I'm looking to have a M-70 built in one of these calibers. Purpose will be for Brown Bear in Alaska and Dangerous Game/Plains Game in Africa.

Rifle will be stocked in an Echols Legend, cerrakoted, NECG sights, a working rifle.

I'm torn between the two calibers, also briefly considered a .458 Lott after reading Weiland's book on Dangerous Game.

Opinions are appreciated, and for those who may be interested this will replace a Dakota Safari in .375 H&H that will be for sale shortly.

IM curious, why the idea of the 458 LOTT was abandoned?
personlly I have owned and used all three calibers and if you handload the 458 LOTTS certainly a good choice, for plains game I think the 375 gets the nod, but the 416 rem is a good compromise.
you might want too look at the 378 wby, has a flatter trajectory than any of the calibers you mentioned and with the better premium bullets its an excellent stopper, hard to beat a 300 grain bullet pushed to about 2900fps for stopping power

Wasn't real sure I needed the level of performance the Lott provides in Alaska. I'm still not sold on the .375H&H as a stopping rifle (yeah-I know, bullet placement - but schit happens). The .416 Remington does seem an ideal compromise, but there are those nasty pressure issues I'm wary of.

if it were me, .458 Lott would be my choice

That's Weiland's view as well.

I would stay withbthe classic .375 H&H. The shootability, more than adequate power level for the game you describe and the availability or ammunition worldwide, make it the practical choice.

One thing often left out of conversation when talking rifles for potentially dangerous game, is that you will have a guide to back you in such circumstances and I for one, would be extremely angry if a guide opened up after my shot for anything other than a charging animal.

As long as it is alive and I am paying the tab, it is my shot and the .375H&H has the track record and especially with modern bullets, is a wonderful option.



JW

I have owned all three, and also shot the over .40 Weatherbys. I am going to say that I agree with AGW here.

The 300 grain level is enough gun especially with currently available super-premium bullets, and the logistics of hunting with one world-wide are definitive.

I should note that I do intend to give the .400 H&H a whirl soon.

How come the Dakota is going down the road?

jim

I've decided to sell the Dakota to fund this project and a hunt. She's a lovely rifle stocked in an excellent piece of straight grained English. However, I've decided I want one synthetic stocked rifle as my "fighting rifle".

You might also think about a fast 375 i.e. , 375 Weatherby . I beleive Mr. Echols has built them before. I tnink the cartridge offers a bit of additional punch over the H&H while still being able to utilize H&H ammo in a pinch .

Saeed , over on Accurate Reloading , has racked up a tremendous score on buffalo using a wildcat 375 with ballistics similar to the Weatherby cartridge .

Another 100 or 150 fps out of an "improved" .375 is not going to make any practical difference in killing power or trajectory. It may kick just enough more to affect the shooter, however.

Why not go out and shoot rifles in all the prospective chamberings and see which one you can handle best? That is the really important thing. About anybody who can shoot the .300 Wnchester Magnum accurately can handle the .375 H&H with a little practice. Not as many can shoot the .416's well, and the .458 Lott is yet another step up.

The .375 Wby/Ruger or the .378 Wby are not options I'll consider for the reasons Mule Deer put forth, as well as a desire to keep things simple.

I've shot the .375 H&H, recoil is not an issue (aside from the headache afterwards!! Anyone else notice this?)

Like I said, I'm wondering which caliber is the best choice when everything "goes wrong", not which will do the job when all "goes right" (as we know any of them will).

I didn't get a headache from the .375 H&H in Africa, but my T-3 Lite in .300 Win Mag gives me a headache or stiff neck if I shoot it too much from the bench!

FWIW , I have found the difference to be more like 200 fps ( H&H to Weatherby ), with the same re-chambered M-70 barrel .

Weatherby factory ammo with the 300 gr Nosler kicks up an honest 2800 fps out of my rifle .

I have seen many opinions that the extra speed does not do anything for killing power ,yet I have also heard a couple of experienced hunters that have seen both cartridges used claim otherwise . If I recall right , even Boddington has had a few good words to say on behalf of the faster 375 s .


