Building a 35 Whelen for cold wet weather. I have several Ruger Hawkeyes/Mk2s that I have used in very cold wet weather in Alaska and other places where I had troubles with other guns freezing up on extended trips. This rifle needs to have the old school simple non-boxed trigger. Had good luck with the Rugers in this regard.

It's been ten years since I've owned a pre-64. I just can't remember if the one I owned was really that much nicer than a worked over Hawkeye? So, looking for thoughts. Is a pre-64 action going to be that much sweeter? This thing will end up in a McMillan stock regardless. I have the barrel ordered and its time to start looking for a donor action.

I've had 2 Rugers in my lifetime. A 77 that I bought in 1975, which my son still has, and a new Hawkeye that I bought a few years ago. I've also owned 6 different pre-64 Model 70's. In my opinion the Model 70 is the smoothest action that I have ever owned. I also have and have had a bunch of Remington 721, 725, and 700,including a new 700 single shot. They're all good rifles, but the old Model 70's is by far my favorite. If it were me, there wouldn't be any doubt about which action.
Just my opinion.

Pre 64 for me too, no question about it.

Given the parameters/choices I would opt for the Winchester also.

I have yet to find a Ruger as smooth as a Mod 70 especially a pre 64.

Only advantages I see for the Ruger is the somewhat better gas handling and the availability of SS. Everything else favors the Winchester.

I say M70, SS barrel, and everything nitrided.

We want pictures when it's finished.

Built my .35 Whelen on a pre'64 M/70 more than 30 yrs. ago and have had no regrets. I've owned Ruger M/77's, they're not even in the same league as the Winchester.

Pre-64's have has at least 56 years of cycling to become smooth and to weed out bad examples.

I think it's asthetics. I love model 70s and in that respect the Ruger can't compete. But as far as practicaliy goes I think the Ruger wins. I built a 9.3x62 out of a 1988 Model 77 with tange safety. I know it's not a true 100% CRF action, but it's strong and is smooth as silk. I love that rifle. If I did have a pre 64 Winchester I'll be damned if i would change it's chambering. I'd keep it pristine original.

Alright...looks like I'm going old school. Y'all sure do like to spend my money!

I found a Mk II 30-06 stainless and sent it to JES who made it a 9.3x62. It could of just as easily turned into a 35 Whelen.

A .35 Whelen would have been the better choice, but to each his own. My pre'64 .35 Whelen has been my whitetail rifle for the last 30 + years, it shoots anything it's fed accurately.

pre-64.....don't look back

I second that, resale value will be more.

There is no choice between those two. Pre 64 all the way.

I'd be looking for a 1992-2006 SS Classic model 70 to work with.

Mine in 30-06. I wouldn't change a thing on mine, even the cartridge.


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/14513521#Post14513521

Well then, I am here to SAVE you some. Now that you've made that wise decision on the pre-64, I was just going through my box-o-barrels the other day looking for a Mauser donor for a rebore by JES (35 Whelen Specialists). I found a forgotten pre-64 (maybe pre-war) M-70 barrel in 30 Gov't 06, which you can have for pretty cheap if you want. Send it and your action to JES and for $250 he'll make you a great cut rifled Whelen. I'm getting ready to have a couple Springfield 03s become a 9.3x62 and a 338-06 respectively, so I have been calling him and researching his work. None of my Mausers had thick enough barrels to suit me for the 9.3 rebore, though I was hoping to use a Mauser for that since it'd be more "correct." But it won't feed like the Springfield, whose breeching the M-70 was basically directly copies from.

Just a thought. PM me if interested and we can dicker. I don't really know what it's worth but I don't have a use for it right now and no need to turn a profit on it.

Cheers,
Rex

Good man.

With piss poor gas venting of the pre 64, I am not sure why the OP even has to ask the question. Yeah my 35 Whelen is a M77RS . MB

I would choose the 77RS over the pre-'64 for the same reason--but would choose a good 98 Mauser action over either, for at least one additional reason. But that's me.

Go with either. Having spent my entire adult life either hunting in Alaska by dog team or snow machine, or field training exercises in the dead of winter at fort greely, and training at the black rapids northern warfare training center: better time could be spent discussing the methods of handling firearms in the cold:

I test lubricants in 30-50 below. When most are hiding near their TV, or reading worthless gun magazines beside toyo stoves, I'm seeing what works in this miserable weather.

Clean all residual oil out of every part. Don't bring firearms inside, where condesation will gather in the warmth. Use faster burning powders and forgo some velocity for lower pressures. Steel is brittle in the extreme cold. Lower pressures are good.
I don't care for graphite lube. It is bad for your lungs and is marginal.

The best I've used so far: Amsoil 0 weight oil. It will pour out of a jug at 50 below. Learn from my pain: coat your gun parts with that...
.

No question that I would go with the Ruger, in stainless. Better corrosion resistance, better gas venting, a company that is actually in business and doing things right, right here in America.

