the shoulder, the bull broadside at around 150 yards. It was standing on a very steep mountainside, and managed to run downhill 75 yards before running head-on into a big conifer, obviously dead on its feet. Oh, and the Partition exited.

Have seen a few elk (and similar-sized Africa game) killed with the .22-250 and 55-grain softpoints. In fact that's the favorite load of a retired local outfitter I know. He used a 7mm Remington Magnum for back-up while outfitting, but prefers the .22-250 these days because he hunts big herds, and doesn't want to bullet to exit.

Spent one day in Africa culling with the same PH who wanted to "catch" a .30-caliber E-Tip.. He uses a Sako .22-250 with 55-grain Winchester softpoint factory loads for his cull-hunting (he gets them wholesale, due to owning a sporting goods store), and a hunting partner and I used it that day. We killed several springbok out to 500 yards with it (I made the 500-yard shot, thanks to guy who owned the rifle sitting beside me), but while my hunting partner had the rifle we ran into an injured bull kudu, and the PH said, "Kill it!" It was running, but my buddy was a retired Army sniper instructor and hit it right behind the shoulder. It went 75 yards and was standing there swaying (due to a bullet in the heart) when a second in the lungs dropped it right there. At the time the rifle was on its 4th barrel and had taken over 12,000 big game animals, primarily springbok but many other species as well.

One reason many hunters don't have much experience with what various cartridges will do when aimed right is they don't observe many other hunter in action. I have been making it a point to do that for many years. When I first started getting invited on "industry" hunts by various manufacturers around 25 years ago, many if not most of my fellow gun writers quit going out after taking their game. I've made it a point to accompany other hunters, even if I wasn't going to shoot, to see EXACTLY what happened. I also guided for a few years in the 1980's, which also provided plenty of interesting information, not just on cartridges and bullets but how many hunters "evaluate" their experience. But the biggie was going on so many cull hunts, where anywhere up to 185 animals were taken.

My wife killed her first elk (early ‘70’s) with a .243 Win., so yes, it can certainly be done. She was not overly impressed with it’s performance. She stepped-up to a .270 Win. around 1973 and used it until 1996. In 1996, she stepped-up again. Since 1996, she’s killed numerous antelope, elk, a moose, and a bear....all with the same rifle. Almost all, were one shot kills, at ranges from around 35 yards, to a measured (after the shot) 400 yards. She’s very happy with her present rifle....and has no intention of changing. Let’s just say, it’s a considerable step up in caliber from that .243 Win., used many years ago. memtb

I'm glad it works for her. I'm not saying she's using the wrong rifle. My point was that making negative judgments about a smaller cartridge based on very few or zero kills is a common mistake that people make. From what I gather from your post, she formed her opinion of the .243 on elk/moose-sized game from her experience with a single kill? That's what I was referring to. Bullets have come a long way since the 70's. The .243 of today is a monster compared to the .243 back then, all because of the bullets available now.

I've seen a lot of critters larger than deer killed with sub-.30's from .243" to 7mm, a bunch killed with .30's and larger, too, and the only common denominator in the rodeos I've witnessed was poor shot placement or poor bullet selection for the job at hand.

Jordan Smith, Absolutely no argument with any of your statements. Probably the single greatest improvement in hunting equipment has been in bullets. Smaller calibers of today, with proper bullets kill better than bullets of yesteryear with cartridges several calibers larger. A smaller caliber, with proper bullets, and a hunter both capable of proper placement and the ability to wait for the proper shot....virtually nothing is “off the table”! If we weren’t “one gun” hunters (yes, a mental defect), we may step down a bit. But, we haven’t totally given up on hunting large game in far away places...with expensive trophy fees. We want all the insurance that we are comfortable with. memtb

Kind of amazing how much tougher some people think the ribs, hide etc of an elk are compared to a deer when trying to get a bullet into the chest cavity.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly!

The most savvy advise I learned was from Col Cooper who said that a .30/06 and a .458 covers the lot.
Most of us have tried variants and they too work well, but that does not change the above advice which although not referenced, aligns with many conclusions here on the 'fire.

True dat. There is a mythical armored elk. Elk meat ain't any more resistant to bullet penetration, etc. (though the bones are hard and dense, so make excellent hide scraper tools, and I've seen the thick hide at the back of the neck do an amazing job of catching bullets, even at quite close range).