Strange as it may seem , I don't notice that the Weatherby loads belt you any harder than warmish H&H loads.....at any rate neither will kick as hard as a 416.....

The difference in case capacity between the .375 H&H and .375 Weatherby is about 12%, which means a potential increase in muzzle velocity at the same pressure, in the same length of barrel, of about 3%, or about 80 fps in an average load.

The .375 Weatherby does get more velocity, on average, because it is loaded hotter, both by the factory (Weatherby/Norma ammo is notorious for being right up there) and by handloaders. I believe the industry pressure standard is higher for the .375 Wby., though in the same rifle there would be no reason for it.

Perceived recoil, of course, if much affected by the rifle itself. But a 200 fps extra in a 9-pound rifle will result in an increase of at least 20% in recoil energy. If both rifles are sighted in at 200 yards with a typical 300-grain spitzer, the difference in point of impact at 300 yards will be about 1.5 inches. The difference in energy will be about 550 foot-pounds.

If a standard .375 H&H is already giving someone a recoil headache, then the .375 Weatherby will not help. In fact, probably the solution is a .375 H&H loaded down a little, to maybe 2600 fps with a good 270-grain bullet, which will kill very well but kick noticeably less.

Some people are more susceptible to recoil headache than others. Some research I have seen indicates that people prone to migraines are more likely to suffer from recoil. This may be true, as my wife has had bad problems with migraines in the past, and is also subject to headaches above a certain level of recoil.

My 375 H&H doesn't kick much at all, but my CZ Safari Classic is a heavy rifle, just over 11 lbs with the Mercury recoil reducer. I'm going up two notches this winter to 470 Capstick. To quote "Any Shot You Want": "A 500g .475 caliber bullet at 2400 fps is nothing to sneeze at!" I plan to hunt mule deer, elk and black bear with it while I'm saving up for my Africa hunt.

Regards,
Chuck

Would have to agree with that. 4 brothers, 2 of us inherited migraines from our mom and 2 of us didn't. All things being equal, a day at the range shooting the H&H, the 450/400, and whatnot and invariably 2 of us will be down the next morning with a killer headache while the other two are up and at 'em.

My only recourse is to stay the heck off the bench when shooting the [bleep] loudenboomers.....

NY: FWIW, I went through this same drill years back and came down on the side of the 375 H&H. Through chance and circumstance I now have three,and was shooting one yesterday.

I've played with blown-out 375's like the weatherby,actually an AI,and there is a noticeable increase in recoil IME over the H&H.The loads were a 275 gr bullet at over 2900 fps.The 416's I've fired are even more of the same and if a 375 is giving a headache, things will not get better with a bigger rifle.If you can HONESTLY handle the recoil,I guess bigger is better, but with the game you're hunting I do not think horsepower makes up for placement.By the way, I cannot tell the difference between a 375 H&H and a 375 Ruger at all...

Why not just get a synthetic stock for the Dakota 375 H&H,and put the nice wood in the closet for the bear hunt,then use the wood for Africa?

Not much difference between a 375 Bee and H&H 375, but a noticeable difference when you step up to the 378 Bee. Case capacity and velocities jump up, and so does recoil. I find the more modern brass for the 378 thicker and can be used more often.
But without doubt the 375 H&H is the grand daddy of them all. Most popular, more efficient when comparing powder to velocities generated. If I had to do it all over again, I should have kept my 375 HH and not traded it in on the 378. I was young and fearless but now I'm getting older and I like to think wiser.
Haven't had anything to do with 416, but then again never needed anything bigger then what I now use.

I've shot them all but none of them extensively so take it for what it's worth.


I find myself in agreement with John, it's hard for me to imagine anyone very serious about hunting big game being bothered much by the recoil from a .375 with a good stock and proper form.

the .416 is a bit of a step up, but a very doable proposition ime.

the .458 Lott a whole nuther kettle of fish, don't know whether that's just the line in the sand for me personally for recoil or poor stock design or what the deal is, but my bestest pard has one. He can keep it, I don't want it for my hunting apps.

course he shot a bear point blank in the chest with a .375 and they didn't recover the bear, so it may have had something to do with his decision.

still I'm glad he's got the Lott, love to watch him work up a load for it. glasses fly off his face, upsets his Workmate portable bench that he uses for a shooting bench, shells go flyin off it.

