Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only .375 H&H or .416 Rem?

Hilarious, I'm sure you have some helpful suggestions like: Have you tried powder XYZ? I'm sure you could a little more velocity out of that cartridge ...



Chuck

I had both a 375 H&H and two 416 Rigby's. I shot a Water Buffalo with my 416 Rigby. Still have not shot anything with my Sako 375 H&H.

I started looking at my guns closely and decided to sell my 416 Rigby. I still have my 375 H&H. It is just an all around good round. JMHO.

Bob;

Good advice on the synthetic stock, and I have considered it.
One concern I have is that the Dakota has a loading port which is not as long as the .375 cartridge. I have to slide the round in by pushing it forward at the same time. Might be difficult to reload under fire. My other concern with the .375 H&H is stopping a charge when all else fails.

BTW, nice to know others have the "recoil headache" as well. First I heard of it was when I mentioned it to a friend who gets them when sighting in his 12 guage for turkey season.

The headaches aren't a big deal, they go away fairly quickly.

For those who have had experiences in Africa, how much more stopping power does the .416 provide over the .375?

You didn't mention if you reload, unless I missed it.

If you do, the 416 will give you great flexibility along with a noticeable step up in terminal effects, though my choice would be the Rigby. Everything from a 300 TSX to the 450 Woodleigh.

If you're not a loader, stick with the H&H.

SOS

NY: Did not know that about the Dakota action.....curious Well, if you go 375 H&H, find a good pre 64.....................

I've never stopped a charge, so can't comment. How many do you have to stop before you reach "expert" status?

General wisdom(I hear) is that a 416 is more gun(on both ends). I have no reason to doubt that. Allen Day has used the 416 Rem in Africa...I'd talk to him.

Savuti: Yes I do reload.

Bob: Thought about a pre-64, but I've decided to build around a M-70 Classic action.

I've read Allen's posts, know he's a big fan of the .416.

I've also read articles by Boddington where he claims the .416 (in any flavor) smacks large beasties noticably harder than the 375.

I don't doubt that a 416 smacks them harder , but if a 375 is giving me headaches I'd think twice or three times before moving up to the 416 bore .

Another thought might be the 350 gr Woodlieghs in a 375 . Ray Akinson and others have claimed that they raise the 375 up a notch in stopping power , making the 375 perform more like a 416......

The headaches are no big deal...seriously.

I have read Ray's thoughts on the 350 grain bullets, does make a case for a .375.

Mule Deer

Is there any disadvantage to shooting .375 H&H ammo in a .375 Weatherby? Not "in a pinch" but as the ammo of choice for hunting?

Thank you

NY, I just made the step up to the 416 Rigby. It's definitely more recoil, even without full-house loads. I bought a Ruger RSM, which currently (but soon to be resolved) has the useless piece of black hard rubber on the butt. With 350's at around 2450 (96gr. H4350) it's got a fair bit more recoil than the 375H&H. That's 3 grains off max. My H&H is a M70 Classic which I'm picking from Roger Ferrell on Saturday, and leaving behind my 416. The Rigby is a step up in recoil for sure, but I don't think it's gonna be too much for me. The 416 Rem. is alleged to have a little less recoil, which makes sense as it uses quite a bit less powder. If you're loading full house for the Rigby, plan on at least 100 grs. per drop. For the Rem. Mag. I think it's more like 75 or 80 grs. max. I like my 416 and I know it'll be more pleasant with a decelerator, but realistically the 375 will do it all. The 416 is a better stopper, but I don't really know by what margin. I have shot quite a few 375/350gr. bullets and with max. loads, I see no recoil difference from the 300's. I push 350's (Woodleigh) at 2350+/- and the 300's (TSX) at around 2625.

David

Depending on where you hunt in Africa, some require the bigger bores. Check before going.

NY,

I've got both the 375 H&H and the .416 Rem Mag, both are M70 Classic Safari Express rifles. As for recoil, yes the .416 loaded to max with 400 grain bullets is going to give more felt recoil than max loads in the .375 using 300 grain bullets. You already knew that. The fact that you're capable of shooting the .375 without any real issues tells me that the .416 won't be a big problem for you in terms of recoil, so I'd not worry about recoil when comparing these two cartridges and get on to your real question.

