I have been thinking a bit recently due to reading John's article on shot placement and killing power. One common thread that I noticed in the article was the presence of fairly high muzzle velocity (at least when compared to cast bullets). I wonder how quick the killing would be if one shot an animal 1/2 way up the body, and in line with the front leg while using a cast bullet with a wide frontal area (meplat), plodding along at a 2100 fps mark. I have a 230 grain mold that I plan on using for my 358 Win that has a nice .25 inch meplat. It got me wondering what that bullet would do when trundling along at 2100 fps shot through both shoulders. I have read that the wide meplat tends to wound disproportionate to its diameter, in other words a 35 caliber bullet that does not expand should still create a healthy wound channel. The only experience I have shooting game with cast is a 45-70, where it puts a pretty big hole in what it hits. I do not have the luxury of shooting more than 2-3 deer a year (I live in Pa) and do not make enough to go on other hunts. So my chance to experiment is very limited. Just curious if any of you have shot (or observed others shooting) animals with cast bullets at lower velocity, and how quickly game succumbed to the wounds, especially when shot through the shoulders.

A wide meplat is what does the killing with cast bullets. I liken it to putting a bulldozer in gear. It might move slowly, but whatever is in front of it will fall.

My own experience is deer fall much the same as with a jacketed bullet. They don't run any farther when shot with a cast vs jacketed 30-30 bullet. It will be the same for a 35. I develop cast loads that allow the alloy to obturate and seal the bore to help accuracy. I use BHN 15 alloy with gas checks and try to keep the maximum loads around 28 to 30KPSI. These are 150 yd loads for the most part. If your reloading manual publishes pressure data, your loads should fall between 22 to 35 KPSI. Keeping them here will allow the bullet to obturate and not lead.

Steve gives excellent advice. 1500 fps is plenty, 1600 fps is more than enough.

Yup. And on top of that I use straight unhardened wheelweights, at around 12 bhn, noticeably softer than 15 and measured with a hardness tester. No leading and superb accuracy is the rule. Deer whacked with .30-.35 soft wide meplat bullets at 1600-2000 fps tend to die. (Plus, think of the money saved over jacketed stuff, and less wear and tear on the gun and shooter. No downside.)

Is that the NOE 230? Great bullet. I would say that if you shot anything in North America through both shoulders with that bullet propelled that fast, that the animal, whatever it is, would be down in a handful of steps. But you don't need to shoot them near that fast, or cast them near that hard to have good effect. I've used that bullet loaded long and warm out of a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 Mag, at 1100fps and change, cast somewhat less hard than hardball. It went through the moose, an old cow that was likely dry. She was a GIANT, for a lower 48 moose. She lived in a river bottom next to some corn fields for many years. We could barely move her with an F250 and 2500lb tow strap.

Have shot it at close to 2100 out of a Whelen, but not at animals. If we are talking PA deer, I doubt you would be able to catch one, at any velocity, at any angle.

Yes that is the NOE 230. That moose story is certainly encouraging!

You'd have to cast that bullet very hard to make it not expand at 2100 fps; and at that point it's likely to fracture the nose. Even 16-18 Bhn will expand plenty and a large flat nose like that is a bit overkill for 2,000+ fps.

The couple of times early on, 40-45 years ago when I got it in my head that harder was better, I stuck a few sinfully hard bullets into deer who proceeded to die heartbreakingly slow. I don't remember the alloy other than it was made of type metal softened with some pure-ish lead. Thumb nail testing would leave a mark if I pressed pretty hard, probably around 18-19bhn, give or take. (Hardness tester? What was that?) Then at a BS session at the CBA (Cast Bullet Association) Nationals, circa 1980, old Frank Marshall took me to task and straightened my butt out regarding the need for screaming hard alloys for any purpose other than target shooting at high-ish velocity (and even then there are exceptions to the rule). Since then I've enjoyed hunting with cast a whole lot more.

gnoahhh,

Exactly.

Have some experience with both cast and much harder "solid" bullets on big game weighing up to a ton or so. Yes, a flat front end enhances "killing power" (meaning overall tissue damage) considerably, but a less than super-hard cast bullet kills much better, even when started at black powder velocities.

Harder solid bullets work much better with wider flat-noses, or even "dished" front ends.

The reason for all of this is the same, the phenomenon known as cavitation.

Cast bullets ...... bison don't care for them at all.