I like to watch a good azz kickin, even if it's my pard takin the thumpin. (grin) self induced at that

Too funny....grin.

Hilarious, I'm sure you have some helpful suggestions like: Have you tried powder XYZ? I'm sure you could a little more velocity out of that cartridge ...



Chuck

I had both a 375 H&H and two 416 Rigby's. I shot a Water Buffalo with my 416 Rigby. Still have not shot anything with my Sako 375 H&H.

I started looking at my guns closely and decided to sell my 416 Rigby. I still have my 375 H&H. It is just an all around good round. JMHO.

Bob;

Good advice on the synthetic stock, and I have considered it.
One concern I have is that the Dakota has a loading port which is not as long as the .375 cartridge. I have to slide the round in by pushing it forward at the same time. Might be difficult to reload under fire. My other concern with the .375 H&H is stopping a charge when all else fails.

BTW, nice to know others have the "recoil headache" as well. First I heard of it was when I mentioned it to a friend who gets them when sighting in his 12 guage for turkey season.

The headaches aren't a big deal, they go away fairly quickly.

For those who have had experiences in Africa, how much more stopping power does the .416 provide over the .375?

You didn't mention if you reload, unless I missed it.

If you do, the 416 will give you great flexibility along with a noticeable step up in terminal effects, though my choice would be the Rigby. Everything from a 300 TSX to the 450 Woodleigh.

If you're not a loader, stick with the H&H.

SOS

NY: Did not know that about the Dakota action.....curious Well, if you go 375 H&H, find a good pre 64.....................

I've never stopped a charge, so can't comment. How many do you have to stop before you reach "expert" status?

General wisdom(I hear) is that a 416 is more gun(on both ends). I have no reason to doubt that. Allen Day has used the 416 Rem in Africa...I'd talk to him.

Savuti: Yes I do reload.

Bob: Thought about a pre-64, but I've decided to build around a M-70 Classic action.

I've read Allen's posts, know he's a big fan of the .416.

I've also read articles by Boddington where he claims the .416 (in any flavor) smacks large beasties noticably harder than the 375.

I don't doubt that a 416 smacks them harder , but if a 375 is giving me headaches I'd think twice or three times before moving up to the 416 bore .

Another thought might be the 350 gr Woodlieghs in a 375 . Ray Akinson and others have claimed that they raise the 375 up a notch in stopping power , making the 375 perform more like a 416......

The headaches are no big deal...seriously.

I have read Ray's thoughts on the 350 grain bullets, does make a case for a .375.

Mule Deer

Is there any disadvantage to shooting .375 H&H ammo in a .375 Weatherby? Not "in a pinch" but as the ammo of choice for hunting?

Thank you

NY, I just made the step up to the 416 Rigby. It's definitely more recoil, even without full-house loads. I bought a Ruger RSM, which currently (but soon to be resolved) has the useless piece of black hard rubber on the butt. With 350's at around 2450 (96gr. H4350) it's got a fair bit more recoil than the 375H&H. That's 3 grains off max. My H&H is a M70 Classic which I'm picking from Roger Ferrell on Saturday, and leaving behind my 416. The Rigby is a step up in recoil for sure, but I don't think it's gonna be too much for me. The 416 Rem. is alleged to have a little less recoil, which makes sense as it uses quite a bit less powder. If you're loading full house for the Rigby, plan on at least 100 grs. per drop. For the Rem. Mag. I think it's more like 75 or 80 grs. max. I like my 416 and I know it'll be more pleasant with a decelerator, but realistically the 375 will do it all. The 416 is a better stopper, but I don't really know by what margin. I have shot quite a few 375/350gr. bullets and with max. loads, I see no recoil difference from the 300's. I push 350's (Woodleigh) at 2350+/- and the 300's (TSX) at around 2625.

David

Depending on where you hunt in Africa, some require the bigger bores. Check before going.