However, since this thread deals with nuances from bore size to shooter skill to bullet design and dozens of other factors, here is another: many elk are persistent about living. I call it tenacity of life. Elk have it. Moose and deer don't. Grizzlies have it. Black bears don't. Rocky Mountain goats have it in spades. All of these statements have exceptions, of course, when a specific animal is tough and tenacious way more than is norm for his species.

Elk hide isn't tougher but their will to live is.

It is a generality and is my opinion, based on observation. Elk tenacity after taking a fatal hit has kept a fair number of hunters from finding elk that they have killed. Elk are notorious for taking a fatal hit without flinching or any sign of being hit. All of this contributes to the armored elk myth. Elk tenacity is one of the reasons I like more than enough. Comfortably more, not a cannon whose kick scares me but a hammer I can still handle with precision. Our mileage does vary.

I would agree okanagan. Some mammals don't want to die, seen it in humans, animals and it's pretty impressive every time. I was referring to a broadside shot in my previous statement, not so much trying to run a bullet there through lots of bone and meat.

More often than not, in my experience. That’s why, if they’re still standing, I’m still shooting.

I shot a 4x4 a few years ago, about 100 yards, tight behind the shoulder, no bone. .300 Wby Mag, 180 Partition, factory ammo. He was looking at me when I shot him. All he did was turn his head and start walking away. I hit him again and he kept walking, then tipped over while I was squeezing the third shot.

Common.




P

About 10 or 12 years ago,I shot a small walking bull, broadside, at about 50 yards ( with my .375 AI). Absolutely no response to the shot, other than walk faster. He went about 15 yards, and tipped over. At the shot, my first thought was, “holy crap I missed”! memtb

BINGO ! That’s where I come from.

I’m not one for 1 reading LRF. 2 reading drop chart. 3 twisting turrets. 4 aim. 5 squeeze trigger.
With A 270 (class), 7 Mag, 300 WM...... 500 yds needs a few inches above an elk’s back line.


As has been stated most any animal can be killed with a 22 RF.

Jerry

Wouldn't have been savvy for me. I've yet to need a 458 for anything....

Pharmseller,
I had almost the exact same situation in 2007. 5x4 bull, broadside 75 to 80 yards, took 2 hits low behind the shoulder and started to tip as I squeezed off #3. All 3 hits with .35 Whelen 225 gr TBBC were within 3 inches and the heart and arteries were just jello soup. All exited. He just stood there long enough for me to get 3 shots off. Confirms the “If He’s Still Standing, I’m Still Shooting” school of thought. Interestingly, I found one of my spent cases hunting that same spot in 2015. Happy Trails

I know a man that’s killed several elk cleanly with a 22-250 with careful shot placement.

Two of my faster DRT kills came via a 140 Partition from a 7mm-08. One went down so fast I thought I had missed and he had run off. The second took a step forward, a step back, then fell over.




P

And the answer is......?

I totally agree about elk being able to take a licking and keep on ticking!

They can when frightened muster up the adrenaline, and have the ability to cover a lot of ground, even up hill if the wound is not severe enough to prevent oxygenation of tissues.

If they ain't spooked, and in my opinion bulls, or even cows without calves, they can lie down pretty quick, unlike most whitetail that run a ways no matter what.

But a spooked elk with calves leaving the area, tend to keep leaving the area unless stopped!

From my handling them, and helping other hunters dress them, elk and elk sized animals (Plains Game) really DO have thicker skin, heavier muscles and bigger/thicker ribs than any deer. Maybe I only handled the ones that were on steroids? A big hog also has thick skin, heavy fat and or muscle, add dry mud on long hair, and they can be a tough bullet test!

A 30-06 with the proper bullet would likely be enough for anything in the Western Hemisphere. But there’s other things in my mind that play into the equation. Distance to game, angle of shot (do you want to have to wait for a perfect angle??), weight of the rifle (mountains can get steep), bullets available - not as big a deal as 50-60 years ago, prairie (wind) and there’s more.

I’ve gotten to not want to carry meat, hide, and antlers out of a steep ravine or even a draw. I like to plant the animal were it stands because!! I have steel knees, arthritis etc.l’m older than some and I get in worse shape as time goes by. Stopping time and keeping in shape are about equally likely.

So, a native gal kills a record polar bear with a 22 LR, a famous guide kills a charger bear with a 9mm. Perhaps then I’m over gunned and I over kill.

