Since I started reloading in 2000, I've been a full-length resize kind of guy. I'm mostly a hunter that shoots and not the other way around. Then I started reading here and got hooked on the idea of Lee Collet dies. I tried them and all of a sudden I'm shooting much more accurately, so I start buying Lee Collet dies for all my regularly shot chamberings.

I've forgotten one thing: after you start neck sizing, when do you give the brass its next full-length resize?

Mule Deer is kinda the Guru of reloading he will give the better answer. but in the world of bench shooting most no longer neck size its been proven full length sizing is actually more accurate in consistency . good luck and Merry Christmas,Pete53

When the brass gets hard to chamber its time to size the shoulder/body back.

Many folks, me included don't do a full resize, we use a redding body die to size the shoulder back down and then use the collet die for the neck. Actually I don't wait for the brass to get hard to chamber but I do the body die and anneal on the 5th load. I have found that routine coupled with good brass and avoiding chasing the last little bit of velocity has left me with nearly infinite brass life, well at least really good brass life.

Not a gunwriter here, but since everyone seems to feel free to respond in this forum I'll go ahead and follow suit...any misstatements tend to be corrected by a bonafide genuine gunwriter anyway...

My own practice is to continue neck sizing only until I begin to notice undue or unusual effort required to lock the bolt down on a round. I'll make note of it and the next time I begin to process that batch of brass for a reload, I'll use a body die to bump the shoulder back two or three thousandths. A properly adjusted FL die will accomplish the task also.

Many say they never have to do this, but I often do myself. I suppose it may depend on the cartridge geometry, the rifle's chamber, the quality of the brass, maybe the pressures you're loading to, or a host of other factors such as the dies or other equipment.

That's my two cents worth, yours free.

Lee Collet dies are great for hunting rifles and competition rifles. I know people who use both in competition. Many more use the LCD for their hunting rifles.

As Riverrider said, when you feel resistance to chambering a loaded cartridge. The shoulder has crept forward just enough that the cartridge becomes a press fit.

This next thing will start a lively debate, so I'll throw it out there and see where it goes. Forster makes a bushing bump die. It's a specialty product that uses a bushing to reduce the neck enough to hold the bullet without overdoing it. At the same time, it will bump back the shoulder just enough to chamber the cartridge with little or no resistance.

Personally, I don't bother with a bump die for my hunting rifles, but I have a few specialty rifles where I use them. I do not believe that they are necessary for any off the rack rifle. A Lee Collet die and a body die (or the FL sizing die you got with your die set) will do just fine.

Do a search on the Forster bushing bump die. You can judge for yourself whether you want to get one.

Thanks all.

OK. Help me out with nother related questions:

How does a body die differ from a full-length sizing die?

If you remove the expander ball from a FL die and then run it through a Collet neck sizer, then what?

The FL die squeezes the neck, the body die doesn't.

OK. That makes sense.

I use the body die on every firing, I like things consistent. I also anneal every firing for the same reason, but that wasn’t the question.

if you want better dies use Redding dies and probably the best would be Redding full length bushing die ,guys that do well in competition use the better brand dies and Redding is one of them. Lee, RCBS and many other lower priced brand dies are fine for hunting rifles . maybe buy some of Mule Deer`s books on reloading and volumes 1 & 2 gun gack books also. myself when i shoot my competition rifles i always use a Redding full length bushing dies with the correct bushing for that cartridge and rifle ,small things in reloading make big differences in group size.

I only neck size, and I do like the Lee Collet dies for the purpose. We had a bit of a discussion on the subject a couple of years ago: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12428682/1

I have seen one video making this claim. I don't hang on any benchrest site often, so I don't know what they're saying or what the consensus is. I am not sure where the video was shot and I do not know which discipline the shooters were following but almost all of them told the interviewer they used FL sizing. I did not hear a single mention of whose FL dies they're using, though. Not knowing who this crowd really is, I take it all with a grain of salt. Next time there's a benchrest match at my club I may just take a little survey of my own.

For a hunting rifle, I'd use Lee collet dies as long as there are no chambering problems for the simple reason that along with getting very straight necks, no lube is required. That matters when you sit down to load 500 rounds of .223!

Absolutely. Faster and not as messy.