NY,

I've got both the 375 H&H and the .416 Rem Mag, both are M70 Classic Safari Express rifles. As for recoil, yes the .416 loaded to max with 400 grain bullets is going to give more felt recoil than max loads in the .375 using 300 grain bullets. You already knew that. The fact that you're capable of shooting the .375 without any real issues tells me that the .416 won't be a big problem for you in terms of recoil, so I'd not worry about recoil when comparing these two cartridges and get on to your real question.

I've hunted both Brown Bear in AK and DG in Africa, so I can relate to your goal of having a good rifle for either type of hunting that will get the job done decisively. I'm not professing to be an expert in hunting either Brown Bear or DG in Africa, so don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, the .375 is plenty for the big bears, but something like the .416 definitely wouldn't be a hindrance should a big brownie come boiling out of the alders. However, when it comes to DG in Africa, like buffalo and even elephants, I'd much rather have a .416 Rem or Rigby in my hands. As you say, most everyone with much experience with DG claim that the .416 hits harder than the .375, which is what you want. The other thing I've noticed is that when the PH asks you what you're shooting and you say the .416, 99% of the time they just say "Good" or "Perfect". When you answer with .375 H&H, often they immediately ask, "Which bullet?" or say something like, "We'll make sure we get you a broadside shot." IMO, that's not what I want to hear and would immediately make me start worrying. I've been there when this has happened and I've always been glad to be the guy with the .416. You also mentioned plains game, and as I'm sure you know, either the .375 or .416 is more than adequate for any plains game. Where you start debating cartridge choice is if and when you encounter a long shot, say greater than 200 yards. In this case, I think you must consider where you might be hunting. If you're hunting DG and plains game, you're most likely not going to be on the open plains where 300 yard shots and above would be more common. If you're solely hunting plains game, you probably would take a different rifle altogether, so I wouldn't sweat this detail. And if you are just hunting PG, then you can load either one with lighter bullets and have sufficiently flat trajectory. With heavy bullets, though, and out to 200 and even 300 yards, I think either the .375 or the .416 would perform just fine as long as you know your load and rifle, although I haven't personally had occasion to attempt such a shot with either of them when in the field.

Bottom line, I would and have chosen the .416 Rem. As I said, I have the .375 just because every rifleman has to have a H&H and if that is all I had, I'd use it and not worry too much. I've also got a M70 stainless in .375H&H that would be my go to rifle if and when I go back to AK for bears. But given the choice that you've presented here for a single rifle to do both, I'd go to the larger caliber and not look back. Plus, it's fun to have something over .40 cal.!
Hope this helps.
Test

Test,

Thanks for taking the time to post that. It is just the sort of critique I'm looking for. I assume you've had no pressure issues in Africa with the .416? Sticky bolt lift, that sort of thing. Do you handload the .416, or mainly use factory ammo?

Doug

Sorry, NY, I was going to address pressure in my previous post but forgot.

The pressure "issues" with the .416 are, I believe, remnants from when the cartridge was first introduced and the factory ammo that came out with it. In my personal experience with the .416 Rem. Mag, which is only about 4 years now, I have never encountered any real pressure issues, even when I knew darn well I was pushing the envelope when developing loads. For the record, my .416 has never fired a factory load simply because the price for a box of ammo is ridiculous, IMO. I have to laugh at that statement since when I decided to go with the .416 Rem, it was in part because the price of ammo for the Rigby was so ridiculous. I guess my reasoning is still somewhat sound since the price for the Rigby ammo is even more out of sight these days than the Remington!

Back to the pressure issue, loads that I put together for the .416 that were above max (slightly) never produced any sticky bolt lifts or blown primers or any such overpressure issues you might expect and this is using RL15 and IMR4064 and includes Barnes TSX, Swift A-frames, North Fork softs & solids, and even some Speer Mag Tips, either 350 or 400 grain. What I did find is that I usually saw better accuracy (smaller groups) with loads at or slightly below maximum book values, so that is what I went with for hunting. Even so, my buffalo softpoint load used a 400 grain Swift A-Frame and was chronographed at around 2450 or so, so plenty fast for this cartridge.

