Yeah, I am in my 60's now and forced to address the constant ache of altered , overused shoulders.
Otherwise , I am in good shape and cannot stand a muzzle brake and carry lightweight equipment.
Yup, upgraded recoil pads, use a shooting vest on the bench and won't use a leadsled.
I love the view from the top of the steepest mountain .
I am debating on taking the little .243 for elk, mule deer and Bighorns this year. I have killed elk with it before and I feel with the best monolithic bullets these days it is adequate. Bullets these days have changed the rules, imo.
350 yards is far enough and nothing much stops a solid copper bullet.
Anyways, like politics and religion it should draw a variety of strong opinions.What is yours?

Man up Using the 243 is OK, I guess, but you'll want to carry some 35 whelen cartridges in your belt and tape the muzzle so your friends won't see. GD

i have had both shoulders rebuilt and my shoulders do have some pain yet, i went with a 257 Weatherby Mag. has less recoil than the big magnums but shoots as far and also has plenty power .most of my friends now have also went with a 257 Weather Mag. for elk and deer we all use either Nosler Partitions or Swift A-Frame bullets.

My wife and I have killed plenty of big deer, both mule and whitetail, with the .243 (and similar cartridges like the .257 Roberts) with excellent results, even when using "antique" bullets like the Nosler Partition. Have also used several cartridges many hunters consider inadequate for elk with no problems, from the .257 Roberts (100-grain TTSX) to the 7x57 and the dreaded .270 Winchester, also with no problems.

I don't have shoulder problems (at least yet), and still shoot rounds from the .300 magnums to .416 Rigby accurately. But have learned over the decades that there's not nearly much correlation between recoil and killing power as many hunters apparently believe.

I'm dealing with these same issues. Fully agree that the copper bullets are changing the rules.
For a handloader, also think it worth looking at less than max loads under medium or lighter weight Partitions, so long as good accuracy is there.
Other solutions I'm working on are found in older, often overlooked cartridges like the 300 Savage and 257 Roberts. Same with calibers made out of the 308 case.
Combine these with an older, full sized rifle, like a walnut stocked Rem 700, Ruger 77, or Win 70, along with a Supercell or Limbsaver, and recoil becomes minimal, yet can deliver a pretty lethal bullet to just the right spot.
The curmudgeon in me refuses to look at 6.5's. Well, maybe a 260. Rational, eh?

my thought is i am still using my 257 Weatherby Mag. tell i get worse but this cartridge for me is hard to give up on. but when i do it will a 257 Roberts i am building a 257 Roberts with a 7 1/2 twist barrel. i still own another 4 or 5 Roberts too, my good friend that`s his favorite deer rifle that he uses is a 257 Roberts and for 8 years he was a Sniper/ explosive expert In the service oversees .

I always thought of the 243 as a cartridge for experienced hunters. Of course it is fine for young ones and ladies within their range abilities. I was surprised when in Colorado I ran in to two game wardens on a bus drivers holiday, they were both hunting elk with 243s. I always carried some sort of magnum from 7RM to 375 but now if I ever hunt elk again I would probably use my 6.5x55 light weight. With the bullets available today the 243 is very close and would do fine for a hunter who picks his shots.

Jack O Conner praised the 257 Roberts for sheep hunting and Warren Page shot numerous head of game in New Zealand with his wildcat 6mms which were the predecessors of the 243 and 6mm. He shot multiple red stags and other assorted deer, goats and sheep with them with no reported incidents.

The main thing is to get out after them and the cartridge is far less important than hunting skill. With the 243 you should be more concerned about getting the elk off the ridge after the shot. That's what younger friends are good for.

I take glucosamine + chondroitin a couple of weeks before a hunt and Alleve or other analgesic when hunting to delay the sore muscles and joints. Some odd remedies have helped like accupunture and CBD oil, these especially after a car accident aggravated all the aches. I suspect surgery might be somewhere down the line.

Any new rifles will have 257 Weatherby or less recoil levels.

I am in the same position, Rheumatoid Arthritis in hands and shoulders, I have always heard that the 243 is not enough for deer, but i am planning on buying one
before this season starts. My shoulder just can not handle a 308 anymore. I hope to pick up a 243 this month so I can get some range time in.
best of luck to you.

I've had both shoulders rotator cuff repaired, still shoot my .35 Whelen with 200 gr. RN Hornady and Remington Core-lokt bullets at .358 velocitys. Accuracy is outstanding and performance on whitetails within 100 yds. is too. The load I'm using is a Ken Waters load of 54.0 gr. of IMR 3031 and I'm very pleased with it. Last season's whitetail buck was taken right at 100 yds., a raking shot just ahead of the last two ribs passed completely thru the chest and was found perfectly mushroomed just under the hide of the opposite shoulder. The bullet retained 66% of its original weight, it destroyed the lungs and somehow the buck managed to run 40 yds. before piling up with his antlers tangled in a barb wire fence.

I have gone to the 7-08 for the same reason of yours. I thought of going smaller but after shooting one the recoil did not bother me that much. The 7-08 has a good range of copper loads (I use the 140 grain Barnes) and remember, if bullet placement is good only one shot is needed. I would take that pin for a good Elk.

Full disclosure. I loaded 2 boxes of 338 mag three years ago and they are still on the shelf. I didn't even sight in the 35 last year and hunted with a mild-mannered 7x57. I took the 308 barrel off my silhouette rifle and switched to a 6.5 Creedmoor. However, I would never admit that any of this was because I am old and decrepit and don't like recoil anymore; true or not. GD

I hope you get your 243 or similar and keep hunting elk. I’ve never used the 243 for elk but the .257’s and up seem to work just fine. My long time partner has dropped back from his 300 to a lightweight 280 this year. Not because of recoil so much as the lighter rifle is easier to carry. I’m happy to see him still hammering out the miles at 73 this year and still killing elk pretty far from camp!

I have arthritis plus I have had a rotator cuff repair on one shoulder, and have problems with the other. Don't want to sound like a wuss, but my 270 with a max load, in a light rifle without a good recoil pad, would sometimes make me grunt. I tried my 7X57, but it was even lighter, and again I was loading to the max. I have since settled on a 243 and a 6.5 Creedmoor. The 6.5, with 120 BT's kills the snot out of a whitetail and I do not notice the recoil.

