John:

Did you happen to catch Dave Anderson's article in Guns (Dec 19) on the 7x57 being a sort of long action Creedmoor? I was just wondering what your thoughts are. Evidently, those long throats for the old cartridge might come in handy after all!

Mike

Mike. Not Mule Deer but I just read it myself. Interesting concept. I have the push feed M70 FWT, and an early red pad Ruger #1 in 7x57. My Mauser has the 1 in 8.5" twist but if giving me fits due to high pressure problems. Gonna have to take some measurements the next time out at the range. The rifle has a very tight chamber and fired brass barely shows a pressure ring at all so I'm thinking the rifle was chambered with a reamer that was sharpened maybe one time too many and the neck portion of the chamber might be quite tight. Guess I'll have to use a few rounds of factory and hand loads and get measurements from both. I've noted before that hand load made to duplicate the 1892/3 load with 175 gr. bullets gave normal velocities but the Mauser 100 FPS higher and then some. Even so, I can't come close to what the M70 and #1 do in velocity with he Mauser.
BTW, have you seen the new Speer #15 Manual? It's got some interesting speeds for the 7x57. I was kind of worried about my Re17 load that did 2900 FPS as maybe being a bit too much but while Speer didn't use Re17 with a 150 gr. bullet they did with their 160 gr. bullet and it's just below what I use for the 150 gr. Nosler. With Re17 they start with 40.4gr. for 2460 FPS and top out at 44.0 for 2646 FPS. They used a 24" barrel.

Mike. Not Mule Deer but I just read it myself. Interesting concept. I have the push feed M70 FWT, and an early red pad Ruger #1 in 7x57. My Mauser has the 1 in 8.5" twist but if giving me fits due to high pressure problems. Gonna have to take some measurements the next time out at the range. The rifle has a very tight chamber and fired brass barely shows a pressure ring at all so I'm thinking the rifle was chambered with a reamer that was sharpened maybe one time too many and the neck portion of the chamber might be quite tight. Guess I'll have to use a few rounds of factory and hand loads and get measurements from both. I've noted before that hand load made to duplicate the 1892/3 load with 175 gr. bullets gave normal velocities but the Mauser 100 FPS higher and then some. Even so, I can't come close to what the M70 and #1 do in velocity with he Mauser.
BTW, have you seen the new Speer #15 Manual? It's got some interesting speeds for the 7x57. I was kind of worried about my Re17 load that did 2900 FPS as maybe being a bit too much but while Speer didn't use Re17 with a 150 gr. bullet they did with their 160 gr. bullet and it's just below what I use for the 150 gr. Nosler. With Re17 they start with 40.4gr. for 2460 FPS and top out at 44.0 for 2646 FPS. They used a 24" barrel.

VLD bullets often need shorter throats, not longer.

Mike, I'm not Mule Deer either...but you knew that...

You should also know that it is the purest form of heresy to put "7x57" and "Creedmoor" in the same sentence, let alone the same paragraph or even article.

You need repentance ....bad.

Mike,

Haven't read GUNS in close to a year, since parting ways with them.

But the second chapter of GUN GACK II uses the 7x57 (specifically my custom rifle) to demonstrate the advantages of higher BC in moderate-velocity rifles.

Well John it looks like you just sold me another book! After adding my 3rd 7x57 two weeks ago, an older Ruger no. 1 to go along with my Hawkeye African 275 and CZ 550 l’m hungry for more reference material.

Interesting comments; much appreciated.

I need repentance from a lot of things!!

I wondered about that considering that there is an article written by you on page 48 of the same issue. I'll pull Gack II and re-read it. Thanks for the tip.

That was a leftover article, that for some reason they decided to hold rather than run it at the scheduled time. I just got the check the other day, but no contributor's copy of the issue--at least so far.

Ah. That makes sense.

BTW, I'm going to derail my own thread. Did I read someplace that you bought one of the new Mausers? Maybe a M12 or M18?

I haven't read the Guns article but if you examine the throat diameter on the Creedmoor vs. the 7x57, you'll find that one of the Creedmoor's greatest attributes (extremely limited throat-to-bullet clearance) is not comparable on the 7x57, at least according to the CIP drawings.

I'm certainly not Mule Deer.

Let's be clear on that.

Thank you.

Right. But I think his point was that the longer throat on the 7x57 allows the bullets to be seated farther out, thereby not encroaching on powder space with heavy for caliber bullets, one of the things the Creedmoor was designed to avoid.

On that point, it's a fair comparison. I only shoot 175gr. Partitions in my 7x57 so I guess I'm ahead of the game.

Actually, the Creedmoor was NOT designed with powder space in mind, but being able to seat longer bullets securely, without part of the ogive inside the neck.

Plus, it takes a large-caliber bullet seated DEEPLY in a small-capacity case to even make 100 fps of difference in velocity. In smaller calibers like 6.5 the difference in powder space when, say, seating bullets 1/4" deeper is so small it's insignificant.

John,

Mr. Anderson had a picture of a high BC bullet loaded in both the 7x57 and .280 Rem. The ogive of the bullet was inside the neck on the .280, not even close on the 7x57.