Because of all the pressure stories, before I left for Africa when I was at the range, I purposely laid out 6 loaded cartridges in the sun and left them there for over an hour. This was in the middle of the day during the summer on the eastern plains of Colorado, near 100�F. The rounds were hot enough (temperature) when I loaded them in the rifle that I could barely touch them. I then proceeded to fire three shots in rapid succession and saw no problems regarding extraction, bolt lift, etc. I did this again with the other 3 shells and got the same result.

While hunting in Africa at the end of August and into the 9th-10th of September it was starting to get quite hot, over 100�F during the heat of the day, and I had absolutely no problems with pressures, extraction, etc. Of course, I only fired the .416 during the heat of the day twice, and both were one shot at a time.

In the final analysis, I think you have nothing to worry about with the .416 Rem. when it comes to pressure. For some reason this issue continues to rear its head, but anyone who has used the .416 Rem. much in recent years and especially those who have loaded for it, will tell you the same thing. I think Allen Day, well respected in these circles and much more experienced in hunting Africa than I am, is on record about this as well since he uses the .416 Rem. Mag also.

I'm glad my previous post was helpful to you and am happy to try to answer any other questions you might have.

Best regards,
Test

I would not hesitate to choose the 416Rem!

Mine is built on the M70 and is fairly light and quick handling. I'm using Rem brass, RL15 and TSXs. I have no problem getting great velocity and accuracy w/ no pressure issues. The rifle is well balanced in a great handling synthetic stock which results in very manageable recoil for follow up shots. The 416Rem is a great cartridge from distance shots on medium sized game all the way up to effective stopping power on things that can hurt you.

It's not a pure stopping cartridge like a 458, but it is more flexible. I think it covers the same ground as the 375HH while adding more on the upper end.

GVA

I use both the .375 H&H and the .416 Rem, and if recoil isn't a problem, I think the .416 REM is the best all around caliber in the world...A 300 gr. bullet at 2700 or better FPS or a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS is a hard combl to argue with..and its better on the top end for dangerous game I suppose..

Ray, can you share some of your experiences with the .416 that makes it so great?

I've had all three cartridges in different rifles at different times and presently have a 375 H&H and a Lott on a customized MRC action. I built the Lott (built much as you describe as a "fighting rifle") expressly for a cape buffalo hunt and also for me, Wieland was intrumental in that choice. A handloader can string the Lott along from cast bullet squib loads to full steam stoppers. My first hundred rounds or so consisted of mid-range "45-70" loads getting used to the rifle which handles very well and, scoped, tops, out at 9.75 lbs. I presently shoot full power loads well-padded and standing at a raised bench or off-hand. While the rifle and I don't make love with each other, it is emminently doable.

That said, the 375 and the 416 Rem are very good cartridges too and frankly, I cannot see much benefit in the "improved" 375s for the same reasons JB mentioned - and I had a 375 Mashburn in a #1 I did a lot of work with in the past - and the 378 Wby scares me more than the Lott. I think too that you should, if you can, shoot the 416s and the Lott to get some perspective. The rifle you shoot, pick, or have made will have as much to do with your comfort as the cartridge in it.

Gdv

I have to disagree with you pretty vigorously on that. If I'm on the ground crawling and wantin' to puke from the headache, to me that's a big deal. Maybe you're not getting the same headache. Generally headache meds don't help me one bit, I have to go to the chiropractor to get the atlas joint re-aligned. Couple years ago I got one of those after a shot from an especially awkward position, wasn't even from a particularly heavy caliber ... I quit worrying about whether or not I was gonna die and switched to worry about why it was taking so d*mn long.

Tom

That's an allergic reaction to all the plastic.

Of the two the 416 Remington is the best choice but I think comparing the 416 Remington to the 375 H&H is like comparing a hybrid car to a Cadillac. Sure, it's good, gets the job done more efficiently and is probably the overall right thing to do but it lacks a lot of the panache of the 375. Now, given the choice between the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby, I'd take the Rigby every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I guess I'm a bit of a throwback stuck in a 30 year old's body. The classics work so damn well that I tend to look at the new chamberings as Johnny-Come-Latelys unworthy of consideration.

It's the unabashed defiance of reason that makes Rifle Loonyism so damned much fun!

You can shoot Woodleigh 350g soft points and solids out of your 375 H&H. Factory (Norma) ammo lists 2300fps. Should penetrate real well too and kick less.