The 270 will probably never be used again unless I happen to draw a Kentucky elk tag.

I've never killed an elk with a 243 but I have several friends who have and I know others who've used a 6mm Remington - and I'm talking about neat kills, not rodeos. It's all about shot placement.

I killed a big mule deer buck the season before last with a 105 Hornady HPBT from a fast twist 243. It was a pretty severe test of that bullet as the buck was very heavy and he was only 5 paces away so impact was pretty close to muzzle velocity. It worked great and I may carry that combo again if I can arrange a cow hunt this fall.

6mm monolithics will work. Partitions and 100 grain Interlocks are other 10 twist options I wouldn't hesitate to use.

The 6.5 Creed and 7-08 are also great modest recoil options too if you want a new project.

There are lots of folks that use a .243 and do well with elk. A guy I knew almost 20 years ago hunted with nothing else, and had 13 sets of elk horns on the wall of his den.

The only one he ever lost was when taking a shot he had promised himself he would never take - the elk was moving in the timber, but it was so close he couldn't pass up the shot. He felt he hit the animal, but a light rain washed away any hope of finding a blood trail and night was coming on fast. Extensive searching the next day revealed nothing.

Now, the bullet could have hit a branch and deflected off, or the elk could have done what elk are known to do - soak up lead and walk off with no indication that they were ever hit. But he still kicks himself for pulling the trigger when he knew he shouldn't have - and in all seriousness, the same thing could have happened with any cartridge.

Grits Gresham wrote that Whiskey Chamberlain had 15 one-shot kills on elk with a .243.

Years ago I talked to a very experienced Idaho elk guide (named Smith?) who recommended the .243 for anyone who couldn't handle more powerful cartridges because his experience showed it worked, and worked well. He set up his wife with a .243 when she shot her first elk - a one-shot kill. His only cautionary words were not to shoot much farther than 300 yards and to wait for a good shot...good advice for any hunter with any firearm.

I believe alpinecrick from right here on the 'fire has written many times of the efficacy of the .243, and has solid experience using it and the Nosler Partition against elk.

Another well-respected contributor to this forum related how Gail Root, the Nosler technician, designed the 95gr Ballistic Tip to be a big-game bullet, and used nothing else on numerous big bulls.

I think there are numerous cartridges that are better suited for elk, but success speaks with a loud voice - and the .243 is enough.

And after all of that, I have to say that I have rotator cuff problems with my right shoulder and I can't tell the difference between my wood-stocked Sako .243 shooting 95gr BT's and my Tikka T3 Lite 7mm-08 with a 120gr TTSX when shooting off the bench.

And for me, that slight heavier, slightly larger diameter bullet gives me comfort when I'm contemplating a hunt for something as large as elk.

Had major shoulder reconstruction surgery. Was able to shoot rifles in 6 months. Evoshield make a shoulder pad for us guys. Search “Evoshield for Shoulders” . Kit comes with a tight fitting pull over stretch shirt with a pocket built in front of the shoulder. There is a form fitting shield that you fit to your gun butt and shoulder contour. Remove from airtight packet and place in pocket, form again and allow the shield to harden. Hardens in a short time. Just follow instructions. Protects the shoulder really well by spreading out the recoil impact. I am healed now but will use the shield at the range for various guns. I hunt with 7mm mags and 30-06s.

I heard about them from friends using them on Argentina bird hunts which allowed them to short all day. Several of my friend have had shoulder surgeries and all bought the Evoshield kit. They are comfortable meaning you can wear all day if you want to.

Link https://www.evoshield.com/en-us/shooting

It seems that Mother Nature is providing a life lesson.

You don't always need a large calibre rifle to get the job done.

I thought a hunter needed a cannon until I saw grandkids shoot 200lb plus pigs through the shoulders with a 80 gr TTSX in their 243’s. They don’t have any trouble killing them out to 300 yards.

Don’t tell anyone, I have a couple 99’s in 243. Damn they are nice to shoot!

Ain't it the truth.

It's oxymoronic to suggest that children, due to their inexperience and small stature, need to be sent to deer camp with guns the adults say are marginal for whitetails. Nonetheless, they head out the door carrying their 243s, while the big people carry magnums and other anti-aircraft hardware.

To know the future, we only need to look back.

Can't help on the elk or sheep, but the deer shot with a .243 and .257 were apparently just as dead as ones killed with bigger cartridges, and died just as fast. If you're going light in weight on the rifle, definitely go light on the round to spare your old bones, nothing over a 6.5 or maybe a 7-08 with lighter bullets. I plan to carry my 6mm CM again this year, but with 115gr Bergers instead of the 95 TTSXs I toted last year. Only lightweight rifle for a heavier round I've shot recently was a Kimber Hunter 6.5, and it had noticeably more recoil than my lighter Barrett.

After a year and a half of my shoulder replacement,recoil is big problem for me. I do own a a .243 but it is custom mauser and about 9 pounds.

I don't think one is offered in a muzzle loader which is half my elk hunting

I know a lot of people shun the muzzle brakes, but the one on my .06 cuts the recoil of a 180 gr partition to a tad above a .243.

Like anything else involved with hunting or life, you compromise to be able to continue with what you want to do.

Yep. My wife eventually had a brake installed on her custom, lightweight .308 Winchester, not because of shoulder problems but recoil headaches. Even with the brake, however, we had to go to a slightly reduced handload with 130-grain Barnes TTSX's.

Started my hunting life with a 222. Moved 'up' to the 243 and probably took 150 whitetails with it. Still have 2 in the safe that come out to play from time to time. Left shoulder is heading for replacement someday. Right shoulder doesn't like the recoil so, the 300 WM and 338WM and the 340 Wby all went down the road.
My elk rifle is the 264 WM and a 6.5x55. Put the bullet in the right place and you'll be hauling elk meat out.