And the Lee sizes the whole neck, the Redding does not.

with respect your right new lower priced dies are fine to use for your hunting rifles. its just after 40 some years of reloading rifle ammo i have noticed i can reload and/or load new brass better with better equipment that shoots smaller groups. i used the lower priced reloading equipment for a couple of years ,until i started shooting bench rest competition ,the first time there i got a education on how and what reloading equipment should be used to shoot better groups . good luck and have a Merry Christmas,Pete53

Are you saying that you have never seen Lee collet dies in the trailers or loading areas at a BR match? I hope so because I haven’t either.😃

$20 gets you 99% there with no mess or fuss. Life is good! Brass life is unbelievable. Accuracy is superb. What's not to like?

For $300, a lot of mess and fuss, and triple the reloading time you can improve your groups by 1/4" at 500 yrd's though. Neccassary if your a competition benchrest shooter, insane amount of work if your loading for a hunting rifle IMO.

If useing Redding bushing dies you also need to turn necks to realize your best concentricity because unlike the Lee Neck Die the bushing die sizes the neck from the outside rather than the inside.

Trystan

Many ways to skin the reloading cat, but FL sizing is the way to go for 90% of reloading in my book. Most serious benchrest guys are using custom FL bushing dies, or Redding FL bushing dies to size the brass everytime. With unprepped brass that hasn't had the necks turned enough to clean them up a Lee collet will help make your loads more concentric vs dragging a expander ball back thru it. That alone may be part of your accuracy gains, and it also could be that your getting less neck tension with the collet die. I prefer Forster FL dies myself.

This thread is an example of what is right with shooting forums in general and the 24 hour campfire in particular. Thanks to all for providing excellent perspectives and information to those of us who are still learning.

> i don`t want to upset anyone ,i have never seen Lee dies used at a bench rest match and the best shooters that win don`t neck size either anymore and neither do I. yes i do use some Lee dies for certain hunting rifles but never for competition, Lee reloading manufacture makes great reloading equipment for the average handloaders for their hunting rifles. another thing better brass shoots better groups too once you understand some basic methods to prepare that brass and the best brass made is Lapua brass no one makes brass this well or consistent either.

I agree that Lee equipment is generally not as good as most of the others, but they offer a few unique items (like the collet neck die) that are excellent in function. If Redding or Forster offered a similar product, I am confident it would be better made and of superior materials and I'd be all over it.

I don't compete, but if I did I'm pretty sure I'd be using high-dollar stuff...but I just hunt a little and love to play at the loading bench to see what I can do with my hunting rifles.

I guess it just all depends on approach, purposes, and objectives.

I'm not a gunwriter, but have been reloading for 50 yrs. IMO and IME, it's not about neck sizing vs. FL sizing, it's about run out, concentricity. I use a Sinclair run out gauge to measure and a TruTool http://www.trutool-equipment.com to tweak all my rounds. Seating dies aren't all the same, no matter how well the case is sized. You don't know until you check concentricity. Seating dies, bullet ogive, seater fit, etc. another discussion.

Loading the straightest ammo you can is the way to go. Often a FL die oversizes the neck and as the expander is pulled thru the neck, the case can end up silghtly crooked, the thinner side of the case with more stretch than the thicker side. It take a really good case to have the same exact thickness all the way around.

The Lee Neck collet neck sizer is a unique design, imparting no stretch on the case. The problem with neck sizing, the round can get harder to chamber as the case stretches. And they gonna stretch,. Throw away the Lee Collet die set up instructions, use Mathman's instructions and don't look back. I think that info is on the link above.

Redding makes a great body die, but not cheap. The cheapest and best way to go, IMO, is getting a Deluxe Lee die set with the collet neck sizer and FL sizer. Their FL die makes a great body die with some Dremel work. I've had to use worn grinding tips to fit inside a .22 cal die neck. That steel is really hard and takes some work to cut enough so that the case neck doesn't touch. The decapper makes a nice punch with retaining nut removed. I guess one could say the Lee Deluxe die set is a MacGyver starter kit...

I mounted my TruTool on a a small board. To me a perminant bench mount gets in the way. I can put this set up on a shelf when not being used.

DF

Forgot to add, I used a T Nut to attach the TruTool to the board. Ace Hdw, etc has them or you can order one on line. Just measure the TruTool hole size to get the right one.

DF


Edited to add, I'm not a benchrest shooter, just a hunter who likes to shoot accurate ammo in accurate rifles.

I'm sure those guys can justify the expensive equipment they use, I can't and don't.