Both the Ingwe Special and my old Zastava M98 like them a lot.

Yes, that can be true--but also depends on magazine length, and also throat length of 7x57's.

But my point involved your claim that the 6.5 Creedmoor was designed to allow bullets to be seated out there they don't decrease powder room. That is not true. In fact, the CM case body is short enough that powder capacity is slightly less LESS than the .260 Remington's , no matter what bullet is used.

The major point was NOT powder capacity, but the ogive/neck relationship in standard short magazines, which are about 2.85 inches long.

Actually it was his claim that one of the reasons the Creedmoor was developed was to avoid powder encroachment. I don't know enough about the history of the cartridge to have an opinion on it one way or the other; but yeah, he also mentioned magazine length, ogive length, etc. I believe he's going to follow-up with a similar article about the 6.5x55.

Maybe he read your Gack II article!

I guess I'm a lucky guy.....while I have no complaints on the 7 x 57 or any such cartridge I simply choose to avoid such issues and chamber my guns to the .280 Remington......it just seems to be the thing to do

I've been giving that some thought.

vapodog,

Why do you bother with that newfangled fad of a .280, when the .30-06 will do anything it will, and more?

Lol speaking for myself....because its hard to shoot a 120 grain 308 bullet with a .400 bc.

...that said...i am a rifle whore with a 30-06 Any way lol

i built a 25 Creedmoor it shoots good but i feel it should maybe shoot better ,i guess i will have to play with it more it does have a new Brux #7 size - 7 1/2 twist barrel .

i also built a 257 Roberts with a Brux #3 size - 7 1/2 twist barrel it shoots as good as the 25 Creedmoor so far and the 257 Roberts is a 7x57 type cartridge case and this is just a hunting rifle with only a few bell`s and whistles. but it is a long action rifle compared to the short action Creedmoor. nice part about a 257 Roberts is very little recoil too and dang accurate cartridge also . i plan on giving these 257 Roberts rifles to my grandchildren and daughter and will load and buy plenty ammo for them too.

the Creedmoor cartridge is just another good accurate cartridge but if you want a accurate,less recoil,proven winner on the bench even out too 1000 yards just buy a 6mm B.R. it is just more fun to shoot !

M.D. is right too a simple 30-06 is and always will be hard to beat for hunting ,i purchased another 30-06 in a pump for use in trailing wounded critters ,ammo can be purchased easy in any place in the world.

What we need is a 6.5 Rigby, If I ever put together a 6.5x57 I think I will get it stamped 6.5 Rigby.

Rigby wouldn't use millimeters.

We also need a 7.62 Creedmoor....

Oops, my mistake. We already have the .300 Savage.

Welllll….again quite simply.....I already have four functional.30-06 rifles and two .270 rifles.....If one is afflicted with the deadly gun builders disease, then the .280 fits well.....besides, they make great gifts to ranchers where I kill elk and want to reward them for any special efforts they make in assisting the removal of the carcass to the camp. A 7 x 57 just don't fit well in the hands of folks that aren't serious reloaders.

And yes, I'm now taking meds to reduce the urge to build more guns.....

Good heavens. Call 1-800-222-1222 right away!


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Loaded to full steam in a bolt gun that's what it is. My 700 Classic loves long seated 168 VLD Bergers.

True this...

I know you jest, but the 7.62 Creedmoor was quite literally the 30 TC.

Your comments about the Creedmoor and powder space are spot on. I'm not sure why but there is a common misconception that somehow bumping the shoulders back on the Creemoor (compared to the 260) results in less encroachment on powder space. As you said, it has less powder space in loaded form, not more. It was mostly all about the ogive and long bullet noses, as you said.

Yondering,

Yeah, I know the 7.62 Creedmoor is the .300 T/C! And the only real difference between the .300 Savage and the .30 T/C is the T/C's slightly longer neck. As another gun writer mentioned (in a private conversation) when the .30 T/C appeared, "Hornady and T/C went to a lot of trouble to reinvent the .300 Savage."

I have also mentioned in print, more than once, that Hornady's claim that the 6.5 Creedmoor is a completely original case design is somewhat questionable. I saw my first 6.5 CM case in 2010,and it reminded me a LOT of the RCBS .250 Savage Improved--which had a 28-degree shoulder. And in my first article on the 6.5 Creedmoor, published that year, I described how to fire-form .22-250 cases to 6.5 Creedmoor with the Cream of Wheat method--which works very well.

An awful lot of "new and completely original" cartridges go back to Charles Newton's .250-3000--and the .300 Savage, which was essentially a follow-up on the same case.

I do have somewhere a reamer that is for the 6.5x257 roberts ai. 40degree shoulder.

My bad a .256 Rigby.

458 Creedmoor ? maybe call it > alot of Creedmoor

Nosler manual #4 had a load for the 280 Remington, with the 160-162g bullets at 2950 that I found to be spot on. The new Hornady VLD-X in 162g at 2950 out of a 24" barrel is tremendous.

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That might be the Creedmost!