Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Rifle Build--Ruger Mk2 vs pre-64 Winchester

TX35W,

As was hinted at above, there's an angled undercut on the front end of the 98 bolt that fits into a similar angle on the extractor, behind the "hook". This prevents the extractor from slipping off the rim of a case; In fact, the harder you have to pull on the bolt to extract the case, the tighter a 98 extractor grips the rim.

The extractor can slip off the case rim in controlled-feed actions without this angle--which include the Rugers and pre-'64 Model 70, along with a few others such as the Montana 1999 and SOME (not all) CZ's. I have seen this happen a few times over the years. While it's usually easy to get the case out by turning the bolt back into the action, then pressing hard with your fingers on the front of the extractor while lifting the bolt handle, this is exactly a quick process--and one of the points of CRF actions is very sure and quick repeat shots.

This normally isn't a major deal, but it's why some people consider the 98 Mauser action the best of the CRF bolts--along with, of course, the very effective gas-deflection.

Nice save with the ? mark at the end of the sentence, otherwise I'd have to chortle...

that's not the campfire way!

Oops--I forgot. I'll head out to the woodshed now!

Actually, I'd just skip the Whelen altogether, and get a stainless Ruger 338, chop the barrel back a bit, add NECG sights if desired, and get after it. Don't even need an aftermarket stock to have a good one that way, with ammo available everywhere. If I can't get 'em in 4 shots, I figure the 5th ain't gonna do me much good anyway.

Or buy a Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger and load it down a bit if desired, but that would be so simple it almost seems like you aren't trying.

Perzactly what I'd do given the options presented. The reason to buy a Pre-64 70 is for nostalgia/historic significance/collector value, and in that sense, I'd want to keep her intact. Seems a pretty expensive route to go just for the action. Otherwise, I personally think the 70 Classic is a superior action, mainly due to its availability in SS. I prefer the safety and trigger on the M70 vs the Ruger MK2, though there's nothing really wrong with the M77.

I've mentally kicked myself for years for not turning my dad's reworked early 98 8x57 Mauser into a custom 35 Whelen instead of letting that one slip away. Heavy with that original, but cut back stepped barrel and Bishop stock, but oh that smooth bolt action. After my '65 M70 debacle, I wasn't going to use another M70 for a build although the later stainless crf actions might have worked, I did use a stainless Ruger Mk ll for a 7mm-08 action, but as mentioned it was not nearly as smooth as I would have liked and I ended up Teflon coating the bolt which helped even though Teflon isn't the most durable coating. It made into my favorite deer rifle, but in retrospect a stainless M70 would have better resale value, but I'm not selling so it didn't matter.

Mule deer, I had that happen on my 375 ruger Alaskan: Factory hornady cartridge/stuck case. The mauser claw slipped right off when the bolt was opened.

mainer,

It doesn't happen often, but it's no fun when in does!

Could a Ruger be modified to have the extractor undercut and then install a Mauser-like extractor? What it would take to do it?

While we're picking on the "almost Mausers", the Classics have a bolt handle that can come off in hard use, maybe not as frequently as another action that shall remain nameless (Remington), but it happens. The preventative is to cut or drill a small recess along one edge of the joint and spot weld it a bit, then dress it flush.

I read about this in a piece or two from Brian Pearce. Apparently it happened to him. Looking at Mr. Pearce, I suspect he just might be able to take the handle off a "real" Mauser as well.

The extractors on some aren't very strong, but supposedly, they've corrected that. A well-to-do character I'm sometimes see the at the range was shooting his Winchester Custom Shop .458, practicing for Africa, and he told me he'd had the one on his rifle replaced. BTW, he's a pretty big guy, and was really laying them in there offhand at 100yards with his minor cannon.

Here's a detail of how the Mauser 98 extractor works, especially the undercut. This is from THE BOLT ACTION, A Design Analysis, by Stuart Otteson, one of the essential books for understanding the details and functions of various designs. Mine is a printed first edition, but it's available in an e-book,

Thanks Mule Deer I am looking on Abebooks for that book.

To answer a general question of why am I building a rifle when I can buy the same one off the rack... the main reason is A) I feel like it and B) I like a longer barrel and even in heavy brush never really noticed a difference in carrying a longer rifle. I like the way a light contour 26" barrel hangs on target off hand, I like the reduced muzzle blast, and I like the usually small increase in velocity, even in medium bore. Bc my ears are so f--ed I have suppressors on most of my hunting guns and even with a short 5" can your effective barrel length ends up being around 27" or so, given a 22" long action rifle or a 23" short action rifle. Which then got me building my non suppressed rifles a bit longer. Surprise, they mostly do run faster and hang on target better and are easier on your ears. I already have a 20" Whelen with a suppressor. This is just to match that. Don't tell my ex-wife.

I don't want to get off my MkII vs pre-64 kick (I want a simple non-boxed trigger) but how does one even get a smooth Mauser action? All the ones I've owned have been pretty okay, not terrible but not great.

Fantastic thread, guys!

Do the modern variants of the M98, like the Granite Mountain Actions, have this undercut?

Do you make a determination between actual pre-64 Winchesters and post-64 "Classic" CRF Winchesters or do they both lack this feature?

Jack Ryan,

Don't for sure about Granite Mountain, but do know some present-day versions lack it--as do all claw-extractor Model 70 Winchesters.

All military 98s have it, as do common commercial 98 actions such as the FN and Mark X--which are the actions of my .338 Winchester and .375 H&H Magnums.

The bolt in the photo is from the CZ 550 Magnum in .416 Rigby that I hunted with for a number of years--which had the classic Mauser undercut as well.

Wolfe Pubishing was offering The Bolt Action on CD for around $25 which is a lot cheaper than the books can be had. I sold my hardback Copy of Vol 1 and Vol 2 about 10 years ago for $400 for the set.

drover

Regarding the undercut on the Mauser bolt - I am not seeing it? Maybe the resolution of the photo provided by Mule Deer doesn't have enough resolution for me to see such details?

Below is a photo of 5 bolts. From L to R: Ruger M77 Hawkeye (LH), Montana Rifle Co 1999, Winchester M70 Classic, Kimber 8400, Zastava Mauser (Interarms Mark X). I thought the Zastava Mauser was a faithful copy of the Mauser 98, but I don't see any undercut?

Shinbone,

Here's a closer look, with the image contrast enhanced:



I suspect part of the problem may be Otteson's description of it as an "undercut," when it's actually a pretty small angle.

Once you see it, the angle is easily recognized. All the Zastava actions I've seen have it, whether they're called a Mark X or whatever.

Thanks for the improved photo. I think I see it now. That’s a pretty subtle detail.

Now that I know what to look for, I’ll double check the Mark X bolt with a loupe.

Edited - Yup, I see it on the Mark X action, and not on the others. I definitely needed a loupe to see it, and had to specifically know what I was looking for, but it is there.