Just checking in , many folks in my position. I have also killed elk and moose with my model 700, 25/06. The 24" barrel is a deterrent now.
It is off the list. The .270's are not off but from what I experience with the mono's , Swift bullet products, they don't fracture much and make a hole in the vitals. The .243, 6mm now has the confidence to speak for themselves in hunting camp.
I feel the rules have changed and hunters with modern ammo/ especially the great new bullets are not undergunned. Yet, the Creedmoor rounds continue to bounce of all Game animals- a modern phenomena, even a close range.
There you go, it is clear as mud.Cheers

If you have a brake, you cannot forget ear protection. I walked up on a group of pigs on the way back to camp. I had a 300 Win mag with a brake, I hit a pig on the run, but my right ear rang for a week.

Yep,I have a set of electronic ones I wear hunting. At the range I wear plugs and muffs and I am always careful to set up away from other club members and let them know I am shooting with a brake.

I killed a big Scimitar Horned oryx with an 85gr Barnes xbt going 2900fps from a little long barreled 6x47 ( 222 Magnum necked up to 6mm) I had just had a neck fusion. Base of the neck at 184yds, complete penetration. A 243 can push it a tad faster!

Age old dilemma.
We want a flat shooting, super accurate, non-kicking, heavy hitter that weights as much as a plastic stocked red rider and fires ammo that is cheap and available at every five and dime,

But I believe we all have to make compromises on the ideal rifle.
Give up some lightness or some power, or submit to more noise, or some combo of these.

Nothing can get around the laws of physics.

I also dislike muzzle breaks, but if I wanted an elk rifle that I felt 100% confident in, that only weighed around 6.75 pounds of less, I would go with a good break and carry ear plugs around my neck on a string when I hunted. In some cases you'll have time to put them in your ears, and in the cases where the elk is close you can fire quickly before it gets away and one shot at a large close target is not likely to bother you all that much.

Or give up on the feather weight idea and go with an auto loader in a 6.5 or 7-08 caliber, based on a short action. Such a rifle can be field ready, loaded and scoped at about 8.5 to 9 pounds and doesn't kick bad at all.

Or go with a very light caliber with solid expanding bullets (Barnes or Hornady GMX) and be willing to pass on many shots that you can't place perfectly.

I feel for ya, but I believe that all we do in our selections of guns and ammo is a compromise at one level or another. I am 64 now and I still carry 9 to 10 pound rifles in the mountains and do not feel burdened by them, but I can't say I'll feel that way in the coming 10-20 years.

I am finding that my Ruger #1 in 270 sits at home a lot now, and the Model 70 FWT in 6.5X55 is the go to rifle as I get older (looking at 73 in Feb). Total confidence in the 140 gr partition.

My dad transitioned out of his .30-06 and into a 7mm-08 while in his mid-70’s. He killed his biggest bull ever at age 77 in 2015.





P

I have a 243 barrel for my savage but will likely download my 30-06 to 300 Savage level and use 130 gr copper before switching to 243

Ultra light rifle

Bad shoulders

Big Game

Hate muzzle breaks

Hard Head

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Animals are not hard to kill when you put a shot where it belongs

We killed big deer in Kansas and Nebraska with 6 Remington and 243's with 95g partitions and 100g Hornady interlock, 350 yards was no big deal.

I hunted cow elk off of mules in Az with 243 and 100g Partitions, shots were not long, and they flopped.

Your shoulder surgeon will advise you what to do, if you don't listen, they you are in for a shoulder replacement with some loss of movement. So, being a hard head gets you 3-4 months of Physical Therapy after the shoulder replacement with 9-12 months of recovery.

I started using Gentry muzzle breaks that throws the sound 15* or so forward, and wearing electronic ear muffs. I hear 3x to 5x times better than the average human, and this adds an entirely new hunting experience.

Adapt and Improvise

I have a good reason to not trust copper bullets, partitions are like the warmth of the morning Sun!

Another option (and excuse to buy a new rifle) is the 25-06. A good bit more oomph than a .243 and not that much more recoil in a hunting weight rifle.

You could still tape over the end of the barrel and carry 35 Whelen on your belt. I'm going to try that this fall. Great idea by whom ever it was suggested it.

RJ

After reading thru this thread several times I thought I'd join in and see what ya'll suggest for my similar/ but not exactly the same shoulder situation.

13 years ago at age 62 I had a huge 22oz non malignant tumor removed from underneath my right ear, with all 5 nerve trunks going into the right shouder either cut or torn. Long story short after that surgery I was not able to extend my arm or raise my elbow above my shouder. Spent 18 months of "rehab" and way too many opioids and eventually got to where I could pull my zipper up and brush my teeth with my right hand. Rejoined most daily activities over the years but with no overhead reach or strength and extreme pain possible whenever my elbow went above my shoulder.

Began to hunt again 10 years ago, but slowly the shoulder's reach and strength has begun to errode again. starting 3 years ago, and now I flinch big time with a Past Pad at the range, and again even on a game shot with a normally loaded 9lb+ 270 M70 Sporter...and have not shot more than a few rounds off the bench with anything much sincethen even with a T3 Swede SL, a USRAC M70 Fwt 7x57 because of pain and flinching. Bought a Wby VG 308 for the weight and a Wby VG SS 7Rmg even planned to put a muzzle brake on the Big 7 and planned to download for both of them on, but have not shot either of them.
.
Had a MRI 3 weeks ago that confirmed the lack of need for surgery for a shoulder seperation or torn rotator cuff repair job HOORAY and only confimed the presence of "bone spurs" ....Last week I got a steroid shot of 3 short/medium/long acting steriods and got some releif that comes and goes but was finally able to fully raise my hand to full overhead exstension for the 1st time in 13 years....and without pain. OTOH Doc sez I can only get these steriod shots every 4 months, but can get them for the rest of my life if need be.

I want to start hunting typical Texas critters again as at 75 I've still got a few years left in me ...so do I dump the deer rifles I have or just download them ? Or do like my attorney did after a car wreck wrecked his shoulder, when he went from a 270 and into a 22-250 and finally into a crossbow ...or do I just sell everything I;ve got and get into the smaller deer/hog capable calibers ?
Ron

Glad (kinda) to see I'm not alone, although only 52 both my rotator cuff are torn and on my right shoulder (shooting one) it's been separated for 9 years after a mountain biking accident and now the ball is falling out of the socket.
I still regularly shoot my 280 AI and .270 without much of pain and I limit my practice with the 8 lbs. 300 H&H, but I must say my newly built 8 lbs. 6.5CM has been a joy. I shot 75 rounds last weekend and feel no ill affects at all.
Someday I'll man up and have the operation(s) but for a self employee guy who likes to hunt there just isn't a good time.

