Anybody with old cartridge books ever run across mention of the person who designed the 300 Savage cartridge? And when? Probably 1920, maybe 1919 or 1921 - it was introduced in 1921 if that helps.

We know Charles Newton designed Savage's 22 High Power around 1911, and the 250-3000 a couple years later in 1914. Just not sure who did the 300 Savage. Newton again, or an in-house engineer or ???. Lots of "rumors" including Arthur Savage desgned it himself, but since he'd left the company 15 years earlier that seems unlikely.

Thanks.

Designed in-house at Savage, using the .250-3000 case as a model, to improve on the performance of the .303 cartridge. The short neck and minimal taper (compared to the Newton design) allowed the .300 to approximate the .30-06 loadings of the period.

Thanks. That matches with what I've heard. But in case anybody has ever run into a name or a specific date, I'd love to hear.

There was an bright engineer at Savage by the name of Charlie Nelson that did some pistol improvements for them, and helped design the model 1920 the year before the 300 Savage came out. I don't know that he was involved ,but I wouldn't be surprised. Adding the 300 Savage cartridge to the 1920 made it competitive with other new bolt actions coming out in 30-06.

It will kill hogs really well with a 130 Barnes.

From : http://gundata.org/cartridge/55/.300-savage/

I do remember reading although I can’t remember where, that the 300 Savage was tested extensively as a light machine gun round in the late 40’s.
As I remember, it seems that there were feeding issues with the 300 Savage having something to do with the neck.
A result of this testing resulted in the birth of the 308 Winchester.
Now, I probably don’t have all of the details correct concerning the issue because it’s been awhile since I read that but someone on here would know and could refresh my memory.

I agree with Rory, it seems unlikely that Arthur Savage would have designed a new cartridge for Savage so long after he had left the company. If a respected pre-WW2 gun writer like Ned Crossman, Paul Curtis, Phil Sharpe or Townsend Whelen had written a piece on the history of the 300 Savage cartridge and name Arthur Savage as the designer, I would be much more likely to believe it. Even though Charles Newton had designed the 22HP and 250-3000 for Savage, it seems likely that he was fully engaged in his own company and his own line of rifles and cartridges to have time to consult with Savage during the period of time when the 300 Savage was designed.

> what a older engineer at Federal Cartridge explained to me in detail was the 300 Savage was an excellent candidate to use in a machine gun and the U.S. military almost used the 300 Savage instead of the 308 Winchester, but Washington dirty politics and money under the table made the decision for our military to use the 308 Winchester instead. and now today its name seems to have change too ? a Grin and a head shake

It's certainly a fine cartridge. I've read of a study done in the 30s by Washington state, where they surveyed elk hunters on many things, including cartridge of choice. Many answered ".300", referring to the Savage. Elk must be bigger and tougher now, as are whitetails and other game animals.

There is an obscure reference to Charles Newton having designed the .300 Savage. I have seen it in a circular enticing investors in the Leverbolt Rifle Co of about 1927. Anyway, I saw this in black and white and there is no mistaking it. iIused to collect Newton rifles and had most of the catalogs and nearly all of the paper stuff his companies put out from 1914- to the end in the late 1920s. The first time I ran into this little nugget of cartridge history, I had to wonder if I was the only guy to have ever noticed this.

I have read and heard from actual users that the U.S. military had more than a few Browning .30 caliber machineguns jam when they got hot and the rim would tear off a sticking 30-06 case. The 7.62x51 case was designed with a much heavier/thicker rim and base than the 30-06, probably done so in order to reduce the frequency of jams due to torn rims.

Could have sply thickened the 06 case of that was the only problem, but by shortening the 06 case left less case to extract

Here's how the text of the Leverbolt's "Special Notice" starts: "Mr. Newton has long been known to riflemen, first as the designer of high power cartridges such as the Savage line of .22 high Power, 250,3000, and .300 Savage, later the .256 Newton, .30 Newton, and .35 Newton..."

The 7.62x51 was developed at the Frankford Arsenal, starting with .300 (case # T-65) in 1945. Frankford kept working the cartridge until 1949, changing the length, rim thickness, extractor grooves etc. until the 7.62x51mm cartridge was developed. With Frankford changing different dimensions of the .300 for so many years to create the 7.62x51mm, it makes it less of a chance of dirty politics and rather trying to make a better cartridge.

7.62x51mm development

Could Newton have designed the cartridge during the heyday of the .22HP and .250-3000 and presented it to Savage who in turn slept on it for a few years?