Chuck

The last time I shot my 416 Rem. Mag. at the range, I came home with a recoil headache, but not when I've hunted with it! Yes, it does kick harder than the 375 H&H, but that difference is not monumental.

I've never shot a Cape buffalo with a 375 H&H, at least not yet, but I have shot a couple of them with the 416 Rem. Mag., and it hammers big old "dugga boys" very hard, and as far as I'm concerned it's a totally reliable cartridge for African DG, without getting into the truly heavy recoil of the big 458s, etc., plus it shoots flatter as well. I've also used the 416 Rem. Mag. in Alaska, and it's not at all out of place as a spring bear gun, in fact, I think it's perfect for that purpose, at least on the coastal flats.

All things considered, the 416 Rem. Mag. is my favorite big bore of all time, and anyone who can shoot a 375 H&H well and confidently can learn to shoot it with little trouble.........

AD

Allen, have you had any issues with pressure in the hot African sun?

I'm glad you brought that point up.

I have never had the slightest hint of a pressure problem with the 416 Rem. Mag., and I've hunted with it in the Selous late in the season at + 100 degree temperatures, using IMR 4064 as a propellant and 370 gr. North Fork bullets (developed and loaded for me by Superior Ammo, but I can and do duplicate that load myself) loaded to right at 2500 fps.

In my honest opinion, the 416 Rem. Mag. has gotten a bum rap in this regard. It's a SAAMI-spec cartridge and, properly loaded to full velocity (400 gr. bullet @ 2400 + fps.), it doesn't develop pressures that are any greater than lots of other cartridges that are commonly used in Africa, including the 375 H&H, 300 H&H, 338 Win. Mag., all of the Weatherby magnums, 458 Win. Mag., etc.

There have been certain lots of Remington factory 416 Rem. Mag. ammo that were indeed loaded way too hot. But by the same token, Remington loaded certain lots of 375 H&H ammo for a time that were way too hot as well. I had a lot of Remington 300 gr. Swift A-Frame 375 H&H ammo that gave sticking cases and ejector marks, which is almost unheard of in the 375 H&H.

Yet, I've never fired a factory 416 Rem. Mag. load that was in any way too hot (but I've heard of them), and not any carefully-prepared handloads, either. Federal, in particular, turns out truly excellent, accurate, full-velocity 416 Rem. Mag. ammo, and they test this stuff at temperatures as low as - 50 degrees F, and at + 150 degrees F.

If you prefer to handload, the 416 Rem. Mag is an extremely easy cartridge to work with, and it shoots well and to full, safe velocities with a number of powders, including Varget, Reloader 15, IMR 4064, etc. I use Lee crimping die, and have seperate seating dies set up for solids and softs............

AD

Thanks for that Allen, I'm leaning toward the .416 based on the replies I've heard here. Do you have any experience with the Lott?

I've not hunted with the 458 Lott at all.

I have used the 458 Win. Mag. on one safari for hippo, Cape buffalo, and one zebra. It worked very well, but it's a 100 yd. or so gun at best, and with 500 gr. bullets loaded to 2100 fps., it represents the upper threshold of my recoil tolerance. I like shooting the 416 Rem. Mag. much better, and it kills buffalo at least as well as the 458 Win. Mag. does, judging from the limited amount of hunting I've done with both cartridges.

Quite honestly, I loath shooting the bigger 458s, including the Lott, and any buffalo I'd hunt will be safer from me if I have a 458 Lott in my hands rather than a 416 or a 375.

Everyone, if he's honest enough to admit it, has his own personal recoil threshold, and the 458 Win. Mag. is tops for me.

Hunting Cape buffalo is, in one key area, very much like hunting anything else, and Jim Carmichel coined another classic saying when he stated that:

"It's not the thunder that kills - it's the LIGHTNING!"


AD

Thanks for the info Allen, I appreciate your input and everyone else who took the time to respond.

I would have the 375...but would also have it chambered for Wby
but would then shoot either in it which is an option not explored...but should the extra 500 ft pounds be needed I would ahve that option...if Echols is doing the work...might as well have the option...going to 416 is really not needed in my opinion. If I were thinking about more power I would be more inclined toward a double 470 NE....or somesuch....but I would still do the 375 Wby....