Don't know if it will help in your decision, but a 12 Bhn, 265 gr !/2 caliber flatnose in the 38-55 traveling at a sedate 1480 at the muzzle does just as well in 7/8" pine boards as the 30-40 using a 170 gr Lee gas check, approx 15 Bhn doing 1800 from the muzzle. My pine "media" was hand selected and shot at 75 yards. The penetration was statistically the same, within 5%, but the diameter of the "wound channel" was dramatically larger. I know, I know, I'm comparing apple and kumquats but still I have utter faith in the 265 gr. which, by the way, shoved the 45 pound bullet box back about 4 inches. 13.5 boards for the .38-55 and 14 boards for the .30-40. A small blacktail killed with the .38-55 showed no bloodshot in the meat...but I cannot comment on lethality because at the 45 yards shot, a .32-20 would have worked nicely.

This is a very interesting and informative link, that gives much insight into bullet performance on animals......a good section on cast bullets. Though, those that think that ft/lbs. energy is the “Holy Grail” of bullet performance, will be disappointed. memtb


http://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

My 45-110 launched a 485 gr Parker Hale at a buffler at 1330 FPS. As I came off recoil, all four legs were up in the air. The range was 94 yards. The bullet remained inside (shot through the shoulder) but was not recovered unfortunately. If I remember correctly, the hardness was 20. Shot in the same place I shoot everything, about a third of the way up into the shoulder..

Outstanding link, thanks very much..

jorge1, You bet! I think that all shooters/hunters should read this! While it may not be “the” definitive answer to all aspects of shooting and terminal ballistics.....I think that it’s pretty close! memtb

Skimming Rathcoombe's work, one thing jumps out to me...it wasn't an accident that Finn Aagaard used the Remington .30-06, 180 gr Cor-lokt as the basis for comparison of medium game calibers and bullets. And as a postscript: Gary Schiuchetti did a masterful test of hunting bullets, some years back for Handloader....the short conclusion? The Remington 180 gr Core-lokt roundnose and the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw took the cake. Unfortunately, the gunwriters convinced hunters they needed boat tail machine gun design bullets that hit 4 inches higher at 400 yards and the much lamented 180 round nose has gone the way of the dinosaur. Please do not roast me, I shoot boat tails at long range targets, they are wonderful. I fill the freezer with generic flat base bullets, they too are wonderful.

Another thing to consider for big game shooting with, say, bullets .30 and larger is paper patching. (Below .30 it gets to be a PIA.) Cast a bullet, smooth sided or with grooves, doesn't seem to matter much) that is bore diameter not groove diameter, and wrap it with two layers of suitable tough paper to bring it up to groove diameter. It allows the use of dead soft lead in bullets that would lead the bore ferociously if utilized "normally"- which in turn guarantees world class expansion (if there is such a thing) at even lowered velocities. Plenty of tutorials abound, I won't bore you with the mechanics of it here. Our great great great grandloonies knew all about that trick.

Thanks for that link. Great work there.

I see the North Carolina study link. I am familiar with that one, hard vs. soft bullets on WT's and how far they travel after being hit.

Great reference source, saved it to bookmarks.

DF

Thanks for the info guys. I just got Veral Smith's book Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets and have been reading that in my spare time.I would say he surely seems to know what he is talking about. I suspected as much, just wanted more input. I do realize that unless the bullets are cast pretty hard, they will still mushroom. The thing i was not sure about was powder-coating. I will probably powder-coat these bullets, and was not sure how much expansion there would be. Looked on YouTube to see if anybody had done a test, and sure enough! There is a guy that has quite a few casting and powder-coating videos, and he shot some powder-coated bullets into ballistics gelatin. Most were things that did not interest me, but he did shoot a 230 grain (I think) bullet supersonic form a 300 blackout. He had cast it from about 10 BHN lead, powder-coated it, and shot it at approximately 1600 fps into the gel block. That thing came out with a beautiful mushroom, and penetrated maybe 16-18 inches of gel. So I am thinking of trying to replicate that. Cut my COWW with SOWW to make it softer, powder-coat it, push it 1700-1900 fps, and shoot me a few deer!

There you go! Experimentation is what it's all about, and which moves the science of bullet casting forward. I'm nowhere near done with exploring all the back alleys of traditional cast bullet artistry so am not inclined to venture too far into the "new" realms- but I do follow new innovations with interest. I doubt very seriously that I'll ever make the time to try powder coating, but I recognize its merits.

One of the reasons I shoot so many reduced cast loads is to escape getting smacked around by long bench sessions with sharp kicking light rifles. If I adopted such tricks as paper patching and/or powder coating as a means to up velocity into the realm of "factory velocities", then I'm defeating that purpose. I shoot all year with cast (even in .22's) and when hunting opportunities approach I switch to full snort jacketed loads if the situation demands it (which really isn't very often anymore). That scenario is limited to sub-.30 caliber stuff like .250-3000 and .22 CF's, for example.** .30 Caliber anything I just head out with the cast stuff. (Jury is still out regarding my approach in that respect with the 6.5x55, I just started working with it.)