Why not?

You can put a good brake on your favorite rifle and sit behind it all day in a lead sled. Then take all that stuff off and go hunting and take that one shot.

I had an MRI a couple of weeks ago. It seems my rotator cuff and bicep tendon in my right shoulder are torn. I had surgery on the shoulder 7 years ago and my orthopedic surgeon has referred me to a specialist whom I will see in 2 weeks. At 74 I do not know how many years I have left in me for quality hunting. I did manage to get a cow Rosy elk last year with my 300 WSM so I still have meat in the freezer. I have broken out the 243 and 270 Sako's and 7/08 Styer to practice with just in case I get drawn for elk next year. It is good to know the 243 will work on elk. It just might become my go to rifle for the limited time I have left to chase elk.

140 grains is a credible bullet weight for game up through elk with good bullets. 2700 fps MV for said 140 gr bullet doesn’t generate a lot of recoil even launched from a light rifle. Making that 140 gr bullet 6.5mm gets great SD and BC so penetration and external ballistics are great even at a pedestrian 2700 fps MV. It may sound like bandwagon fandom, but there is a LOT to recommend a 6.5 Creedmoor, .260, or 6.5x55 as a light-kicking hunting rifle.

Sorry to hear that verhoositz. Do you think the steroid shots provide enough relief to handle some recoil? I would think downloading for a heavier rifle with lighter bullets is a viable option to at least try and find out how it works for you. Maybe mono bullets are the way to go for lighter bullet weights.

Gringo, you have had quite a time of it. I have had 4 rotator repairs done myself...on the same shoulder much of it due to a head on highway accident. Waiting on a replacement now.
Hurts like a bad thing 24/7 ...yup opiods too.
I think these modern copper bullets have changed the rules and 100 gr .243 bullet will work on elk. I know of a neighbor here that kills elk every year with his 22/250( we kill a few from our places) Good luck with the shoulder stuff

GL, Dunno yet as I had the shot only a week+ or so ago. My ?? was whether ya'lls thoughts on whether to sell/trade into some smaller calibers or how effective on game the download route in my current inventory was from ya'lls experiences. I've got some factory Lite 270 ammo on the shelf that'll be the 1st thing ASAP I try but lots of Retired Activities are eating my time since the BH & I have gotten into chasing Antique Euro furniture and have set up in 2 Sale locations and had been looking at opening a 3rd location before next Fall's selling season until April.

In late April we had a "mini" EF Zero tornado thru the neigborhood and I lost half a dozen 120'-160'+ pines that had stopped our world for 6-8 weeks. Next door they lost double that # of Old Growth Pines & other neighbors had trees root balls pulled out of the ground, with severe roof damage all around me, even knocked out the town's Municiple Water System's electric supply for over 10 days. I've still got temp power poles across the back fence so the Full Recovery Ain't Over anywhere in town by a long stretch but Life moves on and we survived better than others around us.

Late Last Fall we stopped the world when the BH had a stroke , with no permanent damage PTL and only a slight cogniton loss that shows up when things go too fast around her, but the probability of having both of her carotids' Roto Rootered at some point down the road... but it was a Bell Ringer notice of what we can and cannot handle time wise.

My desire to hunt with a CF rifle again is what's driving me to take advantage of the opportunities I'm finding as we open new doors with the Antique's bidnizz. But if I don't "schedule" a new activity then things that could be done never get planned for and done. Jst Ain't gonna sit in a rocking chair the rest of the my life and dream of what if I'd done this or that
Ron

I have not killed an Oryx but this doesn't surprised me. Did you recover the bullet?- maybe not

A friend (another gun writer) has a wife who didn't hunt for many years, but eventually decided she wanted to. He started her off with a rimfire, as I recall, but soon got her shooting a .243 Winchester. She did very well, but before the next deer season in their home state, he managed to take her on a plains game safari in South Africa. She used the .243 with 85-grain Nosler Partitions, and killed an impala, gemsbok and blue wildebeest, all with one shot each. Gemsbok and blue wildebeest are supposed to be among the toughest of all the plains game.

I've killed 2 of them with the .223AI and Barnes TTSX, and another with a .243

A number of years ago the Doc X-rayed my "bad" shoulder....said there was a bunch of " traumatic arthritis". I asked how come only the right shoulder and not both..." I dunno...its some kind of repeated trauma...." Uhhhhhh...I wonder what that could be?

Anyway, since then I've had stellar luck with small bore guns, and the critters involved don't seem to realize the difference...

The first one blew a quarter sized exit hole, I did recover the 2nd shot, which was up through the brisket and broke the spine, almost exited the top skin. At 40"+, you don't take chances on horns called "Rapiers" ( CORRECTION: Scimitar=sword) Rapiers are Gemsbuk, and I've had them up close too! , ha. It weighed 83gr, perfect X. I took it out to Barnes's place and showed the girl at the desk. I teased her and asked if they would give me a box of bullets for "advertising" the thing. No, of course, ha. Its around the house here "somewhere"...

Well crap..I sold the fairly pretty Wally World VG 243 wood stocked gun last year right before Christmas for what I had in it...thinking I'd never need/want a 243 again, after in 1968 I traded off a SAKO 579 243 'cause the bullets of the day was costing me lost WT's and 270's were a death ray, had never missed owning a 243 again. ..and then last winter the buddy who had bought a Wally World VG muy beaucoup pretty 308 'cause he couldn't find a 243, decided not to sell/trade the 308 to me to go with my cheapy VG blue/composite 308 I'd kept from the closeout sale as a beater... his wife thought the 308 was too pretty to sell and it has never been shot to date.

Seems like 243 bullets have "improved" a tad since the late '60's apparently. Based on what I'm getting here, I think 1st I'll try and find a Tikka T3 Factory wood stock to heavy the Swede SL up a little or send it down the road for a 6.5CM of what ever it will bring...and/or then mebbe sell/trade the USRAC Fwt M70 7x57 with an original folding sight and front hood for something of equal value in a 7-08 ...but could also like the idea of changing out the 7x57's +90% USRAC stock to something a little heavier too...just need to SHOOT something to get started. Thanks all for the thoughts and input.