Split the difference-404 Jeffrey is really good-hits hard, recoil is only slightly more than a 375. Restocking the Dakota in synthetic is probably what I'd do.

One cool thing about the 375 H&H compared to other big bores, it's not that expensive to shoot. Means more range time, at least for me.

nyrifleman,
Sorry it took so long to get back with you..I can only share my experiences with the .416 to the point that I have shot many buffalo with both the .375 and the 416 and the .416 is the better of the two, and it is a great plainsgame rilfe, I have on many ocassions gone to RSA prior to Tanzania to hunt and only wanted to pack one rifle around in all the airports, The .375 and the 416 both got that job done, but after years of using both I would pick the .416 Rem or .404 Jeffereys over the .375, but thats a personal choice....

BTW the difference in recoil between the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby and 404 is zilch, they all kick the same...Some folks seem to think the 404 is a 2100 FPS rifle, but in a good strong bolt gun and todays IMR-4831 it will out do the .416 Rem. by 200 FPS or better. My good .404 Mauser has been digesting 95 grs. of IMR-4831 for years for 2663 FPS in its 27 inch barrel and 2602 in its 26" barrel. Its a bitch for recoil so I load it with 83 grs. for about 2400 FPS.

One can also load the .416 down to 2100 FPS if recoil is a problem or up to near 2500 FPS if recoil isn't a problem, but with any of these calibers the best velocity for DG hunting is the tried and true 2350 to 2400 FPS..

The .375 with a 350 gr. PP at 2400 in a .375 is a good enough killer and for those whose recoil tolerance is less than the .416.

Thanks Ray, due to all the input I've recieved here I've decided to build the .416

The 416 rigby is by far a better cartridge than the remmington if you go the 416 route.

I don't see why the .416 Rigby is better than the 416 Rem or 416 Ruger, its just a bigger case on a bigger bulkier, heavier action at the same balistics..I know it can be loaded hotter and near equal the .416 Wby, but so what, it does not kill any better..I opt for the trimmer, slimmer, meaner .416s....

Any action in .416 Rigby is wasted, it should be a 505 or 500 IMO...

I found this wise post while trying to make up my mind on a 375 Weatherby or a 416 Rem. Mag.

I might just do a 416 Rem. Mag myself.

I do not hunt Africa, but consider the 416 Rem a great round no doubt. I do not have a 375 Wby, but have considered rechambering an H&H to one, still on the fence about this.

I do have 375 H&Hs, 416 Remingtons, 375 Rugers, and 416 Rugers. For my purposes I favor the 375 Rugers with the 270 TSX & 416 Rugers with the 350 TSX. One factor is the way my rifles are set up. I have several SS Ruger rifles of various chamberings so familiarity is a definite factor.

I also have several SS M70 Classics, which at one time were the rifles of my choice. I do have a SS M70 re-barreled to 416 Rem that I am quiet fond of and all intentions of keeping my SS M70s in 375 H&H. And am in the process of modifying a couple of the H&Hs.

By far though I use the Ruger cartridges more. If, I did not handload, possibly not. Since within the past few years it has become a major PIA to get ammo for the Ruger cartridges manufactured by the smaller ammunition companies shipped to an Alaskan home address. And premuim bullet factory loads for the H&H and Rem are easy to find here retail, if you are willing to pay the price. The Lower 48 does not have the shipping issue though.

---------------------------------------------------------------
[/quote]

I found this wise post while trying to make up my mind on a 375 Weatherby or a 416 Rem. Mag.

I might just do a 416 Rem. Mag myself. [/quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------[quote=John_Gregori][quote=allenday]The last time I shot my 416 Rem. Mag. at the range, I came home with a recoil headache, but not when I've hunted with it! Yes, it does kick harder than the 375 H&H, but that difference is not monumental.