** Reason being that I firmly believe that mass of a cast bullet is a factor in its "killing" ability, and the mass/weight of .22-.25 cast projectiles is a detriment in that regard when driven at low/modest velocity (old timers and stunt shooters with their .25-20's and .32-20's notwithstanding!).

Pretty much convinced that if you can shoot, there's almost no wrong choice for killing deer. Follow you notions.

Almost picked up some of the Nosler 220gr BTs designed for the Blackout, but a glance at the pile of stuff on (and under) my bench quenched that yen. The deer-killing que is long enough as it is.

If you're going for 1700-1900 fps, straight clip on wheel weights, air cooled, will do exactly what you need. If you make it too soft, the nose will blow off, and a large flat nose makes that worse; speaking from personal experience.

Large flat noses are great for pistol-velocity cast bullets, but they are not ideal at rifle velocity where smaller flat noses work better.

Powder coating has no effect on bullet expansion, have at it.

I cut my COWW with enough SOWW to get the antimony content down to about 1%, then added about 4% tin, and water-dropped them. They shoot accurately out of the 357 revolver at 357+P pressure, and as I said, I got them just above 2K fps out of the Whelen, but the more accurate load was 1900 and change. When I hunt with them in the Whelen, I will shoot them at the lower velocity.

Speed is not the first priority with flatnose cast bullets, because the work they do doesn't require bullet deformation. Veral Smilth discusses this in his book. So there are two basic camps that Campfire members have fallen into in this thread: shooting pretty soft bullets at speeds that allow them to mushroom handily without fracturing, and shooting fairly hard bullets at speeds that won't cause them to fracture on impact, thus allowing the bullet meplat to do its job. I've done a lot of testing, usually in some combination of water jugs and OSB, and I've found the latter camp is easier to get to shoot well. But I don't have any experience with paper patching. I've also found that in-between the two camps is a third arena, where bullets are shot fast enough that the nose WILL fragment a bit, and then the rest of the bullet, basically a cylinder with a riveted nose, continues to go on through. Just like a Nosler Partition. I've only tested this on a couple deer, but so far, it seems to work just as I thought it would. I've not recovered bullets from animals, but I have recovered lead fragments through the wound channel. I saw no problems with this performance, and I intentionally did not aim at shoulders. Just another tool in the tool kit.

As well, I won't harden bullets by adding much antimony to alloys beyond a couple percent, because antimony has a tendency to make bullets more brittle. I rely on grain refiners like copper, sulphur, or arsenic to add hardness, and I water-drop nearly all of my bullets, for convenience' sake.. Tin adds a small amount of hardness, but can also add ductility to alloys that want to be brittle.

I don't know if you've ever heard of Glen Fryxell, but he has done lots of fine writing on cast bullets, casting, hunting with cast bullets. Much of his writing, or maybe all of it, is on www.lasc.us, including his book and dozens of articles he has written. I learned quite a bit from his writings.

Oh my, I kneel before that throne too....







Pure lead, ~1,600 fps, 300 grains and impact at about 80 yards. Retained weight ~285 grains after breaking both forelegs, 5 ribs and slicing the top off the heart.


Another deer bites the dust...

This thread provides ample proof that jacketed bullets are just a passing fad. This is a representative target of the 173 gr. Lyman 31141, GC with 33.0 grains of 3031, shot from a 30-303. That's a 303 British with a 308 barrel. It mopes along at a little less than 2000 fps. It's my LR cast deer getter that reaches out to 150 yd.

Have one of those 31141 moulds and they shoot about the same from my .30-30s. Good bullet. Mine cast a bit heavier, in part I suspect because I'm using a wee bit softer alloy, BHN around 11-12. 185 gr after lube. Velocity I was getting in the 2100 fps range.

I like that bullet in my 30-30 too. In fact, that's why I loaded some up for the 30-303. I have a few hundred sitting around that I cast last year, I think. They're getting blue molded.

Going to do a wide meplat test this year using the 310 gr. LEE WFN from my 444 Marlin. Planning on using 50/50 pure lead and wheelweights pushed to 1600-1700 FPS. I just bet it works on both hogs and deer just fine.

Shot a hog some years back with the .44 load pictured above, little piggy weighing around 150#. Hit him on the point of the right shoulder and retrieved the bullet under the hide on the offside ham. Shattered the shoulder blade, ribs, spine and hip along the way. Near about turned the little squealer inside out. Pure lead wrapped in paper and modest velocity....DRT.

I have taken a pretty fair number of deer with pure lead round balls and Mini balls in various muzzle loaders and am still impressed with their ability to penetrate, especially the round balls in 50 or 54 caliber.

Cast bullets dont have a jacket to help regulate expansion. Like jacketed bullets, the shape of the nose and velocity also play a role in the expansion. Flats expand easier than spitzers.