The old RO at the Winchester Shooting Center in Dallas in the late '60's always greeted you with a "nothing smells better the 4895 smoke in the morning"...and I am missing it bigtime.
Ron .

The 7x57 would be an easy down-load, especially using the 120 NBT. One of my girl cousins has been killing Texas deer/hogs for 40yrs with a Mod 700 BDL 22-250 and 55gr factory soft points. I uesd a 220 Swift a few months before the oryx hunt. I shot the then available Federal factory 55gr trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullets. I killed an axis doe and two nice Blackbucks. Wicked killer. A 22-250 is easier to find great ammo for. You can pop crows/varmints in the off seasons and kill deer/hogs in the Fall/winter. Before brass got so hard to find, I played with a .224 Texas Trophy Hunter, fast twist. It is the 6mm Remington ( 7x57 case itself!) necked down to .224. I used the 64gr WW for varmints/plinking and the Swift 75gr Scirocco on a 300#+ hog ( neck shot). A standard 22-250 and 55gr Barnes would have done the same! Good luck to you pard and remember, my Sr Class HS girlfriend won "Miss Dogwood Festival" in Woodville, Tx in 1970! ha

Comerade,

I have put a couple of Barnes X bullets weighing 130 grains through both shoulders of a bull elk. Both bullets exited. I have complete confidence in the 270 for elk with monolithic bullets.

Over the last few years,I have been using the 120 grain Hornady GMX in a 6.5 Creedmoor for deer and hogs. The recoil is about like a 243.
I think that would be my choice as a low recoil elk rifle.

If the Creedmoor with light bullets kicked a little too much,I would go down to a 243 without hesitation. I have seen one failure on game with a 243 but it involved a cup and core bullet hitting bone at close range. A 243 with partitions or monolithics will get the job done in my opinion.

I had to use the 220 Swift ( It was Mod 700 Classic take off barrel ( 24" sporter) I had put on a Model 7 synthetic, pillar bedded and the rear action screw changed to a Model 700 screw) and that 6x47 because my wife was with me when I asked the Dr. could I hunt after my neck fusion. His "Academic" reply was "Yes, but it has to be a rifle with very little recoil". So, I had a muzzlebrake put on the 220 Swift (just to show her it was just a loud .22 then) and the 6x47 I had made up was on a Mod 700 .223 action and a 27 inch Shilen ( to help with speed) I used BLC2 behind that 85xbt for a chronographed 2900 and few feet of change. It was accurate too, hovered right at 1" and under for 5 rds. I had it set in a Lone wolf synthetic ( which wasn't that lightweight, come to find out) so no brake was needed (the Swift didn't either, I just wanted her to see it, and I could "see the bullet strikes" for varmints then too) . Just a "pop" out int he field. I killed an axis doe first, high lung shot. Then a big Axis buck in full velvet. We later on saw the Oryx and I traded the Swift and some money to the rancher for the bull Oryx. He actually measured 41 1/2" long. 184yds, base of neck, 75yd insurance. I later had that rifle converted/rechambered to .243 and took it/gave it to my friend in South Africa for a culling rifle. He was ecstatic with that 27" barrel on it! I have played with many .243s and I don't care for the short barrels. I like at least 22" for coyotes and 24" for deer/everything else. It just makes me "feel better".
Another option is a 240 Weatherby. It is not a heavy recoiling round, but the same as a 25-06 with same weight bullets I'd say. My good friend out here uses a Mark V 240 Weatherby and 95 Partition ofr mule deer and elk. He and his son have killed some pretty big bulls with it too!

I had to back off recoil for a couple years because of heart issues. I'm better now but I keep a model 70 22-250 around just in case my health takes another bad turn.

As I mentioned, my cousin had always used a 22-250 with 55gr soft nose, but man, it does bloodshot the meat! wow! I have discovered though, contrary to my "Great Depression Survivor" Daddy's biggest fear...we never starved to death for lack of a few pounds of deer meat!

I'm in the same boat and have been shooting Contenders in rifle format for many years now. As things have progressed, I have even dropped down in bullet weight. My 7mm Bullberry (20" barrel) drives a 120 grain Nosler BT at 2651 fps while a 24" .300 Savage propels the 125 grain Accubond at 2740 fps. My 24" 30-30 uses the 125 grain Nosler BT at app. 2600 fps. All kill exceptionally well and don't leave me hurting excessively after using them. After a long drought of not pulling the trigger on anything, this past weekend I took a brute of a boar right at dark with the .300 Savage. The 125 grain AB performed perfectly.

That's is one good looking hog pard! I played with a Contender Carbine with Fred's barrels way back in the late 90s. First was a 17/K Hornet and the second was a 6mm Bullberry. He last made a 375 Winchester barrel for it but I gave it all to my SIL to keep for my grand daughter when she gets old enough. Fred is the one who turned me on to EezOx!

What a "great" looking hog...we got'em like that coming out of a swampy creek bottom at the end of the block with about a half acre of steady rooting every nite...unfortunately we are about a mile inside the City limits, but unfortunately the local Policia frowns on taking things into our own hands.

Good to see the guns being used, especially like the 6.5 Swede that I put away in the back of the closet being used that are about what I had hoped for when all the cutting on my neck & shoulder started in '06. Just need to get back into the weekly trigger pulling groove and overcome the lack of trigger time with a lighter than the maxmax loads I was used to with the 1st T3 Swede Hunter.
Ron

You can really see the Eurasian features this hogs reverting back to. I forget how many generations of feral hogs it takes to begin to see this, but its evident he and his kinfolks have been feral awhile!

Jim-

The ones below actually are more representative of the "look" of the hogs in this area.

Man! those definitely have that Eurasian "wooly hogs" look to them. High in the shoulders, low in the hips.