I would go with a Classic post 64 action myself. For your uses a stainless one would be a plus. As far as functioning in extreme conditions I would say Mauser first and then it would be a toss up between Pre/Post 70 and Ruger 77. I might give a slight edge to the 70s due to the safety. The Nitride finish would just about eliminate the advantage of stainless, in fact better in my opinion. All of them will be comparable if finished out well after cycling the action for about a 1,000 times they will be similar in smoothness. Part of the reputation of the pre-64 smoothness is because most that you see have been cycled several thousand times as opposed to the newer M70s.

I too, and am currently doing that.

Didn't someone write once (possibly Mule Deer) that a lot of Alaskan Guides use .338 Rugers……..

Good to know I'm on the right track JB but if I went with a Mauser it would be an FN with the safety on the cocking piece like my 338-06 is. Least ways I wouldn't have to lengthen the mag and grind out part of the ramp. MB

What is the "one additional reason" for the Mauser?

For what reasons would you consider the Mod70 safety more reliable in extreme weather? That would not correlate with my personal experience.

Maybe the undercut on the bolt for the extractor that makes it grip tighter?

I stayed away from Mausers since the OP didn't list them and I didn't want to be scolded.

+1

Pappy,

"Maybe the undercut on the bolt for the extractor that makes it grip tighter?"

Exactly. But I resisted mentioning a 98 action on this thread for quite a while, partly because I prefer sticking to the original question. But eventually I just couldn't resist...

As much as I like the M 70, I will say a well used Ruger makes a slicker and quicker operating rifle , at least partially due to the spring loaded bolt stop which gives the forward movement an initial assist.

both are good actions ,which barreled action/ cartridge do you dislike the most ? that`s the one i would rebarrel.

As much as folks like to claim the coned breech of the M70 is a design fault, for flawless feeding its pretty slick. And more than a few VERY experienced hunters/guides worldwide found and still do, that the old 70 has a track record in the field that can't be denied.

Well, yeah...

Duh..

After all, this is the Fire, known enablers, par excellence...

Pre-64, hands down.

DF

TX35W: I have made and own MANY custom Rifles - several are built on pre-64 Winchester Model 70 actions.
Never even thought of using the Ruger MK-2 for a custom Rifle build.
Go with the pre-64 Winchester Model 70 - it will be worth more once completed and the safety, strength, handsomeness and cartridge capacity issues all also lead to the Winchester!
ALL... of my custom Rifles built on pre-64 Winchester Model 70 actions are VERY accurate, reliable, great looking and desirable!
Best of luck to you with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I would think a guy could source one of the stainless Rugers made in 35 Whelen, and there wouldn't be any need to "build" anything to have the best gun available. Life is easy, don't make it hard.

Could a Ruger be so modified by a machinist to have the undercut? Could use a Mauser extractor then?

Mule Deer: Other than the gas venting, what is the additional reason? I've only handled mid-grade commercial mausers and they were a lot rougher than a ruger.

TX35W,

As was hinted at above, there's an angled undercut on the front end of the 98 bolt that fits into a similar angle on the extractor, behind the "hook". This prevents the extractor from slipping off the rim of a case; In fact, the harder you have to pull on the bolt to extract the case, the tighter a 98 extractor grips the rim.

The extractor can slip off the case rim in controlled-feed actions without this angle--which include the Rugers and pre-'64 Model 70, along with a few others such as the Montana 1999 and SOME (not all) CZ's. I have seen this happen a few times over the years. While it's usually easy to get the case out by turning the bolt back into the action, then pressing hard with your fingers on the front of the extractor while lifting the bolt handle, this is exactly a quick process--and one of the points of CRF actions is very sure and quick repeat shots.

This normally isn't a major deal, but it's why some people consider the 98 Mauser action the best of the CRF bolts--along with, of course, the very effective gas-deflection.

Nice save with the ? mark at the end of the sentence, otherwise I'd have to chortle...

that's not the campfire way!

Oops--I forgot. I'll head out to the woodshed now!

Actually, I'd just skip the Whelen altogether, and get a stainless Ruger 338, chop the barrel back a bit, add NECG sights if desired, and get after it. Don't even need an aftermarket stock to have a good one that way, with ammo available everywhere. If I can't get 'em in 4 shots, I figure the 5th ain't gonna do me much good anyway.

Or buy a Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger and load it down a bit if desired, but that would be so simple it almost seems like you aren't trying.

Perzactly what I'd do given the options presented. The reason to buy a Pre-64 70 is for nostalgia/historic significance/collector value, and in that sense, I'd want to keep her intact. Seems a pretty expensive route to go just for the action. Otherwise, I personally think the 70 Classic is a superior action, mainly due to its availability in SS. I prefer the safety and trigger on the M70 vs the Ruger MK2, though there's nothing really wrong with the M77.