Velocity plays another role. Fat meplats and larger calibers expand at lower velocity than the opposite. Hollow points of a decent starting cavitation increase expansion again.

The next is alloy composition and Brinell hardness. As speed goes up, softer alloys expand more. Ductile alloys of lead and tin squish, alloys with progressively more antimony powder and high antimony break off into chunks.

Hard alloys in lead drilling through deer sized critters ALWAYS is not true. Drive the right caliber to the right impact speed with the right nose and they will work. The trick is knowing where that threshold is, on both ends with the caliber, nose shape and alloy composition and hardness you are using.
Yes, a 30 caliber 22 BHN bullet might not even nick on a shoulder hit deer at 1800 fps.. At 2500 and change impact, it's probably going to replicate the damage of a jacketed bullet, probably a bit more.

The best rifle application is making a softnosed slug. I've shot critters with 28 BHN shanks and 1-20 soft noses (like a Partition or H Mantel) with literally a beer can diameter wound all the way through critters. At 2,500 fps impact no less. Yes, the load chronographed about 2550 and I doubt at 35 yards the bullet slowed down much.
The nose starts expansion and also cushions the rear shank at high impact velocity.
I just made some Linotype 22 Hornets at around the 2,900 fps mark. Inside 100 yards the small flat and high antimony alloy turns plastic bottles into twisted gore.
Perfect.

They really arent much different than jacketed bullets, other than you have to create the parameters of the bullet, instead of just loading a manufactured known quantity and making the bullet work for you, then replicating it. Ww metal/tin at around 2,000 fps in most deer cartridges is pretty well known for working at normal hunting ranges. It's just one recipe.
I suppose if one makes beer, bread or spaghetti sauce the notion is understandable.

Thirty or so years ago, the editor of "The Fouling Shot" (Cast Bullet Association magazine) mentioned that the softest bullet that fits and does not lead at the desired velocity will generally be the most accurate. While I think he was referring only to accuracy in his editorial, a soft bullet is likely also best for most hunting.

Don't have much use for hard bullets.

When people who do not cast their own, ask about busnesses up here that sell hard cast bullets, I give them the names of two guys who will make what they need. I explain that hard bullets are usually not what you want. Then, I recommend Lyman No 2 or softer and provide them with some Lyman loads.

For hunters who want to start casting their own, I tell them to buy a Lyman Cast Bullet book, have a read, and keep it simple. Besides Lyman No. 2 alloy, I recommend two or three popular molds from which to choose, to learn on. I invite them over if schedules permit.

Work through the learning curve. Shoot, and be happy.

Air cooled clip on ww alloy, no tin or pure lead. This 9mm bullet starts with a .260" meplat, rivets out to .310" at 1400 fps, and expanded to .600" at 1700 fps. At 2000 fps it comes apart and a harder alloy is needed. No hollow point or soft alloys are necessary at the higher speeds with a large flat nose.

In my experience this is the same performance I get with a WFN 44 or 45 bullet from straight WW alloy. If mixing with 50/50 pure lead the bullet noses blow off at 1700 fps from too much expansion.

Here's the Saeco #352 245gr bullet, also air cooled ww, 2100 fps from a 35 Remington. Starts with a .180" meplat, which is plenty for this velocity range and alloy, maybe a little too much. The expanded bullet was recovered from wet paper, the damaged bullet from dry paper.

Guys, be cautious of too much expansion with the wrong combination of soft alloys, large flat points, and higher velocity.

Sharps rifles, heavy for caliber hard cast bullets in 1886 50-110, 45-70 and 40-65 along with heavy 44 mag, 45 Colt and 454C, pick your path to the vitals 'regardless' of the angle presented, I like double shoulders when I can get them.

Reading this thread attentively.

I am in the process of preparing for rifle season for whitetail next week. One of my goals this year is to take a deer (probably a doe) with my uncle's Colt SAA 45 LC, 1907 vintage. I posted a couple of years earlier about inheriting, really rescuing, this pistol. She obviously has some age on her but she's still accurate and a pleasure to shoot. My preferred load is the cast 250 grain Keith SWC atop 6.0-6.5 grains of Red Dot for around 800-825 fps. I'd keep my shots inside my already self imposed maximum range for my Black Widow recurve bow....twenty yards. I have been contemplating a shoulder shot vs a lung shot and honestly have not arrived at an answer yet for this situation.

Love that wide meplat on that bullet....want to see what she does.

Opinions?

That's a good application for a really soft alloy. Even with a shoulder shot, I'd go no harder than a 50/50 WW/pure lead alloy, and maybe just use pure lead with a bit of tin. I don't see much need or advantage in going with anything harder.

IMO I think you could safely use a lung or shoulder shot with that scenario, whatever presents itself best when the time comes.

Thanks for the input.