I think the criteria ( of mine) works for hunting these steep mountains. The rifle is carried and seldom shot. I won't carry my 25/06 any longer because of the long ( 24") barrel.
I am a .270 wcf user but it easily is bull elk capable with the new, effective bullets these days. I think the .243 will be effective also with a ttsx or Swift bullet, as long as it creates a deep wound channel it will work.
A Barnes ttsx, Cutting Edge mth , Hornady GMX are nearly unstoppable.
Things have changed quite alot.
I hunt elk every year and have killed bulls at my own place on occassion but I like to hunt the high elevations and I gotta carry the thing on my shoulder to do it. The lighter, shorter and compact the better for me.Cheers

It'll work fine.

-Jake

One of my favorite gun writers (Bob Brister?)went to single shot pistols after a detached retina. Contender and or encores

I can empathize. I presume you are in elk country in SE BC by your post and are experienced. I know the new premium bullets have lifted the cartridges capabilities but I would add a few more qualifiers for myself; for example, I might arbitrarily set a limit for 250 yards on an animal I will be able to watch and am sure to retrieve.

Good luck!

I shot a decent sized buck in the late 90's with a 7mm-08 and Partitions. The deer was right at 200 yards, the bullet knicked the left front leg and exited the right rear ham. That's probably a easy 3 feet of animal and bone. I'm a small caliber fan needless to say. Shot a doe through the shoulders at probably 50 yards and the exit wound was unreal.

Showdog75,

Around the same time I shot a meat muley buck with a 140 Partition from a 7x57. Found him feeding in lodgepole timber at less than 50 yards, standing almost directly toward me. He evidently saw me raise the rifle, and picked his head up to stare. The bullet landed at that dimple at the base of the neck, and he dropped instantly, never moving.

I traced the bullet's path as well as possible during field-dressing, but lost it in the guts. Assumed it ended up somewhere in there, but a year or so later put a piece of one of his round steaks in my mouth and bit down on something I assumed was bone. Instead it was the expanded Partition, which either Eileen or I had sliced on either side of when butchering the deer.

Am always kind of amused when somebody recovers some bullet after it travels lengthwise through a big game animal, and claims it to be the Best Bullet Ever. In reality, lengthwise penetration is pretty common in my experience, partly because the "tube" of a big game animal's body is softest inside. Among the expanding bullets I've retrieved from the opposite end of a big game animal of some sort have been Barnes monolithics (of course); Hornady Interlocks and GMX's, Nosler AccuBonds, Ballistic Tips and Partitions, and probably some I've probably forgotten.

mogwai,

While Bob Brister did have a detached retina, he recovered from it and continued to shoot with his right (dominant) eye.

You're probably thinking of Bob Milek, who essentially lost his sight in that eye.

I too am having shoulder problems with torn labrum and now rotator cuff and will eventually need surgery. Even 270 win and 308 win in sporter weight rifles are not enjoyable to shoot so looking to downsize.. I most shoot paper/steel and only hunt whitetail deer, (would like to hunt hogs/pigs), with no intentions to anything larger. Wondering if I would be ok shooting my 223 rem for my needs or rebarrel my 308win to something smaller? I moving to Pennsylvania in few weeks and think they allow 22 cal for deer hunting?

I'm kinda of kicking myself for not getting my shoulder fixed years ago but my doctor's advice was to do physical therapy to strengthen my rotator cuff to compensate for the torn labrum, now my rotator cuff is going bad and keeps getting worse.

Yes we allow 22 caliber and your 223 will do fine for deer. What part of PA?

@moosemike, I will be moving to the Lancaster, PA area. So my thoughts regarding options are: Use 223rem with "good deer" bullets, download 308win, or rebarrel my 308win to 6.5creedmoor or 243win.

Welcome! I'm one county to the north.

when it comes to bad shoulders i was a pole climber/lineman for 31 years for a power company and yes my shoulders suck i have had both shoulders rebuilt the best that it can be without replacement parts that the surgeon says i need new man made shoulders.so i shoot a 257 Weatherby Mag. Ruger #1 for deer ,my rifle is heavy but that 257 Weatherby Mag. has plenty power and range to knock whitetail bucks or buck Mule deer down by the Canadian border in Minnesota or Montana and the recoil isn`t that bad.

@moosemike, thanks!

@ pete53, I've heard about how one's recoil level get lower as we get older, heard about detached retina's from heavy kicker, and even MuleDeer's wife getting headaches from the recoil of her rifles but never in million years thought about my shoulder's going bad as possible limiting factor. I'm glad the OP brought this post up and hear about how other are dealing with it.

>i figure also when i reach the age of 70 maybe a little older ?, i will be using a 257 Roberts Cartridge in a rifle to reduce recoil even more to help my shoulders.but for now at 65 years of age i am stay`n with my 257 Weatherby Mag. i like the speed knockdown power of this old cartridge.

I recall as a kid in the 70's many local hunters moved up to .338's , because they felt our 30/06's and .270's weren't adequate for bull elk.
Times have changed, and the heavy recoilers are gathering dust and hunters have had a rethink.
It is the amazing new bullets we use these days.
I think it has also questioned the kinetic energy as killing power mindset.
It has changed many of the rules.
The wound channel through vitals is a will work, if the tiny little bullet gets into and through and into the vitals. A ragged, deep wound channel, the mono's tend to penetrate deeply.

Yep.

For the last dozen years Eileen's "big" rifle has a 6-3/4 pound custom .308 Winchester. At first she used it with 150-grain Nosler E-Tips at around 2850 fps, and it worked great both in North America and Africa. But then her recoil headaches started in, and eventually she got a muzzle brake, a small one made and fitted by Helena gunsmith John McLaughlin. Even then, we had to drop down to the 130-grain Tipped TSX at about the same velocity to keep recoil below her tolerance level. (Nosler does not make a 130-grain .30 E-Tip.)

In 2017 she killed the biggest cow elk either of us has ever taken, as big as many mature bulls, at around 250 yards with one of the "little" TTSX's. The elk was quartering toward us, so she aimed for the near shoulder. At the shot the cow staggered for around 20-25 yards, obviously not long for the world, before dropping.

The little bullet had broken the leg just above the big shoulder joint, then gone through the lungs before stopping under the hide in the middle of the ribs on the far side. It had lost all its petals, but so what? One thing I've noticed over the years is that petal-type bullets (whether Barnes X's, E-Tips, Hornady GMX's or the old Fail Safe) kill at least as quickly, if not faster, when they lose petals. In fact, I found one of the petals from this bullet on the inside of the hole through the far ribs. As long as they fully penetrate the vitals, what difference does it make?