The quality of ammo I can load with the Lee set up exceeds my shooting ability. I want to be the limiting factor, not the ammo.

There's something that's often neglected in these conversations when comparisons start to be made between Lee collet dies and the Redding and other bushing dies. How much are you moving the brass when it's being sized? Concentricity wise things often go bad fast with bushing dies when the brass needs sizing more than a few thousandths.

I have a bit of experience along these lines when it comes to loading for the 308 Winchester. Fired brass coming out of a typical factory chamber with have a neck OD on the order of .344" more or less. If the brass happens to be Winchester it will likely need to be sized to .330", or even .329", to hold a bullet with two thousandths interference fit. It's close to a "the sun will rise in the east" lock that a properly adjusted Lee collet die will produce straighter brass than a Redding bushing die. This is true whether you try to bushing size it in one step or several.

Now suppose I'm loading Lapua brass for a .340" neck chamber in a 308 Winchester match rifle. Here the brass will only need moving a few thousandths and it's a different ball game.

The OP is loading "mundane" brass for what I believe are factory sporter rifles. The fact that in the right circumstances for a BR match there may be an advantage to "fancy" bushing dies isn't that big of a deal here.

I full length size because I have multiples in many cartridges. I have five 7 mags. There is no way I’m keeping separate loads for each rifle. I have four 06’s, four 308’s, on and on, I’d go crazy.

Do you all that have multiples of the same caliber, load for each rifle?

Agree.

That's why I don't have multiples in one round. It's just like having that many separate chamberings. So, in my safe, they're all separate rounds. Expect for 7RM. I have the Brux MkV, 8 twist 7RM and the Champlin and Haskins 7RM built by Len Brownell. They're almost like two different rounds. The C&H loves 140's, the Brux does great with the heavies. And, I don't shoot the C&H that much.

DF

It really depends upon how hot your loads are. Mild loads may go 3-5 shots. Hot loads might not make it 2. My best advice is after firing, try to chamber the case again. If it's tight, then FL size it. Don't wait until you have loaded 50 rounds and go to the range to find out that they're too long.

That's what the body die if for. You never need to FL, IMO, just set the shoulder back enough for easy chambering. Size the case a little at a time until the bolt closes on the empty case without much resistance. For hunting rounds, I want real easy closure. For general shooting or shooting groups, mild resistance is OK, at least for me.

DF

Not picking on you specifically, but as I said in the thread to which I linked earlier in this one, they'll always come out of the chamber small enough to go right back in again. The only exception will be if the case (or chamber) is out of round, which is a whole 'nother problem. Absent that particular case, the only way they end up needing the shoulder "bumped back" is if you've done something in the reloading process to drag it forward. Pulling an expander through the neck, for example, or squeezing the case body with a FL die while the shoulder is unsupported.

Personally I don't ever find it necessary to bump shoulders back. With regular anneals to case necks I have cases which have been reloaded literally dozens of times without ever having shoulders bumped back.

I do agree though, that it is a good idea to check the finished rounds for easy chambering before a comp or a hunt.

Amen.....couldn't agree more.

That's why I didn't hesitate to convert the Lee FL die to a body die. I don't need their FL die, which IMO, isn't the best FL die anyway. It does make a very nice body die, however, and on the cheap using the Dremel. With this set up there is never a need to FL size a case, only set it back when bolt closure gets a bit tight.

I don't anneal as much as I probably should. If I did, as mentioned by someone earlier, I may not need to set back shoulders that often. I can go several loadings without worrying about it, unless I'm pushing a load. Then, I'll set back shoulders more often.

DF

I'm going to have to check that on some fired and sized cases then. I neck turn my cases and polish the expander ball as to do a minimal amount of stress to them, but if it's moving the shoulder back forward I may have to change my process. It currently doesn't take much pressure to pull the expander back through, but without checking it I can't be sure that it isn't doing what you're saying it is.

It’s easier than you think. I load for 2 7mm Rem Mags, 4 7mm-08, 5 .223, and a bunch of .30-06. Every rifle has its own box or 2.




P

I have six 270W's. I treat each one as a individual, and have separate sizing dies for each one. Over the years it seems I've accumulated enough dies to find at least one that will size concentrically. Two of the 270's are custom bbls, one has a bbl that has been set back a thread and rechambered with a shortish throat. Although those three I can PFLR with expanders that I have polished down for the amount of tension I want and minimal working of the brass, plus get runout under .003. Although on one I've gone to the LCD because it also produces low runout and is quicker to size brass with. The whole idea of handloading is to custom tune the ammo to the rifle. Each rifle is an individual.