I've never shot a Cape buffalo with a 375 H&H, at least not yet, but I have shot a couple of them with the 416 Rem. Mag., and it hammers big old "dugga boys" very hard, and as far as I'm concerned it's a totally reliable cartridge for African DG, without getting into the truly heavy recoil of the big 458s, etc., plus it shoots flatter as well. I've also used the 416 Rem. Mag. in Alaska, and it's not at all out of place as a spring bear gun, in fact, I think it's perfect for that purpose, at least on the coastal flats.

All things considered, the 416 Rem. Mag. is my favorite big bore of all time, and anyone who can shoot a 375 H&H well and confidently can learn to shoot it with little trouble.........

AD

early on I always felt that a 416 was the best all around gun if you were to just choice one to do everything. That is the thing with personal experience eventually helping you decide needs. I still love the 416 and I have always wanted a 404 but the 375 is the one I have used the most and looking forward whatever remaining trips I will have left to make will probably best fit the job. For me now the joy of trying new cartridges is out weighed by the need to have some type of African experience going forward.
The funny thing is I am content with just going with a 375 VC. I have enjoyed the ride learning, now I just want to enjoy the ride I have left

I have a 375 AI and a 416 Rigby. The Ai is on a pre-64 action and the Rigby on a Ruger Magnum action.

I bought the AI because it was a beautiful rifle and if it hadn't been "improved" it would have cost more, probably more than I would have wanted to pay. So far I only shoot 375 H&H level loads in it. The pre-64 actions are OK but their stocks need to be strengthened.
You say you want a 70 Classic. I have one in 338. It's pretty, but there's problems I've been told, but not experienced with the bolt handle and associated part on the bolt breaking free. On a dangerous hunt, I might have this corrected by a weld on the bolt that will stop this from occurring.
I bought the Rigby, because I've wanted on ever since I saw one, probably in the American Rifleman many years ago.

I'm a Remington fan and the 416 Remington Magnum in my mind is as good as the Rigby. But I needed the Rigby because it is sooo cool...

As far as recoil goes I'm a firm believer in proper stock design. My Ruger 77 7mm Rem Mag hurts more than any other rifle I shoot, including 300's 338's the 375 or the 416. In fact it hurts more than any other rifle I've ever shot. It hurts my face and it hurts my shoulder. That stock is a red pad and I probably should sell the stock and restock the rifle. Or just sell the rifle.

8 year old thread..


But, when using a Win 70, I would do a 404 Jeffery on a RUM action.

On a Mauser action, I would do a 458 WM.

Yes, 8 year old thread and I still vote for pre 64 model 70 chambered in the grand ol 375 Holland and Holland. It will get the job done without any fuss at all. No worries there...

I agree with that. There's really no point in considering anything else.

If you shoot a buffalo in the chest with a .375 300 grain bullet it will run about 50 yards and die. If you shoot it anywhere else, you've got a problem no matter what you shoot it with. If it charges, you'd better break some bone. A .375 will do that. So will a .416.

As for elephant, a .375 300 grain solid at 2500 fps will penetrate both shoulders side to side of a big bull elephant. All anything else adds to that is recoil. Same for 350 grain bullets. For brain shots, it does not matter.

Often overlooked is that good shot placement is easier with lower recoil because you will flinch less.

I wonder if there is anyone who has shot a goodly sample of DG with both a .375 and a .416 and has noticed a difference. I have shot a buff, and elephant, and a hippo with a .458 and also one each with a .375. Small sample size but I could tell no difference.

The best difference factor is comparing solids. A 375 solid for buffalo did not have the same effect as a 416 solid in my view. The 458 solid makes a good argument for being better than the other two by a measurable margin.
But the softs are so good for each that is all you need. I end up using the solids for the little stuff.
For my all around use I have settled on the 375.

As Tony Sanchez Arino stated "When a buffalo decides to have a go at you, you can't have too much gun."

I'd go with the .416. I have one in .416 Rem Mag and using Barnes solids and Swift A-frames I have killed two buffalo and a 60lb a side elephant. The gun/cartridge performed flawlessly.

But if you have a problem with recoil, the .375 H&H might be better. Shooting the "hotter" .375 calibers is the wrong way to go IMO, if you are recoil sensitive.

BH63

Good info. Thanks!!!

I will be taking my 416 Rem M70 for buff and took and will take again my 375 H&H M70 for brown bear.