(I hope no one is offended when I take a rifle that shoots a cartridge that has a belt on it). Especially since I feel the 30-06 is the finest cartridge ever developed.

This year, I’m lucky enough to go for moose, I may never get to go again. Should I be concerned that someone else thinks my 300 Win Mag is too much gun?

That has not been one of my concerns! My concern is a 81/2 lb rifle too heavy? I know the area is fairly flat, but still. Should I carry a 350 Mag 600 with a Kevlar stock - much lighter and handier or a 30-06 carbine or should I carry a ss 270 with a Kevlar stock - lighter and powerful enough — more than that 22LR and the 9mm and they could get the job done some of the time.

If anyone would care to bet, I’d bet more Canadian moose have been killed by the 303 British than any other cartridge and I have zero proof of that. I have a SMLE but I won’t be taking that, I guess I don’t follow what’s popular. The 303 probably is equal to the 270, I suppose.

I’m thinking I’ll take a backup rifle. I’m thinking the 300 Win Mag is primary and now I gotta worry about the backup rifle. Oh my.

If everyone would just get a Big Green Egg, there would be no need for such discussions.

Enough to handle the game and whatever threats are in the area, whether the threat wants to eat you, stomp you into pudding or cut your throat and throw you in a ditch.

Elk ribs are much thicker than Deer ribs. But I don't think they magically bounce bullets off.

The anatomy of elk will make deer hunters think they are aiming at a vital area when in fact they are not.

They are a different shape, and bi colored.

They also can run for the roses if given the chance!

Who was that man who said “ anyone who thinks a 30-06 isnt perfectly adequate for large bears is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship “?
Charlie

A fellow who is a true sage and valued member of the 'fire.

Experiences such as these confirm my belief that knockdown power is a myth.




P

Last moose was pretty much same story .338 RCM 185 TTSX range 15 feet or so. Three shots right through the boiler room in about 10 seconds. I didn't hit any significant bone. It just took about 20 seconds to figure out he was dead. I rather doubt that a 458 lott or a 250 savage would have really done that much differently

If you hit the heart, it will die. How fast doesn’t seem to be that much cartridge dependent. If you shoot through the shoulders, the animal won’t run off and it is to some extent cartridge dependent. Not enough cartridge or poor bullet selection = may not do the job. A white tail doe’s shoulder stopped a 165 grain bullet from my 30-06 and the bullet never entered the body cavity. If I would have used a better bullet, no problem. But bullets and cartridges matter.

Which bullet and what did it look like?

I didn’t want to start a war with Sierra lovers. It was a Sierra 165 soft point. Granted I was close to the doe when I shot it. The second shot was in the head and that worked.

My brother shoots Sierra bullets in his 6.5x55 and does ok with that combination. So just because I do not use those bullets anymore, I’m not saying they are bad - Sierra probably Improved their bullet design since then.

The year I shot that doe, my brother-in-law lost a bull elk using the same bullet. He said he could see the bullet hit - just behind the shoulder. He followed that bull for most of the day - blood drop here and there.

Another brother had a failure with the same bullet but I don’t recall the details other than lack of penetration and over expansion.

We had driven to Sedalia (SP?) Missouri and had picked up quite a few bullets.

Another bullet failure was with a 6mm on Antelope. I call it a failure even though the horns are hanging on the wall in my gun room. It was with 105 grain Speer hot core bullets. I shot that buck 6 times through the ribs/lungs before he dropped. Each bullet made a pencil size exit. That 105 Speer bullet was a very accurate bullet in my 6mm by the way.

I know it is where the bullet lands that is important. But that doesn’t mean bullet construction - depth of penetration and controlled expansion are meaningless. To get penetration there needs to be a certain amount of velocity/energy same with expansion.

I’ve experienced other bullet failures and I’ve been kidded for taking too small a rifle (cartridge). But after hunting as many years as I have, I have opinions based on my experience. Other hunters have the same right to their opinion.

It’s just clear that my opinion is the best. 🤗

Thanks. Did you recover the 165 and get a look at it?

A person couldn't manage the recoil of a round whose projectile carried enough momentum downrange to on its own actually knock down an elk.

Yes, the bullet was close to flat, lead and jacket separated.