I've mentally kicked myself for years for not turning my dad's reworked early 98 8x57 Mauser into a custom 35 Whelen instead of letting that one slip away. Heavy with that original, but cut back stepped barrel and Bishop stock, but oh that smooth bolt action. After my '65 M70 debacle, I wasn't going to use another M70 for a build although the later stainless crf actions might have worked, I did use a stainless Ruger Mk ll for a 7mm-08 action, but as mentioned it was not nearly as smooth as I would have liked and I ended up Teflon coating the bolt which helped even though Teflon isn't the most durable coating. It made into my favorite deer rifle, but in retrospect a stainless M70 would have better resale value, but I'm not selling so it didn't matter.

Mule deer, I had that happen on my 375 ruger Alaskan: Factory hornady cartridge/stuck case. The mauser claw slipped right off when the bolt was opened.

mainer,

It doesn't happen often, but it's no fun when in does!

Could a Ruger be modified to have the extractor undercut and then install a Mauser-like extractor? What it would take to do it?

While we're picking on the "almost Mausers", the Classics have a bolt handle that can come off in hard use, maybe not as frequently as another action that shall remain nameless (Remington), but it happens. The preventative is to cut or drill a small recess along one edge of the joint and spot weld it a bit, then dress it flush.

I read about this in a piece or two from Brian Pearce. Apparently it happened to him. Looking at Mr. Pearce, I suspect he just might be able to take the handle off a "real" Mauser as well.

The extractors on some aren't very strong, but supposedly, they've corrected that. A well-to-do character I'm sometimes see the at the range was shooting his Winchester Custom Shop .458, practicing for Africa, and he told me he'd had the one on his rifle replaced. BTW, he's a pretty big guy, and was really laying them in there offhand at 100yards with his minor cannon.

Here's a detail of how the Mauser 98 extractor works, especially the undercut. This is from THE BOLT ACTION, A Design Analysis, by Stuart Otteson, one of the essential books for understanding the details and functions of various designs. Mine is a printed first edition, but it's available in an e-book,

Thanks Mule Deer I am looking on Abebooks for that book.

To answer a general question of why am I building a rifle when I can buy the same one off the rack... the main reason is A) I feel like it and B) I like a longer barrel and even in heavy brush never really noticed a difference in carrying a longer rifle. I like the way a light contour 26" barrel hangs on target off hand, I like the reduced muzzle blast, and I like the usually small increase in velocity, even in medium bore. Bc my ears are so f--ed I have suppressors on most of my hunting guns and even with a short 5" can your effective barrel length ends up being around 27" or so, given a 22" long action rifle or a 23" short action rifle. Which then got me building my non suppressed rifles a bit longer. Surprise, they mostly do run faster and hang on target better and are easier on your ears. I already have a 20" Whelen with a suppressor. This is just to match that. Don't tell my ex-wife.

I don't want to get off my MkII vs pre-64 kick (I want a simple non-boxed trigger) but how does one even get a smooth Mauser action? All the ones I've owned have been pretty okay, not terrible but not great.

Fantastic thread, guys!

Do the modern variants of the M98, like the Granite Mountain Actions, have this undercut?

Do you make a determination between actual pre-64 Winchesters and post-64 "Classic" CRF Winchesters or do they both lack this feature?

Jack Ryan,

Don't for sure about Granite Mountain, but do know some present-day versions lack it--as do all claw-extractor Model 70 Winchesters.

All military 98s have it, as do common commercial 98 actions such as the FN and Mark X--which are the actions of my .338 Winchester and .375 H&H Magnums.

The bolt in the photo is from the CZ 550 Magnum in .416 Rigby that I hunted with for a number of years--which had the classic Mauser undercut as well.

Wolfe Pubishing was offering The Bolt Action on CD for around $25 which is a lot cheaper than the books can be had. I sold my hardback Copy of Vol 1 and Vol 2 about 10 years ago for $400 for the set.

drover

Regarding the undercut on the Mauser bolt - I am not seeing it? Maybe the resolution of the photo provided by Mule Deer doesn't have enough resolution for me to see such details?

Below is a photo of 5 bolts. From L to R: Ruger M77 Hawkeye (LH), Montana Rifle Co 1999, Winchester M70 Classic, Kimber 8400, Zastava Mauser (Interarms Mark X). I thought the Zastava Mauser was a faithful copy of the Mauser 98, but I don't see any undercut?

Shinbone,

Here's a closer look, with the image contrast enhanced:



I suspect part of the problem may be Otteson's description of it as an "undercut," when it's actually a pretty small angle.

Once you see it, the angle is easily recognized. All the Zastava actions I've seen have it, whether they're called a Mark X or whatever.

Thanks for the improved photo. I think I see it now. That’s a pretty subtle detail.

Now that I know what to look for, I’ll double check the Mark X bolt with a loupe.

Edited - Yup, I see it on the Mark X action, and not on the others. I definitely needed a loupe to see it, and had to specifically know what I was looking for, but it is there.

I finally get it. Look at the drawn detail “extractor tongue undercut” on the paper and then it makes sense! After seeing the detail then you can see it on the actual extractor. I was scratching my head pretty hard before I figured it out. Yup, I’m slow.