I've hunted both Brown Bear in AK and DG in Africa, so I can relate to your goal of having a good rifle for either type of hunting that will get the job done decisively. I'm not professing to be an expert in hunting either Brown Bear or DG in Africa, so don't get me wrong, but in my opinion, the .375 is plenty for the big bears, but something like the .416 definitely wouldn't be a hindrance should a big brownie come boiling out of the alders. However, when it comes to DG in Africa, like buffalo and even elephants, I'd much rather have a .416 Rem or Rigby in my hands. As you say, most everyone with much experience with DG claim that the .416 hits harder than the .375, which is what you want. The other thing I've noticed is that when the PH asks you what you're shooting and you say the .416, 99% of the time they just say "Good" or "Perfect". When you answer with .375 H&H, often they immediately ask, "Which bullet?" or say something like, "We'll make sure we get you a broadside shot." IMO, that's not what I want to hear and would immediately make me start worrying. I've been there when this has happened and I've always been glad to be the guy with the .416. You also mentioned plains game, and as I'm sure you know, either the .375 or .416 is more than adequate for any plains game. Where you start debating cartridge choice is if and when you encounter a long shot, say greater than 200 yards. In this case, I think you must consider where you might be hunting. If you're hunting DG and plains game, you're most likely not going to be on the open plains where 300 yard shots and above would be more common. If you're solely hunting plains game, you probably would take a different rifle altogether, so I wouldn't sweat this detail. And if you are just hunting PG, then you can load either one with lighter bullets and have sufficiently flat trajectory. With heavy bullets, though, and out to 200 and even 300 yards, I think either the .375 or the .416 would perform just fine as long as you know your load and rifle, although I haven't personally had occasion to attempt such a shot with either of them when in the field.

Bottom line, I would and have chosen the .416 Rem. As I said, I have the .375 just because every rifleman has to have a H&H and if that is all I had, I'd use it and not worry too much. I've also got a M70 stainless in .375H&H that would be my go to rifle if and when I go back to AK for bears. But given the choice that you've presented here for a single rifle to do both, I'd go to the larger caliber and not look back. Plus, it's fun to have something over .40 cal.!
Hope this helps.
Test

Test,

Thanks for taking the time to post that. It is just the sort of critique I'm looking for. I assume you've had no pressure issues in Africa with the .416? Sticky bolt lift, that sort of thing. Do you handload the .416, or mainly use factory ammo?

Doug

Sorry, NY, I was going to address pressure in my previous post but forgot.

The pressure "issues" with the .416 are, I believe, remnants from when the cartridge was first introduced and the factory ammo that came out with it. In my personal experience with the .416 Rem. Mag, which is only about 4 years now, I have never encountered any real pressure issues, even when I knew darn well I was pushing the envelope when developing loads. For the record, my .416 has never fired a factory load simply because the price for a box of ammo is ridiculous, IMO. I have to laugh at that statement since when I decided to go with the .416 Rem, it was in part because the price of ammo for the Rigby was so ridiculous. I guess my reasoning is still somewhat sound since the price for the Rigby ammo is even more out of sight these days than the Remington!

Back to the pressure issue, loads that I put together for the .416 that were above max (slightly) never produced any sticky bolt lifts or blown primers or any such overpressure issues you might expect and this is using RL15 and IMR4064 and includes Barnes TSX, Swift A-frames, North Fork softs & solids, and even some Speer Mag Tips, either 350 or 400 grain. What I did find is that I usually saw better accuracy (smaller groups) with loads at or slightly below maximum book values, so that is what I went with for hunting. Even so, my buffalo softpoint load used a 400 grain Swift A-Frame and was chronographed at around 2450 or so, so plenty fast for this cartridge.