Didn't Savage stop producing civilian firearms during WW1 and switch to building military firearms? IIRC, they made Lewis machineguns sometime between 1916 and 1919. Newton could have designed the 300 Savage and Savage could have waited until after peace had been reestablished before choosing to introduce it.

Ooh, that's a great link, Jim. Can't guarantee it's correct, but it's a great start give that it's a period reference.

There was a massive depression in 1920, and Savage Arms pretty much closed down all production of all products by the end of the year was selling everything at cost just to raise cash. They didn't restart production until mid-1921 from what we can tell.

I wouldn't be surprised if Savage hired Newton during this downturn to develop the 300 Savage, or more likely that Newton went to Savage with the idea as he and his company probably needed cash as well. As far as we've found, the first Savage rifles made in 300 Savage date to the fall of 1921.

Yes, production drastically reduced in 1916/197 and totally stopped in 1918. It's possible they sat on it.. but they made 41,000 Savage 99's in 1919/1920 - almost double their earlier production rate. I think they would have introduced it in 1919 if they had it then to beef up their sales. Just my guess, obviously.

Maybe somebody who knows Charles Newton and his company's history would know anything important for 1918-1921? When did he start it up, when did it close, did he do custom work during this time??

Well dang... just saw that the Leverbolt Rifle Co was Charles Newton's own company, his last try at firearms.

If his own company's flyer says he produced the 300 Savage cartridge, that's pretty convincing evidence. Awesome!

Who ever designed that cartridge has my respect and I think in some ways it was ahead of the times. How good was the Mod. 99 in .300 Savage? I still have the one my Dad brought when we moved to Alaska in 1965. Still have the old Weaver with the Post reticle. Dad and his life time friend Ken who moved to Cantwell in the 50's used that set up for years and even though Dad moved to his beloved old Mod. 70 .264 Winny he always had a soft spot for the .300 Savage he used on mule deer and antelope on his "out West" hunts.

Any way, his friend Ken used his old peep sighted .300 to drop 5 caribou in very short order when he caught them on a little frozen pond during a winter hunt. The limit back in "the day" was either 4 or 5 on the Nelchina herd. They gutted them hopped on the snow go's and towed them to the pickups and loaded up. Hung them from the engine hoist beam in my Dad's big shop up in the Slana River Valley about 40 miles from Tok and skinned them when they thawed. Ken used that old peep sighted .300 on many a caribou and moose, with no complaints. Dang, I miss those days and wish I could turn back the clock.

The old rifle is a safe queen now and my wife said to hang it up some where in the living room. I love that gal.

I have heard the 300 Savage referred to as the original short magnum. I have one and it's a great cartridge that I wouldn't be afraid to use on any animal with the possible exception of the big bears.

Yes, this sounds very familiar to what I read. Thanks for the info!

Not trying to high jack this thread, but why was the 300 Savage such a popular conversion in Arisaka Type 99 rifles after WWII?

I remember the Nelchina herd limit being 6 in the '60s. I know I got to shoot 6 caribou several times on single trips.

Just for completeness, here is the notice from Leverbolt. I really can't see Charles Newton trying to take credit for something, especially within 5 years when it'd be easy to disprove it if it was false.

This is a screenshot of page 595 of Marlin Firearms: A History of the Guns and the Company That Made Them
By William S. Brophy USAR

Take her out for a stroll and a hunt. My dad's (and grandfather's) 99 in .250 has taken five deer since he died in '92..Never sees bad weather, but still gets to go out and play. Make some more memories with yours. It's a wonderful thing.

Doug Murray says 1920 in Savage 99 models. That's good enough for me.

Doug Murray did a great job, but he gathered his information over 30 years ago by hand before the internet existed. Tremendous work for the resources he could access.

It’s a great guide, but there are a lot of errors. That’s one of them.

Ken Waters says its off the 250 3000 by C.N, He did this 1920

I'd say Ken Waters is probably on the mark.

Next question:

How long does it take to get a new cartridge developed and chambered - if you were Charles Newton? The cartridge wasn't introduced until fall of 1921, so trying to understand if this is a 2 year development process, 1 year process, 6 month process?

Probably because 6.5 mm Jap brass wasn't available and lots of Arisakas were on the market. Just run a 300 Savage chamber reamer and you have a 6.5-300 Savage. The rounds fit the magazine also. I had one done like that reamed for 308. Pretty good round. Remington got around to supporting it as the 260 Rem.

Except the Type 99 was chambered in 7.7x58.