Interesting stuff, more of you agree with each other than not. This is totally random, and not really germane, but may be food for thought. My son in law has a couple livestock trucks and has moved cows in the intermountain west for years. Lots of experience. He inherited a number of good centerfire handguns from his Dad, and I've seen him shoot, way better than average. No Elmer Keith to be sure, but competent. After several unfortunate trials, you guessed it, he's back to the .22 long rifle 40 gr solid at whichever angle presents itself. Now to be clear, these are skull shots for an instant humane execution. Assuming bigger was better, I turned him on to the famed mule shoot study by the army back at the turn of the previous century. After trying three centerfires, including the vaunted .45 acp, it's back to the .22. He is not as long winded as I, his reply: "I hate drama, them critters are hurtin' an stressin' the others, the .22 does the job".
Be interesting to see what the large animal vets think of this.

I euthanized a lot of ketotic Holsteins, calves, some mules and horses.

The 22 mag solid was good. The 30/30 was also good. 357 was way too loud, 3006 way too much.


We had a downer heifer from a hard calving, it was eating not ketotic, just wouldn't even try to get up. The co owner of the farm took out a 22 Ruger black hawk and shot it in the nose! He was aiming he thought at the brain case but was too low.

That freaking heifer jumped up and hauled ass!

We got her corralled and in the hospital pen, about 10 days later she was off antibiotics and ready to enter the milk string.

I tagged her # 22 of course!

I think perhaps a simple statement would be.

The benefits of increased kinetic energy in a ordinance terminal ballistics performance is easily erased by the inherent recoil induced. (in some shooters ability to remain accurate.)

Flintlock:

IF we could get a close -between the eyes shot, not much is going to survive.
However, that doesn’t happen all the time plus 22 RF aren’t legal for big game most places.

Jerry

What goes around comes around. Now we're back to this.

Must be something to that stress factor. UPS man hit an nasty old range cow last year and reported it to my daughter, she said she'd deal with it, drove back to one pissed off old cow. Slobbering mad. Two shots from a .270 and a dented Dodge later, she cut out the backstraps, called me a week later to say she couldn't even stick a fork in the gravy, the meat was so tough.

Jwall, I guess I wasn't clear..my post was not germane to hunting..I, nor anyone else would sanction a rimfire for hunting. It was an anecdotal experience of a humane euthanasia. More or less asking and wondering why a rimfire works better than a centerfire for a brain shot. That's all I intended, not trying to stir the pot, relax.

No man I wasn’t uptight. Everything’s KOOL.

Jerry

There is a lengthy internet article, written by a machanical engineer that is also a hunter. It gets pretty deep, as I don’ know squat about advanced mathematics. However, he brings it down to those of us that are normal. It will destroy a lot of misconceptions about, kinetic energy, ft/lbs. energy, lbs/ft energy, Taylor KO values, OGW tables, over penetration, hydrostatic shock, etc.

If you are somewhat analytical you will likely enjoy this....though be prepared to “get your feelers” hurt. Sometimes I thought, I’ve said that for years....other times, his data hurt my feelings. Much of what we’ve been told, or thought to be true is debunked with some pretty sound data. To those that already know everything, don’t bother....as you already have the answers.

It took me about 3 sit-downs to get through it, and really need to go through it again...I hope to absorb some more! All in all, a good read....but, pretty deep at times! memtb

http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Great read!!

Long ago I read Ruark and Taylor and lots of Keith, which is why my mediocre 53 year Alaska hunting career mainly consisted of 250 grain Partitions and a .338 Win. Mag and a 30-06 with 200 grain Partitions. They worked splendidly out to a bit over 400 yards. The two loads had a similar trajectory and my "set & forget" scopes worked fine at that range.

When I discovered the Barnes X bullets I waved goodbye to the wonderful Partitions. I now shoot 225 grain TTSX in the .338 and 168 grain TTSX in the 30-06. My old late 50's Featherweight Mod. 70 shoots that 168 grain TTSX very well and I am confident a more skilled riflemen then me with a reliable dialing scope could get hits past 800 yards. What more could a serious hunter need ?

It is now not only "use enough gun", since most of us know that optics and bullets have done more to stretch out our range then any new cartridge. It is the age of the "super bullets" and that has some what changed ideas on sectional density, bullet weight and bullet diameter. At least for me it has.

1Akshooter, 👍 memtb

That is well worth filching, thanks for that.