Because of all the pressure stories, before I left for Africa when I was at the range, I purposely laid out 6 loaded cartridges in the sun and left them there for over an hour. This was in the middle of the day during the summer on the eastern plains of Colorado, near 100�F. The rounds were hot enough (temperature) when I loaded them in the rifle that I could barely touch them. I then proceeded to fire three shots in rapid succession and saw no problems regarding extraction, bolt lift, etc. I did this again with the other 3 shells and got the same result.

While hunting in Africa at the end of August and into the 9th-10th of September it was starting to get quite hot, over 100�F during the heat of the day, and I had absolutely no problems with pressures, extraction, etc. Of course, I only fired the .416 during the heat of the day twice, and both were one shot at a time.

In the final analysis, I think you have nothing to worry about with the .416 Rem. when it comes to pressure. For some reason this issue continues to rear its head, but anyone who has used the .416 Rem. much in recent years and especially those who have loaded for it, will tell you the same thing. I think Allen Day, well respected in these circles and much more experienced in hunting Africa than I am, is on record about this as well since he uses the .416 Rem. Mag also.

I'm glad my previous post was helpful to you and am happy to try to answer any other questions you might have.

Best regards,
Test

I would not hesitate to choose the 416Rem!

Mine is built on the M70 and is fairly light and quick handling. I'm using Rem brass, RL15 and TSXs. I have no problem getting great velocity and accuracy w/ no pressure issues. The rifle is well balanced in a great handling synthetic stock which results in very manageable recoil for follow up shots. The 416Rem is a great cartridge from distance shots on medium sized game all the way up to effective stopping power on things that can hurt you.

It's not a pure stopping cartridge like a 458, but it is more flexible. I think it covers the same ground as the 375HH while adding more on the upper end.

GVA

I use both the .375 H&H and the .416 Rem, and if recoil isn't a problem, I think the .416 REM is the best all around caliber in the world...A 300 gr. bullet at 2700 or better FPS or a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS is a hard combl to argue with..and its better on the top end for dangerous game I suppose..

Ray, can you share some of your experiences with the .416 that makes it so great?

I've had all three cartridges in different rifles at different times and presently have a 375 H&H and a Lott on a customized MRC action. I built the Lott (built much as you describe as a "fighting rifle") expressly for a cape buffalo hunt and also for me, Wieland was intrumental in that choice. A handloader can string the Lott along from cast bullet squib loads to full steam stoppers. My first hundred rounds or so consisted of mid-range "45-70" loads getting used to the rifle which handles very well and, scoped, tops, out at 9.75 lbs. I presently shoot full power loads well-padded and standing at a raised bench or off-hand. While the rifle and I don't make love with each other, it is emminently doable.

That said, the 375 and the 416 Rem are very good cartridges too and frankly, I cannot see much benefit in the "improved" 375s for the same reasons JB mentioned - and I had a 375 Mashburn in a #1 I did a lot of work with in the past - and the 378 Wby scares me more than the Lott. I think too that you should, if you can, shoot the 416s and the Lott to get some perspective. The rifle you shoot, pick, or have made will have as much to do with your comfort as the cartridge in it.

Gdv

I have to disagree with you pretty vigorously on that. If I'm on the ground crawling and wantin' to puke from the headache, to me that's a big deal. Maybe you're not getting the same headache. Generally headache meds don't help me one bit, I have to go to the chiropractor to get the atlas joint re-aligned. Couple years ago I got one of those after a shot from an especially awkward position, wasn't even from a particularly heavy caliber ... I quit worrying about whether or not I was gonna die and switched to worry about why it was taking so d*mn long.

Tom

That's an allergic reaction to all the plastic.

Of the two the 416 Remington is the best choice but I think comparing the 416 Remington to the 375 H&H is like comparing a hybrid car to a Cadillac. Sure, it's good, gets the job done more efficiently and is probably the overall right thing to do but it lacks a lot of the panache of the 375. Now, given the choice between the 375 H&H and the 416 Rigby, I'd take the Rigby every day of the week and twice on Sundays. I guess I'm a bit of a throwback stuck in a 30 year old's body. The classics work so damn well that I tend to look at the new chamberings as Johnny-Come-Latelys unworthy of consideration.

It's the unabashed defiance of reason that makes Rifle Loonyism so damned much fun!