I remember all of those guys as well. My 338 was a 'deal' when I bought it. Shot it a few dozen times and even took a few elk with it. It's gone the way of the Dodo bird. The one 'heavy' kicker I sold that I'd like to have back is my Blaser. Should have just bought a different barrel.
My 30-06 weighs right at 7 lbs with scope and no pad. Thinking of getting a soft pad and doing like MD's Eileen did with her 308 and going to a lighter load.

I remember as my Dad got older he didn't enjoy shooting the 30-06 much. So, I gave him one of my 25-06's. He shot that rifle nearly as much as he did a 22 lr, he enjoyed it that much. (and he had a son that would reload for him as well)

An uncle of mine, in Dauphin and Northumberland County, did all his deer hunting for decades with a .22 Hornet. Vast majority were one shot kills.

I had a guide back in the 80's who lived in Laramie, WY, who for many years filled his personal mule deer and antelope tags with a Winchester M43 .22 Hornet, iron sights. Not a lick of finish left anywhere on that rifle- from years of riding uncased in the bed of his pickup.

When I run into guys here in our Maryland woods toting .300 Magnums (and bigger) I just smile, compliment them on their fine choice of whitetail deer rifles, and walk away thinking about Elmer Fudd for some reason. It seems that I run into at least one guy like that every year.

John I do remember that Bob Milek lost the sight in one of his eyes,not sure if it was from a detached retina. I did not remember Bob Brister suffering a detached retina,but am sure you are correct.

I do however remember John Wooters writing about a detached retina in his right eye. He was working on a 416 wildcat at the time if I remember correctly. Wooters wrote about shooting a 243 left handed since his left shoulder was pretty sensitive to recoil. Before this,he had not been a fan of the 243 for deer as a general rule.

It does appear that retinal detachment is an occupational and recreational hazzard for rifle loonies,

For those loonies who persist in shooting The Big Nasties, I presume.

Lots of rounds will work for tender shoulders..

One that I've been playing with for a couple of years is the 25 Creedmoor.. Only one reason I prefer it to the 6.5 or 6 for hunting, that is the 100 Nosler Ballistic Tip.
This bullet in the .25 is an outstanding killer of whitetails and similar sized game.. I have killed countless coyotes and maybe a dozen deer in different locations with this set up.. I really good velocities and accuracy using Lapua brass.. Just another fine option ....

Man...I should proof read before posting.

When the time comes that my 7x57 gets to be to much for me i have a 250 Savage to fall back on.

I also have a 6.5 Grendel as well as a 223.

but the way the 7x57 works i don't think it will be anytime soon.

I have a theory based on an example of one so maybe worthless. But two points. When the monos loose petals they may actually kill quicker. The only time I have recovered a mono that lost it's petals and was able to track some of it's path it appeared that it developed a wobble as it lost petals and then resumed a straight path after it the petals were shed and the bullet was shaped more like a wad cutter. This on a hog shot through both shoulders where I could see the bullet path in the shoulders. There was extensive damage to the heart & lungs so it is difficult to say if this was from bone fragments, the sheared petals, or a wobble or tumbling effect of the shank of the bullet? Whatever transpired it was very effective.

Back to sore shoulders: As a last resort I got an injection of cortisone directly in the offending shoulder before an elk hunt. This really worked but is not something you would want to do on a regular basis. Maybe something to ask your orthopedist about?

I forgot which archer it was who was one of the first modern archers to shoot elephant with a bow maybe Howard Hill But in order for him to draw his 125 lb. bow he resorted to cortisone as the practice had irritated his shoulder. He got his bull.

Tejano, The cortisone shot I got from my local VA 's PA was given from the right rear into the joint with no pain at all. It was a mix of 3 meds, a hyper quick short lived one that the PA dribbled out of the needle onece he got it placed, #2 was a "medium term" med 'posed to kick in about 10 days to a couple weeks later, and then a long term med that could last up to couple years. Best news was the NO Pain on the injection & being able to receive similar shots every 4 months for the rest of my life if need be. I do fudge a little with Tramadol when I over work schlepping antique furniture around and catching up on yard work left from the mid April storm that downed 6 120-160ft+ pine trees and left gaping root ball pits everywhere.

So far the shoulder has reponded most of the time except when I sleep on the right shoulder all nite without rolling over. The 50+ years of that sleep position was the result of a major surgery to rebuild my right urinary tract at 19 and sleeping "on the wound" was necessary to keep the dozen+ Maxipads in 3 layers from becoming dislodged. 'tween pad changes initally every 2 hours until the wound finally sealed.couple weeks later. Been about a month so far since the steroid shot...and planning a range trip in the next week or so to try out my Mod 70 Sporter in 270, with factory Lite Loads for starters at first. If I can shoot that then the Tikka 6.5 Swede and M70 Fwt 7x57 mauser are almost a for sure thing with medium loads.
Ron

That may be newer technology then when I had to do it. Great that it works. Maybe more healthy with the timed release aspect.

Myself, I am going to the city for some type of guided cortisone injection on Wednesday. I have had them before with no effect, maybe this is a newer formulation.
3 previous rotator cuff jobs has only made it more unbearable. Hurts like crap.
Sawbones wants to do a reverse replacement, but it also has its risks.
From the waist down I am still an athlete- legs and wind are strong.
Hard or medium recoiling rifles hurts a tad , it is great Mr Nosler started the current bullet revolution. Ditto to Randy from Barnes.
Me thinks the little .243 will be going up the Elk mountain this year with me if I am not in post surgery rehab

Those of us in Idaho who didn't know that a 243 (with appropriate bullets) was not an elk rifle have been killing elk with them for decades. Prior to the 243 a lot of the "old-time" guides used Savage 99's in 250/3000 but when the 243 came on the scene almost to a man they changed to it and went right on killing elk.

drover

I have a 7x57 waiting in the wings that I shoot occaisionally to develope loads for the time the .35 Whelen and Weatherby mags no longer work for my tired self.