For three 243's the brass I'm currently using a Redding Nk die produces the least runout--even better than the LCD. But I did have one lot of brass that the LCD did better.

Regardless of rifle, chambering, or brass, when rounds become hard to chamber it's also time to anneal and bump the shoulder back. Currently I get lowest concentricty with either Redding FL, or Nk dies in conjunction with Redding body dies, or LCD, and Forster seaters. Although I use a Redding seater for my 243AI.

As an added note to this thread, All five of my LCD's would not produce enough neck tension to securely hold a bullet with the standard mandrel. I've had to go to the undersize mandrel and with three of them sand down a mandrel to get the tension I wanted. So my experience has been LCD's are not ready to go out of the box.

I have more rifles in .223 / 5.56 than anything else.

The night before last, I was doing a little load development work for the ones I equip for night hunting. Since I have several rifles chambered in .223, I have numerous sizing dies...one is FL, some are body dies, one is conventional FL, and I have my Lee Collet neck die...all wrapped up in a Forster die box. They are very roomy. So I reach up on the shelf to put away a 5.56 die I had been using and the box slips out of my hand. The box lands on the bench and stuff bounces everywhere.

"Dammit. $#^#&$#*!&$!!!"

I put everything away...or at least I THINK I put everything away.

I come home after work the next afternoon and decide I need to refill my humongous mug with water. I pour it into the kitchen sink to clean it out, and I hear tink tink clank tink. I see a dummy .223 case in the sink and I retrieve it. This is one I use for checking distance to the lands for seating purposes. But I am certain one of the "tink" noises is something else, and now whatever it is can be found in the trap of my kitchen sink.

No problem, thinks I. I'll just use a cheap USB cam I'd bought several years ago to see if there's actually something in my kitchen sink drain. Unfortunately, I couldn't get the head of that little bastard through the drain guard or whatever the hell you wanna call it. My solution is to use my Teslong borecam to see what lurks in the trap of my kitchen sink drain. Nice to have tools.

So then I discover that I do not have an adapter to connect the Teslong to my phone...no! It CANNOT be that easy.

Being unstoppable, I grab my laptop to connect to the Teslong because I'll be damned if I'm going to let whatever it was that went down the drain end up in the septic system because I know there's not a chance in hell it won't end up in the sprinkler pump and destroy it.

Old laptop had not been turned on in a year and a half, I guess...maybe longer. Don't recall. All I know is the SOB won't boot. After screwing around with various charging Power Supplies (I have three for that computer), I discover I am pushing the wrong button to try and make it boot up. On ly fifteen minutes wasted there, so no big deal.

The bastard finally boots up. I connect my borecam to it, and nothing happens. WTF now?? I start screwing around with the camera app, and I can't get that to work either. After another ten minutes I realize that the laptop's camera lens is covered with a cool little device that keeps your laptop from spying on you.

The borecam still won't work.

So now I am off the Teslong's website, looking for a driver or whatever I might need to look down that stinkinass drain. But I've got no WIFI connection. I fork around with that for a while until my wife hears me ripping cabinets off the wall and throwing them out the kitchen window (figuratively). She walks in and asks me if I'd remembered the little external swith in the laptop that turns the WIFI on and off. Well, heel no, of course I didn't tremember that.

Now I'm on my way because I can download the executable I need to make the Teslong work. Halle-freekin-lujah, I finally got it and I fire up the Teslong and poke it down the drain. Can't see schidt, the trap is full of water.

So now I'm on my back removing the trap under my kitchen sink, aand without breaking all the plumbing underneath te kitchen sink I manage to get the trap off. I empty it onto a paper towel, What did I recover? A freekin spare RCBS expander button. That's it. All that hassle over a two dollar part. Had I been aware I would have chanced the septic sprinkler pump.

Since I cannot possibly remember all the odds and ends in my die boxes, I guess maybe it's time to pare down my .223 rifles. But, nah. THAT ain't gonna happen.

Okay...so maybe I should just simplify and FL size everything...crazy talk, right there.

Maybe just being conscientious and avoiding clutz-hood would go a long way.

Merry Christmas!