Think long and hard about that. Make sure the Doc has done a few hundred a year. Mine was 18 months ago. It works "Almost". It is year before you feel some what comfortable with it. However, it will never work like the original equipment .It always feels stiff. The muscles you have to retrain since you will no longer have the rotator cuff muscles ache evervtime you use them. Neck, back, chest. PT is life time thing after.Stop and all those new muscles deteriorate fast

Saddlesore, thanks for the info.
I am skeptical about the replacement. Tough spot to be in, maybe in time they will improve the procedure.
I would like to rope steers again, and get off these painkillers.Maybe the new , improved injection will help...Osteo, now

i have decided not to do the replacement surgery ,surgeon told me if i did do the replacement shoulder surgery it would only work for a long time if i was very careful with lifting stuff with a limit of 15 lbs. on the shoulder that i got the replacement parts.as far as cortisone shots i have had many and that is a crap shoot too some work most don`t for very long. now some may laugh but i have had better luck with bee string therapy with honey bees the oriental people have used for centuries.

Tejano,

Randy Brooks told me 14 years ago, during a mule deer hunt, that the original X-Bullets pretty much lost their petals consistently, which he saw as a plus, since the detached petals resulted in more damage around the wound channel.

But then he started getting glowing reports from many hunters who had recovered Xs that retained all their petals (and hence weight). The reports weren't so much about killing power but 100% weight retention. This became an often-cited characteristic of his new bullet, both in hunting camps and gun magazines, so Randy (being a good businessman) decided to give customers what they wanted. He played with the bullet-making process until most would retain all their petals, especially if they didn't hit heavy bone along the way--but that was not his original intention, or or even what he considered desirable.

One of the interesting things about all this is the newer Long Range X-Bullets (LRXs) are built to open easier at longer ranges, where velocity has fallen off, so do lose petals more than the TSXs or Tipped TSXs.

My surgeon only placed a few limitations.Certain movements and no high impact use like using a sledge hammer on concrete. As far as lifting he said as long as I use good mechanics ( proper lifting techniques ) I should have no problem.The first test was lifting hind quarters from a big bull elk I killed last October onto the pack mule.That was about 10 months after surgery, so maybe I am not out of the woods about that long term thing. Of course turning 76 next months, I don't have real good prognosis for long term anything.

If you need a new shoulder though,you probably can't lift 15 pounds over your head anyway. Prior to replacement, I could do work down low,but anything above my waist,my arm hung down like it wasn't even mine.

This is what a 140 Partition looks like from a 7mm-08 after it hits a 4x4 Roosevelt bull in the left scapula, travels through both lungs, breaks a rib, then comes to rest under the hide of the right shoulder.




Dead in the tracks he was standing in when I shot him.




P

I like the LRX's for close or far shots. If I ever run out of projects to do ( not likely) I will score some X bullets on the ogive to encourage petal separation but to still have a base to expand. Ross Siegfried did this but didn't report about the results much that I read. The Lehigh and the Raptor and I think some Hammer bullets are designed this way. No doubt any of them would be good but then so are plane Jane bullets like the ballistic tip and many others.

Back to the shoulder thing. The improvements in bullets make much smaller cartridges viable choices for medium game. The 22 & 6mms for deer and the 6mms and 6.5s for elk.
I will carry something larger for as long as I can but I am comforted in the fact that I can take an an elk cleanly with my 6mms or 25 caliber rifles, with good bullets of course.

Have used the Cutting Edge Raptors and Lehigh bullets enough to get some idea of how they perform. That and my experience with over 150 Barnes X's, Fail Safes, E-Tips and GMX's indicates losing petals probably does result in quicker kills. But as with any "field tests" with expanding bullets, there are lots of variables.

But as always the major effect of any expanding big game bullet comes from placement, as long as penetration is sufficient, whether lead-cored or monolithic, not how much weight or number of "petals" they retained.

About the only time I shoot my .35 Whelen anymore is just before my next elk hunt to be sure it's still sighted in. I'm getting signs that arthritis is in both shoulders and recoil doesn't make them feel any better. My load run a 225 gr. Barnes TSX at 2510 FPS at the muzzle.

My 30-06 pushing a 165 gr. Accubond at 2880 FPS isn't much better so I don't shoot it all that much any more. I do have a .280 Rem isn't all that bad with recoil even with top loads because it's so damn heavy.

What all this boils down to is I've been playing with few rifles in 7x57 and loading the ammo at or close to 7-08 levels. I get decent results with the 150 gr. Partition, but not with the ABLR. None of the rifles seem to like the 160 gr. Speer hot Core and so far the 140 gr. Barnes TSX has been a disaster. I'm kind of leery regarding the 7x57 as the only two animals I have ever lost were shot with a 7x57. Dunno if that's something significant or like some kind of message but it is what it is. I know the Whelen will do the job and the 06 works nicely. ll I can ad to that is bullet failure was responsible I believe on the first deer and my body on the second loss, so nothing to blame on the cartridge, just bad luck.
Paul B.

Comerade, Have you considered an auto-loading, gas gun? I own 3 browning BAR II stalkers in .243, 30-06, and 338 win. (These are the ones with black synthetic stocks, parkerized finish, and iron sights.) While the BARs are a little heavier than most hunting/bolt rifles, these stalkers are lighter than most BARs. Felt recoil is much less than my bolt rifles, of the same caliber. I found a gunsmith that put 2.75 lb triggers on all three trigger groups. Once I figured out the right forearm torque and ammo each gun likes, 1/2" 3 shot groups are the norm, for all three rifles.

These guns are very recoil friendly, add a softer/aftermarket recoil pad, they should be even more so. I would think a 308 or 06 would serve you well?

Andy3

Hi Andy, no I would not find an auto loader of much use in this country. The rifles are dragged through all weather conditions and horseback. Browning makes great stuff though.Thanks for the input.

on my Perazzi trap gun i have a Grayco recoil pad that reduces recoil to maybe half ? i have considered putting one on my 300 Win.Mag. ? rifle will weigh more but my shoulder will feel better too .

Anddddddd..there you go. For anything in the lower 48 that most of us will ever get to hunt, the .243 will work just fine.

If its smaller than say....300 pounds, the .223 with proper bullets works just fine..

Both easy on the shoulder.

Agreed!